Sicko movie - speaking of health care costs

amynicole21 wrote: Just watched Michael Moore's Sicko last night. It was really an eye opener for me on many levels.

Did you know that in France the government sends someone to new mother's houses to help with laundry and caring for the baby for FREE? They come in for 4 hour increments and do your laundry or make dinner or whatever you need them to do. And this isn't just a one time thing - they come twice a week for months if you need them!

He spoke with a French family and was asking about taxes and how high they must be... nope. When asked what their biggest expense was, they said it was buying fish and vegetables

The people in Britain laughed at him when he asked how much it cost them to have their baby in the hospital - you never see a bill. And the only cashier in the hospital was there to REIMBURSE the patients for their travel expenses needed to get to the hospital.

And of course, Canada's system is the same way.

Why does everyone think this is a bad idea? Why should we lose our homes and go into debt because we get sick?? Why should only people of means be allowed to have good health? We have a higher infant mortality rate and short life span than all of the countries they profiled... even Cuba.

Hope this doesn't cause a debate... it just really intrigues me.

mckayleesmom replied: Sorry, but I wouldn't believe anything that man puts in his videos.....Watch Michael Moore Hates America first....They interviewed alot of the people he interviewed in his first video and they all claimed he edited it to make it sound the way he wanted...twisting their words basically.

As for the health care thing.....I wouldn't mind it. I wouldn't go by what he said in his video first though....I would ask an actual French person or do my research before believing him. It might be true...

bawoodsmall replied:
I agrre that the movie makes it worse but the facts are the facts imo. I believe we still need a better health care system. We are supposed to be this super country and it is pathetic to me that my friend could literally lose everything she has worked all of her life for because of medical bills. She has insurance but there will still be huge costs paid out.

Canadians... are nursing homes free?

sparkys2boys replied:
No they are not and actually are quite pricey.. IMO that is. I dont have exact numbers but I know it is up there. But there is also assistance if you cannot pay the montly costs.

kit_kats_mom replied: Well, nursing homes are a luxury in most cases. My aunt, who is French Canadian, went back to Canada when her mother got too old to take care of herself, and she lived there, with her sister nearby, and took care of her for 3 years until granmare died. I mean she went up there leaving her family and job behind. They did have a home health aide, but mostly it was them. I just don't see many Americans jumping to do that.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Depend which party of Canada you're in, which home you're in, and what services you get.

the average cost of a nursing home in my area is between 2500 - 3500 a month. Seems expensive... btu that is including rent, meals, laudnry services, cleaning services, everything is provided, really. Usually nursing homes are bcause there are no family members to take care of the elderly person.

We don't get a hospital bill for ahving a child, either, and we do have home nurses that can come for free, as well, to make sure all is well and if we need anything. You can refuse them, or you can accept their services. It's not to clean though..just to make sure you and baby are ok.

I think Miachel Moore usually hits the nail on the head with the general ideas behind his movies... he could just be nicer about the way he portrays them.

It IS kind of pathetic that you guys could lose everything if you can't pay your medical bills. Land of the Free? not...seems we're more free, in this case...

luvmykids replied: I don't like or agree with Michael Moore on a lot of things, but I think in this case it's hard to deny that other countries have their act together when it comes to health care. I think most of us know someone or have been there ourselves when either insurance is absolutely not affordable or doesn't provide enough coverage. I have a friend who had GOOD insurance, but when her DH had cancer it didn't even put a dent in things and they lost everything and three years later, still live with her parents because literally every penny they can get their hands on goes towards medical bills.

I think we could take a lesson from other countries who are just as advanced as we are, have the same size/technoligically advanced military, etc yet still manage to provide health care for their citizens.

bawoodsmall replied: You could be right Cary. But sometimes there isnt any way for a family member to take care of their parent imo. I dont know what is really expensive for you all but here it is around $7,000 a month for a nursing home. Right now there isn no way my friend could be at home because she is still in a coma. I just think its sad that some people cant have the care they need or may lose everything they have because of medical bills.

Cece00 replied:
This is why we have a higher infant mortality rate

>>While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, many other countries do not. For example, a 2006 artilce in U.S. News & World Report states, "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country."

Just some other info...

>> In “Sicko,” Moore visited what he called an “average middle-class family” in France to prove that taxes weren’t a burden to them. The couple, who had two children shown on the video, said their combined income was $8,000 per month. That’s almost $100,000 per year – not exactly “average middle class.”

But Moore expected viewers to be satisfied with this well-off couple’s smiles and nice house, accepting that “free” health care wasn’t really costing anyone anything.

USA Today’s Richard Wolf provided some refreshing honesty in his June 22 piece, reporting the drastic difference in countries’ tax rates: “In France and Britain, the tax burden is 42% and 27% respectively, as opposed to 12% in the USA, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.”

