kids using FB to say bad things about teachers - on the news

boyohboyohboy wrote: I think it was fox I was watching tonight that showed where a child, appeared to be a "tween" was upset with his teacher to he started a FB page to bash her. So the school suspended him.
Now I was thinking to myself if a kid was upset with my son, and did this to him, started a FB page that made fun of him for all to see, I would be upset..however, I think other then speak to the child and his parents I dont think I would take it any further..
I am thinking that this teacher is an adult, and the kid did this on his own laptop, in his own house, on his own time..how does the school have the right to punish him?
now I think its for his parents to punish him, I dont think he shouldnt get into trouble, but isnt this just free speech really?

Do you think the school has a right to intervene?

bluebear replied: This has happened MANY times at my high school- the school considers it a threat to the teacher. I remember maybe 2 years ago someone made a group saying "I hate Mr. S" or something like that, and the kid got ISS for a few days and the group was deleted. Our school does yearbook senior superlative voting, and there was a group for that. One girl kept getting talked about horribly for the catagory "most likely to live at home forever" and the school called down the creator of the group (even though she didn't make those postings) and told her to delete it because of the girl being talked about.
It's used for both good and bad things, I guess!

msoulz replied: I don't think the school should be able to discipline the kid. If they consider it a threat then get the authorities involved. If one of my kids does this they will face consequences at home for sure.

DVFlyer replied: Didn't see the page but heard the very basics about this story.

Unless there were specific threats etc, the school or authorities should not be involved.

Now the parents on the other hand....

MommyToAshley replied: Unless there were slanderous remarks or threats made, I am not sure how the school or teacher can take disciplinary action. If the remarks were threatening, then I am sure the school could and should take legal action.

Schools are really starting to overstep their boundaries. A friend of mine has to sign a code of conduct for how her child will behave outside of school and how many times they will go to Church. I believe it is important to teach your child to act a certain way regardless of where they are, but I would NOT be willing to sign something from the school dictating how I raise my daughter. That's my job, not the school's.

Did you hear about the case where the kids were assigned laptops from the school, but they found out that the school had covert cameras when a child was disciplined at school for what he had done at home... CRAZY! There's a class-action lawsuit against the school, and rightly so.

Here's the link:
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/schoo...ed-student.html

PrairieMom replied: Its called Cyber bullying.
I don't think that there needs to be a specific threat, just being mean and nasty can be bad enough.
I suppose if a note home to the parents doesn't fix it, then IMO the school / teacher should go straight to the authorities, and let them take care of it.

stella6979 replied:
I absolutely agree.

MommyToAshley replied:
Do you really consider a kid saying that they don't like a teacher to be cyber bullying? If there was harassment, slanderous remarks, or threats made, I could see that as cyber bullying. But, I don't think that a kid blowing off steam on his facebook page because he doesn't like something the teacher does should be considered cyber bullying. I remember complaining to my friends about teachers when I was in high school.. this is the same thing, just in a new format. Kids will just have to learn that in today's world, what they say and do online is a permanent record... not the same as whispering it in your bff's ear.

PrairieMom replied:
no, but if a child is on their facebook saying things like Mrs so and so is ugly, and no one likes her, she stinks, and stuff like that repeatedly, then yeah. Basically, If its something that I would read about myself that would hurt me, then I would consider it bullying.

PrairieMom replied:
I don't agree. A whisper in an ear goes out to one or two people then stops.
A public post goes out to hundreds, where others can jump onto the band wagon and create a snow ball effect, that will only get bigger and bigger.

MommyToAshley replied:
Most people have their facebook pages set so that only friends can view them. Therefore, I suppose it comes down to what was said and what the intent was.

My point was that verbalizing it to a friend when I was growing up is probably equivalent to writing it on a facebook page today. My nieces are teens and they will stand right next to each other with their thumbs texting away on each other's facebook instead of turning around and saying it to the other person. The world today with the new social media rave is different than when we were growing up. Technology has it's advantages, but it also has it's disadvantages... in this case, every mistake made is a permanent record and kids these days will have to realize that. The world where Marsha Brady draws a not-so-flattering picture of the teacher and can throw away the paper is gone (Remember that episode?). We all know that it is hard for a teen to think past the next hour let alone how it will affect their future.

