What do you think? - religion mentioned

mysweetpeasWil&Wes wrote: We went out to dinner last night and started talking to a family that sat next to us. As we left, the mother said "Have a Merry Christmas!"

Now I'm not one to feel the need to be overly PC all the time, but I found it sorta rude that someone would assume that we celebrate Christmas. And although we do celebrate both Christmas and Hannukah, what if I only celebrated Hannukah? I told this to DH and he thought I was being silly. Yeah, maybe it's silly to think twice about it, because truthfully, I know it was meant as just a nice gesture, but at the same time, I know what it's like to grow up feeling confused and "different" that Christmas is everywhere in your face, every minute, during this time of the year and that Hannukah always has a small section (if at all) in the back of a store. I just feel like I'm pushed into being "more" Christian than Jewish ONLY because it's shoved in my face once I step out my front door! Even the current issue of Parenting magazine has only ONE PAGE of Hannukah gift ideas on the back five pages!

I understand that the majority of Americans celebrate Christmas, I'm okay with that, and I know that retailers bank on it...but why can't people at least think before speaking and simply say "Happy Holidays!"? No one is perfect, and this lady was only being nice, so I don't mean to sound harsh during a time of joy, but I just wish people could be a little more sensitive to other traditions and don't go assuming everyone is just like them.

Thanks for letting me vent a bit...

mckayleesmom replied: Well...Im not Jewish, but if someone wished me a Happy Hannukah or something...I wouldn't mind or be offended. They are just wishing me a good holiday in their way. What is so wrong with that? I think people get upset over stuff these days that their is nothing you can do about it and to me there is more to worry about then being upset because someone meant well, wether it is your religion or not..Im sure she didn't say it to offend...so it wouldn't be a big deal to me. I just think that people are trying to find reasons to be offended these days and its not neccessary if it wasn't flat out rude...kwim?

moped replied: Just a vent? Or do you want a reply - LOL..............................

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
Well as I said in my post several times, I know she didn't mean it to offend me. And I never actually said I was offended at all...it just made me think and maybe this is only a vent. I'm not trying to find uneccesary ways to be offended with just anything. This just hits home to me and I'm only giving reference to my own experience as a child who grew up feeling torn between two holidays.

Reply only if you want Jen. I don't mind hearing others opinions.

redchief replied: Someone wished me a happy Monday today. I despise Mondays, with all my heart and soul! I should give that person a piece of my mind! Hmm... wait a second. Maybe Mondays aren't horrible days to that person. Is it okay for me to be offended just because I don't happen to like Mondays? Well, I could be offended, but perhaps it would be better to just allow that person to like Mondays all they want, even though I find them abhorent. Happy Monday everyone.

MM'sMama replied: While I see where your coming from and I do agree (we celebrate Christmas too). I also think sometimes people just say things without thinking about it really it just comes out. But I do agree people should be more aware. At the places most of my family and friends work at they are only aloud to wish you a "Happy Holidays". And I do try to remember this with xmas cards and such because I do have some friends who don't celebrate Christmas and celebrate other holidays. But I do agree with you.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:

Sorry if you find me funny. I'm not asking for anyone to feel sorry for me, but I just think that it would be nice to simply say Happy Holidays because it is UNIVERSAL and I feel it means the same to most everyone. Sorry if I offended anyone. You can like Christmas all you want. I like it too. But I don't shout it out to everyone I see in case they don't celebrate it themself.

Happy Holidays everyone!

moped replied: I don't think you have offended anyone at all

mckayleesmom replied: You didn't offend me...nor was I trying to offend. We had this debate on another board I am on...and to be honest..I have not ever thought of it before...but I have been told Happy Hannuka and Merry Christmas...Happy Kwanza (sp?).....and I have really never thought about it. It just seems that every year people find reasons to get offended by things that really arn't meant to offend. I guess Im the opposite...I think people should say whatever they feel like....wether it be from their religion or universal.