>>A rare source showed up in Anthony DePalma’s New York Times article May 27: Dr. Leonel Cordova, who has practiced medicine in both Cuba and the United States.

Cordova said Cuba has two health care systems – “one is for party officials and foreigners like those Mr. Moore brought to Havana,” DePalma wrote. “But for the 11 million ordinary Cubans, hospitals are often ill equipped and patients ‘have to bring their own food, soap, sheets – they have to bring everything.’”

In his movie, Moore said he had asked the Cuban doctors to give the Americans with him the same care they would give anyone else. He acted as though that disclaimer was enough to make it true.


The problem is that while our health care system isnt perfect- socialized medicine isnt either. I'm not sure its 100% the answer. I'm sure if we went to socialized medicine, there would be lots of ppl who would suddenly be saying "Well, I dont like THIS either. I wish we could have another system/go back to the old system." No one program is going to work perfectly for every person in the country. Both types have PROBLEMS, FLAWS in their system.

& we have some forms of socialized med. here in the US- Medicare, Medicaid, etc....those are obviously flawed systems, they are not without their problems.

Like one plus I can think of for treatments here in the US with the current system- if I want treatments for certain things, I can get them TODAY. Or in a week. Consider what my husband just had done- he would wait MONTHS for that in a socialized care system, its not considered "emergency" and there are long waits for these types of treatments. I would not be OK waiting months for someone to figure out what is wrong with him. I dont like the thought of someone telling me he wasnt important enough or his problems werent important enough to be treated ASAP.

Its my understanding fertility treatments are the same way. Who wants the govt telling you that you can finally have a baby (for those requiring treatments) when THEY get around to saying its your turn?

I'd like to see someone come up with a REAL solution to the healthcare problems in this country. I dont think our current system or other countries socialized med. programs are really the answer.

msoulz replied:

This is most certainly true!

I wish I had THE answer, but as Crystal so well pointed out, THE answer to me may not be THE answer to you. But it certainly does not seem right that one should have to choose between a house and health.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
Exactly what I was going to say.

amynicole21 replied: Still, our "lower" taxes go to a lot of things that are frivolous and I don't agree with. I'd gladly pay taxes for healthcare (would probably still come out less than what I pay through work for my whole family), CHEAP daycare and free university for everyone (which they have in France, too). I know you can't pick and choose what your taxes go for, but those things seem a lot more beneficial to the average American than roads to nowhere and some other things I can think of.

amynicole21 replied: Here's a timely article on Yahoo today about people traveling to Mexico for cheaper dental care.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080201/lf_nm_...usa_dentists_dc

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I'd love to be paying only 12% in taxes...but I'll stick to my bracket and health care.

CantWait replied:
But why wouldn't you be able to pick and choose where your taxes go to. Why pay taxes if it's absolutely not going to benefit you in any way??? Lets face it, we have to pay taxes, the services we get have to get paid from somewhere. But, it's like the elderly paying taxes in my town, and they're actually paying for my kids to take to the school bus, cause that's part of where are taxes go to. Why should they pay for my kids to ride the school bus? Everyone needs healthcare though.

As a Canadian, you guys can agree or disagree with SICKO and Michael Moore, I've seen the movie, and our healthcare system rocks. It's portrayed in the movie, the way it really is. We don't pay a cent. As for nursing homes, why shouldn't we pay? We're handing off our elderly to someone else to care for them because we don't want to. As Rocky said, nursing homes provide food, shelter, entertainment, facilities and easy access to hospital.

We sometimes complain about wait times etc...but really now.
Hospital wait times in Emergency rooms can be brought down if people stop coming in for the flu, or when babies bump their head, or when they have a tummy ache. All it does it get people waiting there with ligitenment problems sick, it's a viscious cycle.

