Woman kicked off plane for breastfeeding - (sorry if this is already posted)

Ellie wrote: I didn't see a topic on it.




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,229390,00.html

mom21kid2dogs replied: I saw that in the paper yesterday. Geeze louise!

3_call_me_mama replied: AWW the wonderful ways VT makes the headlines....
It disgusts me really... I truly hope she wins the fight with the airline and is compensated greatly!

C&K*s Mommie replied:

Gimme a break! There is no need to say much over this, because it is completely ludicrous. She is perfectly within reason to do what she needed to do, and nothing more should have come up over this, especially being kicked off a plane.

grapfruit replied: You know I don't understand people. What part of breast feeding a baby is disturbing?? If people think it is disturbing or "gross" maybe they need to reevaluate where their thoughts are. Grow up people! (not you people, people who...oh never mind, you get it! )

Ellie replied: She handled better than I would have. I would have probably been escorted off by security after yelling at the flight attendant.

kristy-n-chad replied: They say to nurse babies on planes, bc of the whole ear-popping thing, don't they? I'm surprised at this, Vt is so liberal.

Ellie replied:
yes, they do. That's exactly what I thought of when I read the article.

redplaydoh replied: Ridiculous! BFing is so natural, and if the baby is latched on you don't "see" anything.

TheOaf66 replied: gotta love stories like that, kicking them off the plane was a bit drastic and although I am against unnecessary lawsuits, I think they should get a free flight anywhere they travel as a settlement, but don't tie up the courts with it.

Boo&BugsMom replied: There are just a few things I need to let out, but please NOBODY take them the wrong way. One part of me is totally apauled at the airline. It's pretty pety of them and quite ridiculous. BF is natural, period. On the other hand, is it really much to ask someone to cover up while doing it though, regardless the age of the child? Maybe I'm just not offended by certain things that really aren't much to ask for and if I was asked I wouldn't be offended. I think people get offended by things too easily now a days, to be honest. There are other things much worse to get offended over if you ask me.

3_call_me_mama replied:
Unfortunately VT doesnt' make this decision.. or kick her off the plane. That would be the ignorant airline (DLETA) and their attendant. There is a HUGH discussion about this on another family board that I frequent and everyone is writing letters to DELTA in support of the mom and against their policy. APPARENTLY Delta has a policy that allows the airline attendant to kick people off at their discretion..
As someoen else said I would have been dragged off kickign and screaming by security and the entire airport and city would have heard me ! LOL
ALSO i think (form discussions with people in teh area) that the attendants issue was that it waqs a child (22 months ) that was nursing, not a baby. And it bothered her. (According to friends that work at teh airport in Burlington who have spoken with teh attendant>) Who knows But either way the attendant and airline are wrong IMO> BTW VT (not sure about other states) has a legal right to nurse your child anywhere and everywhere you see fit. It doesn't even say tha tyou have to be discreet or cover up or anything. Also there is no age limit on teh child either....
irks me that a company thinks their policy can override state law and basic human right.... Maybe that attendant should eat her lunch with a blanket over her head!!

ETA: Accordingto teh mother NO part of her breast was showing, so isnt' that considered covered?? Or must a woman physically wear something over hersefl to draw even more attention to herself while feeding her child. AND as a mother tha thas reastfed 3 infants until toddlerhood when they stopped on their own, it is near impossibel to keep a toddler or even a baby in some cases, covered with a blanket while they eat. 1 reason is they are curious and want to be able to see out. another is that it is VERY hot under a blanket which adds to the extra body heat exchaged during nursing. and also most mothers look into their child's eys while they feed them. It's part of the bond of breastfeeding.

mom2my2cuties replied:
I agree - this was my first thought - How hard would it have been to take the blanket and throw it over her shoulder for a few seconds. Whole problem avoided. I can understand why the Flight Attendant asked her to cover up. Not saying that it is necessary, but I don't know, as a common curteousy to those around me, I always covered up when nursing the baby.

cameragirl21 replied: i totally think it was wrong to kick her off the plane but i also don't understand why she didn't just cover up with the blanket, problem solved.

Ellie replied: I doubt a 22 month old baby would let itself be covered with a blanket.

The flight attendant should have covered her head with a blanket.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That's when it's time for the parent to be the parent and say "no drink if you don't do it". Plain and simple. A 22 month old child can understand those words.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I can understand covering with a blanket, I covered up when I nursed in public, but less to be discreet and more to avoid showing the "rolls" that I have underneath my clothes, since I did not use nursing shirts or anything like that. However, there is alot of fumbling with using a blanket and keeping it on, keeping a baby postioned correctly, not to mention it is VERY hot.

For me she was not being blatant with it, she was sitting in the back row nearest a window with her husband as the semi-shield from passerbys. If women can have every part of their breast exposed in public with the exception of the nipple (hence pasties) why would nursing without a blanket be any different? The nipple is not shown while nursing, but any other part of the breast is, but it is no more than when wearing a bikini top.

cameragirl21 replied: it's a tough call, Nicole. Certainly there was no need to remove them from the airplane but the way i see it, when we're in a public place, we often have to comply with rules that do not seem fair or sensible to us and that are an inconvenience both to adults and children.
For example, I like to walk around my house in my bra and undies, that is how I'm most comfortable but when i go to other people's homes, i don't have that luxury because i am not in my own domain and thereby have to comply with the rules of others.
my issue here is not so much about the breastfeeding but rather at how this could have so easily been avoided...they didn't tell her she couldn't nurse (and if they had THAT would have made me very angry) they just asked her to cover up and while she felt she was covered enough, apparently those who makes the rules didn't. why cause a commotion that led to them getting removed from the plane and thereby ruining their plans when all they had to do was cover the baby with a blanket. it may be hot, inconvenient and less comfortable but isn't that what a large part of life is all about?
i've lost count of how many times in life i've had to be hot, inconvenienced and less comfortable from when i was a little girl to today but such is life IMO.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I don't want a blanket on my head when I am eating and yes it gets very hot for the child under there...besides with the size of a 2 year old I doubt very much of her breast was showing and if you get that easily offended how do you even walk around in public? It also says she was at the back of the plane in the inside seat-I doubt anyone else even knew she was nursing!