redchief replied:
Rae, I think you may have misunderstood my satire. I don't find you funny, nor do I find wishing anyone a happy Anything offensive (as long as we're not going around saying things like "Happy Pearl Harbor Day" or "Happy Holocaust Rememberance). What I DO find funny is our society's insistence that the only way we can all live together in peace is to be politically correct for fear we might offend someone. I think our world is a diverse and wonderful place where people of different beliefs should be able to publically display their cultures, in peace, and be proud of who they are in all their difference. All I was saying is that I think if our world is looking for ways to be offended, then we're doomed to either continue wiping each other out until we're gone, or we'll all turn into walking robots without passion or the will to be different. Neither of those choices satisfy me.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: Ed, I'm sorry, I meant to add in my last post that I actually admire your humor and I'm not sure why I jumped on feeling offended by what you said. I suppose it just made me feel like I have to do as I always do and that's simply accept that Christmas comes before most other holidays. Which I guess doesn't sit well with me because I don't expect someone to feel comfortable with Hannukah simply because I celebrate it. I know that I can't change the world and like you said, I totally agree that I don't want to feel like a robot who always has to play the PC card. There are of course bigger issues to worry about. But again, wouldn't it be difficult to walk outside your door and have "Happy Monday" blinkie banners on every corner or a guy ringing a bell at every store you walk into asking you to give money for "Happy Mondays"? Maybe it would make you like them better, but it would also make you think...hmmm, why am I so different than everyone else and celebrating Mondays??! I suppose I'm taking it too far, but I truly feel that Hannukah, or any of the other winter traditions besides Christmas, get completely left behind, if not lost completely if people like myself didn't at least make somewhat of a gripe about it.

kimberley replied: i sort of get how you feel frustrated but don't necessarily "blame" the religions for this, but the media. christmas is supposed to be about celebrating the birth of Jesus. no where in the bible did i read about Santa or elves or mass marketing useless products . the holiday is now just a commercial ploy to get people to buy more crap imo. as was said, we can't change the world, just how we view it. if i lived in Israel, i wouldn't expect anyone to wish me a Merry Christmas but that is just me. acceptance and tolerance are powerful tools to a peaceful life.

and Ed, you always crack me up!

holley79 replied: When I use to work for the toll plaza here, there was a guy that came through my lane every single night. I was always real careful about who I said Merry Christmas too because of the "Politically Correct" crap. Well this guy was wearing a tie that said "Merry Christmas" on it and it has Santa and all kinds of stuff on it. After I handed him his change I wished him a "Merry Christmas". He lit into me like there was no tomorrow. NOW that hurt my feelings. I was so floored that I couldn't even think quick enough to reply. Unfortunately my mouth over runs my Politally Correctness and I am always wishing people a "Merry Christmas."

There was another time when I was in the grocery store and someone sneezed. Just out of habit and without thinking I said "Bless You". I was lit in again.

We can't help who we are. Sometimes we say things without thinking. I don't think we should be shunned just for kindness. I do think that all Holidays should be reconized equally. (If this makes sense.)

coasterqueen replied: Well I see your point, but I don't see how you could think people should just say "Happy Holidays". What about Jehovah Witnesses? I'm sure they are, no I know for a fact that they get sick of seeing Christmas decor, hearing Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas. I know this because my MIL is one. BUT like the discussions we've had about this before (her and I) she just focuses on her religion and not on what other people are doing or saying. It's good advice I've tried applying to my own feelings on Christmas and the media.

jcc64 replied: I get what you're saying Rae. In many, many ways, my views are often in the minority, as is often the case here as well. Sometimes it's harder than other times to accept this, but accept it I must unless I want to walk around with ogida all the time. I think what you were responding to was the feeling of being swallowed up by the great big overwhelming majority. I feel that ALL the time, although generally not where the holidays are concerned b/c I do celebrate Christian holidays in a more secular kind of way. At the same time, I do agree that this woman's impulse was a benevolent one, and rather than hanging on the one piece of negativity, it's healthier to focus on the kindness of her sentiment. What do you care if this stranger is able to acknowledge/recognize your uniqueness, your heritage, your whatever?
Besides, if the potential wasn't there for all the revenue, believe me, Christmas wouldn't be such a big deal either. Retailers make 50% of their entire annual revenue from Christmas sales (that figure may even be higher, can't remember exact figure)- there's alot at stake for them, but none of it has to do with the birth of Jesus. If the Jewish holidays were as potentially profitable, trust me, there'd be more of a presence.
And Ed, TOTALLY LOVE the avatar. My personal favorite Christmas special.

CantWait replied: Well IMHO, it really ticks me off that I can't say Merry Christmas or post Merry Christmas around my place of work for this very reason. I certainly wouldn't be offended if someone wish me a Happy Hannuka, or a Happy Kwanza. It's certainly better then a "Go F yourself", sorry to be so graphic, but you KWIM. I think they're just trying to be nice, and you should take it with a grain of salt, and wish them whatever it is you want to celebrate.

mom2tripp replied:

3_call_me_mama replied: I generally say Happy Holidays simply for teh fact that others may celebrate a different holiday than I do.. Maybe we should follow that Virgin mobil commercial Chrimahanaukkawanza event. (Seriously that's what it's called). Or maybe season's greetings or just "have a cold one" That way they can either enjoy teh winter or get a beer:)

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: I'm not exactly sure if it's worth saying much more without hurting myself, but I'll give it a shot. Well I'm a bit hurt that people would assume I'm venting hatred towards this particular woman in my post. It's not that at all...if you go back and reread what I wrote, I understand she was simply giving me a nice gesture. And to be quite honest, I wished her a happy holiday in return. But it just brought up feelings of being a minority when I live in a country where I believe there is a huge diversity of people and religions, all to be celebrated equally, yet sometimes, especially during this time of year, certain holidays other than Christmas are forgotten IMO. I feel it's my responsibility to keep the holiday I celebrate alive, just as I'm sure you all do, and if that's standing strong on keeping things PC, well then so be it. I do not blame this woman whatsoever. It's not my business nor the person I am. But I will teach my children that there is more to celebrate at this time than just Christmas even if the media holds me back from doing so.