Now, that doesn't mean that social media should be used for bullying or slander, and I said that in my original post that if this was the case then the school should have course for legal action. And, even if it were not to the level that required legal action, my child would definitely be disciplined and we'd have a discussion on the right way to handle the situation. What the kid did was wrong, I am just not convinced that it was the school's place to intervene. But, I say that without knowing all the details.

mom21kid2dogs replied:
Although this is largely true for adults it's simply is not the case with kids. They are very unguarded in all ways on social mediums. It's part of the reason it's pedophilia heaven out there. It doesn't seem to matter how much adults seem to preach protection~they think they are infallible~much like we did.

Cyber bullying goes both ways, IMO. I've seen authorities get involved highly, especially after kids commit suicide after particularly nasty cyber bullying. I expect adults should be afforded protection as well.

MommyToAshley replied: Interesting discussion.

PrairieMom replied:
I Don't think that children are so good about internet securities like that. , and even if they do have it set so only friends can see it, these kids have tons and tons of "friends" . I have a few cousins that are my FB friends who are in middle school and high school, and they have 300+ friends. I have even seen someone with 500 friends.

I think that what really needs to be done is education. Bullying starts early, and I think that Cyber bullying needs to be included in that education, so that these kids learn the consequences to their actions. Same with sexting issues with kids in HS. It seems so innocent, everyone is doing it, but these kids need to be taught that sending pics over phones can be considered child porn.

DVFlyer replied: Where does the First Amendment fit into this discussion?

As I thought about this more, if the school has a code of ethics that the students don't follow, then the school can discipline the student.... assuming the behavior occurs on school grounds or during school functions.

Otherwise, it's just someone exercising free speech.

Sorry if it hurts someone's feelings, but if hurting feelings was against the law, no one could say anything bad about anyone... *cough* talking bad about Obama *cough*

PrairieMom replied:
but where does one's right to free speech cross the line? the victem also has rights.
You can have free speech, but kids need to be taught to be resppnsible with it.

coasterqueen replied:
I tend to agree with you. The news reports out there of kids committing suicide over things like this is just so tragic. It's, IMO, avoidable. Kids, especially girls, can be downright nasty and cruel - most or all of us have been there in high school. I can't even imagine being in school, the way the girls were, and them having the forums they do these days to spread rumors true or not, etc. There needs to be some protection for ALL of us against these types of things. I'm just not sure how we go about it.

coasterqueen replied:
You do make a good point. It's a catch 22 for me. I see right and wrong on both sides.

DVFlyer replied:
Yes, but it didn't happen during school (as far as I know). Therefore it has nothing to do with the school.

Punish the parents if it comes to it.

The school can teach the idea of Free Speech and the responsibility behind it. If a child yells fire in a crowded theater during summer break, they should be punished by the appropriate authority at that point, but not the school.

DVFlyer replied:
If the child were to say nasty things to a teacher - in person- he happened to see on the street on a saturday, it would just be two people talking. Not a teacher/ student.

Now the teacher could contact the parent, but there should be no official discipline by the school. It's up to the parent at that point.

DVFlyer replied: To be clear, "bullying" is one thing. Saying "i'm going to kill you" or "I'm going to kill myself" are different.

You can have an argument with your neighbor and tell them you think they are a piece of garbage. But if you or they say, "I"m going to kill you", they go to jail.

Ask me how I know.

kimberley replied: i found a group on fb about the guidance counsellor at the kids' school. they called him a pedophile and i did bring this to the school's attention and the page was removed and the kids recanted. they were ex-students who had problems and "bandwagoned" with the creator because they hated being "the weird kids". that is slander imho and should be punishable.


i just had this convo with my 13yo son recently. he was debating whether to make a post saying one of his friends likes a girl (which is not public knowledge) because his friend made a comment at school alluding to who my son likes. i don't think it was intentional on the friend's part and my son's post would have malicious imho. i warned him that once something is out there on the net... you can't take it back. and if he wants to strike first, he had better be prepared for much worse in return. to me, it's equivalent to throwing the first punch. he seemed to get the message.

DVFlyer replied:
Definitely punishable.

So who should do the punishing?