CantWait replied: That, for me, would spell LAWSUIT

TANNER'S MOM replied: I think we have made breast so sexual. This has nothing to do with a baby eating it has to do with people making breast sexual at the same time a baby was eating. To me it's so dumb.

I have a children of all ages and they have seen babies eating..and would never think twice about it. If they look then we talk cause there is no reason to hide. It's how they ate.. and it's how I ate for a while.

To me it's wrong to ask the mother to hide something that is natural. Don't we all have breasts? Isn't natural and peaceful to see a Mom breastfeeding. When I see one I think Aww not ewww..

I think it's more about our own insecurity's then that of the mother and the child. And I mean to be honest I am a big chested woman and I have wore shirts low enough to show off my best feature that I think a child breastfeeding might have covered more..lol

coasterqueen replied: You have got to be kidding me? Cover up to avoid the situation? Seriously? If child was nursing what would have been showing what? Nipple - um no, baby is nursing. So that leaves a bit of cleavage showing, right? Ok, so NO woman should ever wear a low cut shirt, a bikini or tankini or any shirt remotely showing even a tiny speck of flesh and we ALL should wear turtlenecks. SERIOUSLY!

It just appalls me that anyone could have an issue with this, but I guess I grew up in a different time then the masses of this world. Which only reiterates that I must be a freak of nature.

Again, I'm taking a stand here that NO woman should be allowed to wear any shirt that shows even the slightest bit of breast as it would be NO different than a woman nursing a baby discreetly w/o a blanket. I'd tell that airline lady to get out her turtleneck before spouting off being uncomfortable seeing a woman's cleavage. I'm assuming she has an issue with it because #1 she's probably never breastfed a baby or #2 she breastfed one but either was never comfortable with her own body or she never mastered the art of NIP discreetly w/o a blanket.

Let me ask those who think she should have just taken the blanket and avoided conflict...why didn't the airline woman just turned her head, stop staring at the woman's breast (cleavage showing because again, nipple would not be showing) and avoided conflict herself? Seems to me she was the childish one about, but that is just my personal opinion. I mean if a woman is showing a bit too much cleavage wearing a low cut shirt or wearing a skirt that shows too much bum are you really staring? Because I would think you would have to be for it to be bothering you, right?

TANNER'S MOM replied:
And let your child be miserable for a flight? Why everyone knows how hard it is to travel with a baby anyway..

IMO and it's just mine.. why should the child suffer for society. In other countries this would not be an issure.

MyLuvBugs replied: Holy WOW!!!! I breastfeed Lexi on our trip to Phoenix when she was a month old and NEVER had a complaint! And we were in first class! Unbelievable!

MyLuvBugs replied:
I'm right there with ya!

jcc64 replied: Thank you, Karen. I was going to say the same thing about the blanket comments. If the sight of a bf mother and child is so disturbing and/or repulsive, there are many other places to direct your gaze. And no, it's NOT the same thing as walking around your house in a bra and undies- that is a clothing choice- bf is life giving, essential sustenance. This country is so puritanical it makes me want to barf.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I like how you worded this Jennifer and I agree with you.

cameragirl21 replied: Karen, i really didn't mean for you (or anyone) to get all upset about this, i was just stating my opinion and btw, i'm glad you're back, haven't seen you in a while and was wondering how you were.
as for what i said, my outlook is simply that when we're in public or in someone else's domain we have to follow their rules even if we don't like them.
for example as an asthmatic, i hate when i'm in public and people are smoking around me, i can smell a cigarette from a mile away because i'm so sensitive to it but when i'm in public, i have to live with that. however, in my domain, i have the right to set my own rules and tell people they can't smoke. in my house and on any of my photography sets there is no smoking allowed. i don't care if you're Calvin Klein, you won't smoke around me when i'm shooting for you or for someone you work for.
so the airline has the right to set their rules, no matter how unreasonable it may have been for this woman. i'm not saying it's fair, it's just the way it is. i don't think her lawsuit is going to go very far because technically her rights were not violated...she wasn't told not to nurse, just told to cover up, once she refused for any reason, she gave up her own rights to do this.

coasterqueen replied: You didn't upset me at all Jennifer BTW, been entertaining a lot for work lately with Veto session now in so that's where I've been.

If we all have to comply to the "rules" then that is exactly what she did. She was well within the law to breastfeed in public as it is a federal law to be able to do so. So I assume that others should comply with that as well right? Meaning they need to understand it's within the law and deal with it.

cameragirl21 replied: i'm glad i didn't upset you, Karen.
i wanted to add also that the sight of her or any woman BFing would not bother me personally, that's not the issue IMO.
my opinion is simply that sometimes it's best just to comply and not cause a big scene that ultimately harmed them as they were removed from the flight. i'm sure the flight attendant didn't give it another thought once they were off the airplane.
it may not seem fair and i'm not saying it is and those of you who know me know that i am anything but puritanical but i feel that if the flight attendant asked her to cover up, wouldn't it have been easier just to do so, or to ask the flight attendant if there's somewhere on the plane where she can have some privacy?
personally, if i were on the plane i wouldn't care about her nursing at all, that's not the issue IMO, the issue is just that this really could have been resolved amicably...i just hate big confrontations.
now if they'd told her she can't nurse period, then that's an entirely different story....
of course this is JMO and i'm well aware that everyone has the right to their own opinion.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Jennifer I am very suprised to hear you say you would comply.. I see you are a different person. I thougth you would fight if you thought you were right. For us Mom's these children are our bear cubs if they are hungry they will eat. Come hell or high water. I am sure it would be the same if you heard an animal was not being allowed to eat on a plane in a manor they were accustomed too. For us breatfeeding Momma's thats what it's about.

coasterqueen replied:
Wait a second, it could have been resolved way before anything was ever said. The flight attendant just had to be adult enough not to stare and to move on. I mean they were in the back of the plane for gosh sake. The flight attendant should have just done her job, go up front explain the emergency crap and then sat down. She started confrontation by letting it bother her leading her to say something.

I mean if I saw a woman on a plane whose breasts were showing more than the shirt covering them would I say something and ask for someone to give her another shirt to cover up. NO! Why because I am a bigger person than that and would just, yep you guessed it, looked the other way!

