Someone who has a son - tell me if this is weird

cameragirl21 wrote: I just want to warn everyone before you continue reading that this is definitely a controversial topic. However, if I don't understand or am simply missing something, maybe someone here can help me understand.
Ok, as I've mentioned previously, even though i'm Jewish i am a sponsor/godmother in the Catholic Church.
my godson is now 7 and has two older brothers who have already gone through puberty. My godson is American born but both of his parents were born in Cuba, just to give you a little background.
I know some of the customs and parenting tactics/habits are different in Cuba and really anywhere outside the US, obviously cultures are different everywhere you go. For example, my godson's mom has been buying my godson cologne since he was born and he never leaves the house without being sprayed from top to bottom. This is just one example of my godson's mom doing something that I think is weird...I don't really see why kids would need perfume or cologne.
Anyway, I digress, let me get to the point here.
My godson's mom and I recently had a discussion that leaves me very disturbed. She told me that when her two older sons were going through puberty, she would periodically make them show her their...i don't know how pc you have to be on PC so I'll just say, male organs. She said she did this so that she could make sure they're growing. Her premise was that it's better for them to be embarrassed for a few minutes with their mother than have a non growing organ that would lead to a lifetime of embarrassment. This came up in reference to the fact that my godson will soon be 8 (in February) and he's very small for his age (about the size of a five year old) and that soon enough he'll be in pre-puberty and she'll be requesting the same of him as she did with her two oldest.
Am I missing something or is this borderline sexual abuse?!
I told her that it's really no different than a father forcing his daughter to remove her underwear so he can be sure her hymen is intact (or something to that effect) and that would definitely be considered sexual abuse IMO. My godson's mom says that this is different because she is their MOTHER and somehow that makes all the difference in the world.
I say that there are plenty of cases of moms abusing their sons AND daughters and that this is still wrong and crosses every red line.
For those of you with sons, or anyone who wants to respond--am I missing something here? Is it customary for a mom to expect this of her pubescent son? Is there valid reason to be concerned that something is not growing?
I asked my friends with sons but only 2 of my close friends have sons and they both lead alternative lifestyles so if this is a mainstream thing they don't know about it.
Btw, if this is too controversial, I'm really sorry, I just figure this may be a good place to ask something like this. I try to be involved in my godson's life and do want what's best for him and while my influence is limited as compared to the influence of his parents I'd love to know anyone's opinions on how I can approach this.
thanks....

TheOaf66 replied: well speaking from past experience if my mother would have requested that of me I would have told her where to go

If my wife would ever do that (I am 100% positive she would not) I would flip out

NO it is not normal and no I would not encourage it

Also I was wondering, even if it was not "measuring up" to some standard that she had set, what was she going to do about it get surgery or something. That is just wrong and appalling to subject a preteen to that.

luvmykids replied:
My thought exactly, say one of them isn't growing at the rate SHE deems "normal", so what? Then what?

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Not sure what your being Jewish has to do with this topic, but yeah, what is she gonna do about it if she thinks they aren't growing??

ataylorm replied: That's a bit freaky, personally I don't think parents should be seen naked by their kids past 2-3 years of age. I understand parents having to give their kids baths and stuff, but certainly not coed.

cameragirl21 replied: well, Troy, that's what i'm wondering too, what is she going to do if it's not growing--water it?
i guess her premise is that if it's not growing then she'll take them to see a doctor to determine why it's not growing.
what i'm wondering is if there is a valid concern for this, i guess what i mean to say is, why would she think it's not growing?
i don't know what to do, i can't report my godson's mom to any authorities because i don't know if this technically qualifies as abuse but i'm really disturbed by it and would like to spare my godson of this if i can.
you're sure then that this is not normal? the reason i ask is that before i accuse my godson's mom of anything i have to be sure that this is really abnormal and it's not just because i'm missing something or don't know or understand something....

mckayleesmom replied: Ummm...I have never heard of that before. I mean seriously...what can she do about it if it is smaller then average? All she will end up doing is ruining her childrens self esteem. I have heard of checking to make sure the twigs and berrys dropped as baby's or small toddlers, but not as teenagers.

CantWait replied: I have an 11 year old son, and I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER asked him to pull down his underwear to inspect his penis. I have no idea what it looks like, and I don't want to know to what it looks like. This in my opinion, is that only borderline, but IS sexual abuse.