Someone mentioned that they wouldn't expect people in Israel to say Merry Christmas to them if she was visiting there. I agree that since it's the majority religion in that country, it would be generous to accept their customs as they are since you were their guest. But in oposition to that, I am not a guest here in America. I am an American, born and raised. I just happen to be a Jewish American. And when I look around my country, there are too many other wonderful cultures and traditions to celebrate to only focus on one. Forgive me if I offended anyone. It's not my intention at all.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

ITA!!! In this day and age when the common niceities are lost among of sea of hurried faces and barely polite nods a genuine wish of a HAPPY anything would be a welcome break IMO! Take the gift of a blessing however it was worded!

redchief replied: Okay, so here I am sounding like I'm recanting, but if you look at what I'm saying, I'm not really. I understand why those of the Jewish faith might feel a little left out during the winter holiday season, and I think that in a diverse workplace, especially in government, that some political correctness is in order. I imagine that Muslims, Budhists and Hindus must REALLY feel left out in North America since their winter religeous observances are nearly totally unknown here.

The assumption in America is that everyone is Christian. This is a valid assumption on the numbers because 80% of North America is Christian. This creates a demographic minority for all of the other world faiths. For instance only about 5% of North Americans are Jewish, which means that I would have to say Merry Christmas to 24 people before I mistakenly said it to someone who celebrates Hannakuh. This gets even more unlikely in that most demographical groups tend to live together. Therefore it would normally be odd for me to even encounter someone of the Jewish faith in my town. Saying "Happy Holidays" in my town would mark you as, well, weird.

Having said all that and gone on record as saying there are more important matters in the country and the world than whether someone's religeous toes got stepped on because of overwhelming majority, I will say one more thing. My son's girlfriend is Jewish (believe it or not), and I asked her how she feels about all of this Christmas stuff. Basically she told me as she was growing up she had to be restrained from playing spoiler by her parents. That's right, her parents TOLD her that it was improper to spoil another faith's religeous traditions even though she didn't hold the same beliefs. Therefore, since I see that as a wise thing to teach a child, I shall take that position also. We all must respect the beliefs of others, whether or not we share them. Unfortunately, those in minority will always find themselves short of satisfaction, but it is easier for me to respect another faith's traditions if my own observances are not belittled.

Religion is a dynamic and passionate topic, especially when thrown into public forum. Our faiths tell us we are right and those who do not share our beliefs are wrong. Because we hold to our faith, it can be upsetting to us when our faith doesn't get its "just desserts." Being Catholic can be difficult because of our strict philosophies, so I understand how faith can be publically trounced. We feel the need to make others understand our ways, but they never will because they don't share the tenents of belief that drive us.

Monday blinkies on every street corner for the Monday hater would probably be very annoying, but will the hater's annoyance change the way the Monday lovers' celebrate their favorite day? No, it won't. If the Monday lovers are in the majority, the Monday haters will find only bitterness in their quest to remove the blinking signs. They might even win in court, but in winning they will lose respect, which was all the Monday haters ever wanted anyway. To make matters worse, if the city held a majority of Monday Lovers, the capitalists would create more and more blinking signs proclaiming the greatness of Monday and it would forever be thrust in the Monday Haters' faces.

Even stronger than faith in North America is capitalism. If 80% of the world loves Mondays, I think it would be very difficult for me to find a Monday hater's sign. And it probably wouldn't blink. I'd have to open my own Monday Haters' Specialty shop, and you know I wouldn't be allowed to join the Chamber of Commerce! Not only that, but my windows would get egged and soaped on Mischief Night, but that's another day.

I'm glad, Rae, that you brought your discomfort to our attention. As a human being, I have a responsibility to try not to inordinately hurt others' feelings. In fairness to those who do not hold to the Christian Christmas holiday, I shall try to remember to wish others "Happy Holidays."