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Comparing the desire to walk around 1/2 naked OR the obhorance for smoking is absolutely apples and oranges to the OP...Breastfeeding is not sexual in nature-walking around in someone else's home or in Walmart in panties would be Breatsfeeding also is not a public health risk-you won't contract BBs or lactation by being around it....I understand there are rules in society and if she had been sitting in the plane with no shirt on and no baby latched on saying she was nursing I could have understood the need for a blanket. I don't want my daughter exposed to skantily dressed women-but if she sees a woman breastfeeding she understands what it is and why it is being done. This woman was not seated next to a teenage boy or anyone else from the way the article states it so she was not causing anyone else any discomfort...Taylor NEVER took a bottle and right now on planes you can not bring cups of liquid on board-the plane was obviously still on the ground so maybe the child was thirsty as well. If she had let the child scream I am sure people would have been %&^$%$# about that as well! GIVE ME A BREAK!

Just an aside here-I have a friend who just flew with 2 of her children and used a blanket on a plane-The kids got body lice from the blanket! Nobody else in the home they flew to had it and the airline has agreed to pay for doctors visits and money for treatment-They said 'It happens'. Maybe this mom had heard this problem before!

cameragirl21 replied:
you are right, Mel, i am not big on rules. and if they had said she cannot nurse at all then yes, i would have been livid and if i were on the plane i would have stood up for her.
i just see this as something that could have been resolved so that the child could eat and they could stay on the plane.
i don't see anything wrong with what she was doing but i also don't really know why she refused the blanket. it may be inconvenient but so are so many other things in life.
let me ask you a question--imagine you're on an airplane and you need to change your baby's diaper and the restrooms are really nasty and need to be cleaned and therefore you are forced to do it right at your seat...while everyone else is eating. and imagine it's the number 2 of a lifetime. would you feel that the others in the plane or the flight attendant would have the right to force you to use the germy bathroom for the benefit of the others? imagine your baby is already sick with something, like a cold so you're more cautious about germs. obviously you must change the diaper, it can't wait otherwise there will be bad diaper rash.
i ask this because i'm not sure what the answer is--i am very uneasy about germs and i would not want to expose the baby to germs but at the same time, the rest of the people on the plane have the right to eat without having to see or smell your baby's poop. i honestly don't know what the right answer is--i'd be inclined to tell the flight attendant where she can go if she said something to me but would i be right?
i guess my point is that it's not always a black and white issue. we don't know what happened because we weren't there and don't know the whole story. when it comes to airplanes many rights have seemingly been violated--for example there was the case of possibly setting forth a law that says obese people must buy two seats for the benefit of whomever is sitting next to them. there were also several cases of people being removed from planes shortly after 911 because they were feared to be a risk due to the country of their origin.
i know this is going way off topic but i'm just stating that these sorts of seemingly unjust incidents happen occasionally on airplanes and for me it kind of begs the question--how far are you willing to take it just to be right and stand up for what you feel is your right? in the end, they have the right to kick you off and you pay the price for that, not them. do you see what i am getting at here?

coasterqueen replied: Again, who's rights were violated? I'm very confused on that fact because she was well w/in the rights of the law, so again who's rights were violated? If someone's was they should go lobby to change the law not punish the person who complied with the law.

And Jennifer I love ya hun, but comparing feeding your child discreetly and a poopy diaper.....no comparison. I'm not even gonna go there.

Like I said before if you feel a person's right is being violated by her NIP and see nothing wrong with asking her to use a blanket then there isn't anything wrong with me asking about 3/4 the women in this world to wear a turtleneck because I don't want to see any flesh showing. I mean really, there is no law against not wearing discrete clothing is there? So my rights aren't being violated and either are theirs.

ETA: If someone is that seriously offended with me NIP discreetly than I'm seriously offended at all of those who formula feed their children in public! See, now isn't that just totally lame? Well so is telling a woman to cover up so people can't see her feeding her child DISCRETELY.

gr33n3y3z replied: leave it to a woman to complain about breast feeding

coasterqueen replied:
Totally! We as woman only hurts ourselves. It's amazing! We can't blame men for women not being "equal". We do an excellent job of doing the damage ourselves.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Oh man.. i typed this once and it disappeared so I have to again..darn it

If I was on plane in a sit I paid for.. and the bathroom was too dirty to change my babies diaper.. I promise you someone would be cleaning it or again I would be asked to leave the plane..

Now that being said.. this isn't about being obese, having dirty diapers, all the other things it's a about a child's right to eat when it's hungry. It's about our society. This shows where our society is in relation to our bodies, our women, our children, how we are objectified and not how we are doing what God intended our bodies to do.

If we have a problem with a child eating and nursing it's not about the Mom and what she should cover up it's about what we feel in hearts and mind and let me tell you anyone who has time to worry about what you see when you are looking at a woman feeding her baby could use that time to do something good.. not something like this.

cameragirl21 replied: i was just going to walk away from this one because i really don't want to make anyone angry but i just want to add that i don't have a problem with the BF at all and i do think the airline attendant overreacted but my opinion is based solely on the concept of my personally not believing in picking a fight that i know that i can't win and that can lead to my being removed from the plane.
whenever i fly i always set off the detector because i wear an underwire bra and the metal sets off the detector and then i always have to be manually checked which takes extra time. i also have a middle eastern look and that doesn't help. i don't think it's fair but if i start fighting it you know what will happen--they won't let me on the plane, that's what will happen.
i have always believed in taking a stand for what you believe in, always, always, and always. however remember that when you do that there may be consequences.
i'm not a country music fan but i think Kenny Rogers pretty much sums up my feelings on these sorts of matters:
"you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."
if you know you can get kicked off the plane, why push your luck?
again, i want to stress that if they precluded her from feeding the baby at all, that would be entirely different IMO.

amynicole21 replied: Ugh - I'm going to barf. Why do stories like these continue to happen???!