I've provided my son with the materials (books) so that he knows what puberty and what happens. If he has any questions or concerns about his development, then he can always come to his father or I.

Is there anyway you can talk to her son alone and ask him how he feels about this. Maybe he's just scared to go to someone, and needs a trusted adult to talk to. She needs to be reported. Even if the police don't think it's serious enough to warrent charges, then at least it's you've done your part, and they have it in writting in case another red flag shows up.

cameragirl21 replied: Aimee, the only reason i mentioned being Jewish is that since i'm new here and some people seem to be wary/skeptical of me i don't want anyone to say something like, what do you mean you're a godmother in the catholic church, didn't you say you're Jewish and accuse me of lying or something like that.
not many Jews who are sponsors in the Catholic Church so i was just pre-empting questions of that sort.
sorry if it upset you.

booey2 replied: Okay, I don't normally enter these kinds of posts but since I have 2 boys I will. I have not asked specifically to see their parts but recently I have seen one boys which led to some concerns so DH took him to the doctor to be checked and he is fine. I don't agree with asking to check them, but if I notice something, while they are changing or coming out of the shower or what not I will inquire to make sure everything is okay.

Terri
edited to add: I don't believe religion has anything to do with it. And I agree with Marie, that is not to be tolerated at that age it is just wrong.

TheOaf66 replied:
if that actually worked guys would be out in the yard with watering cans all the time


as for reporting it, I am not sure if this is illegal in any way ( I am sure on some level it is) but it is not normal and I do think this mother should stop.

CantWait replied:
Anything sexual that makes a child feel uncomfortable is classified as some sort of abuse. That's why I think you need to speak with him.

luvbug00 replied:

Mya has been wearing "perfume" since infantcy. MANY latin children are spashed in a calonge of some sort. nothing like ralph laurn or somthing it's more like baby oil with sent and the one I used was made by the latin devision of johnson & johnson

mom2my2cuties replied: Ok - I was going to stay out of this completely because I am frankly tired of the non stop controversy that seems to come from stuff that shouldn't be such a big deal or people just trying to get attention for some sick and twisted purpose.


Now - that being said - I said I wasn't going to get into the story of my son because I wasn't ready - But lets just say - This pushed a button. (So if you don't like that - might want to skip my post)

I am the mother of a child who has been sexually abused by a parent and step parent. My now 6 year old son was sexually abused by his father (my ex husband) and his then step mother when he was 4 years old and we have been fighting an uphill battle for over 2 years now. I am not looking for sympathy - Simply stating why this ticks me off.

I think this kind of post is really out of line. If you are truly concerned about this, you should speak to the authorities, not a group of parents. Parents are great sources of information. But you already knew something like this would stir up something in every parent who has a child and I think posting it was just a way to do that. A child who has been abused is every parents worst fear - And NOT something that should in any way be toyed with.


And now - NO PMS PLEASE! My Box is full!

cameragirl21 replied: Well, Nadia, that was my godson's mom's explanation too--that it's a Latin thing.
BUT she goes to Banana Republic and buys him cologne for adults and has been doing this since he was born.
I'm not trying to make an issue of that, nor did i ever mean to say or imply that this is a religious issue, i'm just explaining that he's my godson so people can understand what business i have getting involved in his life, that's all.

Crystalina replied: This shouldn't even be a question. Of course it is not normal. My daughter is 5 and totally freaks if I even walk in while she is dressing. My son has just turned 3 and he's already starting to get shy although his comes and goes. At times he's hiding from me and others he's running around with all of his stuff for everyone to see. I do know that customs are differant but I've never heard this one before.

You posted about the baby wearing cologne. Alot of Puerto Ricans do that with their male children. My little cousin was wearing special baby jewelry when he was very very young. It would not suprise me if he would have cologne put on him as well. It's mostly with the males. They feel they have to prove something The more jewelry, the more people "praise" him the bigger man he will become. Not all Puerto Ricans do this. My cousin still lives on the island so he is in the thick of it. Alot of the ones that live in more "white" populated areas don't do that. But that whole feeling-of-the-family-jewels....never heard that one before.

cameragirl21 replied: I'm really sorry to hear about your son, Tish, and I'm really sorry you feel this way about my post. The reason I asked this board is because before I can go to the authorities I first have to determine if there is any wrongdoing that took place.
My godson's mom seemed shocked that I was upset by this and that I didn't think it was perfectly normal.
Her reaction made me wonder if maybe I'm missing something or don't understand something.
I hope you don't hold this against me but if you do I guess there is nothing I can do about that.
Be well.

