The stimulus bill - what do yall think
lisar wrote: I would like to know what everyone thinks about it. My opinion is a pretty harsh one. I do not like the way any of the money is being used at all.
"Health-care records: $20 billion. Modernize the health care system by computerizing all of the nations' medical records in the next five years. " How is that going to stimulate the economy?
"Medicaid: $87 billion. Increase Federal Medicaid Assistance Percentage so states do not have to cut eligibility for Medicaid due to budget shortfalls." Umm how about making them get a job instead. That might be better.
"Feeding the hungry: $20 billion. Increase food stamp benefits by 13%, and provide support for food banks, school lunch programs and WIC." Okay I can understand helping the food banks and all that but raising food stamps 13% is crap!!! Get a job people. Quit living on government assistance.
Government assistance is supposed to be short term, not a lifestyle. And people here where I am that how they live. They dont want to work, they just want to have babies and live on welfare.
"Child tax credit: Up to $18 billion. Temporary increase in the amount of the child tax-credit that would be refundable." I dont qualify for that either way. It dont make a difference on my taxes
This is what we get out of Obama why is this not surprising. Just like Bush starting out worse though.
PrairieMom replied: I have to look into it more, I have mixed feelings about it, and am not informed enough for a good ol'fashioned PC throw down.  I'll be back when I am educated on it. 
stella6979 replied:
Unfortunately even people who do have jobs can't always afford the health insurance for their children. Avery was covered under Jeff, but he recently lost his job and for me to add her to mine would cost me an additional $800.00/month which is something we just can't afford right now. So for now, she is covered under the Michigan Michild plan (like Medicaid) and I'm so thankful for that. Not being able to afford health insurance sucks big time!!
lisar replied:
Read on about what I said about it though, I think it is great for people who actually NEED it. I was on it when I was pregnant with Lexi. However as soon as I got a decent job I took myself off of it. I am not saying anything about the people who actually need it. Just the ones that take advantage of it.
lisar replied:
I knew you would be in it.
I just really wanna see what everyone thinks about it. They might be able to give me a perspective that I havent thought of.
stella6979 replied:
Oh, I gotcha. I just really hate that I can't afford insurance for her right now. As a Parent, it's just not a good feeling. 
lisar replied:
I completely understand.
BAC'sMom replied: Well atleast they got rid of the $200 million to resod the National Mall. I knew having 2 million+ people there for the inaguration would mess up the lawn. I wonder why they didn't think about that. 
A&A'smommy replied: really and honestly I"m on the fence about it.. I think mostly though its a bit of a crock some of those things aren't going to "stimulate" the economy
lisar replied:
Thats the whole thing, nothing in there is going to stimulate the economy. Didnt they learn that you cant spend your way out of this. It has to do it on its own.
lisar replied:
gr33n3y3z replied:
Oh I know exactly what your talking about I know a few ppl. who abuse the system for their health care to be paid for while preggo then not claiming the father for the kids so they get free health insurance then when school starts they get the name changed to the father thats the type of BS that shoots the health care costs up high and WE pay for it
My2Beauties replied: WOW...I'm not going to comment, I guess some of you have no clue what it's like to be in a down and out situation.
lisar replied:
Of all people I do know what its like. Single Mom, no place to live, no job, and the government wouldnt give me any help all they would do is offer insurance. No food stamps, no afdc, no nothing. Only insurance. I know what its like. No child support nothing. So I do know what its like and that was back when the economy was good.
And I am sorry you are in a tough situation right now. 
gr33n3y3z replied:
I guess your talking about me LOL
Well these ppl. that I'm talking about live in 1.5 and 2.3 mil. dollar homes
So I do know what I'm talking about and thats why it ticks me off bc they get away with it and cheat the system like many others do.
For those who need it cant get it unless they lie now thats wrong
My2Beauties replied:
I understand people cheat the system but there are people who need it severely and this only helps them out. Honestly, the first one I don't understand about making sure all the healthcare records are electronic or whatever, yeah I don't get that, but everything else I believe is needed for the poor and middle class in this country.
And no Lisa I honestly was not referring to anyone in particular.I just don't think you all are giving him a chance to see how this will work.
Wasn't part of his stimulus bill to also create middle class jobs as well, I heard that he was creating jobs for like contruction work, pavers etc..? Was any of that mentioned, has anyone heard? That will definitely help boost the economy.
Hillbilly Housewife replied: What about the small things, that might not make a difference in many people's lives on a day-to-day basis... but will help in the long run?
-adding a vegetarian meal to school menus (or a 2nd one if already in place..) for everyone, not just as a choice
-teaching ppl that paying a credit bill bi-weekly or even weekly instead of monthly can save on interest... it's simple logic, and I'm amazed on how many people only pay once a month.
-put on a dang sweater before raising the temp in your home...
boyohboyohboy replied: you know for sake of really putting personal info out there....I have to say, here is my situation..
I am not sure how I feel about this economic stimulis plan..I am still researching it, and trying to see what is real and what is rumor. I myself was hoping for some good old fashioned cash, even though I disagree that is the answer..
my dh was a trucker driver, he made $65,000+/yr. well he lost his job one day, after we had just upgraded our house, got two cars, and moved..we had nothing to live on..
so we went for 3 months on unemployment, cashed in the retirement savings, and really spent every last dime we had..he searched daily on foot and nightly on line for a job. finally takes a job, that pays him not even half what he made..so we are now a family of 5 living on $22,000/yr. we have to have assistance..we get the kids health care paid for, and with three sickly kids thats a lot. we also have food stamps, and wicc, we have to send in our banking and income every three months..when we use our benefits at the store, I am looked at like scum. I cant go to work with my husbands hours the way they are, so I baby sit to bring in as much as I can. Way to use my good old college education.
anyway, right now, my husband is almost at the cut off line for us NOT qualifying for any assistance at all. so we barely make it with his income and the assistance..
so the opportunity has presented itself for him to have a slight raise..its not much but it would disqualify us from using any further aide, and with out the aide we cant make ends meet, my kids go uninsured, and we go into serious trouble again..even with his raise we cant match what we get in aide..
so getting a job isnt always the answer..the system is broken, when it pays you stay on it...
we are motivated..my dh is the hardest working man I have ever known. we are not lazy and we are not proud..
but we are stuck in a broken system. I dont think Lisa meant to put anyone down, I think she was saying there are people out there that use the system but also I have to say, that the stigma that comes with having to use it, is hard to swallow.
I hope that Obama can come up with some ideas on how to get ahead..
For what its worth, I think that they should pay for people to return to school 100% and also help with the bills while they do it, and then when they get a job, the person pays back so much a month to the government and then people can get ahead..and there is repayment for the next person..
I just felt like I needed to stick up for the people who needed help and explain that its not always black and white, and I dont think my family is going to be so different from others when the economy is in the mess its in and getting worse.
boyohboyohboy replied:
you know maybe the reasoning behind the computerized health records is so that people will be hired to do data inputting??
i dont know..
I am also still thinking this thru.
Danalana replied: I'm not informed on this enough to really comment.
LeaAnn, you shouldn't be surprised that people are doubting. That's what people do when a president proposes something  Remember George W. Bush? He couldn't get things inked on paper good before there were zillions of critics. I think it will always happen. Like I said, I don't know enough about it to comment. I've heard some stuff, but it was just opinions of others...not fact. So I really don't know. I pray it works.