I think the reason it upsets me so much is that it is such a rights issue for me. It's like telling Rosa Parks she should have just gotten up and given her seat away instead of making such a scene. OK, I know it is not on the same scale, but it's still all about basic human rights. If you don't stand up for things like this, you'll never get the rights you deserve.

amynicole21 replied:
Jennifer, I think the point that you are missing is that it is Delta that was breaking the law - not the mother. There should have been no reason on earth why this woman wasn't allowed to nurse her kid in any way or anywhere she wanted.

coasterqueen replied:


Well said Amy.

cameragirl21 replied:
Amy, i really don't want to pick a fight with you but i don't know if that's true. Delta did not tell her she can't nurse, they said she has to cover herself. it's not really the same as Rosa Parks because in this case, it was clear cut discrimination and i consider Rosa to be a hero and don't see how it's similar. they told her she could nurse, as long as she was covered to their standards. i don't see why this is an unreasonable thing to ask.

Boo&BugsMom replied: You know, I think we could go around in circles for ages playing the "who should have more tolerence" game. I think when it comes down to it, both sides should have been more tolerant. The attendant yes, should have been more tolerable, but at the same time the mom could have been too to the airline's request. Any company has the right to make their policies the way they want and the policy isn't that she couldn't breastfeed so they were not breaking any law. JMO. The thing I do find the most disturbing is that the woman was asked to leave if she didn't comply, which I believe should not have gone that far. I do give the mom a lot of credit though by not causing a scene. That was very mature of her.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Once again Jennifer apples and oranges-having people see or smell a poopy diaper is no where near having someone possibly see part of a breast...I could ask that a bathroom be cleaned to change a diaper but just like I refuse to eat in a bathroom I would not feed my child in one. This is not about 'rules'(BTW~IT is NOT against the law to BF in public and it doesn't state that the child or the mother need be covered) or the discomfort of some unknown complaintant-we see more skin on commercials than is ever shown by a breastfeeding infant-This is about the perversion of the natural act of breastfeeding. Until you have been so blessed I do not expect you to be able to personalize it.....

TANNER'S MOM replied: Exactly you gotta know when to fold em.. and for most of us mothers.. our children are a reason to fight till the end. I am sure for her it was worth getting kicked off the flight.

And to most Mom's the issue is as large an issue as anything else.. it's a gender discrimination against women and it's as broad as any other discrimination.

coasterqueen replied:
I have to say that this is a harsh statement. Why? Because even women who are blessed with children at this point obviously don't personalize it enough to understand it. I don't think you have to have a child to personalize the situation, what-so-ever. It's not about just being a mother, it's about being a WOMAN in general. It's about women having issues with the site of a breast, and having an issue with a piece of the breast showing that isn't any different than a woman on the beach in a bathing suit. We only hurt ourselves with these outlandish complaints.

I know I said earlier in my post that the flight attendant obviously never breastfed, but that was really wrong of me because I truly think you just have to be a woman to understand the issue at heart, nothing more, nothing less. ETA: Heck, I think more men at ease than women are. Isn't that wrong? They are more comfortable with the site of our bodies than ourselves? Very sad.

Cece00 replied:
This was also my first thought. I wouldnt have really been offended by her asking me to use a blanket, either...in fact, I always did BF with a blanket partially covering me in public because *I* didnt really want ppl checking out my breast. I mean, she couldve just had her husband hold it up a little to block her if she didnt want to cover the kid's head. BUT, to kick her off of the plane?? A bit much.

skinkybaby replied:
I agree. I would have been covered up anyway because I just wouldn't be comfortable otherwise. But to kick her off the plane, especially when no one can see her is just insane.

Cece00 replied:
But @ 22 months old- couldnt the child have had something else to eat? Its certainly not a 2 month old...

If I put myself into the position, it doesnt seem that offensive to me. Like I said, I probably wouldve been covered up anyway. But if I hadnt, I would either a) wait to nurse the CHILD (not baby...) or covered up or c) asked my husband to shield me with the blanket.

I dont seek to avoid conflict (in fact, I rarely do that...) but I also would not have wanted to have to get off a plane & have to rearrange my plans, and I also wouldnt want to have to waste my time suing people.

Cece00 replied:
But I doubt the actual flight attendant kicked her off the plane, right?

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

I did not mean she could not understand it but I do not believe that until you have had a child you can truly deny or champion the rights or needs of mothers and children. This is not an issue about the 500,000 other rules we wish we did not have to obey-it is an issue about Why it became such a problem that this mom did not want to cover up while breast feeding...we don't know the whole story maybe she was asked to cover the child's head-maybe she already had her breast covered and that was not 'enough' in the flight attendants view...Breatfeeding doesn't smell or cause lung cancer-the comparisons being drawn were not what the OP was about and IMHO until you have been in 'those shoes' (hungry baby,uncomfortable situation,ETC) you can't fully appreciate the magnatude of what took place...I can't say IF I would have covered my child's head-probably not if I did not feel I was showing anything or if she was fussy already-You might need to 'know when to fold em'' but some hands just can't be layed down that easily

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I think those are good points CeCe, IMHO.

cameragirl21 replied:
abbie, i rarely reply to your posts but this one is just shocking IMO.
do you know how many family lawyers are out there who fight daily in the court of law for the rights of mothers and children who are childless?! have you any idea how many female lawyers fight everyday for the rights of fathers who are childless and obviously will never be fathers? my gynecologist has delivered hundreds upon hundreds of babies and yet she doesn't have any of her own. are you saying that she doesn't know what it's like to go through labor just because she hasn't personally experienced it? do you think that makes her unqualified to instruct women how to have a healthy pregnancy just because she's never done so? do you really believe one has to experience something to have an opinion or knowledge or the capacity to know what's right or to fight for someone's rights?
i wonder what the hundreds of thousands of male ob/gyns in the US would have to say about that.
i fight like a beast for the rights of people with ALS (Lou Gehrig's) and yet luckily, i haven't known anyone who's had it until i took on this project. no one ever told me that i can't possibly be able to champion or deny these people's rights.
seriously that strikes me as so absurd i can't even find words to express it....
just for the record, i'm not attacking as everyone is entitled to her/his opinion, i'm just surprised that's all.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I can and do support the rights of people to do many things but my understanding of the crux of some issues is now much greater ,as I am a mom...All I was saying is that you can take a much more anylitical approach to this issue because your emotions are not yet involved in it...I am so sorry you find that absurd

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Nope she does not know what labor is like! I promise!