CantWait replied:

Tish I have to say we can all learn something from what is being said. Sometimes people just need to turn to advice of someone else before they can look in another direction. As Nadia said, we seem to think spraying a perfume on a baby is odd, however in her culture it's normal. I think also the fact that the mom spoke so freely about it would raise the question if it's normal, it's not like she was hiding it.

The latin culture is very odd, and being a man there is a big thing. I can say this because my husband is latin. Although I don't agree with checking the male penis of an adolesant, I can almost see why they would. It may...just be their culture. Just as in some cultures the females labia is cut off. This is the problem with many middle eartern cultures, we don't understand their way of life, and they don't understand ours. It cause chaos, and war.

I can understand why you would be upset, I was sexually abused as a child, and telling someone isn't always the easiest thing.

We all have a different view of what is borderline, and what is sexual abuse. This is just one of those things that really is in some peoples view borderline, and I can see why.

Crystalina replied:
Yes, that is what I mean. They don't wear adult perfumes/colognes but they wear something. My cousin actually wears more diamonds then I own.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Okay I am the mother of a son going thru puberty..and believe me we all know he is.. not because we see it.. but because he tells us.. over and over about it..lol

First of all I am a mother to 3 teens. I have not only not noticed my son .. I haven't inspected my daughters naked either. I mean yes I have seen them in a towel etc. But I haven't seen them..and said let me see what your working with.

We have frank and open discussions.. they see me naked (the girls) more than I see them.. but I raise all my kids to proud of there body.

I know boys of that age have fear of measuring up enough as it is. I mean isn't gym always torture for most in the shower..except for the select perfect specimens.

I find her concerns odd.. strange and pervert.

I personally don't care how big my sons member is.. compared to anyone..that is just ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

If Justin has any questions he can come to me..and I was honest with him and said I don't know much about becoming a man..but Dad does..lol

Example in my house happened this weekend.. Tanner who is 8..and I see naked all the time. He is at an age where he isn't ashamed for Mom to see him still but anyone else besides Mom and Dad.. it's the end of the world..which is as it should be. He had a tick..on his nether region.. he couldn't get it. He came to me and said.. help mom..look..and pulled his underwear over. His Dad was home.. and I sent them to the bedroom to get it.. but it was really stuck.. and Randy yelled for me...he said.. I need help. Tanner was kind of embrassed he said.. because I had to TOUCH him.. its different then seeing. But we got thru it. He is 8.. I can't imagine this being Justin.. I might have just taken him to the DOCTOR!
Even if I was a single Mom.. and Tanner had this problem.. I would deal with it of course.. you have too..but with decency and decorum..

How can these boys soon to be men learn to respect their bodies if their own mother can't.

That why the boys have a yearly physical with a doctor....A medical professional who can decide whats normal and what's not.

luvbug00 replied: Jennifer she probaly uses banana republic because you cant buy the stuff I used here. I had my friend bring it back from columbia with her and when you run out your sunk.

About the other thing. tell the athorities no friendship is worth keeping over the abuse of a child.

Crystalina replied:
I don't think it is odd, just differant then others and what most are used to. If you are raised with it it is not odd.-------------just wanted to add that.

cameragirl21 replied: well, Mel, you bring up an interesting point. She told me that when her older boys didn't want to show her, her response was always, "fine, you don't want to show me, then I'll take you to the doctor and you'll have to show him/her." And she said that always get them to show her.
What's ironic IMO is that from what most people are saying here, this is NOT normal so if she HAD taken them to a doctor, maybe the doctor would have told her that this is not normal.
Whether or not she'd have believed it is another story, she seems pretty convinced that this is the kind of thing any mother should do and that I'm the crazy one for not getting it.
And THAT is why I asked the board, I'm always willing to entertain the notion that maybe I don't get it and maybe I am wrong, no matter how off the wall something may seem.

CantWait replied:
true

CantWait replied:
It sounds as if she's given her children a bad perception of what a doctor is.

cameragirl21 replied: ok, but Nadia, what happens if the authorities don't do anything and I'm as a result, precluded from seeing my godson?
as far as what she described there was no touching involved and i don't think what is happening here will lead to anything more than a slap on the wrist. but i will have to take the consequences of what i did.
her middle son has been in jail and various boot camps more times than i can count so she's already had her fair share of fun with the authorities.
what i'm wondering is--what if i told my godson in private that this is wrong and that if his mother asks this of him then he should refuse no matter what?
if i do that, would you see it as my encouraging him to disrespect/disobey his mother? that's where this all gets fuzzy for me, i want to protect him but don't want to turn him against his mother either, or give him the idea that it's ok to talk to back to his mother.
see my dilemma?