A&A'smommy replied: See I'm on the fence for the whole health care thing... while I think its good because I know LOTS who need it especially right now I'm just wondering where some of the other stuff he is incorporating is going to help at all like the birth control, free birth control is NOT hard and making it more available is not necessarily going to get anyone who doesn't already use it TO use it (and believe me I'm ALL for free birth control there are WAY too many people that do not need to breed!!!), but also there are LOTS who abuse it, around here there are LOTS of people that ENCOURAGE their teens to get pregnant so they can get welfare its HORRIBLE and its getting worse and at the same time there are SO many who are in need of that help right now and we have been there and I'm SOO thankful it was there for us to use while we needed it.
btw does anyone know a good link to read about it I cannot for the life of me find one that has any info worth reading!!
jcc64 replied: Well, I have very strong feelings about the bank bailouts, but I'll stay OT and just talk about the stimulus package. I like Tara am not yet educated on all the details, but I will speak about my general philosophy regarding the government assistance programs you referenced.
When people can't afford health care, or if they have to choose between medication and food or rent, trust me, they are not going to be participating in our consumer driven, capitalist society. They are in survival mode. And even the people that you assume (which is the operative word here) are just lazy and refuse to work, I highly doubt they are "living large" off of government assistance. Exactly where are all of these fabulous jobs that these people are passing up? The unemployment rate is the highest it's been in generations--do you think all of these unemployed people just suddenly decided to sit on their a$$es and let you support them? Is it maybe possible that the reason they're not working is because they can't FIND work? I happen to be one of those people--the entire industry in which I worked no longer exists in this country. There are no jobs in my area of expertise anymore. So I can either move to China, or I can train to do something else, which is what I am currently doing. But in the meantime, my kids need to eat, my mortgage needs to be paid. Is that my fault, am I lazy? I collected the maximum weekly unemployment amount when my company went bankrupt 2 yrs ago, which was $400 pre tax. Where I live, supporting a family of 5 on $400 a week is next to impossible, and if I were a single parent, there would be nothing left after paying the mortgage, heating oil, gas, electric, and food. Most people who collect unemployment don't even get as much as I did--the amount being based upon your former salary. Thankfully, my dh is still working (for now) and he's taking up the slack while I finish my schooling. Not everyone is as fortunate as me. Not by a long shot. Are they bad people? Should they be thrown out in the cold?
Thousands of people are being laid off every day. Read the headlines if you don't believe me. Not lazy people, not people trying to get over on everyone else--just hard-working people like me whose companies couldn't make it because no one is spending money or buying things in the current economy or b/c their jobs went overseas (like mine). I'd like to believe that there's a safety net in this, the wealthiest country on earth, for people like me or Lea Ann or everyone else who are doing the absolute best they can in a very difficult situation. Should everyone be turned out on the street, should children go hungry or die b/c their parents can't afford healthcare? Or should their parents die because they have to choose between life-saving medications or feeding their kids? Is this the kind of society you want to live in, just to insure that a few neighbors down the street aren't getting something for nothing?
Me, I'll accept the reality that a few people are milking the system in order to ensure that the vast majority of hard-working families who are struggling right now can survive these extraordinarily difficult times. And fwiw, whatever paltry handout that these scofflaws that infuriate you so much are receiving is surely a pittance compared to the BILLIONS that we handed over to the banks who precipitated this whole mess in the first place under the Bush administration. Please don't lay this at Obama's feet. He's here to try and clean up the mess.
TheOaf66 replied: its a joke, once again the people that loyally pay their taxes are gonna support the ones that live off the system, it has me so PO'd that I can't even really discuss.
jcc64 replied: Computerizing healthcare records is an effort to streamline the system and cut down on astronomical administrative costs. Our health care comprises 20% of our GDP. That's crazy. Why does it cost so much more to provide health care here than anywhere else in the western world? Are we getting better care, or is there a TON of waste built into the system? Computerizing records is a long term attempt to cut waste.
lisar replied:
I am laying it at obamas feet, thats the thing. Just like I blamed Bush. Bush was horrible at the end but no one ever says anything about the GREAT economy that we had in 2005 thanks to bush, all they talk about is the bad things that he done. And I agree he done more bad things than he did good. My whole thing is that a stimulus package should be used to stimulate the economy, not throw money at things that cant be fixed either way.
"I hope that Obama will eventually be able to bring the best ideas from both political parties together and eliminate the waste and pork that has existed in Washington for years, but doing so will take time. The government, and probably rightfully so, wants to put the stimulus package in action ASAP. As a result, it is going to be filled with all sorts of garbage and pet projects of the bill's authors rather than things that would be really simulative for the economy.
I like Obama and I think that he is the right man for the job, but I remain extremely unimpressed with the stimulus package that he is pushing right now. The government needs to either spend our money wisely or not spend it at all."
And can we talk about something besides the health insurance. Please. There is more to it than that. Thats all I am asking
My2Beauties replied: Thank you Jeanne. My DH was laid off the Friday before Christmas, while it's not permanent, it's also not determined when he'll be called back. I'm crossing my fingers for April but it's looking grim  my DH made $60k last year, if you divide that into bi-weekly checks, 26 checks he was grossing over $2300 on average, he'd bring home around $1500-1600, now every 2 weeks he's bringing in a whopping $610 in unemployment. Railroad unemployment is worse than state unemployment. That's almost 2/3 less than what we're used to. We have child support, daycare ($1000 per month total in just those 2 bills), 2 car payments, car insurance, mortgage, gas, food, 3 other signature loans that we're paying on. We're not lazy I work 40+ hours per week and DH has been busting his butt doing side work (roofing, construction) etc.. as much as he can to make any extra money......we can't make ends meet yet we can't get assistance either so I'd hate to think what it's like for people in an even worse situation than we are in. We just need to have more compassion and not assume that everyone who lives off of gov't assistance is lazy and layingup having a bunch of kids!
gr33n3y3z replied: The people who need the help they should have it no ifs ands or buts about it.
But the people that I'm talking about should be caught and made to pay the system back if it was only that easy I guess.
I just hope he can come up with something that will work and not get abused like its been for all these years then maybe people wouldnt mind so much helpping someone out in the time of need.
lisar replied:
Exactly. You just said it better than I could I guess.
Danalana replied: LeaAnn, I know there are people who need gov. assistance. My mother is disabled and lives on assistance. She truly needs it, no doubt.
But there are thousands of people around here who don't. People who purposely have more and more kids so they can get more assistance. I've heard many brag about it. They get the help and then they're out regularly getting hair and nails done. I know what you were saying Jeanne. We need it for those who truly need it. But there needs to be a better way...or at least a way so that people can't live the good life on gov. assistance. Thank GOD for assistance--I know there are so many who couldn't live without it. It just shouldn't be a free ticket, if you know what I mean. I think the way people cheat the system, whether it's welfare or income taxes...or whatever...is a big player in the decline of our economy. I get that there have to be jobs in order for people to get off of assistance, but I have known these people to cheat the system even when the economy was just fine. How in the world do we fix that stuff?
lisar replied:
Just to add:
When I worked in a restaurant I had this lady come in there with her 4kids, she spent $70.00 on dinner. And that was alot, this wasnt a high fancy place. As she was leaving she asked me to sign a piece of paper for her saying that she asked me for a job. I asked her why and she said because she is on welfare and they want her to look for a job.  I was mad. I actually asked her why didnt she just ask me for a job and fill out an application? She actually told me she didnt want a job, she just gets people to sign the form because most will just sign it. I refused to sign the form because she refused to fill out an application.
