What do you do w/a child like this?

coasterqueen wrote: I have no clue what to do with Megan these days. She doesn't say a lot of words and screams for basically everything she wants. She's very stubborn.

I can look into her eyes and see that she understands EVERYTHING and she's smarter than any of us give her credit for. The biggest problem is she is so defiant. She will give me this look that I 100% know that she's saying "lookie here, this is the way it's going to be and that's final" or "hmmm, didn't you just see me take that thing you told me NOT to take? Well screw you I took it anyways!". I'm serious, this child can give you looks that are just plain defiant. I thought I was just seeing things, but her looks are completely obvious and many others have noticed it too. I just don't know how to describe it clearly enough for you all. I will tell her to give me something that she's not supposed to have and she will look at me and walk away with this smarty pants look like "F you mom".

I don't know how to discipline the child who can't communicate with you, who has a cuteness to the looks she gives even though they are bad AND she doesn't understand timeout at all.

If I ever said Kylie was my problem child I realize now I'm paying for saying that about her because Megan is 100x worse. OMG, she's just plain defiant at all times and she CLEARLY does it on purpose.

Help me!!!!

C&K*s Mommie replied: I have not BTDT, I am there and am doing that! My sympathies.

moped replied: Karen, could it be that she jsut can't speak 100% clearly yet and it is frustrating for her??????

coasterqueen replied:
Well it does frustrate her and the rest of us when she can't communicate, but I honestly don't think that's why she's being defiant. Really. I think it's just her devilish personality. I mean her lack of communication is making it difficult to discipline her for sure. I know she knows what I'm saying and she gives you this look like screw you I'm doing it anyways and she defies me on purpose.

With Kylie I could use a stern voice, threaten and do timeout at this age. With Megan she doesn't give a hoot about the stern voice or threatening (even if I follow through) and timeout - well I truly think she doesn't understand this concept.

When I threaten her it's with "if you do this again you are going to your bed" because I know she hates when that happens, but when I follow through she will just sit in her bed and scream and scream and scream. The reason why we have trouble letting her do that is she has a tendency to hold her breath til she turns very blue and she will get so upset that she throws up and often she'll choke to where if we aren't there it's a serious problem. It all has to do with her reflux and gag reflex. How do I know she does this? Not becuase I've let her get to that point in her room, but when she throws a tantrum this happens, even if I'm there to calm her down. Basically if I don't give in this happens and Ryan and I are both afraid not to for health reasons. Is this making any sense? I'm also afraid that if we don't stop giving in that this is going to get 100x worse.

Gosh, she is just so different from Kylie. I mean Kylie is a drama queen but Megan put drama queen on the map, no joke! I guess I can pray that when she starts communicating more this will stop but I have a huge hunch it's not.

MyLuvBugs replied: WOW Karen....are you sure you don't have my child there with you? Sounds EXACTLY like Lorelei. I know you're not into spanking, so here's some other things that we've tried besides spanking.

-IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE! If she wants to scream....let her. It's not hurting you (well, except making you go deaf, but then eventually you won't have to listen to it! ). But seriously, if she's not going to use her words and not listen to you, then don't listen to her and just ignore her. It really seems to get Lorelei's attention when I just walk away and let her sit there and scream.

- Timeout for a LONG time. Not just 1 minute or two, but for more like 10-15 minutes, so she gets the point that you're REALLY Ticked off. KWIM? And if she talked or tries to get up. Flop her back down in place and Firmly say....SIT THERE and BE QUIET! then walk away again. Sounds harsh, but it works most of the time.

-Take things away or "throw" them away. I actually have thrown out some of Lorelei's toys when I've gotten really PO'd. But Sometimes I just get out a plastic bag and throw them in there and say "TOYS all gone!" then put it by the door to make it seem like I'm going to throw them out. And I usually take the toy the is her favorite at the time to really make a point. KWIM?

But the biggest help....besides just breathing and reminding myself that she's only 2....was to remind myself the I'M the adult in the situation. That I am the one in control and I am the one in charge....NOT her. Basically pumping myself up with confidence to take her on each day. When you truly believe that you are in charge you exude it, and people respect it...even little kids. But you have to show it threw your eyes and truly believe it. KWIM? Cause kids will read right through all your insecurities. And they will manipulate and take advantage of ya in a snap. Believe me! Lorelei has learned how to use the POTTY as an excuse to "get out" of timeout or eating her meals .....however, we've caught on to this little skeem. But you constantly have to be one step ahead it seems.