TANNER'S MOM replied: I am not Abbie..and I will say that I do not believe a doctor who has never been in labor can tell me what's it's like to be labor. She can tell me what she's seen and what the text books says but she can't tell me what it feels like.

A lawyer who fights for children's rights and doesn't not have children.. can fight but not know what it's like to loose a child unless he has had one.

A person may fight for a cause as ALS.. but you don't know what it's like to have it.

It doesn't mean those people aren't doing good it just means it all changes when it's something you have been thru. You know the ole Don't judge an Indian until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

I mean can anyone know what they would do, unless they themselves have in fact been in there and done it. You think you might now.. but until the pain of labor is yours, no matter what the doctor says you don't know if you want a shot, until it's your child you are loosing the lawyer might say one thing but do another, and when it's your child that is hungry and your breast, it again changes everything.

I am not saying that is right but I am saying it's the way life is. I do have sympathy and empathy for people who go thru things that I haven't and don't want too, but I sure don't know what they are feeling.

cameragirl21 replied: first of all, i didn't call YOU absurd, i said that statement is absurd...there is a big difference.
secondly, i fight much harder for the rights of those with ALS than most people who've lost someone to it and i am extremely emotional about it, i cry for those people everyday and i have nightmares about them and the disease every night.
i don't think you have to experience something to be able to have a stake in it and to fight for the rights of those going through it.
it's just a matter of compassion vs experience and i don't believe one is necessarily more powerful than the other.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

I don't see it as Compassion VS Experience....It is more of a Compassion brought on by Experience. I can empathize with many different maladies Thankfully with many I do NOT have first hand knowledge of. But for example- I do NOT for one moment kid myself into thinking that as real as the pain I feel for a mother who has lost her child is-I can even imagine 1/10 of what she feels....Sympathy,Love,and Desire to help are all very real and powerful emotions but all those IMHO are multiplied 100 fold when teamed with experience

amynicole21 replied:
Rosa was allowed to ride the bus too... just in the back.

cameragirl21 replied:
i understand what you're saying, Amy, but that was a clearcut case of discrimination. there was no reason for her to be in the back, it was purely based on her skin color.
in this case, they simply asked her to cover herself, and many women cover themselves by choice.
i can tell you for sure that if you're in the middle of a restaurant and you want to nurse and you just whip one out without covering it, you'll be asked to cover yourself or leave.
i'm wondering why it was such an issue for her to cover herself, while i'm no prude, i'd be inclined to cover myself just so that i wouldn't be stared at. i realize that not everyone feels this way but i just don't see what's so difficult about covering herself.

CantWait replied: Jennifer, woman who bf rarely whip it out. Bf is done very discreetly and most of the breast is covered up either by baby or by the shirt, and moms arm. If done correctly, most would not know when a mom is bf unless they actually did a double take and starred.

Further more covering up, especially indoors or on a plane is hot, and sweaty. I use to cover up because I didn't want people to stare at me, but it was very uncomfortable.

coasterqueen replied:
You don't understand though, NIP can be done discreetly, therefore you are covered up, AND NOT w/a blanket

I can guaranty you if I ever got asked to cover up when nursing my girls in a restaurant I'd ask all the disgusting people I see eating their food to leave the restaurant I got many stares, as for some odd reason people don't have anything better to do then to stare so I just gave them a nice little stare back. Why is it we teach our children not to stare but we can't seem to do the same. If people don't stare they won't know any better and the world would be one big happy place where people can choose to feed their children how they sit fit and people would worry about their own lives instead of mine/others.

cameragirl21 replied: Marie, i only said whip it out because i have seen women do just that.
granted, it's usually in the middle of a photoshoot usually when i asked them to nurse so that the baby wouldn't fuss and i could get a good shot but often we've been in a public place and they just took it out, literally, with plenty of people watching.
i know what you mean about it getting hot and sweaty and i think this whole subject has been blown of proportion, at least in the way it's been discussed on this board.
she has the right to nurse but conversely the others have the right not to see it. sadly, the airline has the right to do just about anything. it's all about whose hands the power lies in.
here is my question--some of you, particularly Amy and Karen have made this seem like you feel it's a case of discrimination, especially when you make comparisons to Rosa Parks. Do you feel she was being discriminated against for being female? in this case it would be at the hands of another female. or for being a mother? or simply for wanting to nurse in public?
the discrimination aspect of this has me curious because i'm very against discrimination of any kind and am curious if someone who sees it that way wouldn't mind speaking up and explaining exactly how you see this as discrimination. and btw, if that sounds snotty, as it kind of does to me, i want to stress i don't mean it that way at all, it's a little hard for me to express how i feel here but really i just want to know exactly where the discrimination lies. if someone can point it out to me i may see it differently.

Jamison'smama replied: That is the point of the law---you CAN "whip it out" anywhere you want and you cannot be asked to leave. I also would be livid---my 22 month old WILL NOT keep a blanket over him. The fact that the child was 22 months old has nothing to do with it IMO. If it was a 6 month old, not yet on solids who hates blankets over their face...what do you do?

The law is not conditional...it is not "you can breastfeed IF you cover yourself according to the wishes of the establishment". What if the airline had said she could feed the baby but she had to sit in the bathroom....they didn't tell her she couldn't feed the baby...just had to sit in the bathroom?

I have nursed toooooo many times in planes...this would have had me going nuts!

cameragirl21 replied:
well, if this is the case, Brenda, then the airline was in the wrong. i haven't seen this law personally and not that i don't believe you but i think i'd have to see it in order to know for sure who was wrong. i'd also have to hear the airline's explanation as to why they took the action they did.
i can say though that i can think of plenty of places around miami where if i whipped one out and started feeding, i would very definitely be asked to leave.
there is no question that bfing in public is still not really considered socially acceptable and perhaps that is really what this issue and thread is all about.

redchief replied: What is wrong with our prudish society that a woman feeding her child needs to be hidden behind a cloth?