Those are the people that dont deserve it, and dont truly need it.
stella6979 replied:
LeAnn, I know exactly what you're saying. Jeff was let go from his job shortly before Christmas as well and rather than collecting unemployment, he decided to come work with me. Here he is making $10.00 less per hour than what he was making at the hospital, but he'd rather work than not. And he has applied for EVERYTHING from security to salesman to janitoral work, but nothing has panned out. I'm pretty sure that we'd qualify for assistance, but thankfully for now, it hasn't come to that. Aside from the house payment, car payment/insurance, food, and utilities we really don't have any other bills, but we are still just getting by. And I can honestly say that it's a hard pill to swallow having to ask family for financial help. 
A&A'smommy replied:
I know the feeling LeaAnn while my husband has never been without a job we been to the point where are are barely making it and didn't really know how we got there, but we also didn't qualify for ANY help which sucks because we really needed it.. but we got through it!!! You guys will get there and i REALLY hope he gets called back soon!!!
I'm honestly glad its there I just wish there was a better way, people who really need it get screwed and people who get it just to get it are screwing those who need it.. of course now I'm not sure there are a lot of people left who are able to screw the system BECAUSE of the unemployment rate is SOO high right now...
punkeemunkee'smom replied: I am still confused as to how the government spending more money (running up MORE debt and borrowing MORE money from forgien interests) when the economy is in the crapper is going to help anything..... 
I agree with that too. The major problem I have with the welfare/WIC/Medicaid system is that people who do NEED the help are not the ones who get the help. YOu have to be so far down by the time they will look at you for benifits it is insane...people who have lost their jobs but that had one to lose in the first place are NOT the ones I see using benifits in line at Walmart. We did not have insurance and I was having major health issues-we did not qualify for Medicaid to try and help me get the tests I needed...ones that honestly were a possible life and death answer. Bill was hurt at work (no worker's comp) and did not qualify for any help-he has been paying taxes for 22 YEARS! Therefore he has been working on a torn ACL for 5 years...The system is flawed and to dump more money into that sink hole is just what Troy said a WASTE of our hard earned money!
MomToJade&Jordan replied: I'm a single Mom who works 2 jobs. No I'm not currently on assitence, infact I had to be talked into applying for it. The thing is I didn't want to be included in that group of people who do abuse the system. There are people out there who are working hard, but still not able to make ends meet. How sad that these people are looked upon badly because they need that assitence. I have a goal this year and that is to get out on my own. I have had so many false starts since my divorce, but I am determined. I am going to need that assitense if I am going to do this. I don't plan on being on it forever, but I'm living on a single income and I have two children to raise. Still I will get looks when I try to buy food with stamps because of the stigma around it. Funny thing is because of this economy applications for food stamps are up. With all of the layoffs that are happening no ones future is secure. How will you feel if you woke up tomorrow and found yourself in the same situation?
PrairieMom replied:
Nope. We put in all our own data. In MY hospital situation it will actually cause the loss of jobs because we have ward secretaries that are now putting in orders and taking care of filing in charts and all that. When we make the final change over all those people will be out of jobs.
My understanding of the computerized records is to reduce heath care costs by reducing the number of mulitple testing and things that that are being done. If you have a x-ray at the clinic and get sent over to the hospital they can just bring the results up on the computer instead of having to take another one, and having it read by the Dr. again. Things like that.
lisar replied:
I was thinking the same thing, that it could cut jobs.
lisar replied:
I have been in that situation. Its on the first page.
boyohboyohboy replied:
I wonder how the justify adding this to the package then if its going to hurt jobs?
I am trying to find a page that really just lets you read the bill have you found anything yet?
PrairieMom replied: I am having a heck of a time finding where everything is listed out item by item so I can form can opinion on the thing. 
Basically, I think we need Job creation. Bottom line. If that means building a water park In Miami, then so be it. It will create jobs ( as long as they don't hire illegals... Not getting into it... ) and in the end it will bring in more tourism $ to the state.
I think that some of the more questionable items in the package could be more creative ways of creating jobs, that I maybe don't personally understand. If we can't get people working our economy is going to go right down the drain we are currently circling.
I don't think that just sending out checks to people is the right answer, I know that personally, if the government sent me $ right now, I would not be stimulating anything with it but my savings account. There is no way I am going to go out and buy something with it when I might need it to keep my house or car next year.
And as far as our system being broken, what about something like "workfare" instead of welfare? You want assistance? fine. We will give it to you, but you will be trained in a trade while you are collecting it, and after you are trained, you will be able to work. No more milking the system.
PrairieMom replied:
I think that in the end the amount they will be able to save will out weigh the jobs that are lost. If we can save every patient in my hospital $500 the benefits are much greater than the loss of the 150 or so jobs, each person making $8 an hour.
and No, I haven't found a good site.
MommyToAshley replied: It's not a stimulus package, it's a spending spree with everything under the sun that has nothing to do with stimulus thrown in there.
I've been against all the bail-outs since the beginning, and I am not a fan of the stimulus packages. But, if they are going to do it, they should do it right. I have no problem with adding in the healthcare and unemployment benefits for those who are hurting because they lost their jobs. I do have a problem with just about everything else in the stimulus bill. They should cut taxes, and give incentives for keeping jobs here in the U.S. Obama promised when he was campaigning to give a tax credit to businesses for every new job created and for keeping jobs here instead of sending them overseas. He has already gone back on that... his reason was that there had to be some give and take and he couldn't get everything he wanted. Well, I say get rid of the rest of the crap and keep the part that is going to create jobs. The construction type jobs are not due to start until 2010 or later... people need jobs now.
TheOaf66 replied:
ITA with all of that
MommyToAshley replied:
Here's the complete list
http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/PressSummary01-15-09.pdf
PrairieMom replied:
THANKYOU! Geesh!
off to look it over!
Mommy2Isabella replied: DITTO to Dee Dee and Troy!
That is not a Stimulus ... not one part of it.
Stimulus would be creating jobs, and bringing tourism or something!
PrairieMom replied: Okay, so in a nutshell...
Clean, Efficient, American Energy: To put people back to work today and reduce our dependence on foreign
oil tomorrow, we will strengthen efforts directed at doubling renewable energy production and renovate public
buildings to make them more energy efficient.
• $32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing
for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
• $16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
• $6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes.
Transform our Economy with Science and Technology: We need to put scientists to work looking for the
next great discovery, creating jobs in cutting-edge-technologies, and making smart investments that will help
businesses in every community succeed in a global economy. For every dollar invested in broadband the
economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
• $10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation.
• $6 billion to expand broadband internet access so businesses in rural and other underserved areas can link
up to the global economy.
Modernize Roads, Bridges, Transit and Waterways: To build a 21st century economy, we must engage
contractors across the nation to create jobs rebuilding our crumbling roads, and bridges, modernize public
buildings, and put people to work cleaning our air, water and land.
• $30 billion for highway construction;
• $31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long term
energy cost savings;
• $19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments;
• $10 billion for transit and rail to reduce traffic congestion and gas consumption.
Education for the 21st Century: To enable more children to learn in 21st century classrooms, labs, and libraries
to help our kids compete with any worker in the world, this package provides:
• $41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion), IDEA ($13 billion), a new School
Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
• $79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cutbacks to key services, including $39 billion to local school
districts and public colleges and universities distributed through existing state and federal formulas, $15
billion to states as bonus grants as a reward for meeting key performance measures, and $25 billion to states
for other high priority needs such as public safety and other critical services, which may include education.