I hope that helps a little. Believe me...I'm totally feeling for ya! The "independant" children are the handfuls. Good luck!!

cameragirl21 replied: do you think maybe a reward system would work, like using stickers as positive reinforcement?
maybe make a chart for each girl, i'd do this with Kylie also just so that Megan can see that Kylie is getting more stickers so she'll try to be good to compete.
and give each of them a sticker for good behavior?
i'd not be inclined to leave her to scream because what if she chokes and you're not there to attend to it because she's in timeout?
that could be dangerous IMO.
i honestly would be so frustrated in your place because I believe in the ignore reaction but not if it could lead to puking and choking.
maybe take each of them shopping and have them each pick out a toy they really want and buy the toys and put them where they can see them but can't reach them, like atop the fridge.
then tell them they need x number of stickers in order to get the toy. and then tell them how they can earn each sticker.
Megan may be a little young to understand that but it often works with 2 year olds and she's almost 2....

lisar replied: I say that when she takes something and doesnt give it back when you ask her to, take it and SHE KNOWS WHAT YOUR SAYING... take it from her, and dont give in to her for her screaming. I am going thru this with Raygen right now. And its so much fun. The only thing I know to do is not to give in.

coasterqueen replied: Yeah, see both my children don't give 2 hoots about toys. There are things I can take away from Kylie that are important and she will then listen, but Megan is not attached to anything. She just goes around the house all day long tearing everything apart like that Tasmanian devil. Seriously. The child doesn't like tv, she doesn't care about toys or stickers, or anything unless it means getting to tear them up. The only thing that is her prize possession is her blanket. If I take that away from her I can guaranty you it would be like the scream fest in her crib to the point of puking and choking. Sometimes this child makes me wonder if that whole thing is purposefully induced but I know it's not because she has choking fits at other times to where if you aren't there, I don't even want to think what would happen.

I know she doesn't take me seriously, but will with Ryan. Both girls are like that and I don't know why because I'm a pretty tough cookie and when I mean business I mean business. Dh is scared of me. Maybe it's because I'm the person who does the disciplining 3/4 the time whereas Ryan is their best friend. Who knows.

I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I will have to admit we are almost to the point of spanking with her and I thought I'd never ever say those words or think them. Ignoring might be the key to a certain extent as long as I know it won't get dangerous (with choking) or how far to go with it, kwim?

I tell myself this is just a phase too, and I pray it is but not seeing this type of behavior from Kylie and I thought she was the worst, it scares the crap out of me. She's such a beautiful ray of sunshine when she's not like this, though.

gr33n3y3z replied: geeze sounds like someone I use to know my son John

What I did to solve the problem I cant remember I think I did as this was suggested to you already


-IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE! If she wants to scream....let her. It's not hurting you (well, except making you go deaf, but then eventually you won't have to listen to it! ). But seriously, if she's not going to use her words and not listen to you, then don't listen to her and just ignore her. It really seems to get Lorelei's attention when I just walk away and let her sit there and scream.

Good Luck Karen bc its going to be hard keep us posted

MyLuvBugs replied:
Ya know what though Karen...She's learned to use that to get you to do what she wants. What you need to do is teach her that that is SERIOUSLY inappropriate/WRONG!

My cousins little boy used to do something similar. He'd hold his breath until he turned blue and would almost pass out. Apparently his daddy used to do the same thing when he was a kid! So, my cuz and her hubby got sick and tired of him doing that, so they picked him up one day and plopped him into the tub and turned on the cold shower water on him. Got him to stop holding his breath and he never did it again that I know of. Sounds a little harsh, I Know , but it got the kids attention and allowed the parents to take back the power from the child. KWIM?

Sometimes when Lorelei is just not listening and won't stop screaming and it's getting to the point where she's coughing and gagging....we just use the spray bottle of water that we use for the cats on her. It shocks her and gets her attention, so that she'll listen.