Good "first punch" analogy.

kimberley replied: good question. i'd have to say the parents should do the punishing but in this situation... where the heck was the parental supervision when these kids were online starting this group in the first place?? like any child welfare issue, the school may have no choice but to intervene if parents refuse to monitor the kids' online behavior.

our only pc that's online is in a main area and i watch where they go online. the computer is off and pw protected when i am not here. i set up my son's fb account and monitor it frequently. i feel this is my responsibility if i am going to let him online. i can tell most of his friends (especially the girls! ) are not monitored at all! it will likely take a tragedy for some of these parents to wake up.

boyohboyohboy replied:
I agree,

Its a different time, but kids do say mean things, and does it matter really if its 10 kids or 100 kids who hear the mean thing if you are the victim?
I dont think because the forum has changed that the punishment should change.
If this wasnt done on school grounds or school property then the teacher maybe should take it up personally with the family and the kid.
I am sure most parents would make the kid take it down.
But to involve the police or the school, unless it did threaten bodily harm seems to drastic.

I know if it were my kid who was the victim it would be difficult to not feel hurt and want to do all I could to get rid of it and make my son feel better..but again, if we start censoring, it wont stop here...

luvbug00 replied: ehh i have mixed emotions of the boundries of schools. In this instance i see how they dont want a whole page dedicated to the teacher but a status update would be more approprite to say " my teacher doesnt thrill me" ya know?

PrairieMom replied: I believe that words can damage as well, and that there doesn't need to be a direct personal threat. people have been driven to suicide over cyber bullying, I think that it can be a really big deal. IMO, it would depend on the exact case and what was being said as to who should punish, and what punishment would be appropriate.

Harassment is illegal too.

If some kid made a FB page about my kid, and was saying horrible hurtful things about them , you better believe I would expect something to be done about it, if not by the parents, then the school. And if need be, then the proper authorities. There are laws against this.

luvbug00 replied: i wonder what possition facebook would take on this. If the would block members who bully and such..??

coasterqueen replied:
I agree totally. I don't think the school should have anything to do with something not on school time, but something should be done.

DVFlyer replied:
Yup.

But the question is whether or not the school has the authority or jurisdiction to apply the punishment.

DVFlyer replied: BTW- with regards to posting "untrue" things on FB.... That would be called Libel, not slander.

Slander is if you use your mouth. Libel is if you put those "untrue"* things in print.

*calling someone a Pedophile is perfectly fine if it is true.

PrairieMom replied:
ok, but what if it happens off school grounds, but interferes with the teachers ability to do their jobs?

DVFlyer replied:

Then the teacher (person) calls the police and the police decide whether any laws have been broken and they take care of it.

Or the teacher (person) contacts the parents and deals with it that way.

In reality, what would happen is the student would start to treat the teacher differently in class, the teacher would start to treat the student differently in class and then thing would escalate resulting in a school issue or the student will grow tired of the games they are playing and move on to something/ someone else.

In other words, what if I, a non-student with no connection to a particular school, interfered with a teacher being able to do their job? Would the teacher call the school to have them take care of it? Maybe. But, depending on the issue, the police would be the more appropriate choice.

jcc64 replied:

For real, Dee Dee? I'm assuming this must be a private school--otherwise the ACLU would have been in there in the blink of an eye.
Schools do seem to reach beyond the boundaries of the building with increasing frequency. My kids have to sign an athletic code of conduct which stipulates that their behavior outside of school can have repercussions on their sports careers. The star pitcher on my ds' varsity baseball team got busted with a little bit of weed on a weekend, off school property, on his own time, and was thrown off the team. Other kids got caught at an underage drinking party, also outside of school, and were thrown off the football team. I personally feel what happens outside of school is the jurisdiction of parents and the law, not the school.
Having said that, I also understand that schools are under intense pressure to protect kids from bullying in all of its forms, and much of that bullying occurs outside of the classroom. What makes this story interesting is that the victim is a staff member rather than a child. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, tbh. Part of me feels, like Dee Dee, that this is the digital age version of the silly rumors we used to pass around about our teachers. But, as others have pointed out, kids including my own, seem incredibly reckless about what they commit to print on the net, and don't really understand the far-reaching implications of their language, both on themselves and others. It really is an interesting problem, but I'm not sure a lawsuit is the way to work it out. Then again, that's the American way, isn't it?