TANNER'S MOM replied:
It sounds like she is threatening her children by saying fine You show the doctor.

We have always talked about times and places to show your body...people you can trust.

Doctors Nurses.. if Mom and Dad take you etc..

I can't imagine that being a threat.

I can remember explainign to my children what a physical meant.. and the eww feeling.. but told them they did it to all of us to make sure we weren't sick.. we all hate it.. it feels yuck.. but we want to be healthy..

I can't imagine saying it as a threat..

Sounds to me like she has taught those kids this behavior.. and that she has taught them to NOT trust the people they should.. (not that there aren't freak dr's out there.. but you know what I mean)

CantWait replied: That's why you have to speak to him and asks him if this bothers him, you can't tell him it's wrong because then they will say that you put it in his head. You have to think what's more important, being friends with her or taking a chance.

mom2my2cuties replied:


Obviously I am not Nadia - But I am going to respond to this anyway - because for some reason, I just can't keep my mouth shut today -

You are being selfish by being so concerned with YOU!

Who you need to be concerned with here are the children. Not yourself.


(ok - Monica I think you dropped those tongs we talked about yesterday )

CantWait replied: That's why you have to speak to him and asks him if this bothers him, you can't tell him it's wrong because then they will say that you put it in his head. You have to think what's more important, being friends with her or taking a chance.

Crystalina replied:
I was getting ready to say the same thing. I really don't like when parents threaten their kids with doctors or cops. It may seem harmless to the adult saying it but the kids start to fear them.

ashtonsmama replied:

cameragirl21 replied: Tish, i am so not concerned about ME here. it's not that i won't be able to bear not seeing my godson, although of course i'd be sad but rather that he'll think i abandoned him...he's very attached to me, which is not to say that he's also not attached to his mother and father.
whenever you take an action you first have to make sure that you're doing the right thing.
For instance years ago, i witnessed a mother beating the living daylights out of her kids so i went to the cops, who arrested her and put her in jail for a few weeks, putting the kids in the care of the state. i was called upon to testify against her in court, at which point her lawyer requested that she be allowed to return to the philippines (where they were from) with the kids and they left never to return. and in retrospect, i don't know if i did those kids any favors. at least in the US there is some protection for them but in other countries a mother beating her kids nearly to death is not so unusual and not necessarily against the law.
i am still haunted by that experience so going to the authorities is not something i'm always comfortable with unless i'm sure something will be done.
and to be fair, this will get no more than a slap on the wrist, i'm pretty sure.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Yes, you need to worry about HIM and not yourself and your relationship with this mother who is violating her child.

Call the authorities, most of the time they will let you remain anonymous. Tell them you strongly urge them to speak with the child and maybe they will tell him to stand up to his mother, etc. Start there at least.

mckayleesmom replied: Also....that little voice in your head that told you it was wrong should be the only thing you need to base it off of. You know its wrong...therefore...that is your answer.

mckayleesmom replied: Also...If you really want to protect this child..you will alert the authorities and do what is right, not come here, ask a question and find excuses for why you can't follow through with doing what is right. What was the point in the question if you didn't like any of the answers? You asked if it was wrong....YES it is wrong....the end. There should be no more dancing around what to do.

I also have to add that it might be a Cuban tradition, but in the USA it is illegal.

luvmykids replied:
I think if you're truly wanting to help you take him aside and tell him that just in case he doesn't know HE is in charge of his body and if something makes him feel uncomfortable HE can say NO. I'd tell him that if he's ever uncomfortable with someone looking or touching and doesn't know what to do that you're there for him and let it unfold from there.

I wouldn't tell him it's "wrong" because you don't want to pit them against each other, just let him know he has the power to say no.

cameragirl21 replied: ok...i'm starting to realize that i can't ask anything of this board without regretting it no matter what the circumstances or how serious the situation.
To those of you who gave me thoughtful responses, thanks very much, you've certainly given me reason to believe that i am not wrong in thinking this is wrong and i'll certainly be taking your advice.
I always appreciate when a person can ask a question and be given an honest and sincere reply so that something can be learned and so that someone can not walk away thinking they're a jerk for even asking.