You're totally right that if you keep giving in and letting her do this that it will get 100x's worse. Right now it sounds like she has the power and control of the situations, and she KNOWS it. You gotta take it back sweetie. Maybe find something like stickers or some other pretty that she REALLY REALLY wants and use that as a bribe. Sometimes that works. Just gotta keep changing it up and keep on your toes sweetie.

cameragirl21 replied: idk, Karen, i think it's very important to get both girls to respect you, not just your DH, otherwise their teenage years will be hell for you...if they don't respect you now, think about how it will be then...?
i think at this point you need to do whatever you need to do to keep them in line, otherwise you'll lose control as a parent.
not to imply that you haven't already, but maybe take Megan to the doc to find out what's up with the reflux and choking, maybe she's in some discomfort and is taking it out on you because she, in her self centered nearly 2 year old mind, thinks that you're not doing anything about it and thereby ignoring her discomfort?

coasterqueen replied:
Well I plan to ask her feeding team and specialists Monday when we see them. She's going in for a speech evaluation, weigh-in, as well as gagging, etc so hopefully they can give me some answers. If not I might need to start seeing a team of specialists myself.

MyLuvBugs replied:
I know you're totally against spanking. We've talked about that before, and I totally understand why. But there is a difference between a "beating" and a "spank". My parents did BOTH with me at various times of my life. Dh and I were just talking about this the other day in fact, and I remember my last "Beating" was when I was 15 year old. And I WILL NEVER do that to my child. But I do believe in spankings. Just not Beating the child. KWIM?

To me a spank is a quick little slap on the tush or hand OR a flick of the finger or something light like that. Does that make sense? NOTHING with a weapon or that would severely harm the child basically.

I know you're not into the spanking thing no matter what, but it is always there as the last line of defense (in a manner of speaking). Maybe she will respond to a little swat on the tush or hand every once in a while when she gets really out of hand. I don't know. But please don't beat yourself up over thinking about doing it. Your girls will still love you even if you do give them a little swat.

cameragirl21 replied: again, Karen, i hope you don't feel like i was implying that you're not taking your child to the doctor, etc but my first thought was that she's just in discomfort and making everyone else feel the discomfort, so to speak.
the other thing i'm thinking is, maybe she's just bored. i don't know what kids who don't like toys or tv do to occupy themselves. maybe enrolling her in a tots' gymnastics like gymboree will help her get some of that energy out...?

coasterqueen replied:
No, no I knew you didn't mean it that way and I didn't take it that way.

She may be bored, I guess. Although she seems to be pretty busy tearing up my house 24/7. IT's like the whole house is her play area. Hmm, I'll have to pay more attention to the times she's doing this. That might be the ticket.

Kaitlin'smom replied: Kaitlin certainly has her moments like this and I can normaly pin point the reason for said meltdowns. I do try and advoid them but soemtimes I cant. She is normaly so good about bed time even after we moved it back since she was complaining about being tired at school but last night she had a meltdown and did not want to sleep alone. I sent her to her room and told her when she was done let me know then we woudl talk. She came out after a couple minutes and we talked abut started to meldown again when I told her she had to go to bed. I siad let it out let it all out you have to the count of 10, I started counting and she let it out and was done by 7, I dont know if something like that can work for Meagan cause of her age but its something else to think about, tell her to let it all out and she has to the coust of (what ever you pick) before x happens ( I like the water idea to get her attention). Are there certain things that triggers her to be the diva drama queen or just ramdom things. for Kaitlin she has a hard time when I have to work late and we got home around 7p its just nto enought time for her I know this and last night I was tired not feeling well and did not watch the time to instruct her better there for major meltdown at bedtime. However I had to let her know I will not accept this behavior, all I know that its hard.

cameragirl21 replied: well, the reason i mention it is because kids generally get destructive when they're bored. they don't have the concept of sitting down and just relaxing and pondering things, they just know that they have nothing to do so they find themselves something to do and it pretty much always involves destroying something or other.
so if maybe you either enroll her in a class where she's active and gets some of that energy out or take her to the playground, which i imagine is very cold to do in your neck of the woods at this time of the year or something active where she can be around other kids.
maybe you could turn on some music and dance with both girls, kids love to dance and that sure gets their energy out. only problem is, it also makes them hyper and all riled up and then they may suddenly find more energy to desroy stuff.
it just never ends....

coasterqueen replied: Yeah, I do the same with Kylie and her meltdowns. That isn't working for Megan at this point.

