need CCD help - religion mentioned

cameragirl21 wrote: ok, so i need to enroll my godson into CCD...he's already in third grade but he started school at the age of 4 so he's only turning 8 in February and he's very small for his age...looks like a five year old so he won't be obviously older than the others, hopefully.
first of all, i want to say that Ed and i have discussed this a bit over PM so Ed, if you're reading this you've been very helpful but i hate to keep pestering you so i thought i'd ask the board and see what suggestions everyone has.
my godson's two older brothers never went to CCD or had communions and their mother does not think this is important and told me at his baptism that this is entirely my decision and thereby, by extension entirely my responsibility. nearly everyone here knows that I'm a Jew so this is a bit confusing for me and yet it's very important for me to do this right. i'm a little lost.
ok, so i'm to understand that there is no cost for this...does it matter where i enroll him? his parents are not members of any church, nor do they ever go to church, is that gonna be a problem? does he need to dress up when he goes or bring his bible or rosary or any of those things i bought him for his baptism but in all fairness, am not really sure what they're used for?
is it too late for him to start this year and have his communion this spring?
towards the end, i'm to understand that the parents have to sit with him in church as part of it and his mom refuses to go and i can't really count on his dad...i don't mind sitting with him in church but i can't take communion or participate in any way and i'm afraid he's going to stand out from the others if i'm there with him so would it be out of line for me to make some kind of arrangements with the parents of another kid in his class so that my gs could sit with them?
also, technically, since i'm not a Catholic, i was supposed to be listed as a witness, not a sponsor but my gs's mom found a church that didn't ask too many questions and thereby i'm listed as a sponsor. whenever i speak to the archdiocese they insist i'm a witness and since i see no reason to argue with them, i just go along with it. but in this case, are they going to find out i'm really a sponsor and if they do, will there by any trouble since this is technically not within the rules of the church? i'm worried this may cause problems for my godson.
is there anything else i haven't thought of that any of you can think of that i should be aware of as i go forward?
i have to do this soon because my gs's mom is getting her boobs done on the 18th of this month and she said after that she's not going to any church with me to enroll him because she'll be recovering so i have to attend to this ASAP.
my gs's mom is complaining that i'm insisting on this even though she knows i don't really believe in it...if any of you have the same question i just want to clarify that whether or not i believe in it is not the issue, i made a committment and now i have to follow thru with it.
before you ask, yes my gs has a godfather who is a practicing Catholic and no, he's no help and doesn't do anything so i'm in this by myself. he never celebrates any of these holidays with my gs and really couldn't care less if he goes to CCD or not so this really is all up to me and i'm very confused because in all honestly, i'm not prepared for all of this so i'm trying to get prepared. i'm terrified my gs will grow up to be a criminal delinquent who's in and out of jail like his older brother and i'm hoping to raise him in a different direction and hope CCD will help with that, although i'd send him regardless because that's the promise i made when i became a gm.
sorry this is so long, anyone who knows more than i do is most appreciated.

C&K*s Mommie replied: what is CCD?

cameragirl21 replied: i think it stands for Confraternation of Christian Doctrine, it's a set of classes similar to Sunday School for Catholic children.

Simplebeliever replied: ok, so i'm to understand that there is no cost for this...does it matter where i enroll him? his parents are not members of any church, nor do they ever go to church, is that gonna be a problem? does he need to dress up when he goes or bring his bible or rosary or any of those things i bought him for his baptism but in all fairness, am not really sure what they're used for?

All of the answers to these questions depend on the religion and the church. I went to ccd as a child at a strict Roman Catholic Parish. My parents had to pay a fee for my schooling and they were required to be members of the parish and attend masses regularly. Dress code is also up to the church. I never needed to bring rosery beads or a bible to ccd because those things were provided for us when needed.

is it too late for him to start this year and have his communion this spring?
towards the end, i'm to understand that the parents have to sit with him in church as part of it and his mom refuses to go and i can't really count on his dad...i don't mind sitting with him in church but i can't take communion or participate in any way and i'm afraid he's going to stand out from the others if i'm there with him so would it be out of line for me to make some kind of arrangements with the parents of another kid in his class so that my gs could sit with them?
also, technically, since i'm not a Catholic, i was supposed to be listed as a witness, not a sponsor but my gs's mom found a church that didn't ask too many questions and thereby i'm listed as a sponsor. whenever i speak to the archdiocese they insist i'm a witness and since i see no reason to argue with them, i just go along with it. but in this case, are they going to find out i'm really a sponsor and if they do, will there by any trouble since this is technically not within the rules of the
church? i'm worried this may cause problems for my godson.

