War in the mid east - Hezbollah declares open war on Isreal

Nina J wrote: http://www.realtruth.org/news/rtalert-0607...CFQ9sDgodvxPwvQ

I would hate to be there right now.

Boys r us replied: Tell me about it!!! Can we sat WWIII????

That whole side of the world is turning into one big battlefield! It's really so sad!

amynicole21 replied: This war freaks me out to no end. These armies are incredibly powerful, and I can easily see this war escalating and spreading much farther than the borders of Israel and Lebanon.

Jeffs Wife replied:
I couldn't agree more. I don't know what this world is coming to but it is very sad and it makes me sick. My oldest son will be 18 in September, he is making plans to go to college in the fall and I am scared to death if Bush doesn't stop this crap, they will have no choice but to start a draft. . It has to stop soon. how many more people have to die?. I live right near one of the biggest army bases that have the most amount of troops over there and every night on the news we hear at least one of our soldiers have died. It is very sad, most of thes mes are 25 and under.......Michelle

kit_kats_mom replied: Ok...I'm going to admit it. I don't know much about the middle east and the hows/whys of why they are all determined to kill each other over there. There are so many different groups involved that I have never been able to keep track. I do know that any kind of war rubs me the wrong way weather it effects me or not. It's effecting someones child and that just makes me sad. Can you imagine the stress that these people must live with every day?

I'd like to learn more but you really need to know the background to understand what each group is fighting for.

Do they make a Middle East Clashes For Dummies book?
Then would someone watch my kids while I take the crash course?

A&A'smommy replied: it scares me to really bad.. but I think I may know what might be coming next....

My3LilMonkeys replied:
You are definately not alone - I can barely keep track of the national news in our country, let alone what is going on elsewhere.

MommyToAshley replied:
Between North Korea and the fighting going on in the Middle East, I am really scared too. But, Bush has nothing to do with this... in fact, until just recently Bush was urging Israel not to retaliate and to resort to peace talks. I dislike war and violence as much as the next person, but I find it hypocritical that we tell another country not to defend themselves. If someone had shot over 100 missiles at New York, don't you think we'd fight back? I am glad that Bush and the US has finally gone on record saying that Israel has the right to defend themselves. I feel bad that innocent people in Lebanon were killed, my heart breaks for the people there. But Lebanon is protecting Hezbollah on their soil. Unfortunately, you can not have peace talks and negotiate with terrorist. You can not rationalize with terrorist. Do you remember when Clinton was in office, Israel was going to give up all the land that was in controversy, and the Palestinians still would not agree to peace? They want to continue to go to war. These are scary times, and I don't know what the answers is.

ashtonsmama replied:


I can't believe it.

boyohboyohboy replied:
" I dislike war and violence as much as the next person, but I find it hypocritical that we tell another country not to defend themselves. If someone had shot over 100 missiles at New York, don't you think we'd fight back? I am glad that Bush and the US has finally gone on record saying that Israel has the right to defend themselves. I feel bad that innocent people in Lebanon were killed, my heart breaks for the people there. But Lebanon is protecting Hezbollah on their soil. Unfortunately, you can not have peace talks and negotiate with terrorist."



I totally agree with MOMMYTOASHLEY

I get worried sometimes that it wont be long before the US is one of these nations that has to deal with daily threats of terror, and blood shed. I pray to God that we dont.

redchief replied: I'm a little confused at the shock exhibited here regarding this very long lived conflict. The Isrealis have been defendinig themselves from radical Islam since the country was formed after WWII. This is not a new conflict. This is the continuation of a very old conflict that has seen short periods of diplomacy. The Palestinians and radical Muslims hate the Jews and don't think Isreal has a right to exist. This is not new, nor is it likely to go away. That is why every adult citizen of Isreal must enlist in the military on reaching adulthood.