I do like Erika's water idea too. She hates when I use the water bottle on her hair so I think that one could actually work. Course I am a bit afraid that she might be afraid of water bottles the rest of her life.

lisar replied:
Just out of curiosity (not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything) but for someone who doesnt have kids I think saying that is a little harsh especially comming from someone who doesnt have a 1 or 2 year old running around there house 24-7. If you dont know what its trully like then how can you say something like that. I take offense to that.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well my Brittany would hold her breath until she passed all the way out.. and sometimes she would throw a tantrum so big and bad she would left up her arm and literally bite herself until she brought blood. I took a glass of cold water and thru right in her face and she stopped the breath holding but not the biting. This sounds mean but I would laugh at her for biting her self. I would say Ha Ha Brittany bit herself and it didn't hurt me. Because she was doing it to make me feel bad.. and then she stopped cause she was hurting herself.

I think that each child is so different. Justin is defiant. He was never a fit thrower just defiant. If I said don't .. he would turn and look at me and do, If I said that will hurt you .. he would try it too. He wasn't attached to much either.. so I understand what you are saying. I used to always lean down on his level, lower my voice and say Justin DO NOT.. and when he did it ..he did get a spanking.

I think every child is different. I think you have to discipline every child differently. I think she understands you but maybe you haven't found the way for her to vent her feelings or talk to you in a way. I think when she gets upset if we could find some way for her to acknowledged what is going on or what is happening.. and what she is being punished for it would be easier.

Some kind of sign language is usually effective until she can talk for herself. Tell her if you understand me.. then make a fist and hit my hand.. that way you know what is going on.. make signs that are a staple to what you need.. I mean from drink to whatever..I think if she feels a way to communicate it will be easier on her.

But what do I know.. Karen we have all been at the point of losing it..and I personally have yelled to much and had to just walk away..so I know what you mean. Best of Luck.. and she is a pretty girl and I know why those looks would get ya for sure..lol

coasterqueen replied:
I'm sorry Lisa, I actually didn't take offense to that because she is right. I don't think you have to be a parent to know that one. You only had to be a child. What I mean by that is I have learned a lot of the things I know now, the tools I have now by what my parents did with me, or in a lot of cases where they screwed up with me. We use that knowledge to be parents ourselves. Or at least I have and I didn't necessarily learn it after being a parent.

I personally could use all the advice I can get. Sure I've been a parent to a two year old before but when the other one is entirely different it seems like a whole other ball game. KWIM?

ETA that Jennifer isn't the only one who said this. Erika (and I take no offense Erika) was saying the same thing, I believe, in another form of words. I'm not offended at all.

lisar replied:
Yes I understand your point. And I agree with you. However the other post is the one that I took offense to because of the way it was put. Not you in anyway. I just dont like it when someone says things like that. Sorry I cant put exactly what I want in this post for fear I will get kicked off of parenting club. And I LOVE IT HERE.

moped replied: I think what lisar is trying to say is that you really don't know how crazy life gets until you have a toddler or two running around. I had no idea what would hit me when I had Jack - and I only have one child right now.

I always find it hard to take advice from people that aren't parents because they haven't been there and done that before......it is easy to say things but until you have lived it I don't think you really know......

That my 2 cents worth.

coasterqueen replied: And I respect your opinions, but I didn't ask for advice from specific people or types of people. Yes, I agree there are times when the advice you get from someone w/o kids makes you feel "ugh, they have no idea what it's like" BUT that being said I've gotten advice from parents who think it's clear cut and don't have any clue what I'm going through and their advice isn't that easy to take, KWIM?