jcc64 replied: I can't for the life of me understand how Americans can defend our system. To me, the most startling point Moore made in the movie concerns those who erroneously believe that b/c they have insurance, they'll be ok in the event of a catastrophic illness or injury. There is a lifetime spending cap on most policies- the industry standard is 1 million dollars, after which, you are out on the street. And, with a pre-existing illness, you would not be able to find another policy once the first one ran out. That is absolutely criminal to me. The failure of our gov't to intervene on behalf of the sick and the suffering against the insatiable greed of insurance companies is DISGUSTING.
My father did everything right in his lifetime. He was never w/o excellent, top-of-the-line health coverage, worked non-stop until retirement, and then got very very ill with back to back heart disease, Hepatitus C and 2 separate cancer diagnoses. His bills ran well over a million dollars. Luckily for him (and for us, who would have been stuck with his bills posthumously), his employer switched healthcare plans a few times during his illnesses, and for that reason only, he didn't reach his lifetime maximum.
Stop believing the bs that business-friendly politicians (and I'm sorry, but the Republicans are the biggest offenders here) and the industry itself keep shovelling our way. We average middle class Americans w/o an unlimited supply of wealth, are ALL vulnerable to the inadequacies of our system.
I frankly do not know why socialized medicine has become such a bad idea in this country- what do you think medicare is? The gov't isn't perfect- but we gave the free market free reign, and they have failed us miserably. Our healthcare system is not "the best" in the world- while we have cutting edge, state-of-the-art technologies, they are in no way available to all, or even most of us b/c they are too expensive and are bankrupting our economy. Nor is cutting edge technology the only over-priced part of the equation. My insurance company was charged $7 for each tylenol that I was given when I delivered my kids. At the time, I thought that was crazy, but I didn't care b/c the insurance was picking up the tab. Well, knowing that the meter's running- I care now.
Imo, the ability to access care immediately and on demand is not the sole criteria for a perfect system. Sometimes, we Americans can act like petulent, spoiled children- we want what we want when we want it, whether it's medically essential or not. If the price to pay for more comprehensive, global coverage is a longer wait time for some procedures, it's a price I'm willing to pay. At least I know that when I'm old and sick, I won't be having to choose between my medications or heating my house.
My aunt has stage 3 breast cancer. Her dr has her on a medication that is $400 A PILL, which she pays out of pocket b/c she was self-employed with no prescription drug coverage. She's fighting for her life, and has to be worried about $$$. She's moved in with my mother to save $$$. Whether you choose to disbelieve what Michael Moore is saying or not, that is insanity.

Calimama replied:

That's not always true. My dad is in a nursing home because my mom can no longer care for him. He requires 24 hour MEDICAL attention that she can't give. Him along with the rest of the people on his FLOOR NEED to be there. It's certainly not because she doesn't WANT to care for him anymore.

MommyToAshley replied:
Hey Amy -- I am happy to say we are on the same side on both accounts -- insurance and free universities. Everyone should have the same rights and access to health care and education... regardless of their income.

However, I did watch a news special where they debunked about every statement made in Michael Moore's movie. He twisted facts and reported only partial facts. I haven't seen the movie myself, but just as one example: the part about Cubian health system... what he reported was only for the very rich and politically important people, not the hospitals that every day citizens see.

So, while I agree we need reform, I don't think the other systems are as perfect as the movie leads us to believe. There are probably some that are better than our system, but I don't think they are as perfect as portrayed in the movie. Our current system is not working, but I don't know that I have heard anyone come up with a better answer. At this point, I'd be willing to try anyting except the plan that Hillary proposed when Bill was in office. I was excited to hear about the health care reform bill at the time, and I was open to the idea. However, her medical reform bill had so many holes in it, it was a complete failure. I'd definitely support a medical reform bill that had some substance though. I think we will have to reform more than our health care system... we'd have to reform tax laws as well (like maybe going to a national sales tax).

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: I have never seen any of his movies. But yes, our "system" is screwed up royally. But we keep feeding into it because we assume it's better than any other countries'. We think we are getting the best care, but if we are, why are we as a country so sick?

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Hon that's not a nursing home, that's a hospice. Not the same. (well that floor anyways). It's totally different. When my grandfather was fairly advanced in his cancer... he couldn't just have an RN come in the home anymore...he needed to be placed in the palliative care wing of a nursing home.

Nursing homes are generally just the basic medical things... like regular blood pressure checks, they'll take care of your prescriptions, they'll handle diapers etc... they'll do small check ups etc... but 24 hour supervision falls into hospice category. People at a nursing home are usually more able to care for themselves than people at a hospice. Of course there are many different levels of nursing home... the one I used to live at was a glorified apartment complex, really... heated pool, gym, cafeteria, but there was also alarm buttons and speakerphones in each appartmebnt, and an on site doctor and pharmacy. There was a wing for the ones who needed care. It was still considered a nursing home... but was more like a glorified apartment complex. Beautiful, really. AND, it wasn't all that expensive... between 700 - 900 for one person, one bedroom, and the most expensive I believe was about 3500 for a 2 person 2 br all services included...

the OTHER home from the same company was more of a hospice style nursing home.. and those rooms were ranging more between 2000 - 3000 for one person, and up to 4500 for two... but that was 24 hour medical care and supervision, often palliative care.

Calimama replied:
He's not in hospice. I don't mean he has a nurse sitting over his bed all day. What I meant by 24 hour care is that he's never alone, like he was in our house when I was at school and my mom was at work. He requires help if he falls, he needs help getting to the bathroom, eating, he gets P/T, he's given his medicine on a regular basis, he's taken to his doctor's appointments (which is a blessing because we can't get him in and out of the car).. things like that. He's not on breathing machines or anything like that, but he IS getting 24 hour care.

As for the heated pool and such that sounds more like a retirement community than it does a nursing home. My dad has bingo and such but it's certainly not like an apartment complex.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Oh ok. I misunderstood I guess!