• $15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500.
• $6 billion for higher education modernization.
Tax Cuts to Make Work Pay and Create Jobs: We will provide direct tax relief to 95 percent of American
workers, and spur investment and job growth for American Businesses. [marked up by the Ways and Means
Committee]
Lower Healthcare Costs: To save not only jobs, but money and lives, we will update and computerize our
healthcare system to cut red tape, prevent medical mistakes, and help reduce healthcare costs by billions of
dollars each year.
• $20 billion for health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients
and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.
• $4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments.
Help Workers Hurt by the Economy: High unemployment and rising costs have outpaced Americans’
paychecks. We will help workers train and find jobs, and help struggling families make ends meet.
• $43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.
• $39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer
provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
• $20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.
Save Public Sector Jobs and Protect Vital Services: We will provide relief to states, so they can continue to
employ teachers, firefighters and police officers and provide vital services without having to unnecessarily raise
middle class taxes.
• $87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.
• $4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding.
PrairieMom replied: I can see how about 50% of that stuff could help. I don't know about the rest. I think that they are looking ahead into the future on some of that stuff, when what we really need is immediate help. Like its lacking the sense of urgency that I am feeling right now.
my2girls replied: Here is a line by line layout as what went to Congress:
http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf
Boo&BugsMom replied:
I was going to say this same exact thing, only I wasn't sure how to word it. This would #1, make my job SOOOO much easier , and #2, would cut out a lot of wasted money on "paper" which then could be used for salaries and more jobs.
lisar replied:
Thanks, I was trying to find more actual detail than what I had.
My2Beauties replied: Honestly from what Tara posted I think this is a good plan, I really do. I see this helping us in the long run. It's going to take Obama's entire 4-year run to clean up this economy in it's current state.
Oh and I'm sorry if I snipped at anyone earlier today. We've had no power for 2 days, Aubrey was up coughing all night last night until the point that she puked everywhere, I was at MIL's house, slept on an itty bitty loveseat last night, the other older kids (Des & them) would not shut up in the other room they were being so loud, my IL's leave every freaking TV in their house on and can actually sleep like that, they were soooooooooooo loud, I was so cramped up, my tailbone is bruised from sledding yesterday, DH and I are arguing over whether or not to get a hotel room tonight or not (I want to for obvious reasons, he doesn't, yeah cuz he can sleep through a trainwreck and had the big ol' couch). Either way I'm not sleeping over there. I was almost in tears this morning when him and I got into it over whether or not to get a room because I've litereally had an hour of sleep I am exhausted. My surgery is next week on Tuesday and I'm scared to death that our power isn't going to be back on by then and I'll be re-couping at someone else's house, they are saying anywhere from 7-10 days. There are 205,000 people in Louisville with no power, 500,000 in the state of Ky, they have declared our state a state of emergency. We have seen power trucks from Georgia and everywhere else down south. It's awful here. DH said he saw about 6-8 power trucks heading towards our area..please hope and pray my power comes back on today or I'm gonna be in a not so good mood the next few days So I'm so sorry if I seemed snippy earlier.
moped replied:
lisar replied:
MommyToAshley replied:
I agree, it all sounds great on the surface, until you think about where the money is going to come from.
Let's just take one line item (the broadband to rural areas) as an example. I think it would be great to expand broadband to all the rural areas, and I personally would gain as it would actually help to increase the income in our business. I'm all for this. But, where is the $6 billion going to come from? The central banks are going to pay for it by printing more money, which is going to cause inflation, which will cause minimum wage to go up, which will cause businesses to raise their prices again. So... in the end, the "stimulus" will do the opposite of what it is intended to do. Wouldn't it make more sense to offer these companies a tax incentive to build broadband in the rural areas, and another tax incentive for each employee they hired. Then, the gov't is not paying out money, so there is no need to print or borrow more money. And it will still bring in more income from taxes than it would without the incentive because 15% in taxes from the Billions of dollars made by these companies is more than 30% of nothing. Jobs have been created without the gov't paying a dime.
If you don't think that makes sense, think of the gov't as your own household. I am sure you can think of things that you really need or want to fix up around the house. But, if you have fallen on hard times, is the right thing to do to go out and spend more money and put it on credit and go more into debt? Sure, you want to make sure the necessities of your family members are met -- food and shelter -- but the extras have to wait until there's expendable income.
And, LeaAnn, I am sorry you are having such a rough day. I hope things look up for you.
PrairieMom replied:
I definitely think that the benefits are out weighted by the cost in some of those things. The rural broad band thing being one of them.
I don't know the right answer, I am just along for the ride, and I'm withe knuckling it all the way.
I do know that if they sent me cash, the only thing I would stimulate with it is my savings account.
redchief replied: I'm going to study it further before I respond.
coasterqueen replied:
Oh I wasn't going to do this since I've been gone so long and don't really feel like arguing with anyone, so I hope I don't get flamed  . I just really want to post how I feel and how I've been trying to embrace for the possible worst, lol.
First off I completely agree with you Dee Dee on this. I am all for help if it's needed. I think there are a lot of things in this stimulus bill that is well, crap. I must say first and foremost that I have only heard snippets of what is in the stimulus bill and I also have not read every comment in this thread. I know that EVERYONE is lining up to be in this stimulus bill.....including the Porn industry.???? HUH? Yeah, I was shocked when I heard that one, but whatever. I also know first hand how people are lining up to be in this package, because my DH is running around frantic about it. His office is getting calls left and right from state offices, government offices, public offices, etc wanting bids on buildings and plans so they can submit it for the stimulus package. It's been nuts and quite frankly a lot of it really doesn't need to be done. But hey, when someone is offering money EVERYONE will run to it, right?
I'm not going to comment much on wic/medicaid, etc, because I have very strong beliefs on this and probably aren't along the lines of most here. I do believe that SOME (not all) people who say that they are really having tough times and need assistance, really aren't looking fully at their lives and what they REALLY could give up to make it. It was actually last night that I understood this more because Dh and I were talking about what would happen to us if things get worse. I've been thinking about this a lot lately because for the 1st time in 9 years my boss gave me a less than desirable bonus and a less than desirable raise because our member companies were bracing for a bad year, and quite frankly that will never happen where I work, but everyone is trying to be practical. DH didn't even get a raise. All senior staff got NOTHING this year. All staff lower than senior level got a 3% cost of living adjustment raise. SO that being the case, my DH's checks are LESS than they were last year because insurance went up, but his income didn't. It sucks. I thought we'd never be in a situation where our income wouldn't increase yearly. Now I know that's not terrible compared to others so I'm trying not to whine. I guess what I'm saying is it finally opened my eyes a bit. But last night I told Dh I was scared, scared of our financial future. Of course he said we would be fine. That there are TONS of things we could give up in order to survive, even off one income. We don't need cell phones, internet, cable, elaborate spending on birthdays, holidays, etc. We CAN get by as many can, but when you lose income you tend to forget what you REALLY SHOULD give up to get by. There are a ton of us out there that may have one person lose a job and they say "we are struggling to get by", but are they? Would they if they didn't go out to restaurants, get their hair done, buy trinkets for the kids, have internet, cell phones, cable, etc, etc, etc???? Again, I truly believe those that REALLY NEED assistance should get it.