ANYWAYS, thank you EVERYONE for your advice. I plan to soak it all up in my tired brain today and try to utilize some of the things for this long holiday weekend.

quinnandjacob'smom replied: I really liked the idea about giving her a certain amount of time to "get it out of her system." Then she knows she can vent, but that there's a limit to it. I would imagine that the communication issue is frustrating her as well. She probably knows what she wants to say but it just isn't coming. It couldn't hurt to express your concerns to your ped. Maybe he has some recommendations/information for you. I know I haven't helped any, but I just wanted to offer you some support. I know Jacob can get pretty out of hand too, so I'm getting some ideas as well

Kaitlin'smom replied: best of luck Karen I hoep you find something that works. My oldest sister give her daughter chocolate when she is 'emotional' my other sister who will be having all new experience next year with the new baby seems to think she already has it figured out, she has 3 boys and is expecing a girl, she seems to think she already knows how to raise a girl, I think she is in for a shock.

redchief replied:
Yep, that's what we did. We also made a lot of gushy happy faces whenever he communicated appropriately. Now he won't shut up.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I don't see what was so offensive... nowhere did Jenn insinuate that she "knew better" than Karen... it's all "maybe" and "what about"....

and wtf does it matter whether she has kids or not? Anyone half wit who's ever watched Dr. Phil, Oprah, Nanyy 911, SuperNanny, other show with "parenting lessons" or has ever read a book on parenting could have posted the advice they saw or read, the same advice as Jennifer... which is BANG ON, btw.

moped replied:
Nodbody said that Jennifer "knew better".......just that it is hard to give advice when you haven't been there.

And as far as it being BANG ON I guess it is a metter of opinion.

lisar replied:
Rocky Honestly I like you and have full respect for you. But as far as Jennifer (cameragirl) I just think its harsh for someone to say they "could" loose control when their kids are teenagers if they have no idea what its like day in and day out with 2 kids one on each hip asking for a million things while we are trying to hold down a full time job while clean, cook and juggle those two kids. I am not trying to start a debate on this I was just giving me opionion on the matter. I also never said she "Knew better" than anyone else. Apparently what has happened is a simple reply to a post got blown way out of proporation. And yes I have watched Dr. Phil and Oprah and Nanny911 and super Nanny and some of them have some great advice on pareting but some of them I laugh at cause most people know that crap doesnt work after the cameras are turned off.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Wow...back to topic...I don't have much to add, but I want to say that I think Erika gives some excellent advice on the situation. You have to do what works and what you have to do might not always be your first choice, but what works is just that...what works, whatever that may be. Disciplining isn't something we ever want to do, but it's necessary to do what is effective with each child.

One thing that has always worked for Tanner is the counting method. If he is being defiant, I count to 3, and if he is not listening by 3, he goes to time out, and usually for a long time. Children are not fazed by a couple minutes, and children this age DO know why they are there. Everytime Tanner is in his room for 20 mintues he always knows why he is there, even at this age he did. Children are way smarter than we give them credit for. Follow each one with a talk afterwards. If she understands your words then she can listen to a talk afterwards.

I also think it's important for children to say I'm sorry when they are done being punished. This teaches remorse and respect. I hope it gets better for you. Good luck!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
lol Lisa I knew you wouldn't get all huffy about this and we could chat about it.

I guess instead of "knew better" I should have written "knows enough to give advice..."

Just because someone hasn't been there done that, doesn't mean they can't know about something. I know how it is, because not only do I have 3 small children of my own, I take care of 2 during the day - and if you've read my posts about those two, they are absolutely HORRID children. But it's "true" what they say... at least for me - once you lose control of a child, it's very hard to get it back, and it's wayyyy easier to grasp at what's left of your control over that child when they're young rather than when they're old... well at least that's what seems to be the general concensus.

In any case... maybe the reality tv kids do go back to their ways after the cameras are off... but I have to be that tough to the older boy I take care of - because he has no respect for any authority, either his mom, his teacher, or me. So I had to do some pretty extreme stuff (extreme to some) to ge this attention and let him know I'm serious.

Just to clarify - we are both talking about losing control OF the kids and not losing control ON the kids, right? The way you worded your first sentence is almost making me thin you're thinking that Jenn was saying about KAREN losing control and like, maybe hurting her kids, rather than Karen having out-of-control kids... lol

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Oh and by "that tough" I meant that I have done most of what Erika suggested... 15-20 minute time outs... and with their arms and legs crossed if thy can't stop fidgeting or playing with their limbs. The older kid I watch amuses himself by wiggling his fingers, so it's not a time-out unless he's tied up. And since I can't tie him up.... crossing his limbs is the next best thing.