I thought you meant like he couldn't do anything on his own.

I'll have to post the website or something of where I lived. It was fabulous!!

Hillbilly Housewife replied: There are some pics here of the outside, the lobby, the pool, the stairs in the middle of the cafeteria.

http://www.chateaujouvence.com/ernest.html


This one is the more care home, you can see a couple of the amenities, like the library, pool hall, bingo hall etc...

http://www.chateaujouvence.com/stlouis.html


Not the greatest pics... but you get the idea.

CantWait replied:
You're right, sorry, I did word that wrong.

Calimama replied:
He can't. He can't dress himself, can only feed himself if the food is cut already, can't get up by himself, can't go to the bathroom/shower by himself, he can't even go from the wheelchair to the bed himself. That's why he's in a nursing home.

Calimama replied:
Wow that's really nice!!!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Oh... well here that would be in a hospice, it's too much care for typical nursing homes here. In my area, anyways.

Sorry about your dad.

Calimama replied:
When my dad hits the point of needing hospice they'll send him home hopefully and he'll receive the last days of care there. For him hospice will set in when he has 6 months or less of life left, but he doesn't qualify for that yet.

Thanks.

MommyToAshley replied:
You pay for it... you just don't pay it in the form of health care premiums. When we went to Niagara Falls, we stayed on the Canadian side. My MIL went with us and she had a fit everytime we bought something, there were two sales taxes. We asked what the second tax was, and we got the reply that it goes towards the medical. We could have gotten that tax portion back when we crossed the border, but we didn't bother. I also understand that your income tax rate is higher. I am not saying that your system isn't good, I am just saying that you DO pay for your health care... which isn't bad. I'm like Amy, I'd gladly pay more taxes for universal health insurance... as long as I could get treatment when needed.

I have not experienced the Canadian health care system myself, so I can't really comment on the quality. It's good to hear your opinion, and I am glad that you are happy with it. I have a friend that moved there and she says she can never get in to see a doctor when needed. But, in talking to some of the Canadians that live there, they love it. Even on this board, some say they love it others say the wait to too long. So... I have heard a mixed reaction.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Oh the wait is definitely too long when it comes to non-emergency things. Going to the ER for a cold is just dumb in Canada....not only do you wait about 8 hours, but you make other ppl sick. When it is something serious, they will see you right away. There is a really good triage system.

Sometimes I'd rather have the OPTION to pay for quicker service though.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

http://sbinfocanada.about.com/cs/taxinfo/g/gst.htm

The PST, which is the 8% that we pay, goes to the Provinces directly as opposed to the GST which goes to the federal government - and this is the tax that governs our provincial health care systems.

ETA - oops - I put 5% for the pst. The GST is the one that is 5%.

CantWait replied:
That tax isn't in EVERY province.

Only in Ontario, and really it's not that much.

In Alberta, we pay about $40 a year.

NB not a cent in any way shape or form.

When it comes to seeing a doctor, it's harder to get in to see your family doctor in NB, however again in Alberta and Ontario it's much easier, bigger provinces.

There are walk ins though, everywhere if you can't get in to your family doctor. Honestly I think some people just want EVERYTHING to be perfect.

CantWait replied: I should also say that a portion of medical expenses imposed (perscriptions) is claimable on income tax.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Here's a link showing what it is in all the provinces. Not too sure how updated it is, since Ontario has a 5% rate as of January 5th 2008, but it looks accurate enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_Canada

CantWait replied:
It doesn't say anything about the healthcare tax though. They do have one, it's not stated on pay stubs, but there is money taken off for that purpose.

redchief replied: Partisanship aside, there's no arguing that our health care system is in serious need of reform. Saying that, I must say that nothing Michael Moore produces can be compared in any way to a documentary. Moore has an agenda and does his patent best to force it into the public eye at all times. However, I must admit that Moore has done less politicking in this film than in his previous Moorecumentaries. But to balance whatever you're getting from him, it's very important to take another angle at any topic he presents. In this particular case, I've gone outside the United States, since conservatives hate him completely.

I think you all should read this piece from Great Britain on Michael Moore's angle on European health care.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...icle2753620.ece

Back to my original point, and expanding on the points that have been made before. Our health care system is in need of overhaul and I don't know the answers. Medicare is a bankrupt disaster, but so are many families who don't have corporate medical insurance. We are somewhat spoiled in our get what we want society here, and others suffer for it. If it weren't for the nearly universal failure of nearly every nationwide program the US government handles, I might indeed be for socializing the medical industry. Unfortunately the government doesn't know how to produce anything without throwing away a ton of taxpayer money. I find it hard to believe they can do medicine right, given their track records. So, what is the answer? I wish I knew.