Thank you, Jeanne. I LOVE the Miser Brothers!!! That song just gets in your head. Ba-dum-bum-bum.... Baaaa-dum.

mckayleesmom replied:
I think everyone understands what your saying...nobody thinks you were being hateful. How you take someones greeting is how you chose to take it and you have a choice. I know that if someone said Happy Hannuka to me I would just take it as their way of saying Happy Holidays...kwim? Be proud of who you are and what religion you are...don't let a greeting get you down. Hannuka, and Christmas is what you make of it...not what someone says or who has more decorations.....That stuff is all pointless when it comes to the true meaning of these celebrations.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Next time just smile and say "And Happy Hannukah to you!" This is what I would do. She greeted you in her religion...feel free to greet her in yours. I think that would get your point across without having to say "Happy Holidays". Not only that, but it would make her think about what she said and maybe teach her a little something. I get what you are saying and thought of this very thing today when a little old lady stopped to talk to Ethan in the grocery store. She asked him about Santa Claus and told him "Merry Christmas". I thought "Hmmm...what if we didn't celebrate Christmas?" Or better yet, what if we didn't celebrate Santa Claus. Plenty of christians do not, so that isn't un-common.

Anyway, I'm glad you came to us as well and I too think you should be very proud of your heritage.

redchief replied:
I like that idea!!! It doesn't trounce another's faith and it reminds us that we don't all hold the same beliefs!

MommyToAshley replied: I can understand how you feel... I am christian and feel the same way sometimes. That may surprise you and you may ask how, but I feel this way because of political correctness. Just recently, an order was passed that religious symbols such as a manger scene may not be displayed because it is offensive to those that don't celebrate Christmas. So instead, the manger scene was taken down in the store window and a Christmas tree with a big red Santa went up in it's place.... all because of political correctness. I feel offended that it was ordered that a commercial symbol replace the religious symbol that signified the true meaning of Christmas. However, I would not be offended if I saw symbols that represent Judiasm or any other religion. There is no more prayer in schools in the morning and school property may not be used for after school programs if they are religious in nature. A religious group may not march in public streets, but a hate group can. There's an attempt to remove the word God from money, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Constitution. The ten commandments were ordered to be taken down in a court of law.... now come on, what's wrong with displaying "thou shalt not kill" in court! So, I see where you are coming from and how you feel... only I seem to be on the opposite side of the PC coin.

I think you said it best when you said that it is up to you to keep the true meaning of the holidays alive. I have learned that myself, that regardless of what everyone else does and says, it is up to me to keep my relationship with God.

So, even though we are on opposite sides of how far we should take political correctness, I do understand how you feel.

Happy Hannukah!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

PhiMuMommy replied: personally i try to say "Happy Holidays" unless i know they are christians, but sometimes i just don't think about it. i'm not jewish nor have i ever had any real exposure to jewish religion (unless you count 8 crazy nights but i seriously doubt that helps) one thing i have noticed though is Disney channel ALWAYS has at least one of their shows support the jewish holiday also.. i think that is kinda cool. never really thought about it from a jewish perspective. i bet it is hard. i grew up with a friend that didn't have any holday around this time and it was always hard in girlscouts because we couldn't do a christmas program persay.. it was hard to understand but i see why now.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
I understand what you're saying, and I can honestly say I've never really thought about this, at least not from your side. I can see where it could be frustrating. But on the other hand, I hate when people say Happy Holidays to me because to me, it sounds generic and like they are just refusing to acknowledge that Jesus is what Christmas is all about. I never thought about the fact that they might just be trying to be PC and acknowledge the other holidays of this season. Something for me to remember, I guess.

But I also wouldn't mind if someone wished me a Happy Hanukkah, and if I was a Christian born and raised in a country that didn't celebrate Christmas I wouldn't expect anyone to take any consideration for the fact that I did.

Everything gets sticky in America though, because there are so many different cultures here. Everyone wants recognition, and that's hard to do, but if I was on your side of things I think I might feel the same way. I like what Aimee said about just returning the greeting with your own.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
I feel this way too. It's frustrating that in the effort this country is making to not offend people of other religious beliefs, everything to do with Christianity is becoming more and more taboo. No one seems to be very worried about offending Christians.

I hope that didn't sound like I was talking about you, Rae. I am referring to the people who are pushing for these kinds of laws that Dee Dee was talking about.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
ITA!

TLCDad replied: I have to admit if someone said happy holidays to me I would return Merry Christmas to you too... But not to offend them or anything but that I am a Christian and happy to acknowledge that. And if someone who is Jewish said Happy Hanukkah I would not be offended at all.

If someone was not Christian or Jewish and barked back to me that they were offended by me saying "Merry Christmas" to them I would probably ask them, then why do you even celebrate it?

What does offend me though, is when I see Christ removed from Christmas such as saying Merry xmas on a card or something.

And like my wife said, it really bothers us that we can not have Christian related parades but can have hate groups march down the street.