I'm not the fun parent either....but my kids run when I start counting.

MyLuvBugs replied:
Yep. Saying the same thing basically. And BTW....I'm really glad you weren't offended.

But we all know in our hearts (at least I'm hoping we all do) that if you don't have the love and respect of your kids when they're little, you sure as H*** are going to have it when they're older (AKA: Teenagers ) And....I do agree that something single/non-parent people say is like "WTF are you saying???" but in this instance Jennifer did hit the nail on the head. JMHO.

So, you go Karen.....Take Control, Be the man, Whip 'em into shape, take charge, kick some booty, make 'em jump through hoops, and let them know who's the boss of the show!! Go Gettem!

MyLuvBugs replied:


I'm so glad Jennie that you mentioned the counting method. I actually was going to say that too, but then I remembered......Lorelei is SOOOOO much a smart little smart a$$ that she's learned how to say One, Two, Three. SO now when I say "ONE!" she rattles off "Two, Three" and shakes here butt and looks at me like "Keep on a countin' mom. It's not going to matter!" Little Turd! LOL

But it does work b/c she knows if I get to THREE she's getting a spank on the tush and sent to time out. I just have to remember not to laugh!

MyLuvBugs replied:


OMG! I think I might pee my pants Rocky!! I'm totally going to have to try that. Either that or duct tape her into place some days . LOL (Just kidding BTW!)

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Tanner use to do that too when he was younger. I laughed the first time he did it, I admit. It caught me off guard. Now he knows that mocking mommy will get him in more trouble!

coasterqueen replied: Ok ladies! I got home this afternoon and Megan was being her usual defiant self. I needed to change her diaper and she ran from me and I told her she had to come back to me or she got no more cookies. She was eating a cookie at the time for a snack. So what did she do? She looked at me, gave me a snotty look, turned around and started to walk away. I reiterated the point again and she turned back towards me, slid herself along side the wall (girl acts like an older child or something - I'm in trouble!) but still wouldn't come to me again so I reiterated the no more cookies and that I was not playing games with her and she hung her head and moped her way too me. I was so about ready to laugh because it was HILARIOUS, but I didn't. So I WON!!!!!

Oh are we going to have some fun the next few days. I also bought a special water bottle today to use when she gets out of control. I feel like I'm scolding a pet or something using something like that but hey, if it keeps her listening to me and not going so uncontrollable w/her tantrums that she stops breathing I'll do it.

BTW, I don't have a teen and most of us in this discussion don't, as far as I can recall, so when we are giving advice about teens we haven't BTDT, so how is that any different than having or not having kids. I know how to raise babies/toddlers but heck no one gave me a manual and I'm use I'll be clueless when it comes to the teen years too. Won't we all?

Again, thanks a lot everyone for your advice. Megan and I did have another battle earlier today and I decided she must not understood the situation so I let it be. I guess there may actually be times she doesn't understand, so I'll take that into account as well.

lisar replied:
Hey I completley understand your point. And yes I meant loosing control OF the kids NOT on them.

mom2my2cuties replied: WOW - Karen are you sure you aren't raising my child too??? I am in this same boat right now. I usually HATE to spank, because I am finding, it's less and less effcective with Andrea.

Let me know what works for you because I SOOOOOOO need help with Andrea. Some days I am at my wits end and feel like all day I am threatening with one thing or another and then by the evening, I am the screaming point. Of course, I have been trying to watch it lately because it's just not good for children to be screamed at.


I don't know what your religious beliefs are, but my mother in law suggested this book to me, it's written by a Christian author, and it's worked WONDERS in her son who was just out of control defiant. It's called "Breaking the Will without Breaking the Spirit" and also "Parenting a Strong Willed Child"

boyohboyohboy replied: karen I too wish you the best of luck and patience with the kids..
I also use the counting method, and it works great now ,we rarely get to three, but at megans age it might not work just yet, if she doesnt really understand the number system.
I think on a positive note, when I was reading your posts, about her, I couldnt help but think, wow, how wonderful it will be if she holds on to her strong headedness later in life, and becomes a leader not a follower, and does something really great with her life.
maybe she can take condalisa rice's job!