Two years ago we had a roommate of John's spend a goodly portion of the summer with us. He was very worried that his parents would not be able to pay his tuition the following year. He made it into school, but he had to work two jobs in order to make his bills. His mother is a doctor on Italy's socialized medical field. Are your doctors willing to take pay cuts like that to continue practice? What about less educated fields of medicine like nursing, who in the European systems are abandoning it as fast as they can secure jobs in the United States? As I said, I don't know what the answers are here.

jcc64 replied:

Yeah, like the war, maybe? Just think what we could have done with all that money...
About MM, I do agree that his "documentaries" are heavily edited in service to his ego and his political agenda, but hey, so is Bill O'Reilly, Rupert Murdoch and most of Fox News, and people believe that anyway.......

When I watched "Sicko", I did feel that his rap on the Cuban system and the French/British systems was very one-dimensional, simplistic, and would greatly discredit his work. We are capable of understanding inconsistencies and nuances, and sometimes, I think he tends to enfantilize his audience.
Having said that, I am all for calling attention to the train-wreck that is our healthcare system, however it needs to happen. No system is perfect, some less so than others. But as I said before, I'd gladly make sacrifices if I knew I could grow old or sick and not financially destroy everyone who cares about me. It's hard enough to deal with a loved one's critical illness without having to worry about something stupid like money.

redchief replied:
Heyyy... maybe that's why I can't stand him.

Who the heck is Rupert Murdock?

Anyway, since I'm not vain and don't need the health care system for it's perks, I'd be all for a more regulated (even heavily) system. I definitely don't think the government belongs in charge of it though. The only thing they can do right is... STOP. Staying on topic, because I'm being good.

Sakeloonie replied: I've lived in both the U.S. and now Canada. Neither system is without it's faults.

At home (Kansas) I always tried to make sure I had a job that came with health insurance benefits. It limited the jobs I was able to take, a sacrifice I was willing to make. At one point I did have a job without benefits, I bought a catistrophic illness policy for a fairly small amount of $$ for the peace of mind. I was always happy with the care I received.

In Ontario, as already mentioned we pay in the form of taxes and a premium. It is like being in a giant HMO in some ways, as the Provincial Government decides which treatments will/won't be covered. If it isn't covered, even if it is your only chance of survival, you can't buy it. People in this situation often wind up going to the States to buy the treatment, losing their homes, etc. in the process. The wealthy also often buy their treatment in the States to bypass the wait times.

We also have supplemental insurance through Gus' work which covers costs not included in the univeral system (dental, vision, drug, physiotherapy, upgraded hospital rooms). Even with the supplemental policy, I DID get a hospital bill with Lance, maybe just because I'm spoiled and didn't want to share a room with 3 other people, I wanted a TV and I wanted to make a couple of local phone calls. The bill was only about $200, but it was a bill.

I'm not knocking either system, just trying to point out neither is perfect IMO. I wouldn't let the healthcare thing influence any future decisions on which country we live in. Just my humble 2 cents.

Dee

CantWait replied:
That's a choice they make. Those under Ontario healthcare still are covered for life threating illnesses such as cancer etc....

luvmykids replied:
Thanks, its interesting to hear from someone who has dealt with both.

So this all raises another question....in Canada, its technically not national healthcare if each province does it their own way, right?

Sakeloonie replied: Sorry Can't Wait, not necessarily. There was a story about 8 months ago on Global News about a Toronto woman who had colon cancer. Doctors told her the only chance at the stage of her cancer was a certain treatment that the Ontario Ministry of Health had deemed "experimental". She pled with the Government to allow her the treatment, to no avail (they don't call George Smitherman "The Pitbull" for nothin'). She spent her whole life savings and sold or mortgaged her house to afford treatment in Buffalo. If I remember the story right, the treatment saved her, and she was just making her story known. I've since heard others on the news that were similar.

There is also a certain procedure I'd like to have done, it has to do with ummm the need to buy "Poise" pads. The procedure only costs $400. It is a covered procedure under OHIP. The Ontario Govt., however, does not grant many permits for these procedures. Since it IS covered under OHIP I can't pay $400 and have a doctor do it, if I'm not approved here, I would have to have it done in the States and pay lots more for it. Not life threatening, I know, but embarassing and frustrating that they pick and chose a very few women to grant the procedure to.

Once again, just my humble opinion and 2 cents.

Dee

Sakeloonie replied: luvmykids, I'm no expert on how the whole thing works. Every Canadian citizen or landed immigrant is entitled to universal health care, each Province manages their own program under this mandate.

For example, the coverage for autistic children here in Ontario is not so great. There have been many stories of families of said autistic children moving to other Provinces with better coverage just to get the treatment they felt their children needed.

The cancer treatment I mentioned in my previous post is also approved in some of the other Provinces, but when you move, you have to wait 3 months for the new coverage to kick in. This lady didn't have that much time, thus her purchasing it in Buffalo.