My mother has been without a job for almost 2 years now. She's had temp jobs here and there, but nothing permanent, nothing of a steady income. She is on unemployment, which pays her NOTHING really since she only made $15,000 a year before that. It's just my mom and dad. Now they are struggling, but they are struggling because they have chosen to fight to stay above water WITH all their little perks (cable, cell phone, etc, etc, etc).
Some that I know are out of jobs and for quite some time are out because they can't find another job in their field. I'll tell you if I lose my job tomorrow and can't find one that I'm "qualified" for with my degree, I'll go work at McDonald's. Whatever I need to do to support my family, despite my pride, etc.
Ok, I'm rambling. It's been a long time in posting, and I'm not here to debate anymore. I guess I just needed to get my feelings out and how I realized that things are tough, could get tough for MY family, but there are a lot of things I know now I could give up for good if needed. I know my MIL and FIL live off roughly $15,000 a year, the two of them do and they have a wonderful life without all the trinkets we really don't need. They grow their own food, she sews to make her own decor in her home, and they just conserve like crazy and live happily on $15,000. It's hard. Boy it would be hard for me, but like Dh reassured me last night - we could do it if we had to and life would still be fulfilling.
One thing I heard a couple of weeks ago on this stimulus package put things in perspective for me. The man said this regarding the stimulus package:
You look at the stimulus package and realize it hasn't worked for MANY other presidents who've had to do the same. So it's like going in to talk to your boss and saying "Boss, I found this need idea, this neat project to get the company more money. The boss asks what it is. The worker tells him. The boss asks if this has ever worked before. The worker says "no, we've tried it a half a dozen other times and it never worked, but we think it will this time." The boss says "sure, go for it, spend whatever you need to try to make it a success".
That just cracked me up because it's really true. We've tried and tried to make these stimulus packages work before, by several other presidents (FDR is one of them I think) and IT DIDN"T WORK so why do we seem to think it will now?
boyohboyohboy replied: I miss your posts Karen!
TheOaf66 replied:
welcome back Karen and I agree with your long post 
I think people that get laid off because of cut backs should get unemployment BUT should actively seek another job and not just live off of unemployment.
Single parents who have to work should get some aid for daycare etc.
There is a big difference between NEEDING assistance because of uncontrollable circumstances and WANTING aid because you won't change your situation that is within your control
coasterqueen replied: Thanks. Yeah, it was a long post and I do tend to ramble somewhat terribly. I NEVER can get my point across exactly how I want it too.
PrairieMom replied: Karen, its great having you back in the debate! I miss your POV.
coasterqueen replied:
Thanks.  I'll never fully give my POV because I am a minority in my thinking here. I don't know if it's because I work in politics and am just a bit jaded about it all? 
PrairieMom replied:
well, you should. Who cares if no one agrees with you. here is the thing... and its OT but what ever.
I look at parenting club as an opportunity to learn. Here I get the POV of people from all over the country, actually, world wide, all ages, ethnicity, backgrounds, and religions.
Where else can you enter a "room " with that much diversity and have a conversation? Its great and a blessing. We don't all agree, it would be creepy if we did, but I have learned so much from everyone here, on many many topics. It has transformed me as a person, and a mother.
So, anyway, that's what I think.
Back to politics... carry on!!
jcc64 replied:
Well, let's examine the reality of working a minimum wage job. After you get done paying for childcare, what's left--a dollar or two? So maybe by the end of an 8 hr shift, you'll have $16-20 dollars. Can you get all your bills paid with that? Even if you do eliminate all the lavish extras you assume that everyone on unemployment refuses to give up? Is a doctor's visit considered an extravagance as well? How about heating oil? What about a car repair?
We've had these debates here before, and it's probably the single biggest issue that boils my blood, tbh. I can't for the life of me understand why so many people have such punishing, uncharitable feelings towards those who are having a difficult time, including some of our own friends right here at PC. It's hard enough to be caught in the downward spiral that is our economy right now w/o being made to feel ashamed. Is this Christ-like? I guess that's what I can't wrap my head around. I think of this board as having very Christian sensibilities. I've never associated with so many people who describe themselves as devout. We just had an 8 page thread about scripture. While I freely admit I am no biblical scholar, I was raised a Catholic and received all the sacraments, and I think I have a fundamental understanding of the teachings of Christ. Would he turn away from the poor, would he accuse them of being worthy of their misery and insist that they're just not working hard enough, that they're lazy, that they have bad character? Or would he be asking what he could do to ease the burden, to ameliorate the suffering of someone in need, even if only to offer a kind word? Could someone please point me toward the sections of the Bible that specifically address the poor? Does it say something about them all being a bunch of lazy 'hoes who just spit out babies to make money?
I'm quite certain that this post will spur a lot of activity, and I'm prepared for people to say that charity is not the responsibility of the government, that we should practice personal responsibility. And I will respond by saying that at times like these, when so very many people are living at the margins or below them through no fault of their own, we can't rely on charitable institutions alone, we have to instead institutionalize charity. The free market, every-man-for-himself gig is up, it's been a long run of that, and look where we are now. It's time for the government to step in and help. Yes there need to be safeguards and limits and incentives to work and all that good stuff. But we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt. We can't always be so quick to assume the worst of people that are in a bad way, assume that they only have kids to make a profit or get over on the system. The vast majority (by a lot) of people that live below the poverty line are children. Regardless of what you may feel about their parents, they deserve a shot at success, or even just at life itself. If it means I have to give up some of my hard-earned money to help them, so be it. I don't particularly like my hard-earned money going toward cleaning up the mess we made in Iraq, but that's also my responsibility as a citizen of this country. No one bats an eye at the astronomical amount of money that we have spent and will continue to spend on that war. What do we have to show for that, exactly? We're building schools and repairing infrastructure over there, but we can't do it here because it costs too much??
And about the stimulus package itself. I guess I am just completely out of step with everyone here, maybe I've drunk too much of the Obama Kool-Aid. I honestly don't see anything in Tara's post that seems wasteful or inappropriate to me. Yes, some of the solutions are long-term, but we can't snap our fingers and expect problems of this magnitude to disappear with a quick fix. They were a long time in the making, it's gonna be a long recovery. Investing in green technology is HUGE, imo, it will create jobs immediately, it will reduce our carbon footprint (the biggest on earth), and it will help reduce dependence on foreign oil, which will ease Middle East diplomatic issues. Where's the downside in that?
I think individual stimulus checks are stupid--they solve nothing. People spend based on anticipated income, not on a one-time "gift." So, if I have to pick one part of the stimulus plan I think is bad, that would be the one.
And finally, I hope that no one feels personally singled out by my comments. This is my life philosophy, and it's something I feel very very strongly about. I speak accordingly. Please don't take any of my commentary as a personal attack. It's not directed at anyone specifically, more a general disagreement over socio-political views.
TheOaf66 replied:
not with me Karen, we are usually in the same opinion about things
So in my eyes you're in the majority 
jcc64 replied: Karen, if you think YOU'RE in the minority, how do you think I feel???????
lisar replied: I am with Karen in saying that if I lost my job tomorrow that I would go and work at Mcdonalds to help in any way I could to support my family.
And yes I think it would help and yes it would be worth it to go and work there, something is better than nothing.
And again the stimulus package has never worked for past presidents so why keep trying it again. I have to agree with that. Its time to try something new.
And Obama hasnt made good on any promise that he made in his campaign. All about the whole lobbyist thing. Then why did he appoint 11 KNOWN lobbyist? That is so funny to me. We got change allright it just aint the kind alot of people were thinking.