Again, this depends on the Individual church. If we were referring to the church I belonged to as a child, if my parents were not members it would have caused a lot of conflict with my education.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for your reasoning behind you teaching your godson the religion he was baptised into and yet you, yourself do not understand, I commend you. I'd still like to bring up what I consider to be a critical conflict though (if I may). Each religion usually has one MAIN focus: Worship of (a) God. If you are the only person who is religious and teaching your godson about religion, God, and Jesus - how can this boy learn to develop his own relationship with God and Jesus if you, yourself (his role model) does not understand it? As I see it, that in itself will be your biggest challenge. For a person to learn and love their religion, they need to be around others who feel the same way.

Sorry my response may not be what you want to hear. Again, I think your interest in your god son and his moral upbringing should be an example for us all to learn from.

PrairieMom replied: Im not catholic, so I really don't know much about CCD, my question is, if you are Jewish, and his parents don't practice a particular religion, what made you decide he needs to follow the Catholic faith ?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Ditto. I am not Catholic, nondenominational actually (Bible/Community church). Sorry I can't help. I am also curious about Tara's question though. Why does it have to be the Catholic faith? If you don't mind answering.

cameragirl21 replied:
no, i don't mind answering this question at all.
here is the reason--as a godmother, my official title is sponsor which literally means a sponsor of the Catholic church, in other words, i'm sponsoring the Catholic church for my godson's benefit.
the oath i took was that i would raise him as a Catholic, for instance, if, God forbid, his parents were to pass away then i would become his mother and i'd promise that in the event of his parents' passing, i would promise to raise him as a Catholic.
and in normal, everyday terms, it means that his religious upbringing as a Catholic rests in my hands. if i don't raise him as a Catholic then i have gone back on my oath and promise and committment. His two older brothers' gms who didn't send them to CCD have essentially failed in the eyes of the church and have not fulfilled their duty and promise. i refuse to be like that.
in case you're wondering, in Judaism, the promise/oath you make to a person is considered more important than any promise you make to God so while most Jews will not look favorably on my becoming a gm in the Catholic church, they'd think it's wrong if i don't follow thru with it.

Simplebeliever replied:
no, i don't mind answering this question at all.
here is the reason--as a godmother, my official title is sponsor which literally means a sponsor of the Catholic church, in other words, i'm sponsoring the Catholic church for my godson's benefit.
the oath i took was that i would raise him as a Catholic, for instance, if, God forbid, his parents were to pass away then i would become his mother and i'd promise that in the event of his parents' passing, i would promise to raise him as a Catholic.
and in normal, everyday terms, it means that his religious upbringing as a Catholic rests in my hands. if i don't raise him as a Catholic then i have gone back on my oath and promise and committment. His two older brothers' gms who didn't send them to CCD have essentially failed in the eyes of the church and have not fulfilled their duty and promise. i refuse to be like that.
in case you're wondering, in Judaism, the promise/oath you make to a person is considered more important than any promise you make to God so while most Jews will not look favorably on my becoming a gm in the Catholic church, they'd think it's wrong if i don't follow thru with it.
As from what I learned, your interpretation of what the whole baptism was about is scewed. If this boy's parents had no intention to raise him and bring him up into the Catholic Church, than it is they who have broken their "oath" as you put it. If his parents were not in the picture (ei. passed away) than your role in his up-bringing would be slightly more crucial.