I'll go away now .

Dee

luvmykids replied:
No, no, this is very interesting to me

CantWait replied:
I've lived in 3 provinces, and for the most part the healthcare is the same. It's like any city though, some places have better facilities etc...Edmonton for example, has a cancer treatment centre, and so forth.

New Brunswick is a very small province in compassion to Ontario, Alberta (which is booming right now), or even Quebec, therefore the quality of care isn't as good in terms of specialties in Autism, or Special needs children.

Every province has the same healthcare, just maybe less then another one. Some provinces, like New Brunswick, you might have to travel 2 hours away to a specialist, or even 4 hours to the province of Nova Scotia.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: The general coverage is about the same from province to province. It's just a matter of how it's regulated, really... how far the line is pushed for the treatments... and the number of specialists.

Yes, we do get bills sometimes for hospital stays... but that's for the people, who, like sakeloonie said, want a private room versus a shared room, or a phone line, cable, etc... i'm sorry - but medical care does NOT include a private room, telephone, tv etc... it involves medical care. Yes, we pay for upgrades on comfort... we're at the hospital for care, not the comfort of electronics, and it should remain that way. Why waste space / money on private rooms, just for the sake of personal bubbles?

For what it's worth, the ontario health ploan DOES pay for a portion of dental, vision care etc... it's just not a huge amount. Like, you couldn't go get cleanings every 3 months, you coudln't buy glasses every year... but they do visions tests every 2 years, and they do pay for a portion of orthodontics, and there are some fairly cheap plans out there that cover the rest.

Neither is perfect... but ours is sure good. heh heh

MommyToAshley replied:
I agree... don't go away. I found your comments interesting, as well as the others that live there.

coasterqueen replied: I'm going to try not to say much about this. My only questions are....

Ok, let's give everyone free health care, let's give everyone free college, let's have everyone make the same pay so there are no social classes.........let's just become a communist country where the government controls everything and we are all treated completely equal, but have NO freedoms.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am not saying give everyone the same pay, give everyone the same job... but everyone should have the same opportunities for success.

I don't think the wealthy should be taxed more just because they are successful and have worked hard to get where they are... what would be the motivation to do better if you made the same pay as someone that didn't go for 8 years of college and worked hard to get where they are. If we continue to try to penalize the rich for doing better, then yes we are headed towards a socialist nation. And, I am middle class... no where close to being wealthy.

But, I do think that everyone deserves the right to go to college if they want to go. The current system is not fair to that person that wants to go to college, will work hard, but just doesn't come from the right economic background. Just because someone has access to college doesn't mean they will automatically become a doctor, lawyer, or President of the United States... they will have to work hard to get there. But, what's the motivation to get there if once they reach success, they are penalized by giving half their pay to those others?

The same holds true for health care. Everyone should have the same opportunities to be treated for medical issues regardless of their economic status.

coasterqueen replied: I agree, everyone should have the same rights for healthcare and college. I just think it won't stop there. This is the Democractic party point of view where everyone should be equal on ALL terms and that scares me to death. If we are all equal then we might as well go live in China or other countries similar to that. I see letting the government take over areas such as healthcare and college, that they will continue to take over more, because that is what people want them to do. They want and see that the government owes them and will continue to take and take and take and never give.

I am middle class, too. I see as long as the democratic party has their way we, middle class, will cease to exist one day. And I don't think we'll be in the upper class because of it

Big government only makes things worse, IMO and IMO the government will screw healthcare and college programs up as well.

jcc64 replied: C'mon, Karen, you're smarter than that! No one is suggesting that we give up on our beloved capitalism. But an acknowledgment from our system that in many case, the free market cannot be trusted to care for those who have little or no power, such as poor children, critically ill people, etc... would strengthen us all! If you can't understand this on a compassionate level, understand it on an economic one. Someone help me out here with the numbers- we spend an INSANE portion of our GDP on healthcare. Wouldn't you rather find ways to better distribute our resources so our schools are better, for example?
And as far as I'm concerned, our president has done more than anyone else in recent memory to destroy our personal freedoms, if you're really worried about that- why don't you take it up with him and his supporters? And why, why can facilitating a college education ever a bad thing? As I said in my previous post, if we can come up with the TRILLIONS of dollars to fund this meaningful war, why can't we support our kids???
When I was in college- my loans from the gov't (during the Reagan yrs) were at 9.45%, which I paid over ten years. Is that really the best we can do to help kids train themselves to be the most productive citizens possible???? If we lift one person up, we lift up everyone around him, including you and me.

coasterqueen replied:
Well, seeing first hand what the ALLKIDSCARE program in the good ole state of Illinois is doing I know why big government taking over healthcare is a disaster. Do you want to know how many people called our hotline spouting off about how now that our state has free health insurance for kids they were going to cancel their kids on their own health insurance? Do you want to know what the good citizens in this state did? They canceled their children on their own health insurance policies so that their kids could get FREE healthcare so they could save a few bucks a month. Did every responsible citizen do that? No. Did I do that so I could save money each month? No. The problem is people think they are owed everything and abuse the system. It's those people that make these systems NOT work. The sad thing is these kids have to be w/o insurance for a year before getting on the program so now we have kids with no insurance so their parents could save some money and wait until the FREE healthcare system kicks in. This is obsurd. This is why we can't get an all person free healthcare system in this state passed. Our governor has been trying to do it for years.