Crystalina replied:
I second that!!
She may honestly not think she is doing wrong. If she was brought up with this as normal then she is only doing what she knows. Let him know that if HE thinks it's wrong that he can always come to you (if you are willing to help him.)

cameragirl21 replied: btw, Monica, I hadn't seen your latest response before I posted my latest response (before this one) but i want to say that i really appreciate your advice, it makes sense to me and i'm comfortable with it. i also want to thank you for taking the time to answer me without giving me any grief or judging me in any way.
at least if you judged me, you didn't make it known here which i really appreciate.
take care.

ashtonsmama replied:
again.

I won't say any more.

mckayleesmom replied:
What exactly do you want people to tell you? You asked a question and we answered and then you gave different reasons why you don't think you could turn her in. This isn't about you, its about a child. We as adults and authority figures have to protect the children. Is it sad that it might be against their parent? Yes, nobody is saying that it wouldn't be hard and you probably won't be very popular after its said and done, but it is the right thing to do. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the son in jail was maybe acting out because of years of having his mom check out his penis? That can seriously be damaging to a child.

Crystalina replied:
Whether you are asking the question to be sincere or not it is everyones choice to answer the thread. For those who complain that you are asking for attentioin or any other reason then they are really no better when they take the time to make a negative post. This is why threads get nasty. Why do people even respond if they are going to be negative to someone else? I'm not saying people can't disagree but I was always taught if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything. If your comment does not pertain to the actual question then why respond? It just gets old.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
That's kind of what I was wondering. It's not that difficult. We offered many suggestions. What is it that you are wanting to do with the situation?

luvmykids replied: I may be in the minority here but I think whether or not it's abuse is tough to call, weird, definitely but abuse is a very strong word. I think to call it abuse you have to know the mothers intentions, which we don't. Is it a possibility, yes, but IMHO I don't blame Jennifer for wanting to carefully weigh it all out before taking that kind of action. JMHO.

mckayleesmom replied: Nobody is trying to be mean. We just don't understand why she asks if she doesn't like the answers. She talks about needing to be comfortable with how she goes about this. To me, its not about HER comfort...sometimes you have to put that aside and do what is right. I agree with some who said that she should sit down and talk with the boy, but then again, how many children are actually going to admit being afraid of their parents? Or admit that the things they do make them uncomfortable? How many children in past years have been killed at the hands of abuse and they talked to people and found out that so many suspected something, but didn't feel confortable contacting the authorities?

There is a little boy right now in the news...that little foster kid that was killed. Teachers testified to the mom wanting them to put him on a leash and making him wear diapers at 6 years old.......Why didn't they contact they contact the authorites? The dad knew the mom was abusive, but he didn't do anything either? He didn't want to make his wife mad at him...God Forbid.

I think that if people stopped trying to tip toe around each other and do whats right..alot more children would benefit from it in the future. Maybe if people got more comfortable with doing what is right...we wouldn't hear about so many abuse and murder cases.

cameragirl21 replied: Thanks, Crystal, I really appreciate what you said and you really made me feel better.
I've always been amazed at how easily one person can say something to make a person feel like total #%$%@ and how one person can say something to make a person feel much better. You know what they say about the power of words.
Btw, just as an aside, I can tell you that if you pursue a career in photography, you'll see a lot of people get naked with no qualms about it. I remember when I shot my first fashion show I went backstage and saw all the models (grown, developed women) get completely naked in front of a group of both women and men who worked for the designer. I was beyond shocked the first time but now it's become just normal. I say this because of what you had said about your daughter not wanting you to see her naked.
That picture in my slide show of the Rafael with the two girls was taken in a public place and while we cleared the people out I was still uneasy because they were topless. They were both 6 at the time and their parents thought I was nuts for being uneasy because their premise was that they're just little girls but I was still uneasy about it. We kept them fully dressed right up until the moment we put them into position and they didn't seem to mind a bit but I was just glad we got the shot fast. Luckily we trained them ahead of time so they knew exactly what to do...otherwise I don't know if I coud have gone through with it....
Keep up with the photography btw, I firmly believe that if you have a dream you should go after it.

luvmykids replied:
I only suggested that as a starting point, and he doesn't have to admit it to her but it may just be enough for him to realize he can say no and the mom may back off.