Delta's Email Comments Page

I wrote:

Shame on Delta and it's affiliate Freedom Air for removing a breastfeeding mother from a plane under Delta's control in Burlington, VT. I am offended at the callousness of your company and urge you to change your policies immediately. Further, I believe it in the best business interest of Delta to apologize for it's behavior and compensate the mother from Vermont who was removed while acting within the law. I shall not use Delta or any Delta affiliates until this issue is resolved. Thank you.


Feel free to copy.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Thank you Ed!

C&K*s Mommie replied: Jennifer, as for the discrimination, when I read the comments about "knowing when to fold them..." my thoughts immediately went to Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King & The Civil Right Movement, American Indians, women fighting for equal rights- now this may be trying to compare apples and oranges , but standing up for what you feel is wrong is what those in our past have done & this is what the mother did in this situation. I am grateful to be where I am, and have the rights that I have as because of the brave people from our past. Without someone speaking up for mothers NIP it may never have come to light and nursing mothers would have to be relegated to always nursing discretely or pumping at home, or in public restrooms. I am happy that someone somewhere did not fold 'em and lay the cards down when it came to making NIP a law and an acceptable practice.

Whether it was blatant discrimination or not, I cannot think or speak for the flight attendant, but the mother was doing what she knows was best for her child, and discretely. That should never have been a bother to anyone in the first place.

amynicole21 replied: Jennifer, if you were asked to leave a restaurant due to bfeeding there, the restaurant WOULD be breaking the law. Here in FL anyway. Many states have laws protecting bfeeding anywhere a mother has the right to be.

If anyone is interested, here is the link to all of the state laws pertaining to bfeeding: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

I definitely believe that it is an issue of discrimination. Feeding a child is not a dirty or shameful thing. No one should be told that they need to hide away to do it.

amynicole21 replied:
Ed, the only thing I added was that I was offended by their blatant disregard for the law. Great comment. Thanks!

redchief replied:
Actually I should have stuck something in there about them coming out publicly supporting such natural human acts as breastfeeding.

coasterqueen replied:
That link gives all the detail about state law. It is also known that federal legislation states that you have the right to breastfeed publically in any federal place. It does not state you have the right to nurse publically anywhere, just federal places BUT the legislation clearly states it's not illegal to nurse in public ANYWHERE making it well within the means of the law to NIP. Not sure if that makes sense but if you research federal law it will tell you that. States are following suit by passing similar legislation making it legal to breastfeed in public on the state level of anywhere, which just reiterates the federal law. The federal legislation could not actually state publically everywhere (except federal places) because of certain boundaries with state legislation.

BF mothers ARE discriminated against, PERIOD. Why? Because we are doing something that has been going on since the beginning of time, we are doing something that the law ALLOWS us to do, yet people are breaking the law when they force us or ask us to leave for publically feeding our children. It's obsurd. It is our RIGHT to NIP so when you take our right away you have discriminated against us, plain and simple.

mom2my2cuties replied:

Not true - you can bring liquids on board, you just have to declare them.


Sorry guys, I posted this message while I was reading and didn't realize I hadn't finished it.

After spending sometime thinking about this, I realized it has been almost 3 years since I breastfed a child. (She was 3 weeks old when we stopped nursing)

I would have been appaled if someone had asked me to put her in a position that made HER uncomfortable just because they didn't like her being nursed. And because of a stupid mistake by her mom and dad, nursing was her only source of nutirition until we realized what we were doing wrong.

cameragirl21 replied: seriously, Karen, i didn't mean for this to make you all upset as you clearly sound in your last post, i was just asking so i could try to understand.
i never thought of it as discrimination and in all fairness, it's good to share information and learn new information which is exactly what went on here in this thread and i can't speak for others but i learned another perspective which for me is a valuable learning experience.
thanks for keeping this civil, everyone, i think we all know it had the potential to really turn ugly.

coasterqueen replied:
Yeah, they make you taste-test your own breastmilk which is even more obsurd.

coasterqueen replied:
Oh no, I think you are misreading my tone. I'm not upset at all. I will admit I get annoyed from time to time when people don't see that telling someone to cover up when NIP is discriminating and I find it obsurd that women (not speaking of you or anyone in particular, just women as a whole) are the ones who have the biggest issue with it. As women, we have fought so hard to be equal to men in pay, to be able to work, equal in everything yet we keep forcing ourselves two steps back everytime we do something like that flight attendant did. Granted I do not know if she was forced to tell the lady that because the article didn't state that exactly, but I gathered that it was her that had the problem with it. Who knows? But I just for the life of me, cannot understand why we are our own worst enemy. We, as in women. KWIM? This leads me to believe we'll never truly have a woman president because we cannot unite enough, cannot believe in women enough as a whole, etc. I also can't stomach the thought that women who do not choose to BF and hate for BF mothers to say that BF is better, they want to be commended for their choices, but yet they ridicule/discriminate against BF mothers who legally choose to NIP. I'm not saying this, like I said previously, about anyone in particular here, but as a world society of women. I should say particularly here in the US because many other countries, even third world countries don't bark about the subject like the US does.

mom2my2cuties replied:
That is a little wierd - On my flights all they made the moms do (And there were A LOT of them boarding in Vegas) was to take a small amount of the liquid out and they ran some sort of dip strip test on it.

coasterqueen replied:
Not weird at all, there are many articles out there of women forced to either dump the milk or taste test it to prove it's safe.

mom2my2cuties replied:
I meant wierd in the sense that it's a little gross....While I know it's packed full of nutrition - not something I really want to taste.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I am reluctant to call NIP and being asked to do it differently, discrimination. Discrimination is a term that has alot of weight with it, and it tossed around much too lightly considering that valid discrimination occurs less blatantly but all the time.

FTR, I do not think she was discriminated against on this matter-- I do not know what the attendant was thinking in her head however.

Crystalina replied:
I have to admit that I have not read this whole thread and didn't even get off the first page but I wanted to say that Yes, I think some people do get offended too easily. A woman should be able to feed her child when she needs to and if people get "offended" by that then maybe they should look away.

coasterqueen replied:
I guess that's where my opinion differs. If you look at all the legislation out there on the subject they literally use the term "do not discriminate against".

This link from the LLL is just one site that discusses that: http://www.lalecheleague.org/Law/LawEnact.html . There is also a federal legislator out there, Maloney, who's BF bill uses the term "discrimination".