I have compassion for those who can't get healthcare or afford it. Believe me I can BARELY afford it. We've had to use credit cards to pay off a lot of ours.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am against Bigger Government as well... and I do believe that free enterprise and competition in the business world is what brings about advances in medicine and technology... and what also keeps prices lower.

I think the government should get their hands off our retirement funds... I am all for privatizing social security. If I had earned interest on every dime I paid into social security, then there would be no need for social security in retirment. I'd be better off. But, I have to pay for those that don't work and therefore my funds are cut in half. When you think about the poor children, I don't mind giving up funds... but then I get angry when I read about those that abuse the system with my money.

With all that being said, I don't have the answers, but I do know the currrent system is not working. In fact, the ones that are being hurt are the middle class. Low income can get grants for college and they can get medicare. The wealthy can afford insurance and college tuition... it's the middle class that can't afford either or have to go in debt to educate themselves or pay for a health issue.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Um.... college / university isn't free here.

There are tons of grants and help to get $$ though... so anyone can go... even if you can't afford it - if you make the grades and can prove you rewally ant to be there, they will give you a grant, there will be a way for you to attend. Everyone has the same opportunity here, as opposed to only the rich getting into the best schools and the poor keep dropping out because there's no point for them to work hard since they can't afford schooling.

As for healthcare... what makes the rich more important to treat than those who cna't afford it? Health care should be a priority, not paying for it. You social status shuold have3 no bearing on how well / fast you're treated, and you shouldn't have to worry about possibly losing your house over treatment. Money doesn't make you more of an american than the poor guy down the block who can't afford it... and lack of money doesn't make you any less important to society than someone with money. You can have money and be a complete tool.

One thing i've noticed about Canada vs US is that in Canada... everyone has a chance... in the US...only the rich do.

MommyToAshley replied:
I'm not sure that is a fair statement given the world we live in today. Had you made this statement before 9/11 and all the recent attempted terrorist attacks, then I would probably agree with you. But, I have to say that I'd rather give up a few personal freedoms for a little safety. I assume that is what you are talking about. With that being said, I am angry that he doesn't do anything about the borders -- which I am sure is because it would hurt his political standing among Texans and others in the border states.

Sorry, I think I got a bit OT.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am not saying our system is perfect, but as mentioned in statements by others, there are some that think Canada's health care system isn't ideal either. Again, I don't know as I have not experienced it for myself... but it seems there are pros and cons to both.

I don't know anything about the higher education system in your country. Are there specific requirements for the grants? There are grants available here as well.. but there are requirements like caps in your income. That's where it seems like the middle class gets the raw deal. High school students can also get scholarships for good grades here but they are usually only the top few in each class.

coasterqueen replied:
I could not agree more.

Oh and to a previous point - privatize social security----I'm ALL for it.

Boys r us replied: I DO think our government needs to take over healthcare. however, I don't buy into anything Michael Moore puts out. He's so slanted!

I also have to say that Nothing is Free! Ever..anytime ..EVER!
We would pay for it! One other thing..our health care is through the roof mostly b/c our government allows frivilous law suits to be won time and time again. I personally don't know who in their right mind would want to be a doctor in our country! There is way too much risk..but that is the american way...we the people ruin good things, then we the people complain when it's broken..

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Oh it's definitely not ideal... there are the wait times for non life threatening things... you can get into any clinic... the registration takes care of your symptoms etc and so you get seen faster if you have something serious... as opposed to just going in becasue yuo have the sniffles... BUT if you have something serious, you get seen right away. You get treatment right away.

For me - getting my tubes tied... i'm on a list. Becasue it's not an "important" surgery. There are people ahead of me becasue they have more serious afflicitions to be taken care of... there's ony so many doctors / surgeons, and they're not wasting their time with frivolous operations before spending their time on the people who need them to live. So, I will go in when they have time for me.

If I needed the surgery for medical reasons, I'd be higher up on the list. It's not first come first served, it's who needs it more gets it first. There isn't so much a sense of entitlement as you guys have... it just wouldn't do to call our peds etc for every little cough and sniffle an dhave them call us back. They'd laugh....although it would be nice.