And the person he appointed to be head of the IRS owed 22,000.00 in back owed taxes. He paid them with no penalties or interest what so ever, that is such crap to me, I owed the IRS $98.00 and didnt know it and now when I find out about it, its already above a thousand because of penalties and interest. How come I gotta pay that when he didn't.
Politics is a cruel place where they all run their own agenda, and could care less about people like us honestly.
Edited to add this that I just found:
"
Please pass me the Kool-Aid. Barack Obama has been president less than a week and he has already most likely made this country less safe by ordering the suspension of military tribunals for terror suspects, ordering the closure of the Guantanamo Bay detention center, closing the CIA offshore “black sites” and limiting interrogation techniques to only those listed in the Army Field Manual. Osama Bin Laden must be dancing in his cave, but think for a moment how the families of the victims of 9-11 must feel.
There have been more scandals in his transition than most presidents have in their entire administration. And let’s see, he has appointed an attorney general who orchestrated the pardons of known terrorists as well as that of a financier who aided and abetted an enemy country. He appointed Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State notwithstanding the fact that her husband has collected nearly half a billion dollars from foreign countries and despots — no conflict of interest there we’re told. He has appointed a socialist, Carole Browner, to head up a new White House office coordinating energy and climate change issues — start waving goodbye to coal, oil and gas development and the jobs that go with it. And to top it all off, the only person qualified to head up the Treasury Department which includes, of course, the IRS, is a known tax cheat, Timothy Geithner. You better make that a pitcher of Kool-Aid.
Polling data has shown that the Obama voters were some of the most ill-informed voters in history but I guess this is what we can expect when politics becomes nothing more than “American Idol” on steroids. Well, I for one will pray every day that Obama and his policies fail because each and every “success” will drive another nail in the coffin of liberty."
coasterqueen replied:
I really DID not want to get into a debate and you said things you said weren't directed at anyone here, but in a way they were, especially since you quoted me.
I know not EVERYONE can do what you quoted me on and I thought I had said that. But there are people who could. I am ALL for assistance, which I repeatedly said. I guess the point I was trying to get across is there are a lot of people out there, including myself at times, that say they are barely getting by, when in reality they are barely getting by because they choose not to give up the "extras". I never said everyone on assistance isn't doing that. Anyone who is struggling so terribly that they need assistance, should get it, but they should also give up going out to eat at restaurants, having a cell phone, getting their hair done, buying ANY presents for your children/yourself, shouldn't even be on the internet, watching cable, etc. KWIM? Sure it sucks and the thought of having to give up all of that if we hit hard times is unbearable and bratty to be honest, I know that. I mean, DH looked at me last night and was like seriously Karen, we CAN survive, but all these extras you have would have to go and I guaranty you life would still be fulfilling. It opened my eyes up when he said that last night, really. Because I'm a big brat. The thought of having to give up all those things are terrible, but I think I'm an even bigger brat to say that I'm barely getting by if I still kept all those things, kwim? I know many people IRL who are that way, including myself at times, and really it's terrible. Now those people aren't on assistance.
Again, I guess I was trying to say that all of us, not just those who are on assistance and struggling say we have hard times, when truly it might not be as "hard" if you gave up the extras.
I also never claimed to be Christian or not, and was not apart of whatever Christian debate you are speaking of.
I think my husband is rubbing off at me, because his view is survival of the fittest. That there should not be a stimulus package, that this is like evolution weeding out the weakest. I asked him last night what if we become one of the weak, and he responded "so be it". The thought and response scared the crap out of me, especially when thinking of my children, but....well I'm not even sure what to say to that. I just know my husband will fight his hardest to make sure we aren't one of those weak. His opinion was, we could go live down in the woods, Karen, and still survive and have a fulfilling life.
You think I'm hard core Jeanne, you should meet my husband.
TheOaf66 replied:
u know lisa speaking of taxes I am curious about somthing
when we owe money we have a strict time in which to get it paid but when we are OWED money, it is whenever
For example...out property taxes this year, had to be paid by this certain time and we were getting a whopping $70 back. A week after they go it they sent a letter saying we got your payment and you will get $$$ back. You should receive your refund in the future within 3 weeks...if you don't get it please call.
How come we can't say "oh no, you have to get it to me before Jan 1st or there will be interest tacked on for everyday late that it is"
Oh if only I ran the world
TheOaf66 replied: I guess the point I was trying to get across is there are a lot of people out there, including myself at times, that say they are barely getting by, when in reality they are barely getting by because they choose not to give up the "extras".
I am guilty of this to Karen 
The thought of giving up my Satelite
No NFL network or ESPN
No Food Network
No VH1
oh the thought of that makes me shiver
lisar replied:
I know how that goes.
Hillbilly Housewife replied: I agree 100 % Karen....especially:
If you're broke, cut your cable, get rid of your cell phone, stop buying premade foods and learn to cook, stop shopping for clothes at department stores and start shopping at thrift stores, and for crying out loud, get off the 'net. You really think ppl aren't judging you when you complain you have NO MONEY to feed your children yet you're spending x amount a month on internet??? hello...
It irritates me to NO END when I hear someone complain about their lack of money, and turn around and mention they just bought a cute new pair of jeans, a new book, got their hair done, bought a pet.. etc etc.. Seriously. If you can afford to spend 30$ on ordering pizza for ONE MEAL, imagine what that 30$ could have fed your family for, buying a couple cans of sauce, some pasta, some onions.. anyway I digress. I have NO PITY for ANYONE who complains about being broke, and complains about it ONLINE. Get over yourself and cut the luxuries.
It makes me SO ANGRY I could just spit. 
lisar replied:
I am guilty to. I still have internet at home, cell phones, and cable. Those are on the top of the list to go when I need them to
lisar replied:
I can make $30.00 go a long way on food if I need to. Its called chicken patties and tater tots. LOL
coasterqueen replied:
And not only that they CHOSE to get themselves into debt. Including myself. I can guaranty you if Dh or I lost our jobs tomorrow the debt alone would cause us to sink. We could give up all the extras, but the debt alone would hurt us badly. It's sad and I feel disgusting to admit it, because we have a lot of debt and in all fairness to my husband, it's not his fault....it's my bratty fault. 
MommyToAshley replied:
I value your comments and as you will see above, we agree a lot on what we think is wrong and where we need to be. But, we just have a different philosophy on how to get there. I also don't see you in such a minority. There are many here that agree with you. And, I actually liked Obama when he was campaigning. However, I am a bit disappointed that he hasn't stuck up for the things that I liked about his platform. Mainly, the tax cuts he was going to give to businesses for job creation and I am saddened he has dropped the whole issue of health care. Although, I will cut him some slack on the health care as he's only been in office a week. I didn't agree with his health care plan, but our health care system needs fixing and I was hoping it would spark some debate that would result in worthwhile medical reform.
coasterqueen replied: BTW, see, this is why I didn't want to post and have truly stayed away for so long for these reasons, but I'm not truly bashing those who need assistance.
Like Stacy, I commend you for the amount of money you live off of and don't think you are terrible for the assistance you get. I started re-reading what I posted and wondered if those who posted on this thread about their tough times, may think I'm judging them and I'm truly not. I know it may seem that way.