Here's googles definitions on discrimination: Definitions of Discrimination I personally believe, as do those who are writing up the legislation and advocating it, that discrimination is the right term here. Again, JMO.

Being asked to do it any differently than what you are doing within the legal means IS discriminating against the person. The law does not state we have to nurse covered up, so we should not be asked to do so.

FWIW, and this isn't directly just at you since I quoted you, but why are people so reluctant to follow the law, this law? We hoot and hollar about upholding all kinds of other laws, why is this one different?

mom2my2cuties replied:
I think it is because this one forces us as a society to stop looking at breasts as what they have been viewed as for years (sexual objects) and start viewing them as nothing more than for lack of a better term - a bottle.

redplaydoh replied: NIP here is SO much more accepted. I see moms in all places comfortably NIP and no one bats an eye. It is encouraged and the few people we've talked to stating it is such a controversy in the US seem shocked and can't understand why that would be.

mom2my2cuties replied:
Because in European countries Nursing is much more widely done than it is here.


Here in the US - to an extent "sex" is considered taboo - so exposing your breasts public, even in the harmless sense of nursing, is considered to be offensive to some.

coasterqueen replied:
Are you seriously kidding me? I know I do not believe my breasts are a "bottle". Breasts and breasts were created to nurture our children with food. With a bottle, you put some contents in it and give it to a child. With breasts they were Gods creation and there isn't anything about putting food in there. It's a miracle of our body making what we should for our children.

Like I said before women are their own worst enemies. To think of breasts as bottles, I have no words to describe what is going through my mind. How in the world can a law FORCE anyone to view breasts as bottles? It sure doesn't for me. Does a law or society force me to see breasts as sex objects? NO. I am a human being with my OWN mind. Society doesn't make ME think anything. That was for highschool when those who wanted to run with the cool kids did what the cool kids did so they could be cool themselves, in turn sacrificing their own views, beliefs, and morals. That isn't something you'd expect an adult to do.

Also, I highly doubt God thought we should think of breasts as a bottle OR a sex object But what do I know, I don't read the bible daily or go to church regularly so someone with more religious knowledge than myself will have to chime in on that one .

mom2my2cuties replied: WOW! Boy did you take what I said completely out of context. \

I was meaning the term Bottle in the sense as a method of delivering food to our children.

Also, guys remember - this didn't happen to you personally, no matter how strongly you feel about it, so there is absolutely no need to get so hostile and start treating other members like crap and being hostile over it. Doing so just makes you look like a jerk.

coasterqueen replied:
No, I totally understood what you said. And I would still never use the term bottle.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Actually in the Bible they are mentioned as both I can give you the reference if you wish

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Just to show you-It isn't just society-breasts are very much multi-taskers

Proverbs 5:19
Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
Proverbs 5:18-20


Genesis 49:25
By the God of your father who will help you,And by the Almighty who will bless you With blessings of heaven above, Blessings of the deep that lies beneath, Blessings of the breasts and of the womb.
Genesis 49:24-26)

Insanemomof3 replied: That is ridiculous!!!!!

jcc64 replied: I have to say ita with Karen about our perpetual capacity as women to take each other down. It's a dynamic I will never understand. We are all sisters, and childless or not, we should be fighting for, not against each other. I also think that Amy's analogy to Rosa Parks is completely applicable here- she could have just gone quietly to the back of the bus- just as the woman could have just covered up with a blanket. There would have then been no arguments or demonstrations or news coverage and no one would have been offended or challenged to think differently. I am certain that the bigots of Rosa's time had all sorts of "legitimate" justifications for adhering to the status quo- that blacks needed or deserved to be relegated to the back.
Sometimes, we have to stand up and be heard, at great personal cost, but for the good of those to come after us.

cameragirl21 replied: Jeanne, i realize this is a very personal and very explosive issue and i know i should just walk away but what you said makes me eager to respond because i actually gave this some thought last night as i was falling asleep.
here's the thing--after discussions both on this board and via PM with some members who see it your way, i've come to the realization that what you're fighting for is the right to nurse in public, uncovered, not only for the good of nursing but to show that nursing is natural and beautiful and should not be forcibly covered up.
then i thought about it from my perspective and my first thought was that i wouldn't want to nurse in public, i think nursing is a private, intimate thing between a mother and baby and should be kept private. i'm hardly a prude, there's a topless beach here in Miami and i use to go there topless all the time...i don't anymore because nowadays i have some high profile clients and i'd not want to run into them at the beach in this rather compromising position but to be fair, i'm not exactly shy or prude when it comes to these things, but to me, a beach and a public restaurant or plane are entirely different things.
that is beside the point of this argument, though, because obviously not everyone feels that they want to keep nursing private, these are just my thougths on the matter to express where i am coming from.
then i realized that i love photographing women nursing, in fact, i always wanted to shoot a pic for the "got milk?" campaign with a woman nursing because in all fairness, she's got milk in a very literal sense. but then i realized that when i take nursing shots, most women, even if they've signed a release form meaning i can use their pictures for anything i want ask me to keep the nursing pics to myself and only show off the non nursing ones. in fact, on my website, there is one nursing shot...to protect the mother's identity, all you can see in the shot is the breast and the baby nursing from it. even so, when my parents showed off my website to their neighbors, a husband and wife, the neighbors ooohed and ahhhed over my pics till the nursing one came up...there was a stunned silence and then the husband said in disgust, "what kind of picture is that and why would you put it on your website where anyone can see it?" he was literally horrified.
i realize that this is the type of reaction that your side is trying to fight against...you want this man and those like him to see the beauty and nature of what you're doing.
all in all, i still don't know how i feel about this...i definitely would not quite compare it to Rosa Parks because i think Rosa fought for all blacks whereas i would say that for every woman who wants to nurse in public openly, there is at least one who would prefer to be covered. it's a tough issue for me--on the one hand i love nursing shots but that's art...i also love artistic nudes of pregnant women, it's my fave kind of maternity shot to take but it doesn't mean i think pg women or any women should walk around nude.
i realize i'm rambling but i'm only trying to put my thoughts together, i'm trying to reconcile my own love of shooting women nursing openly as being womanly and natural and beautiful but like i said, i feel the same way about shooting pg women nude, doesn't mean i think they should walk around town this way.
i think what you want is for people to see the beauty in the female form, especially in the context of motherhood, i don't know, however, if it's a battle that women as a group would want to take on because like i said earlier, some of us would prefer to keep this private, which is why you're seeing the majority of the conflict as being woman vs woman as opposed to a man vs woman thing.
just my thoughts, i don't know if they make sense to anyone here.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I think from reading the post above you realize it's a personal decision. We should all have the RIGHT to choose how to nurse and when to nurse and not be ashamed of our decision. Our bodies, our babies..