As I mentioned before, I was brought up Catholic. Being a grown-up I have my own religious beliefs that are different than the ones my family has. Although my family would have loved for me to have my daughter baptised, she is not because my husband and I do not believe in enforcing a religion upon her that we, ourselves do not follow. She does have unofficial god parents who help in her up-bringing and would care for her if my husband and I were to die.

Sorry. I just realized it almost seemed like I was debating what you are trying to accomplish and I'm not. Infact, I'm very impressed at your commitment.

My suggestion would be for you to make some appointments with the different Churches and parishes that you are considering. Some may not be very helpful or tolerant of your g son's situation and others may welcome your g son (and you) with open arms. Obviously you'd be best to enroll your g son in a parish that is welcoming and understanding. GL w/ it! You're an awesome role model!

amymom replied:

I totally agree and would like to say more, but I have not time. But this IMO is the way to go. And I commend you in attempting to keep a committment you feel you made.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: To be honest Jennifer... and I hope I don't offend - take this as a friend...

His mom doesn't really care. She said she wasn't going to go, and you can't count on his dad. His older siblings didn't do it. You don't understand it.

Why are you bothering?

What I mean to say is that is it really worth the trouble? I know that for "us", having our children have godparents, to us, means more that they are the people I chose to raise my children if something should happen to us. They are the people I believe most to be like me and would raise my children with the values and morals I find to be most important. To be honest, I think the child would probably be better off not dragged into it, especially if the siblings weren't/aren't involved, and the parents aren't going to involve themselves. And, it would make it even more awkward if you were the one to do it - no offense to you or your faith, but it would be a little wierd all around, no? I hope that comment didn't offend... I don't mean it in a bad way - I know that I would certainly ask myself questions if a Jewish person would bring a child to be taught cateshism, and even more so if that jewish person would make arrangements with me to bring their charge as well as my own. KWIM?

So my advice... don't bother with it.



ETA - I read the other posts after O posted this one - so I get it about you don't want to "fail"... however there are different types and "degrees" of catholics... I am catholic... but I don't attend church regularly, don't go to sunday school and never did... I think you should do what you think is best...and don't push the issues with his parents though, they may end up resenting you for "butting in". After all, they're still the parents... and if they don't think something is important for their child, you should respect that....it wouldn't mean that you fail - but more that you'd be doing your gm duties at the family's "degree" of catholicism... sorry i'm probably not making myself clear...

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I have not ever heard of a Catholic Parish that would offer CCD classes to a child who does not attend or who's parents or godparent does not attend. Was he baptised in a local parish? I have only ever known of children going through CCD that are part of a practicing Catholic family Here is a site that may help-it has all of the 'offical' stances and rules of the Church...I did not read the whole page but this is the link to Godparents roles especially maybe it can shed some light on your questions for you or point you in the right direction

The role of Godparents

coasterqueen replied: Jennifer,

I can't answer most of these questions as I'm just a modified version of Catholic...Lutheran. Lutherans do take "confirmation" classes and communion. I was baptized into the Lutheran church later in life so I didn't have to go through the classes. When I would attend DH's church before being baptized I would refuse communion even though they allowed you to take it. I just didn't feel right, but I did go up and get blessed. I think it would be fine for you to be there with him and not take communion yourself. I don't see where he would really stand out in the crowd. I think it would be great for him to see you there. He is going to have to understand at some point, if he already doesn't that you are of a different faith and that it's ok for people to believe in different things and still be there for each other. Otherwise eventually I think he's going to feel uncomfortable about the whole thing, kwim? I don't know if Catholics allow you to be blessed and not take communion? If so do that.

I think it's a wonderful thing that you are honoring your responsibility even though you are not of that faith. I see no need to question why you are doing it even if the mother does not care. You made a promise therefore you plan to keep it. A lot of godparents do not. I admire you for what you are doing.

cameragirl21 replied:
Thank you, Karen, i really appreciate your saying and feeling that. that's kind of the point IMO--it's not about what i believe or what his parents believe, it's about honoring a committment i made. maybe i didn't know what i was getting into when i made the committment but that's beside the point too, now there is something that needs to be done and it's up to me to make sure it get's done. that's all there is to it, really.

mom21kid2dogs replied:
Actually, this is only true if the parent's will reflects that you will be his legal guardian (guardian of his person) in the event of their death. Baptism is a religious ceremony and you are correct~you are considered a guardian of his faith life in the event of his parent's death. You would only be his legal guardian if the parents have named you to be one or a court deems you to be one. This issue is often confusing to people but one (guardian of person) is a legal matter, the other (guardian of the faith) is a religious commitment. Liken the situation to marriage and divorce~the tenents are the same.