boyohboyohboy replied: For me, I think its just that the latest talk of N. Korea making a nuke, and its missle tests just so recent, that any talk of fighting between any nation, is scarey, whether its been around a while or not.
I think its something I have just become more aware of now that I have kids also.
JMO

jcc64 replied: I see the whole conflict, and all of its many offshoots, as tragic and everlasting. There will be no end in our lifetime, and if there were ever to be a conflict capable of destroying the planet, I believe it would originate there. There is no middle ground when one side refuses to acknowledge the other side's right to exist. Where is the room for negotiation in that ? Conversely, the Israelis have no claim to righteousness either. They are brutal - their retaliations cast a wide net that invariably involves the slaughter of innocents- and it's hard to conjure up pity for them either.
I don't believe the Bush administration is responsible for the mess over there- this has been going on for generation after generation, but our shoot 'em up cowboy foreign policy in the region and elsewhere, along with our blind allegience to Israel certainly hasn't quelled the flames either. I believe we need to stay as uninvolved as possible- it's a no win situation for anyone.
This brings me right back to the point I made on the creationism thread last week. All wars and conflicts seem to have their origin in the "my god can beat up your god" argument. It's led me to reject all forms of organized religion, which by their nature involve making someone else's beliefs wrong. This doesn't mean I am not a spiritual person, but I cannot get behind any one belief system. No one has all the answers.

And don't feel bad, Cary. You don't have enough years left on this planet to understand all the conflicts past and present that have gone on in that region. You have the gist right, and ita with everything you said about war in general. That's all you need to know.

coasterqueen replied:
ITA and I think people are looking at it more because the media is talking about it more. The more they talk about war the more people want to think it's because of Bush, the more people will despise him.

holley79 replied: I'm not trying to talk religon here but I swear this is all starting to really creep me out and think about the end of times.

mammag replied:
I completely agree with you!! If this were happening here I would darn well hope we would be attacking with full force. I mean, imagine if we were getting attacked by Canada or Mexico this way. I think it could very well become a larger war at least including Syria and Iran. It is scarey but I think Israel is doing the right thing.

I find it absolutely laughable that anyone would try to make this about Bush...

I agree with Jeannie, this isn't going to end in our lifetime.....sad but true.

jcc64 replied:

I agree with you here, Jeanie, and we all know I am not one to ever give Bush a break, about anything.
But neither is it about the media. It is an important story, and the media has the responsibility to report it, WITHOUT AN AGENDA. People should be concerned about it- we should never turn away from the reality of war. In fact, I believe the media has failed us miserably by not reporting enough about the atrocities of war, all war. If we were forced to confront a visual representation of the fallout of war on a more regular basis, we'd be far less likely to consider it an acceptable "solution". From the catastrophic injuries and deaths suffered by our service men and women, most of whom are very very young, to the children and babies killed in the streets as collaterol damage, and on and on. I think it's unacceptable that we don't see the coffins and funerals of our military on a nightly basis, as well as the destruction of lives caused by the making of war. How much easier it is to dismiss the death w/o actually having to see what it looks like. When I see a scared and bloodied child on the news, it physically hurts me to witness it, but I cannot look away. It is my responsibility to bear witness, particularly if my gov't happens to be the cause of the suffering. As I've said many many times here, there better be a good, no, a HUGE reason to justify the slaughter of someone's child, and in most cases, there just isn't.

When we were talking about god and religion a few days back, I thought of a few simple things.
To me, God is peace, and God is the presence of a conscience.
And the devil, well, to me, the devil is war. And the lack of an active conscience.

CantWait replied: Isreal is no stranger to getting their butts whooped. It's to bad. Canadian troops just pulled out of Golan Heights, and now it looks like all the work they did there is going to be torn apart again.

What's to bad about the situation even more is that if those 2 Ireallie soldiers weren't kidnapped, and were returned like requested then this wouldn't be an issue.

redchief replied: War of any kind and for any reason is brutal and and the injuries and deaths caused by wars are horrifying. I actually agree that the media should show more of the results of armed conflict. Along with that should be the full, unbiased story of how the injuries or deaths occurred (that's the reason the media isn't allowed to film coffins anymore; they left spun the last story - that's a fact). But sometimes there is no choice, but to war. Giving peace a chance must always be the first option, but when that fails, force should definitely be considered, especially in cases where the security of a country's citizens is at risk. If someone shoots at another country, they are not inviting dialogue. They are inviting that country to shoot back in self-defense.