It is very sad, that I am sure alot of people are afraid of putting Nativity scenes in their yards because not only not to offend anyone but afraid someone will damage them intentionally.

holley79 replied:

We have a Nativity scene that we put out every year. If it offends anyone they don't have to look at my yard. I go all out for the holidays. Christmas is one of my most favorite times of year. I also am quite fond of the meaning of it.

What I can't stand is all the "Politically Correctness". I thought this was a free country and we could celebrate how we wanted too. If someone says Merry Christmas and you don't celebrate it the wish that person what ever it is that you want too. (As long as it's nice.)

I think everything is SO commercialized anymore. It's all about GIMME GIMME. I would not be offended if someone wished me a Happy Hannukah. Rae, it seems that the Jewish holiday is still what it always should have been. You should be proud of that. I wish Christmas would go back to it's true meaning.

gr33n3y3z replied:
I agree with you Rod
If you cant write it ALL out then dont write it at all

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well I will be honest with you.. I am from the southern bible belt. I am in a rural area.. and I have never met a jewish person. I have never seen a jewish temple? I admit to being ignorant to that side of religion. I am sorry about that.. but it is just what you see and are around. If someone calls me on the phone even at work and I more likely to say Merry Christmas and hang up..then anything. I say it to be nice and not to offend. I guess I never thought of offending anyone. But I guess only my ignorance should be the offending part not my heart. Because I am aware of the Jewish holidays.. I don't wish bad or indifferent to anyone who is Jewish.

I think one way to handle it..and something I would remember. If I said Merry Christmas to someone..and they politely returned with Happy Hannukah to me.. I think I would remember they were Jewish. Since I am not familar with their religion next I may not say anything.. for fear of my own ignorance..but I wouldn't be insulted and I would do my best to not say anything. You know... does that make since.

I have said to someone who was Jehovah's Witness Merry Christmas.. they have politely said.. we don't celebrate. And I say then have a great year! I want everyone to celebrate my love for Christ.. that is what makes me a Christain..but I do not look down on someone who don't. But I may send up a prayer.

Please don't don't look down on my ignorance of your religion or anyone else's but say a prayer for me. I may not be Policital Correct.. but I am just me. And I love everybody.

gr33n3y3z replied:

Boys r us replied: I haven't read all of the other replies, so sorry if I repeat or say something that was already cleared up or what have you.

I don't think "Merry Christmas" is about religion. Actually, I don't really think Christmas is either, even though I am a christian. In America, I think it's more of a Family holiday or time of year and I agree, Happy holidays would definitely be a more universal way of saying it..but the truth of the matter is, most people in this country DO celebrate Christmas. I have a friend who is Jewish and I KNOW that he is and every year I send him a card wishing him a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and he loves it! I did it by mistake the first year..just thoughtless and making a list of everyone I was friends with to send a card to; he was included. He loved it. He said it made him feel like I was including him in my traditions as well. So now he gets a "Merry Christmas" card every year from me. In return he always wishes me a Happy Hannuka! If someone tells you Merry Christmas, tell them "Thanks and Happy Hannuka to you as well." This world Is diverse and I think that celebrating diversity does not mean we have to conform to general, less specific terms and phrases so as to appease everyone, I think it means we are who we are and no one should have to hide a part of their life for fear of being different and that if we all uphold the beliefs and ideals that are close to us and share with others who we are, then in a way, we can all sort of become a little bit of each other as we're continuously learning from everyone around us!

So like I said, the next time someone says, "Merry Christmas" tell them, "Thanks and Happy Hannuka to you and your family!"

SOUTHERN MOMMY replied: I would just like to say thank you Rae because i NEVER even thought about it before I have always just said Merry Christmas and went on with my business. But This has made me think long and hard and i feel we should be compassionate about others feelings and i totally understand where you are coming from.Once again THANK YOU

MommyToAshley replied:
I thought I quoted you yesterday, but I must have forgotten to hit enter. But, I agree with you. "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" bugs me for the same reason, but it helps to have these types of conversations so that we see things from the other person's shoes.

MommyToAshley replied:
Mel, you have such a kind heart. If everyone in the world acted and felt this way then there wouldn't be all the religous wars going on right now and we could all co-exist peacefully.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
Lol it was there for a minute... I quoted part of your post back to you. I don't know what happend.