I am lifelong practicing Catholic. My daughter's godparents are not married to one another~one is my sister in law and one is my brother. We choose them because they were both practicing Catholics and that was most important to us for that particular ceremony. However, neither were named as our first choice for her legal guardian, although my brother and his wife (Olivia's godfather) are secondary guardians.

To answer your CCD question, I think you can only get the answer through the CCD program at your godson's parish. Most parish bulletins contain either a religious education director or CCD director on their directory. In our parish, he likely would not be able to recieve his First Holy Communion (held in the spring) if he signed up this late (classes started in September). This is, however, a rite that takes place every year in the Catholic church and children of numerous ages recieve the Sacrament, not just second graders. (The "typical" age for First Holy Communion). In addition, if he recieved proper instruction in a format other than CCD (I don't know if other resources exist like a video series or other instructional material) a parish priest can administer this Sacrament in a ceremony that includes only him. He does, however, need to be a Catholic "in good standing" of the church~meaning he must be attending Mass and recieving religious instruction (CCD is the primary format for this if a child is not attending a Catholic school) to recieve any Sacrament in the Catholic church.

You are certainly to be commended for trying to be a good custodian of his faith life.

CantWait replied: I think everyone has pretty much answered so far. Does your Godson go to a catholic school? Many times (as when I was growing up), if you go to a catholic school, the classes needed for communion and confirmation are already given. Just something worth looking into.

I'm glad you take such a responsibility and active role in his life. Robbie's Godmom hasn't seen or so much as spoken to him since he was a toddler.

Anthony has yet to be baptised, and probably won't be at this point, although I know who I would name as Godparents, and I know they would be there for him.

jcc64 replied: Well, Jenn, I totally respect your desire to fulfull your responsibilities as a gm. However, I think you are adhering to a very strict interpretation of what the parents originally intended by naming you gm. That is- I think they, as many people do, saw it as more of an understudy kind of a role- someone ready to step in and provide the same or similiar kind of upbringing they had in the unlikely event of both parents passing. If religion is not an intrinsic, critical part of their home lives with their parents, I don't expect attendance at a CCD class will change all that much for the child. I realize that the Catholic church sees it differently, but the Catholic church promotes alot of lifestyle ideas that are not necessarily in step with the lives that this family and others are leading. I would see my role as gm as more of a supporting one- following the lead of the parents. If they do not see religion as a priority, it is not your prerogative to make a different decision for their child, kwim? I am not sure why they went through the whole process of naming a gm if they aren't observant Catholics, but, whatever, some people just go through the motions without really thinking about what they're doing.
Not sure anything i said was in any way helpful, but these are my thoughts...

cameragirl21 replied: Jeanne, i totally get what you're saying but the thing is that they made me the official gm in a ceremony at the church...they wouldn't have baptised my gs as a Catholic without my being there so at this point it is a matter of how the church interprets it and i have a major issue with going back on any committment i made.
also, my gs's mom acknowledges that if he doesn't go to CCD and get his communion then i'll have failed as a gm but she doesn't care and doesn't understand why i care, kwim? her outlook is that i don't believe in the church anyway so why do i care if they feel i've failed, kwim?
my outlook is that i made a promise and now i have to keep it. i don't care if the church thinks i'm a horrible person, what i do care is that i stand by a promise i made and when you take gm classes and go to the baptism they ask if you're willing to take on the responsibility and if you understand the responsibility...at least they asked me.
it's very hard for me to go back on a promise, especially when it's really not all that hard to fulfill it.
my gs's mom is not against his going to CCD, she just doesn't want it to inconvenience her life and feels that since i'm the gm i should be the one inconvenienced by it, which would be fine if i knew how to go about this.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Jen, even though I do see everyone else's points, I have to say I think this boy will be blessed in the long run. I'm not Catholic, but this may be the only way this boy will be exposed to God, and I think, as sad as that is, that it's also wonderful. Just my last two cents.