In Israel's case I believe that to be true. Have you ever noticed through history that when Isreal reacts with overwhelming force, things seem to calm for a while? It's true. Even now Lebanon is discussing tossing Hezbollah out of their country to save the rest of her citizens. I look at it this way. If I were standing in a ring surrounded by people with guns, all of them shooting at me every once in a while, but as I stand there, I realize that although they have little guns, I possess a very large one, am I going to fire back? Of course I am, else eventually all the little guns will kill me. Will the results of my counter-attack be brutal? Indeed they will, but maybe the rest of the people with the little guns will realize how devastating my bigger gun is and they'll stop pointing it at me for a while.

Does Israel need the United States to be such a staunch ally? Indeed she does, else she will quickly cease to exist. Fear of what we may do in retaliatioin is one of the reasons that most of the Islamic states tolerate the very existence of Isreal.

There was a comment about Israel being no stranger to getting beaten. Since Israel was created in 1947, they have not lost a major conflict.

mammag replied: I just picked up a copy of "A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict". If I learn any new information I'll let you all know. See what a true nerd I am?

jcc64 replied: But Ed, don't we have an obligation to understand why the people with all the little guns are firing in the first place? Not to be an apologist, but to maybe get some understanding going forward.
It may be an unfortunate truth about humanity that only war and brute force are acknowledged by some, but I do believe we rely far too much on our might to make us right. Nothing will ever be permanently solved by simply pummeling the weaker into submission. Maybe temporarily, but they will rise again, angrier, and by any means at their disposal- namely- terrorism. We have been warring since 9/11- and as someone who travels on the very NY transit systems most likely to be attacked in the future, I for one feel LESS secure, not more. Nothing's better, imo.
Look, I'm a mother before anything else, including being an American citizen. My motherhood informs every opinion, every move I make on this planet, and every death is seen by me as the loss of someone's child, innocent or not. That may sound like an overly simple or unrealistic way of digesting complex foreign policy, but to me, it is a basic truth too easily ignored by too many. Maybe that's why women can't/don't rule most of the world.

mammag replied: Don't you, as a mother, also feel though that you must first protect your own? Sure we can look for diplomatic ways to solve things, try to find the root of the problem. But first and foremost is protecting our own family...our own country. That is what Israel is trying to do. Israel has agreed to a cease fire when Hezbollah guerrillas freed two captured soldiers, rocket attacks on Israel stopped and the Lebanese army deployed along the border. What else can they do? They have to protect their own the same as we would if it were happening here.

There is a time for negotiating, and analyzing but when you are being continually attacked is not the time. Then you must do what ever it takes to defend yourself.

redchief replied: Jeanne, I'm not sure if I ever said this before. Your view isn't only important, it is absolutely vital to the advancement the homo sapien species. It is through dialogue and understanding that tolerance is born. It is where I hope we are headed as a species if we have any hope to survive at all.

All of that being said, the truth of what I already posted regarding Israel cannot be ignored. If they don't defend themselves vigorously, the Jewish State will simply cease to be, for their enemies do not acknowledge their right to exist, and are bent on removing them from their promised land by any means necessary. Since the world has decided Israel has a right to exist, that leaves only violence to uproot her. So, in short, I know why the little guns are pointing at Israel, and for that matter, us. The little guns are pointed at Israel because she is there. They are pointed at us because we publicly support the existence of Israel. That leads to the next obvious question. If we pull out our support of Israel, and Israel ceases to exist, would that cause peace to break out worldwide?

The answer to that queston is glaringly obvious too, and is historically supported. The answer is no. There can be no peace in the world as long as there are human beings in it who believe it is their destiny to rule (megalomania). Kim Jung-Il, the leader of North Korea has a vision of his country becoming a world military and economic power. He diefies himself and allows his country to starve while he barrels toward a nuclear age he cannot afford. Is this a person that can be reasoned with? He sounds historically familiar, does he not?