In cases of more serious abuse, no, thats not an option but in this case I think it's a step to figuring out how far to really go. And depending on the relationship she has with her godson she may be able to tell from that conversation what is really going on in his head and if there's more abusive type stuff happening.

mckayleesmom replied:
I know what you are saying..don't get me wrong..Im just saying ...how many little kids would actually admit there was a problem?

I was molested as a child, my mom asked me and I denied it and he wasn't even family...kwim?

luvmykids replied:
I do know what you're saying

Crystalina replied:

I agree with you on this believe me. Every case has a begining though. This may be the begining of this one. It has to start somewhere. She came on here to ask before she jumped the gun. I don't blame her. I would also. If this woman was brought up around this (in my opinion) very odd tradition then is she doing wrong at all? To us here in the States, yes she most assuredly is but what about where she has come from? That is all I'm trying to say. The facts need to be known before you report a mother for something you are not sure about. That is seriouse. What Jennifer needs to do is to find info online about this "custom" and take action from there.

Jamison'smama replied: I just wanted to say, before you do whatever you do, you can call any child protective services organization, remain anonymous and simply ask the legality of this. I am on the side of being really unclear as well. I agree this shouldn't be happening, I do believe it could be a cultural thing...have you spoken with any of the latin social service agencies about cultural differences and approaches? I think they could be of help.

Crystalina replied:
That is a great idea. I never even thought of that.

jem0622 replied: A very sticky and sensitive situation. None of it is normal in the U.S. I don't know if it is customary in Cuba or not, so I cannot address that. I would be strongly concerned/worried IMHO.

CantWait replied:
Did anyone ask how they felt about being naked in front of someone they didn't know???

People seem to think that because they're children, developed or not that their opinion and comfort level doesn't matter.

And before you say that this isn't the question of the thread, or that someone is being mean, just remember that you brought it up.

mckayleesmom replied:
Yes...I wondered that also. Although I think the pictures are pretty as well as the subjects...I find it disturbing that any parent would let someone photograph their child without clothes...but that is just my opinion.

luvbug00 replied:

The athorities will take any accusation of child abuse seriously. and I personaly would rather risk the chance of loosing contact with them to have on my contance that i let it slide. But that's just me.

Crystalina replied:
Are you seriouse? Do you think that photo is provocative in any way? Obscene? I think it is beautiful and if my daughter were willing to pose for something like that then I would love to have a pic. My daughter would never pose without a shirt though and since I know how she is I would never ask her. I would never put her in the position. I, however, think it's beautiful and never thought anything less then that. It's art. It's photography. One in the same really. I guess just like all art everyone has their own opinion of it.
I know you complimented the picture but you also said it was disturbing. That's what got me.

mckayleesmom replied:
It is a very beautiful picture, but I still find it disturbing also. I know these girls are willing participants, but they are also children. Alot of children do things that their parents want them to do. They don't question or argue with their parents...kwim? And some also won't let their parents know they they don't want to do it. I would love to have a picture like that, but like you said, My child would have a shirt on. I also said..that is my opinion...I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

luvbug00 replied:

I am going to say it threw me for a loop.even the picture people will not photo a child over the age of one in a diper only shot. I didn't question it in a sexual manner or anything but I am not used to seeing child over one without a shirt on in a portrit.

CantWait replied:
DID I say it was provacative????? No. I asked if the girls were asked if they felt comfortable taking their shirts off in front of strangers. My son at age of 6 wasn't comfortable taking his shirt off, and even on a hot day or when he went in his pool choose to leave his shirt on.

mckayleesmom replied: Oh also...NO I don't see it as provocative at all, but I think that anything that has to do with children taking their clothes off in front of strangers is probably uncomfortable ....heck...for any age for that matter. Think about it...some places would refuse to develop something like this.

Crystalina replied: Marie~ I only quoted you because I quoted mckayleesmom. I should have deleted your quote before I posted. I apologize for that. It was not meant for you.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: This is ridiculous.

First...Naked kids are gorgeous. Before that is interpreted wrong... think of all the beautiful Anne Geddes shots... the newborns with a bow... one in particular that I love is a white newborn baby held in the arms of a black man...absolutely BEAUTIFUL pictures. Many places won't even go there... but they're companies and don't want to be sued. Many solo practices will do it if asked. TONS of parents have pictures of their kids in the tub, even when they're a little older...it's CUTE. Now I wouldn't put the pics out to the public... but they're adorable pictures, and I have some of my children in the tub, mounted on a WALL...so when company comes over, yes they sometimes see it if they go upstairs, and it never fails that I get comments on them.