Arrgggh, I'm frustrated with myself now, because I know someone is going to walk away from here upset by my words.
coasterqueen replied:
Yeah, I'm SO interested in what happens with Blagojevich's criminal trial. He is going to attempt to bring down some people with him in Illinois politics and I know there are some REAL guilty parties in Obama's bunch. I believe the EX-governor even mentioned one in his closing argument at the impeachment tribunal yesterday. It will be very interesting.
Hillbilly Housewife replied:
don't be.... It'll happen anyway.
Nobody's pointing the finger at anyone else.
Kaitlin'smom replied: I think they are trying to lump way to much in the same thing. Me personaly am mad at ohians who voted against putting in a casio which woudl have created so many jobs, sure we may not need one but why not? Why let that money go to other states we need that money and we need the jobs.
DH got lat go in september and has not been able to find work in his field around here, he did get a couple offers, he had to turn them down, it was not enough $$ and no he is not looking to make big bucks, but he has to make a certian ammount in order for us to pay our bills and afford child care again. Now when she goes to 1st grade it might be different as we woudl not need her cared for but for after school and we might be able to work something out there.
There is no clear answer but jobs are one of the biggest things we need, that and stop outsourcing jobs over seas.
TheOaf66 replied:
don't stress Karen, you will get flamed for whatever you say around here. Have a position and stick to it, that is my philosophy. If you try and change things or alter your thinking because it might offend someone then you are compromising your own value system.
You have to project your beliefs...but in a polite way 
Kaitlin'smom replied:
MommyToAshley replied:
You're probably upset with me then. There was a loop-hole that would have allowed the taxes from the casinos to go out of state... we may not have seen the benefits of one single dollar from the taxes generated from the casino. And, I am not sure all the mob and criminal baggage that comes along with the casino business would have been worthwhile.
Kaitlin'smom replied:
well no not with an individual but with the whole idea, the loop whole made me mad and I know why it failed, I get so annoyed we get good ideas and then they have to screw it up with either bad wording or loop holes that scare people. why do they have to make this so complicated?
lisar replied:
Dont be upset.
jcc64 replied: As I said in my post, none of my comments were directed at anyone specific. And Dee Dee, despite the fact that we very often don't see eye-to-eye, what I respect most about you and Ed in particular is your willingness to depart from ideological dogma on a case-by-case basis. You are both far more compromising than I am in that way, and I admire you for that. I've often heard and respected what you've said about the environment and health care, and ironically, it's people like you I have in mind when I think the health care system in this country sucks. You and Rod work like dogs, you contribute to the economy, you are the poster children of personal responsibility. It shouldn't be so difficult for you to insure your family simply because, or especially because you're self-employed. My brother is in the same boat. He has a small business in Florida. He employs 8 people. Health care is consistently the biggest obstacle to his company's financial well-being. He just had to lay off half of his staff because of the dire economy in Florida. Now those people, hard workers all and with families to support, are without jobs and health coverage.
I don't know what the solution is, and I will certainly be very disappointed if Obama backs away from his campaign promises regarding health care. But I also realize that Rome wasn't built in a day, and big, grandiose plans don't stand a prayer of passing through Congress, just ask Hillary Clinton. I think Obama's managerial style is one of extreme caution--I expect he won't act until all his ducks are in order.
Boo&BugsMom replied:
Me too. It is really nice to see you around Karen!
coasterqueen replied:
I completely agree that it shouldn't be that hard to get health care, and especially for small businesses or those self-employed. What I am confused about, though, and please correct me I am wrong, but didn't Obama in his campaign say he was going to penalize those small businesses that didn't offer health care? That IMO was going to make things worse because if they were being penalized then small businesses are going to go out of business causing the loss of more jobs. I may be completely way off base here, but that is what I gathered during his campaign. Again, please correct me if I am wrong.
Danalana replied: I just want to reiterate what I said earlier. I know for a fact that there are people struggling, who NEED all the assistance they can get. They don't have the "luxuries" we have, and they still barely make ends meet for their families. I don't think anybody would ever tell them they shouldn't have assistance. It's different when somebody is driving a new car, regularly getting manicures/pedicures, going out and geting plastered every single weekend (sometimes more often), going out to eat whenever they want, buying new clothes more often than you (who isn't on assistance) can, etc....it's those people who gravely abuse the system and essentially rob those who need it. Jeanne, you are right....Jesus was/is merciful to the poor, and we all should be. What about those who are just genuinely lazy? I know it's hard finding jobs right now, but I know lots of people around here don't want to work...anywhere. Being lazy and being in need are different. If we had to, we would give up internet and cable, etc...I would hate for it to come to that, but just those two things would give us an extra $90 a month. I think all karen was saying is that we aren't "barely making it" when we have TONS more than people who are truly struggling and have nothing. That's just a fact...it's not judgmental. As much as I want, I know that we are very blessed to have what we have, you know?
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify what I had said before. I have a lot of compassion for people who can't provide enough for those families...not so much for those who just won't.
jcc64 replied: I also want to add that it's great having you back here, Karen, even if you don't like Obama!
boyohboyohboy replied:
Karen, I was not upset by the posts you made. I do think that there seems to be alot of assumption about people who do use assistance, but then again, I guess its the stigma of having it.
I am thankful for every penny we get. I have no idea how people are able to abuse the system with the amount of time we are checked on thru paper work and proof all the time of what we live on and how we spend the money...I just dont see how you can cheat the system. I know that people say it is done...but for us, we are expected to complete forms every few months and turn them in and we have to have them signed by someone not related to use, who they have called and verified that it was ligit.
I can say we dont have luxuries..we get to eat out, when someone gives us a gift of money. we dont have new cars..my dh's car just died, it had 200,000+ miles on it and was an 87 buick! we dont shop, I cut my own kids and dh's hair..
I dont think the stimulus package is going to work. I do think that "they" are going to make our dollar worthless. I do think that there are some serious hard times coming..It might come down to being completely self sufficient..the grocery stores might not make it..the clothing stores might not make it. but I agree with Jeanne, I wish more people thought about their neighbors and took the time to give people the bennefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions and condeming them. I think in the long run, each other is all we are going to have..
and Karen your dh is right, it is going to come to survival of the fittest. I for one do really worry about my kids..but I wont bennefit myself or my family at the expense of others.
I was not an Obama supporter, but he is the president. I so far dont know that I agree with where he is going..it scares me..but for now, he hasnt been in long enough for me to come down on him. I pray he knows what he is doing.
I rambled..I think my main point was, people on assistance have gotten a bad rap in this thread. if the stimulis package makes it a little broader for people to qualify before they are feeling like suicide like that poor family in CA. then I am glad for the help.
my2monkeyboys replied: My problem with the stimulus package is the amount of pork in it... it's just absurd! Such an absolute waste of our hard-earned dollars! I have no problem with people needing assistance and am glad it is there. I do personally know quite a few people who abuse the system, but I believe in reaping what you sow. Also, from all the different news reports I've heard and read, it seems that for the majority of the money that actually will end up making it into our economic cycle, it will take at least a year or two before it gets there. That really won't help much.