Nutcases are bad. Nutcases that are religious zealots are worse. Osama bin Laden has stated that Mohammed ordered that all infidels be converted to Islam or perish. Does this sound like a person who can be reasoned with? Yasser Arafat is an example of the failure that will occur when dealing with religious zealots. Arafat spent much of his later years trying to undo the animosity between Israel and the Palestinians. But as his health failed, even after securing a Palestinian state, the younger, more self-assured Palestinians rose up, again proclaiming that Israel has no right to existence. Israel has been trying to live peacefully since it was formed. Palestinians believe they were wronged by the world when the Zionist movement succeeded in securing a portion of "the Promised Land." This is a centuries old conflict that is not based upon politics as much as it is based upon religious fervor.

In conclusion, it is right to desire peace and to create dialogue with the intention of peaceful coexistence. However, until all sides are ready to accept that others beyond themselves have a right to live and rule themselves, it would be foolish to lay down arms. The effort to gain peaceful coexistence should never cease, though.

jcc64 replied: I do, of course, believe we have an obligation to protect our own first, Jeanie. I understand what both you and Ed are saying about Israel, I really do. But when you look at both the economic and military advantages that Israel enjoys as our ally, and how they use that advantage to pummel their obviously disadvantaged neighbors into "submission", it just feels bad to me to have had a hand in that. I know, I know that Hezbollah and al Queda and the current political party in power in Palestine whose name is eluding me right now are unreasonable at best and genocidal/homocidal murderers at worst , are not the sort to sit down and negotiate peace. I get that, I really do. But all I know is that what's been tried thus far hasn't worked. If unbridled force was gonna work- wouldn't it have worked already? Don't we have an obligation to at least consider another approach? I know your next question will be- like what???? And that's a good question to ask, b/c I don't really have a smart answer for that one. But we have never seriously entertained trying to negotiate just a little bit, we're so afraid to look weak, and so we'll never know whether that would calm things. Instead, we just keep fanning the flames, and I fear that at a certain point, they'll be a catastrophic response that will annihilate us all.
You will have no problem shooting holes all over my arguments, I realize that. But I am really uncomfortable with the way our "solutions" in that region are going over. And then again, I'm not sure anything we do can or will change thousands of years of antagonism and hatred. I doubt it. Strange way to digest the teachings of religion- all of it.

luvmykids replied:
I think your other statement about "my god can whoop your god" (or close to that) and this go hand in hand ....many of the "religious" wars or zealots proclaiming that by warring against another they are doing their god's will are in fact, opposite of any kind of spirituality IMHO. Just my 2 cents but I can't stomach or for that matter respect any religion or spirituality that does not include and in fact demand conscience from it's followers.

redchief replied:
Wow, I simply don't see it that way at all, not even a little bit. I see Israel as the underdog in the Middle East. I see a country that only wants it's neighbors to acknowledge their right to live in peace and security. They have conceded all the lands gained after other countries invaded them and lost those particular conflicts including the West Bank and Gaza Strip. As to the question of wouldn't force have worked by now goes, it absolutely has. Israel is still there despite nearly constant war to try and dislodge them.

Yes, Israel is strong because they are our close allies. If it weren't for that alliance Israel would have been destroyed a long time ago.

jcc64 replied: Ed, when you look at a side by side comparison of living standards between the Israelis and the Palestinians, as well as the respective military capabilities- I don't see how you can possibly call Israel the underdog.

redchief replied:
If the problem were simply the Palestinians and Hamas (the currently ruling Palestinian "party"), then I would agree with that assessment, but we can not oversimplify this. The current problem is Hezbollah, who have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Palestinians, except the convenience of a shared enemy. The Palestinians are a mix of Muslims and Christians who were moved when Israel was returned to the Jews after WW II. They were moved because they took the area as "Palestine" shortly after WW I and had the backing of the Axis powers. Axis lost WW II and since the Palestinians were on the wrong side of the end of that war, they lost their claim to Jeruselem and the surrounding area. Too bad; they should have been more careful of whom they went to bed with (politically). If the Palestinians were the only problem facing Israel your argument would have merit, but that's far from the case.