Second... the issue at hand here is not an argument about a picture... it's about whether Jen should contact authorities about suspected abuse. I think that the suggestion to contact them and ask about it if it's illegal would be a good solution. But to be honest... my mom checked me and my brother out when we were pre-teens. Not because she was perverted... nothing like that... but she wanted to be awar eof the changes in our bodies...and I don't think anyone else here is really of the French culture... but getting peach fuzzz "down there" is cause for celebration in my family. So yeah...my mom checked... and it was probably "illegal"...but the intent wasn't wrong, nor perverted, or anything like that. It was just a normal part of growing up for me. But I was always uncomfortable about it...who wouldn't be? When I told her I didn't want her to check anymore, that I'd "tell her" when I got the "fuzz", she replied that's all fine and dandy, but I want to make sure you don't have a yeast infection too. Now keep in mind, she'd usually only check about once every couple months... and more often than not, she'd check only because I was always itching myself or whatever. Maybe the mom is just checking for signs of something, who knows.

Have you ever even asked the mom about it? Have you ever sat down with her and discussed this with her? Asked her why she needs to do this, since it's not a common practice, and that it really makes you feel uncomfortable about it?

mckayleesmom replied:
But like you said...You had a choice. At one point you decided that you didn't want your mom looking down there. This mother is not giving these kids a choice. She is saying..show me or I will take you to the doctor. This is a threat to take them to someone they are from what it seems..afraid of. So that is where it becomes wrong.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I think naked babies are beautiful.. but I don't want to put MY child's pic on the internet for some pervert to get his jolly's on.

I know that pic did disturb some.. It was mentioned to me on more than on occasion that those girls where to big to be topless. I do realize it was art work.. I guess everyone has different comfort levels.


I think my fear here is that.. we will blame abuse on culture, diversity, religion....whatever excuse you want to make. But if you feel like it's something questionable which you must cause you asked us, then report it. Who will know but you and then your conscience will be clear.

I think when she said that her kids resisted it and she threatned them with the DOCTOR was when it really crossed a line for me. They stated to her they weren't comfortable with this practice..and she crossed the boundaries her kids set up.

This is not the same as I don't wanna bathe, I don't wanna eat supper.. this is something alot more in my opionion.

I am sorry but the culture agruement doesn't wash with me. We are in America as she is too.. and we take care and protect our kids.. or at least I would hope we wake up and start soon!

mckayleesmom replied:


The part where she used intimidation to get her way is where it became no question of abuse for me also.

Crystalina replied:
What is America if not many differant cultures? We are the Melting Pot.

Crystalina replied:
The intimidation factor is 100% totally wrong.

luvbug00 replied:

yes, we are and proud to be but forcing anything on anyone is not culture it's abuse. period. I know it's difficult to see this sort of thing hapen to somone you care about and you don't want to believe it and somtimes even see it and even though it may cost you everything is it really worth letting it happen?

* I use you in genaric terms *

TANNER'S MOM replied:
We are melting pot.. right on.. and in this great melting pot..people choose to move too.. we as a country have made laws that everyone must abide by..no matter what culture you are.. no matter what religion you are.. you are not except.. is what I am saying. If you cross the line with a child I don't care if you from the North Pole.. any culture , any religion is not above child abuse.. and not above being punished for hurting a child.

Crystalina replied:
I understand what you are saying but is it abuse if the mother is not intending to abuse her child? Most of us would never tell our sons (or daughters) to pull down their pants because for us it is very very wrong. Really before this can be considered abuse it needs to be known whether this is culture driven. kwim? Then, since she lives her and we have laws, she will be able to change what she does. Should she even have to change her culure if she is only "checking" her son. She is not doing anything else. Would a doctor do the same thing? I don't know. I know my doctor checks both of my children. I'm not sure how old they check boys as Evan is only 3. Another thing is how often does she do this? Everyday? Definatley not right. What if it were only every few months? It sounds like she does not take him for a physical if she is threatening him with the doctor. Why does a doctor check after a certain age?

Boo&BugsMom replied: I didn't want to respond until I remembered an important point. Back to the topic at hand........

I think it's good to be cautious and aware. It is certainly NOT normal and personally I think it's common sense and the whole situation is just plain disturbing. I think calling someone like CPS to ask annonymous questions first is a good step to take without jumping the gun. I have known people who have had their lives turned upside down for small misunderstandings and once they are in your lives it is VERY hard to get them to leave. So please think heavily about what your next move is. You do not want to turn someones life upside down who does not deserve it, but you do want to make sure things are not worse than what you already know. Only you know the sitaution better than any of us.