cameragirl21 replied:
thanks, Jennie, that's very nice of you to say. I am certainly doing my best which is why i figured this may be a good place to seek some guidance on how to approach this.

redchief replied: First off, please accept my apologies for not answering sooner, Jennifer. Your question was deserving of a more timely response. Unfortunately I've been dealing with two serious computer failures, this one being the worst of the two, for the last several days. In retrospect I'm guiltily glad of the extra time I've had to consider your concerns, as I've had some time to consider my answers.

First and foremost, I would be remiss if I didn't ensure you that you have no real obligation to make certain your godson is educated in a religious education program. This can't be expected of you considering your non-catholic status. Look at it this way, a young man trains his entire life to be a train engineer. He does well in school and although he doesn't always rack up A's in his train engineer classes, he does well and learns and becomes more than adept at train engineering. He is noticed by a transport company and is hired to train newcomers. The adept engineer accepts the job enthusiastically until he arrives to begin training the new engineers. Apparently his new bosses were ill-informed that his engineering expertise was in trains, and they expected him to teach incoming ship engineers. While the product being moved was similar, the vehicles being used were totally different the adept train engineer found he was ill-prepared to train shipping engineers how to move product by boat. You are ill-equipped to train your godson in the Catholic Faith.

As I told you privately, I see no way for you to be seriously expected to follow through on your baptismal commitment to ensure your godson's catholic education. Without parental cooperation and involvement I believe you have committed yourself to an insurmountable task. I do not say this lightly. None of my children have more than a single godparent, with each child having a witness also. I could not, would not, expect my children's non-catholic witnesses to take on the task of educating my kids in the faith. Further, I know what it's like to continue in the faith despite having parents who are not practicing. My mother hasn't practiced the faith since I was a small child, and my dad is protestant. The only thing that kept me in the faith to high school was that I was enrolled in catholic primary school. This may be your best option; get your godson into a catholic school. It's the only way he'll get enough faith instruction for any of it to make sense. The only other solution I see for this is to find a way to bring your godson's parents back to the Church. Without their support and home instruction, your godson will not take it seriously. I would almost rather you took him to Jewish services. At least he would be getting some moral base, and you'd be able to answer critical questions he is bound to have regarding matters of faith.

Religious education happens in the home more than elsewhere. It is where moral foundations are laid and where basic tenets are taught. Without constant home involvement, I fear that getting your godson to Confirmation will be next to impossible. I would not want to be in your shoes in this, and I'm an experienced religious education instructor.

amymom replied: Oh my goodness! Ed you say things so well. I have been thinking and mulling this over for days, tonight I am meeting with my parish priest (about other matters) and intend to ask him about this. I told Jennifer I would get back to her tonight, but really Ed you are very good. I too am a trained instructor for Catholic Religious Education and would find the task that Jennifer has given herself overwhelming. However, that being said, I think it is doable AND without support in the home it is difficult. I have 18 students this year 4th & 5th graders and the majority do not get it reinforced at home it is tough to teach religion of any kind when something different is done at home.

More later but I had to comment on Ed's response.

redchief replied: As Anne Marie said, Jennifer, what you feel a commitment to carry through on is not impossible, but the undertaking will be monumental to say the least. As Anne Marie said, we both have many parents who simply don't reinforce the faith in the home at all. These students (I teach 16 eighth graders) are among our biggest challenges. They don't do their homework and don't care to. They generally get poor grades and show little understanding of what is expected of them as Catholics. It's difficult to relate to something that is not lived.

I suppose I should have added that if you are absolutely going to try to get this boy some religious education, I would definitely speak with the director of religious education at the godson's home parish. That person would be best equipped to advise you as to whether or not their program might be able to handle such a challenge.