MommyToAshley replied: Yes, it was a private school (not the one Ashley goes to).

And, Jeanne, I agree with everything you said. I do actually see both sides of the story. And, I think that we as a society are going to have to come up with a whole new set of rules when it comes to the internet. We haven't done such a great job regulating it so far in any area (ie gambling, pornography, cyberbullying, etc).

PrairieMom replied: I'm shocked that you guys are surpirsed at kids having to sign a code of conduct for school. I had to for Band, and DH had to for debate team, ( different school, different state) I don't really look at it as schools undermining our parenting, more as incentive for the kids to stay out of trouble so they don't get kicked out of the activities they love to do.

As for the FB thing, I find the whole discussion really interesting. I am meeting with a whole ton of teachers from different states this weekend, and I am going to ask them about what their schools policies are on it. I would be interested to know.

My2Beauties replied: Interesting convo, I'm really not sure where I stand on it because I can see both sides. I'm so glad my kids are still young and do not use the computer! Hanna does at school but just to take reading tests on and to use an art program, she does not know what the internet is and I hope to keep it that way for a while. This world is a scary place!

coasterqueen replied:
I'm the same way. My kids only get on at school and at home only to get on webkinz, which is once in every great moon. They are still young enough that they can do games and such on their DS as well as actual board games. Remember those? I think some kids these days don't even know what they are. We do many educational games at home that we don't need the computer for, or I print the stuff off and give it to them to do. They know of the internet, but not how to maneuver on there and such. They have enough time to explore it when they are much much older - they don't need to at this age. BUT I assume this will be a problem, obviously, for when they are older. sigh.

MommyToAshley replied: I don't think the problems we are talking about now are problems at this age unless you let your child use the computer unsupervised. Ashley uses the internet but would never be allowed to use facebook, or any other site that had the ability to text or leave messages. Webkinz is different as they have to select from pre-determined messages. I think facebook and other social media is becoming an issue with older kids as I don't know anyone Ashley's age that has a facebook account. I'm not saying they don't, I just don't know anyone her age that does.

coasterqueen replied:
Oh I think your right, but it won't be too long, trust me, before our kids WILL be doing that. I have a 12 yr old neice on facebook and she doesn't have hers protected and the things she says out there. WOW! So it's not too far off ETA: Although parent supervision is key, but doesn't mean those kids that our kids know have parents who do supervise them.

MommyToAshley replied:
You're right, not everyone parents the same way. And, personally, I think 12 is too young to have a facebook page.

PrairieMom replied:
Thats no lie. Ben is in 1st grade and already has a basic knowledge of how to surf the net even tho he has never done it at home. He is picking up things from his friends at school, and now that he can read and spell, if he was left alone with a computer to navigate the internet he could do pretty well.
He is always asking us if we can let him go to www. what ever he is into at the time .com.
and telling us about the sites his friends go to.
they have open computer time at school where they can go to a few different sites, and has already figured out that some sites are blocked. So, it will come very very fast.

jcc64 replied:

See, the way I look at is, very few kids get through high school w/o making a whole lot of poor decisions/mistakes, and I honestly don't believe the vast majority have the self control or maturity to avoid making them simply b/c they signed a piece of paper they probably didn't bother to read in the first place. Kids who play sports or participate in other extracurricular activities are choosing to commit themselves to healthy activities, but that doesn't make them monks, and I believe taking these things away from them will only exacerbate the bad behavior the school is trying to prevent, kwim? Anyway, this is a little off the original topic, but it's something that's come up more than once around here.
And as far as Facebook is concerned, all I can say is, enjoy the control you have over your kids' online lives while they're young. It gets exponentially more complicated the older they get, believe me. And you may think you're on top of everything, but trust me, they will always find a way around whatever roadblocks you throw up for them. I hate to sound so fatalistic, but I'm just telling you all how it's been for my friends and me with our tech savvy teenagers.

raven092177 replied: personally i don't think it was any of the school's buisness at all to punish the child. if it what the child was saying/posting was slanderous or threatening then the teacher should go to the police not the school. if it was just a matter of the kid blowing off some steam then get over it. sorry if that hurts people's feelings but guess what not everyone is required to like everyone else, that includes students likeing or not likeing teachers.