I think the best way to stimulate the economy is to cut taxes, esp on businesses since they are the ones that create jobs. I also think that the whole bail-out deal was wrong, wrong, wrong. I know if my business started going down hill (which, thanks to the economy it has), the govt wouldn't bail us out, nor would I want them to. But, back to the topic , tax cuts have worked in getting us out of slumps in the past, and the govt taking over things never has. I'll go with the choice that has a semi-proven track record any day.
jcc64 replied:
Are we not just coming off of 8 yrs of a president who did nothing but cut taxes while simultaneously running up a record-setting deficit?? Isn't that part of the reason we're in this mess? Has trickle-down economics been such a rousing success story for the middle class and I somehow just didn't get the memo??? Just wondering......
redchief replied: In my opinion, the stimulus package is about 2/3rds good. There is a lot of money being allocated to projects whose economic stimulus potential is dubious or nonexistent. There are a lot of really good projects in it too, though. On some of my points, Jeanne might even think I've died and woke up on the left side of the fence. I assure you that I have not, though. I just think we need to seriously get a handle on health care costs before they bankrupt us all. It's unfortunate that the medical community as a whole can't see the irreparable damage they're doing to their own industry, but greed makes a great rose colored lens.
Out of the so-called stimulus package, the federal government is appropriating to itself, for purposes of oversight, $233,500,000.00. Those appropriations are going to existing government offices, that shouldn't need all of that money to oversee boosted grant funds for existing programs. In my opinion this is another example of government taking care of itself whilst telling us it knows what's best for us. The only good I saw in that part of the appropriations package is the requirement for the agencies to establish a website to publish their use of the funds. Will we finally see how badly the government wastes our money? Or will we have so-called data that no one can possibly decipher into usable information? Further, except in cases where there are complaints of mismanagement of funds by members of the public, none of the inspectors general of any of the issuing agencies have any requirement to conduct any oversight, except in the case of selected, but unnamed and undescribed states and localities.
I can't wait to see the section of the Recovery.gov website that lists the proprietary expenditures. I'll bet that will be some of the most creative writing we'll ever see.
Oh I love the complete lack of teeth the act gives the oversight committee. The president is to establish a seven member committee to make recommendations to each agency that will be receiving appropriations under this bill. The agencies don't have to abide by any of the committee's recommendations. So, basically, the president is empowered to name seven lawyer buddies to a committee whose job is to make suggestions to the federal agencies who already have their own lawyers who conduct oversight. Sounds like a total waste of money to me. Except that I imagine some political thank you jobs will be created here. The only real jobs I see is that the board is expected to conduct audits on the spending, and they're in charge of the website. The board may do other things, but they aren't required to do anything else besides submit a report to Congress. The director of this board will be paid about $155,000.00 for his/her services this year.
Now the lawyers can't have all of the political give me jobs here. There is to another five member panel, to be appointed by the president, to advise the advisory panel. The only rule appears that they shouldn't be lawyers. This board gets $14,000,000.00 to spend on its activities. They are to recommend to the board ways to prevent waste, fraud and abuse. Not that the board has any power with which to prevent such waste, fraud and abuse, but that's just semantics. The panel has the ability to secure more funding under this act, but that's hard to see unless you understand the slingo. The whole board / panel scheme seems fraudulently wasteful and abusive to my tax money to me.
Oooohhh... Whistleblower protection ends after 180 days of inaction by the inspector general of the oversight agency. Cute! Not only that, but the only obligation the government has in upholding a complaint is to pay the complainant's expenses in bringing the complaint. The complainant may sue if there's no action after 210 days.
Much of the money in agriculture is to go to "critical deferred maintenance." Why would critical, or vital to the mission, maintenance ever be deferred in the first place?
Why does the Bureau of Census need a billion dollars out of this stimulus package? Will this stimulus cause that many more births in the country?
NOAA gets $740 million, USGS gets $200 million and NASA at least an additional $250 million to stick thermometers into the world's butt and record the data so the scientists may argue over the results in perpetua. I don't see any real economic stimulus needs being answered in that. The last time I looked the unemployment lines weren't overflowing with climatologists and geologists. I'm for the additional $400 million they're getting for habitat reconstruction though. Real jobs and real good can be done in that area.
They're throwing 4 billion at adding police to the inner cities. Unfortunately, since this is coming from a temporary funding source, there will be little security in those jobs beyond the stimulus period.
I don't see any real problems in the defense spending areas. A lot of jobs will be created in that sector to improve and streamline defense.
There's a lot of money going toward flood mitigation nationally. It's apparent that the government is in agreement that much of the economic trouble we're in is a direct result of the flooding disasters of the last three years. It's about time these critical infrastructures saw some real money for improvement.
At first I was dubious about the energy appropriations, but on examining the areas into which the monies will go, I'm all for it. There will be a ton of jobs created in the area of renewable energy, and many of those should sustain after the projects bear fruit and the fulfillment of the programs eases our reliance on fossil fuels. In other words, as the projects become viable means of energy production, they should make enough money to sustain the jobs they've created on their own and provide the country at least some energy independence. $4.5 billion towards energy delivery infrastructure is long overdue as well. Our power grid is grossly inadequate and aged.
I'm all for the portion of the package that goes toward small business loans and development, except that I believe that some of the aforementioned areas of waste could funnel some more money into this. I think of all of the offered stimulus, this has the most potential to create lasting employment. The package also will allow current small business owners the opportunity to refinance existing loans at lower rates, which should solidify their ability to make money in a tough economy.
An additional $1 billion+ is going to the Superfund to clean up the environment. Of all of the federal programs, this one is an absolute success story, because the government has become quite good at making the old polluters pay back money spent to clean up their messes.
I'm a little bit surprised at $850 million toward wildfire management. This management office is nearly always underfunded and the wildfires of recent years are a result of that. In all honesty, though, I think that instead of throwing all of this money at the problem in an emergency appropriation, that money should be spread out into normal budgeting processes. Under this funding formula it's kind of like throwing water on dry tinder once. Next week that tinder will be dried out and ready to burn again.
$50 million to preserve jobs in the non-profit arts area... yuck! Send the starving artists and their money into workforce redevelopment.
I'm all for the expenditures in health care reform. We need more here too, though. And the medical professionals need to learn to live within their (or do I mean "our means?") means as the rest of us have. That's the only part of a socialized medicine program that I like - the doctors become government employees. What I would like to see is the government establish firm, mandatory, realistic guidelines on what diagnosis and procedures should cost, so that insurance companies can get a handle on spiraling rates.
I don't agree with emergency appropriations in the areas of health research and vaccination and wellness programs. These programs belong on the normal list of federal budgetary items.
I'm all for green schools building and renovations. What better way is there to teach kids how to preserve the environment than to surround them with good examples? I'm also glad they're increasing the Pell grant. That will be an enormous help to parents with kids in college.
There is some money being made available to FHA and other federal home mortgage agencies to assist in the refinance of current mortgages for low and lower-middle income families, but not enough, in my opinion to stop the epidemic of foreclosures on homes that are in need of maintenance or have mortgage payments that are simply too high for the borrowers to repay. There's also nothing that makes interest only mortgages against the rules. In my opinion, the government should never subsidize a loan wherein the borrower can never own their home. It's like paying perpetual rent to the bank.
Continued deficit spending will not help our dollar perform in the world, but for the fact that all of the other countries in the world are basically in the same boat we're in right now. This spending package increases our debt immensely, but without increasing taxes. This is because the American people have already spoken. We want the government to live within it's means too. In the coming years, it's about time that starts to happen. There are many federal "services" that are unnecessary and frivolous. The government needs to start in their own offices, cutting positions to political cronies. It's about time we held our government accountable for the waste they create. After we get our economy back on track, we MUST begin shrinking government so that it can live within the tax revenue limits we impose. I see talk about how wasteful we are as a country and I can't help but note that, when put up against the rest of the free world, we have the largest government (federal, state and local) of all.
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