Thats the point.

lisar replied: I will keep my mouth shut on this one.


Wanted to add that I think it is fine for a woman to breastfeed. Whenever, wherever,Etc......

amynicole21 replied: Jennifer - you're getting the majority of it now But, for me, it's not about it being beautiful or natural (even though those things are true). It's that I'm feeding my kid. Why on earth should I have to feed my kid in private. It's food. Nothing else. I don't ask other people to hide away when they are feeding their kids. There is NOTHING sexual about it in my view.

grapfruit replied: You know, for the most part when I see women NIP, it's after I look at them for a moment. MOST are so discreat that you really have to pay attention to know what they're doing.

They're being private about it, but if you're at the store, or a restaurant, etc. And you're baby is hungry what are you suppose to do?? I'm sure some people who don't agree would say go to the bathroom. But as public bathroom phobia victim I certainly wouldn't want to eat there! Why would you want to make your baby eat in a nasty gross bathroom??

CantWait replied: I think what everyone, including myself is try to get at, is that this women was kicked off the plane for something the attendant thought was sexual in a sense, when obviously it wasn't.

To many poeple think of the breast as a sexual object, and that's why she was so shocked. This is the stigma that we have to teach people to let go of.

By quietly leaving the plane, by covering up, this women would have said "you're right, I'm being sexual", instead she choose to teach.

jcc64 replied: This is, actually, one of those instance where it would be more obvious to you if actually do have kids. Because the ability to nurse privately is not always available when the baby is hungry, and you learn that very quickly once you try to integrate a baby into your busy life. Motherhood is not always about sitting in a rocking chair, gazing lovingly into your baby's eyes, nurturing her from your bosom as the sun streams in through the window. Motherhood is about running for the plane with 12 bags full of crap with a screaming kid who just took a dump and needs to be changed. It's about being held up in security with all of your crap, and then barely making it to the gate in time, with a very fussy and irritable baby who's badly in need of a feeding. You, of course, don't want to annoy the other passengers on the flight, so you use whatever means necessary to keep the kid quiet, the most effective one being bf. I've had to nurse at baseball games, in the car on the side of the road, on a train, at my son's graduation, EVERYWHERE. B/c babies don't care what's going on around them, or that you want to be in a more suitable, discreet location, they want food when they want it.
It has nothing at all to do with convincing the world at large about the beauty of bf, it's about convenience, and above all, RESPECT.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

lisar replied:
Very well spoken...

TANNER'S MOM replied: I haven't breasfed in many years as my baby is 8.... but when I see someone breastfeeding I say Aww instead of Ewww.. you know. To me it is a sweet moment to glance at.

I was raised by a man, and so you would think I had all these weird feelings and notions considering I never saw my mother breastfeed, I never had a woman in my life to talk about it.

But I did have a Granny who raised 7 kids and me. And she talked of breastfeeding as the most normal thing in the world. She talked of feeding her sisters babies when they were sick, they were family and needed fed. She talked of it being a good and natural thing and you would never think to cover up when Granny was around. She would come over and talk to the baby and rub her cheek and maybe even pat you on the boob. Now no thats not norma but she was Granny.. but I wish the world could see it like she does. That it's not sexual, its very simply being the best momma you can be. The way God made you. Why hide it.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Now that made me laugh! You gotta love a granny!!!

TANNER'S MOM replied:
She did too.. she was funny but my Granny.. she was too funny. Beside the boob pats she told me one day.. I had a fat roll and needed to loose it.. that was granny..lol

Ellie replied: This is from Freedom Airlines.

lisar replied:
Atleast they apologized.

kit_kats_mom replied: I think that this horse has been beat plenty. I just wanted to add to the person who said something along the lines of "a 22 month old can eat solids, make him wait to nurse". Not going back to find who it was because, well, Lauren (22 mos) is currently nursing and that makes surfing hard. Anyway, we were at the indoor playground this morning and she came up and asked to nurse. I said "no" because it was nearly lunchtime and I wanted her to eat a sandwich. Well, the flailing, screaming and crying ensued (as only a 22 month old can do) and I was finally able to distract her with a roller coaster ride. Planes don't have roller coaster rides nor other very enticing things. I guarantee you that the majority of the occupants on a plane would be begging me to nurse her rather than hear the tantrum.
Nursing is not all about hunger for kids. it's also about safety and security. Neither of my girls ever took a paci or a bottle, which is what some other moms use to quiet thier little ones down. My kid is addicted to the boob and her reaction when you wont' let her have it is no different from a toddler who wants her paci.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Seems like the original article left out a few details.

CantWait replied:
The fact still remains that the attendant asked her to leave the plane. Being young and new to the job is not an excuse. It's one the airline uses as poor training if you ask me. The captain should have known better since he made the final call.

He even admitted to contradicting himself in the other article.

I wouldn't want to go back on either had someone made a stink about it, just to have people stare at me when I reboarded.

lilly&max replied:
Me neither. I can't believe that there's actually a debate on this.


It's kind of common sense in my mind. Breasts were here waaay before bottles, that's what God intended, and they aren't sexual objects, it's only society that portrays them that way. So I am firmly opposed to anyone being told to put away their child's source of nourishment. You wouldn't tell a mother that was bottle feeding that it wasn't okay would you? Bottles have nipples too.

And if some of you don't have children and are debating this issue, I can bet that you would probably not even be thinking about saying nursing in public is wrong if in fact you did have children.

lilly&max replied:
I agree with the second statement quoted-and no, you really can't tell me what labor's like unless YOU yourself have experienced it. I think any mother would tell you that.