jcc64 replied: I've already weighed in on this topic, and for the most part, agree with much of what's been said regarding respectful holiday salutations. However, a few comments went off on a tangent that really struck a nerve with me, and I feel compelled to respond. The issue(s) to which I'm referring pertains to religious displays and iconography on public property. We have had conversations on this topic before, but it's something that I feel very strongly about, and hope that I can shed some light on what some consider to be an anti-Christian sentiment.
Rod raised concerns about nativity and manger scenes on private property, and how some people might fear offending others with such displays. It is a private property owner's perogative to display WHATEVER HE WANTS on his own land. We had this issue come up in our liberal little town last year when many people became irate to see a swastika displayed on the land of an eccentric citizen who actually was NOT making a racist political comment, but was (understandably)misunderstood to be doing so. All of a sudden, a usually tolerant bastion of liberal ideology suddenly became very narrow minded as to what was acceptable free speech. Although this guy's political sentiments were not well expressed, he is entitled to express them on his own land, in whatever fashion he chooses, whether people like it or not.
This is very different than displaying the Ten Commandments in a courtrroom, or prayer in schools, which are public property, supported by the tax dollars of ALL of our citizens, including atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Christians. No one is denying anyone's right to believe and practice whatever he wants, but in the proper time and place. That's why we have churches and temples, that's why we are free to pray in our homes and any other private spaces. A courtroom, more than any other physical space, is to be seen as neutral ground, and the Supreme Court agreed according to the current laws of the land. We may be 80% Christian, but our founding fathers protected us from the potential erosion of our precious freedoms by firmly establishing a separation of church and state. I believe the Religious Right has been working very hard to eliminate this safeguard, and I fear the eventual silencing of anyone whose views are different from the mainstream. (like myself).
Please understand that I do not begrudge anyone their right to celebrate their religious holidays. I for one am horrified at the lack of understanding of Christ's teachings, not only at Christmas time, but all the time. There are many so called Christians that have strayed very far from what I believe Jesus' intended message was, instead turning organized religion into an exclusive club and political organization. But that is their right to do so.
Just not on public land.

MommyToAshley replied: Jeanne, you know that I love and respect you. I think you are intelligent, well spoken and I often see things in a different light because of something you have written. But, we simply have a difference of opinion in this matter.

I do understand your point of view and agree to some degree. But, just like anything, things can be taken too literal and the constitution can be interpreted to fit any point of view. I understand the need for separation of Church and State, but to what degree? A church was denied the right to participate in a 4th of July parade because it was a public street and it was said to violate separation of Church and State. However, not even a month later, the KKK was allowed to march on public streets because it was protected by free speech! Do you not see the moral injustice here? I don't think that is what the founding fathers had in mind. The separation of Church & State was put in there to protect religious freedoms, not to squander them.

The founding fathers also put many Christian references throughout the constitution. Christianity is the moral fiber in which this country was founded on. But, I don't think the founding fathers were trying to say that everyone living in this country must be Christian. The references were there to protect everyone's freedoms.

With that being said... Is it really offensive to look at a manger scene? As I said before, I would not be offended one bit if symbols of other religions were displayed. What's wrong with having a few moments of silence in the morning... if you don't want to pray, then don't.

I know I got off-topic, but in my original post I was trying to point out to Rae that I understand how she feels. She felt as though no one was recognizing her religion and her beliefs.... and even though Christianity may be the religion of the majority in this country, I feel as though there is an attempt to remove every reference to God and Christianity. So, I could relate to what she was saying.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Dee I agree...

I think times in the states where alot better and things were easier..when I children where allowed to make a respective display of and to God.. or whatever they believe. We talk alot about how times have changed and things are not so much better in reality. I mean we have alot more techology..but we have alot more that is wrong then right in alot of instances. And I in my opionion find this to be the reason.

We have taken God out of everything and then suddenly the moral fiber is gone in the whole community.

That is just my opionion. And it is totally off topic.. I may need to be edited. But I agree with Dee.. If we are in the majority..and agree to recognize the minority what is wrong with that?

redchief replied: Again I admire everyone's restraint while defending her/his points of view. It's very cool that we can have such conversations. In other parts of the world some or all of us could be jailed for expressing these opinions. I think a little history lesson is in order here though, so that there's no confusion about the intent of the founding fathers.

It has been said that the founding fathers carefully maintained a separation of church and state to ensure that religion did not enter into government. The historical truth is that the founding fathers wanted to ensure there was no religeous persecution toward any of the Christian religions; in other words, there was not to be a state church. That's right, I said Christian religions. In the 1700's the founding fathers concern was a repeat of the persecution that took place when King Henry declared himself head of the Church of England. Many of the immigrants to the colonies of the time did so to escape United Kingdom persecution. Islam was solidly walled back into the Middle East after the Crusades, and the Christian world felt it would stay there. The founding fathers were largely ignorant of the existence of the Hindus and Buddhists. Aetheism was unheard of and agnostics kept to themselves. All but two of the founding fathers were members of mainstream protestant Christian faiths (which puts me as a Roman Catholic in the minority also). A couple of the founding fathers might have been considered agnostic, though they had church affiliation. They were careful though to state that there would be no religious test to determine whether or not someone may serve as a representative. That is the only time religion was mentioned in the original Constitution.