Hezbollah is a radical Muslim terrorist group based in Lebanon and Syria. That adds up to 3 - 1. Add in Iran who has stated that they support any and all efforts to upset Israel and we're up to 4 against one. Add in the Taliban, who is fighting us in Afganistan and states that they too support the destruction of Israel and we're talking 5 - 1, though in fairness the Taliban are not a nation, and at this point not likely to be a problem for Israel since they have their hands full running from the US military.

The US does politically and economically support Israel. They are allies. We're supposed to support allies. Discontinued support from us to Israel would without a doubt result in the destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East. They have earned their country historically and with the blood of their ancestors. They defend their homeland with guts and determination.

You have to understand a little bit of the recent history of the area to see where the "poor" Palestinians feel wronged. Here's the problem. There was not, prior to WW I any such thing as "Palestine," nor was there an Israel. They didn't exist. Prior to WW I the area in question was all part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). After WW I the area was broken up and ruled by the British and the French (the US went back to isolationism after WW I and was not real supportive of the League of Nations, nor did they involve themselves in Middle Eastern policy). The British (not being great fans of the Jews as was the Christian attitude of the time all over Europe) named the area Palestine. Now the the Christians and Muslims who settled there were resentful of British rule and began forming secret alliances with Hitler and Moussolini as the Axis powers gained power in Europe. When the Axis were defeated ending WW II, the Palestinians lost their "homeland," which was really never theirs to begin with. Now the Palestinians claim biblical ownership of the area and feel that Israel should be part of their country. They argue that the only reason they aligned with the Axis during WW II was that the British turned a deaf ear to their concerns. Again, that's too bad. All of the Axis powers suffered in defeat, as they should have for the horrors they caused humanity.

The area previously called Palestine was renamed Israel through the efforts of the Zionist Movement which developed near the end of WW II. The zionists argument was that they deserved the return of their promised land after the Holocaust. I agree. Now in biblical times there were areas called Israel and Palestine. Neither were independent as the entire area was part of the Roman Empire.

Now, let's talk about the living standards of the Palestinians. In the 1994, Israel, after being pressured by the US and other world powers, and in an effort to create stability in the region, vacated the Gaza Strip and Jericho, which were returned to Lebanon and earmarked for Palestinian settlement. Many Palestinians did settle there and did well for themselves (Lebanon's economy is quite healthy). The PLO and Hamas (a PLO faction) were not happy with this arrangement, though because it didn't set up an independent Palestine, so many remained in the West Bank section of Israel. In 2004, in a last ditch effort to appease the Palestinians, and in part because of the remarkable turnaround of Arafat, Israel uprooted hundreds of thousands in the West Bank and turned the area over to the Palestinians, even allowing them to create their own government. It was an upstart area and economically unestablished. The Palestinians were given permission to cross into other areas of Israel to work. Palestinians complained that the work was menial and that they deserved a bigger share of the Israeli GNP. Israel disagreed. When Arafat died, Hamas emerged as the ruling Palestinian party. Hamas has a long history of terrorist action and they rebelled violently against Israeli civilians. Once again Israel felt forced to isolate the West Bank until the Palestinians could get their radical political party under control. Instead of examining their mistakes, however, Hamas promised to continue to fight for what they want; an independent Palestinian state with a share in the Israeli economy. They basically want what they have not earned.

Hamas has allied with Hezbollah, a large Lebanese terrorist group, in an effort to force Israel's hand. In my opinion they are biting the hand that feeds them over and over. It is very hard to feel sorry for these people. They are getting what they're asking for. If Lebanon doesn't do something about Hezbollah, it's entirely likely that Israel will retake the Gaza Strip and Jericho. I wouldn't blame them a bit.