Crystalina replied:
Very well put!

TANNER'S MOM replied:
I am not saying.. she should be carted off to jail.. but she needs some help. I mean come on.. we are all raised to respect our bodies and our boundaries. I don't even cross those lines with my girls not alone boys..

If our children aren't allowed boundaries with us, and respected then how can they know for sure anyone even themselves should be respected.

The intimadation is the part I stay with, that is classic. It shows she wasn't gettign her way, she quilted or scared her child into this. This aren't babies..or 3 year old. We are talking about boys going thru puberty. These are children old enough to speak and have a voice. My son is 5 ft taller.. skinny.. but old enough to have a say and thought of what he wants with his body.

I think it's hard to realize the difference in a child that old voicing an opionion. We are not talking about children who are not sure.. we are talking about boys old enough to parent.. you see what I am saying.

We can argue culture all day... but to me it makes no difference.. crossing a line is crossing a line.

CantWait replied:
A doctor would check the testicals for any abnormalities such as lumps, same as when you get a breast exam at your annual.

Boo&BugsMom replied: I think some more questions need to be answered. First, does the mom take him to see a doctor every year for a checkup? If not, could it be a money issue? That could explain one reason for it since doctors check that area at check ups (which makes me cringe when I see it, but it's necessary). Is she worried about it not growing (which I find just plain weird) or did she mean to say to make sure there were not any problems with it growing? Meaning, boys are suseptable (sp?) to hernia's while they are growing...for example.

I'm not trying to side with what the mother is doing, which I find to just be plain ridiculous, but I am trying to figure out exactly WHY she is doing it and making sure there were not any miscommunications during the conversation. We all know, when we are shocked, we tend to take things differently sometimes.

Added: at this age though, if mom is worried about something, perhaps she can educate her child in doing self-checks alone on himself. Maybe she needs someone to just tell her that.

Crystalina replied:

I understand that and that is because you have raised your son (like many of us have) to know boundries and have a voice when it comes to his body. I think every kid should speak up when they feel uncomfortable but unfortunatly many are raised to keep quiet. I can't speak for many but in the latin family I was raised in there is no disagreements. It is what the parent says and there is no in between. That is good in many cases and bad in cases like this.

My2Beauties replied: Wow I can see this is getting pretty darn heated! I just want to add

I honestly see nothing wrong with the pics of those two girls, I thought it was absolutely gorgeous. BUT...I'm not a perverted pedophile so what I see as beautiful can also be seen as sexual by another. But to me if you get right down to it, if the girls thought it was ok, they weren't acting intimidated, scared or uncomfortable and the parents agreed then it's fine with me. The intentions weren't oh let's make a perverted picture of two little girls, it's art! I pinch Hanna's little naked butt all the time and I have taken pictures of her in the tub, I mean so I think it's cute as all get out personally!

Secondly, the topic at hand here. I think calling CPS anonymously and asking them is a good start. I think the topic has just gotten out of hand and I even see one person's feelings getting really hurt by this. I hoenstly think you have good intentions with this and you want to make sure you're not overstepping your boundaries I can truly see your line of thinking here. Heck I asked about a little girl who told me her mother beat on her before I said anything because the little girl in question was notorious for lying about EVERYTHING. I did what I had to do and nothing came of it, the little girl is definitely not being raised in the best situation but she also is not being beaten on so my intuition was right but....you have to see. In this case it's totally different you know for a fact this is going on, so the question of calling shouldn't even be a question, yes I think you should call...just CPS for now and they can do their investigation. I really don't think the police would do anything besides like you said...a slap on the wrist or just contact CPS themselves! I don't know about different cultures this different cultures that, but I work with two Puerto Rican women here at work, one of which who has a son and I honestly (just from conversations) think this is something she would never do, infact she is big on children's privacy and stuff, they have their bodies they have their privacy they have this..they are humans...so I don't think she would do it. Now Puerto Rico is not Cuba so the culture could differ. Tish I just want to say that I honestly do not think her intentions were to hurt your feelings!

kimberley replied: well i think Jennifer got quite a few thoughtful replies and i have decided to close this thread because of the "other" posts. i am disappointed that we cannot discuss serious topics without some people taking personal potshots.