When the courts rule on whether or not a religious display is appropriate in a public place, they always point to the first ammendment of the Bill of Rights (not part of the original Constitution; but part of the first set of changes). What those judges seem to forget is the second part of the ammendment, which forbids abridging free expression of religion.

Therefore I believe that when judges say a Christian observence display is illegal, they are wrong. I also believe that due to the wording of the ammendment that all religious observance displays are permissible under the law. I do believe that the Christian majority is being persecuted in the United States for no other reason than they are in the majority. That's no more right than persecuting someone because he or she is in a minority. Just my opinion on that subject.

MamaJAM replied: Before I reply - let me just say that I have not read all of the relpies - though I have skimmed through them.

We are a Jewish family and celebrate Hanukkah. We also live in an area that is primarily Christian. Also - I really hate being 'politically correct'.

to the OP - I understand exactly where you are coming from. The woman's comment didn't 'offend' you but it did make you think. Each time someone wishes me a Merry Christmas - I just reply with a happy and friendly "Happy Hanukkah". I am never rude....and appreciate the sentiment behind the statement. If I want to just wish someone a happy season - without them making a comment to me first - I will use the phrase "Happy Holidays" (because I assume they probably aren't Jewish). If they reply with 'Merry Christmas' - that's cool.

Anyway - hope that all made sense.

jcc64 replied: I get what you're saying Dee Dee, I really do. And the whole KKK/church march thing does indeed sound perverse. But I don't necessarily equate disallowing religious expression on public property with religious persecution. No one is denying anyone the right to practice their religion- but by insisting that it be done in a public space that is to be shared by all, can you not see that it can be seen by some as an infringement on their desire NOT to observe a religion? As I said earlier, why is it not enough to practice in your chosen house of worship and in your home and with your family and in your car, etc...? I know it seems like splitting hairs, and believe me, I do think there are far more pressing issues than whether someone has to "endure" a nativity scene in a park. Personally, you'd be surprised to know it doesn't bother me , but a line has to be drawn somewhere, and that I firmly believe. Sometimes, as with the KKK thing you mentioned, the "reasoning" seems pretty wacky and arbitrary. But the Ten Commandment monument argument wound its way through all the different levels of the justice system, and while I do not claim to be a constitutional scholar, I do trust in the courts ability to adjudicate fairly according to the letter of the law. (maybe that's the hopeless optimist in me).
I know in my heart that my Christian friends on this board truly embody all that is good about their beloved faith. I also believe it is possible to be an equally moral person without practicing any organized religion at all. Frankly, if everybody "out there" conducted themselves with the respect and restraint that we do here when discussing hot button issues like this, the world would be a different place. Oh that it would.
And Ed, thanks for the history lesson. My own recollections from history class are much fuzzier- I appreciate you taking the time to dust off the cobwebs for me.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
This is SO true!

You and my dad would get along REALLY well. The two of you think a lot alike. Everytime I read a post from you I can hear my dad's voice.

MyLuvBugs replied:
That's a perfect response. ITA!!

MyLuvBugs replied: This is a very interesting topic to me, and more so b/c we all seem to be saying the same thing but in different ways. We all believe that the woman that wished Rae a Merry Christmas was just being nice. We all realized that media and commerce have blown "Christmas" WAY out of proportion. And we all seem to think that it shouldn't matter how you celebrate the holidays, so long as you offer everyone around you the best during the holdiay season (whether it's, Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, etc.).

This whole message string goes to prove how diverse we all are, and yet how similar our intentions can be. And isn't that really what we are all supposed to rejoice and celebrate during this time of year? Our diversities are what make us all unique and special, and this is the time of year when almost ALL religions take a few days to celebrate their uniqueness. Perhaps we should all take this as an opportunity to learn about anothers culture/heritage, and use our new found knowledge to better ourselves.

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannakah, Happy Kwanza, etc....

Hillbilly Housewife replied: wow... what an interesting read!!

What I don't get is (and please don't misunderstand the spirit in my post), is that EVERYONE from every religion in the Americas.... gets Christmas Holidays, Easter Holidays, etc etc..... but not everyone from every religion gets time off for Hannukah, Kwanzaa and all the other faith-based Holidays. Or at least the option of it.. .I mean - I feel bad for the people of christian faith forced to work Christmas Eve, and the day of.... yet wait - people who don't celebrate it are home on vacation time... know what i mean?? I'm not trying to be offensive or misunderstood...

I kinda selfishly feel that I am getting gyped from time off, since I get the Christian holidays off, but then again so do people from other religions. But they get their holidays off too, on top of the ones they don't necessarily celebrate....know what I mean?

Everyone should get all the holidays off. I'm all up for more paid time off!!

jcc64 replied:

I'm all for that!!!! Rocky- to answer your question about "minority" religious holidays and time off- my kids get most of the major Jewish holidays off from school as well (Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur). Someone with more knowledge please feel free to correct me, but I believe Hannukah is not considered a "major" holiday in the Jewish faith, and has only grown to become so in response to the Christmas frenzy surrounding it.
Erika-very nice post. Thanks for that.

amymom replied:
Nicely said!

My2Beauties replied: Wow this topic got really intersting, and I am so glad that everyone responded politely and this didn't get out of hand, as it is a very hot topic! Rae, I can see how you may feel that your faith is kind of pushed to the back burner during the Christmas season. I have a friend who grew up celebrating Christmas and Hannukah as well, she took a lot of her beliefs from the Jewish faith and a lot from the Christian faith, she has things she takes from both. It was really weird to walk in a house, for me, that had a Christmas tree up along with a Menorah. I didn't understand her other "faith" and I as a child I always asked a lot of questions and I could see how it she felt like the Jewish part of her faith didn't matter as much, because her friends didn't call her each day of Hannukah to ask how it went, what she got, we called her on Christmas morning to wish her a Merry Christmas and see what she got! I don't think ever once I wished her a Happy Hannukah, because of my own ignorance! Now I can see how that may have hurt her feelings. Her parents split up when she was 13 and she mainly lived with her Christian mother after that and I think now she only celebrates Christmas, but still does have some Jewish beliefs.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I can see how this would make you feel. I know you know that woman didn't mean anything by it, as you have expressed, but it is weird for her to say Happy HOlidays as it is weird for me, I always say Merry Christmas, but I like AImee's idea, say Happy Hannukah back. I don't think anyone would be offended by it and I think it will just make them think a bit next time they speak. I work with a Jehovah's Witness as well and they do not celebrate anything, so she gets told Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas constantly over the phone, she just says Thank you and you too and hangs up because she knows evidently they celebrate something and that she wants to wish them a Happy Holidays too because they celebrate.

I also like Rocky's idea of more time off - I'm with ya 100%!

also I would not be offended by other religious displays in my town, I live in a diverse community here so we do see them displayed and it doesn't offend me not one bit and I think it's wonderful that they are displaying their religious displays and I pay just as much attention to those now as I do the Nativity scenes and Santa Claus and everything!

MamaJAM replied:
Yes - Hanukkah is not considered a 'major' holiday. Just like Passover isn't a 'major' holiday in that every day is considered a Shabbat - though there are several Shabbat days during Passover at which time we don't work/write/etc. But there are more dietary restrictions during Passover which is why many Jewish kids will not attend school during the entire holiday. Holidays which would be considered 'major' are Yom Kippur (2nd holiest day of the year) - and RoShannah (which is actually a 2-day holiday). There are several other days throughout the year also.
In the area I live - the public schools only recently started being closed on Yom Kippur in the last few years -- every other Jewish holiday - a child would have to stay home from school and be considered absent. And from most companies any Jewish holidays taken off you need to use vacation days....therefore leaving almost NO VACATION time for the more observant families.

kit_kats_mom replied: I just have to chime in a bit. In Tampa, they were going to cancel all "religious" holidays for school children since so many people in the "minority religions" were putting up a stink about not being off for their holidays. I think I heard that it didn't pass the school board but I thought it was interesting. I honestly think that work and schools should just give floating holidays. Say 7 days a year that you can take when you want to celebrate whatever it that you celebrate. MLK day a big deal to you? Then you can have it off. Oh, you are a Festivus celebrator? By golly, you take that day off buddy. I think that would save on a bunch of hurt feelings all around.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I just thought of something that this post reminded me of.

When Scotty and I were planning our wedding I worked for a Jewish lady from NY. We were on our way to lunch one day and she asked me how our wedding plans were going. #1 she had never been married and thought I was entirely too young and stupid to be getting married. (I was 20) Not to mention, she wanted me to devote my life to her business Scotty and I had a big church wedding on December 20th. The church was decorated with Christmas trees and a MANGER SCENE in the balcony. They would not remove the manger scene for us, so you can see it in some of our pictures. I was telling her about the manger scene and she said "What is that?" Remember I was 20, lived in a small town, had never really known a Jew and it struck me as odd that she wouldn't know what a manger scene was. I mean, she was close to 40! So, that really opened my eyes and I've learned a lot since then and really took it upon myself to learn more about different religions and cultures, etc. However, she probably still doesn't know what a manger scene is. Oh, but she DID give Christmas presents every year.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
ITA!!!

MommyToAshley replied:
I think it is a good idea in theory, but I could see how it would be a nightmare for teachers. If half the class took their holiday at Christmas and then other kids took weeks off throughout the year, it would make it hard to plan important lessons.