It's not ideal - but it's certainly better than having to worry about losing my house!! lol

For grants and stuff - really the only limit is your grades. They're not going to give you any grants if you're not trying... and for financial aid, it goes by a cap on income, yes, but not always.... it depends on a bunch of other things, such as living situation, bills, etc... the middle class is a little worse off than higher and lower class here as well... but not that badly.

MommyToAshley replied:
You bring up a good point. Doctors don't make as much as we think, because they have to pay so much in insurance premiums to protect against these frivolous lawsuits. The only ones benefiting from our healthcare programs are the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies.

But, on the other hand, it is nice to know that doctors are held accountable. If the government took over healthcare, would you be able to hold the doctor accountable if he made a serious mistake? You can't sue the government. So would doctor's be held to as high standards? Rocky, Marie.... how does that work in Canada? Plus, how much say/control would the government have in what procedures we need done. Right now the insurance companies seem to have more say that the doctors.... will that role just shift to the government. I think that decision needs to be placed in the hands of the physician and patient.

There's a lot to think about.

Amy, thanks for bringing up this topic...even though it went a little OT, it has given me a lot to think about.

luvmykids replied: I'm not necessarily for government taking over health care, but maybe regulating it just like utilities where there is a cap on what can be charged. It's outrageous to charge $7 for a tylenol, why are they even allowed to do that? If they charged a normal, fair and regulated fee for goods and services then I could afford healthcare and those that couldn't could be helped for much less.

I'm not in any way for communistic thinking, I don't think we should all receive equal pay regardless of our job, etc.... like Dee Dee said, whats the point in achieving and succeeding then? I agree also that the wealthy shouldn't be penalized for their success....why do we have such a chip on our shoulder towards the wealthy?

I, for one, think the government could go a long way towards helping us in the health care department without taking it over.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
One reason we have the GST. Sure..we ahve 2 taxes... but total is between 9 & 15% depending on the province of canada you're in... so... whatever, we don't really notice it off our pay, I guess we're used to it...? I'd rather pay taxes than have to worry about paying 7$ for a tylenol... eep!!

I can't type today...

luvmykids replied:
Exactly my feelings. I'd rather pay higher taxes, even if it was along the lines of the fair tax, if I knew it guaranteed me health care. I can swing a dr visit but any kind of injury, even as minor as when Macie had to get staples in her head, is out of my affordability range because they charge such inflated amounts for everything

Our Lil' Family replied: I will never be in favor of government controlled health care! I know our health care/insurance policies/pharmaceutical companies need huge refining and I hope that will be taken care of but I like knowing I have control (for the most part) of my health care.

Plus....DH is in health care...that's our source of income (will be in May)...I'm not sure where that would put us if the government took over. Not that we'd be out on the street or anything but that sort of unknown for my family makes me very uneasy.

jcc64 replied:

You absolutely can. School districts get sued ALL THE TIME. That's the gov't. And when people are wrongly incarcerated, they may sue for compensatory damages. That's also the gov't. There are ways to oversee gov't sponsored or monitored healthcare- imo, that's not a reason not to pursue it.
People brought up a lot of valid points here, and it's been a very fruitful discussion, imo. About the Illinois system and the ensuing abuses, all I can say is, I would venture a guess that the ratio of children, yes it's children we're talking about here, that benefitted from access to medical care far outnumbered the children of those who sought to "beat the system." There are ALWAYS going to be people who try to beat the system, any system, and that's between them and their conscience or their god or whatever. But, it's not a reason to completely disregard the need for some sort of intervention on behalf of those on the margins. There are LOTS of people who cheat on their taxes, and I'm not talking about low income people or welfare cheats, but big corporate outfits who move their operations or their post office boxes offshore to avoid paying millions, or the very wealthy top 5%, who have already benefited from very generous tax cuts designed to put more $$$ in their already bulging pockets, but still have armies of accountants and lawyers finding ways to beat the system. Where's the outrage for this? Why is it always a discussion of the people at the bottom, who have so little to begin with.
I admire people who can make it up from nothing with no help. But not everyone can, and it's not a simple matter of a character flaw or laziness. There are real impediments to making it in this country, and we can't always look at things from our own limited experiences.
Why do I have something against rich people? The answer is- I only have something against rich people who make it to the top and then want to slam the door shut behind them. People who have more than they can ever use in this or any other lifetime, but don't see the tragedy in people having to choose between healthcare or eating. You shouldn't have to put your medical insurance on a credit card, Karen. That's exactly my point.

CantWait replied:
Well I don't know if I completely agree with everyone being able to go to college etc...

The only time I could afford to go to school was when Ron and I were seperated.

When we were together, as a typical middle class family, in order to obtain a student loan we would have had to sold our car, our only source of transportation.
As for grants there are tons of different kinds, so yes there are requirements, and they usually only cover a very small portion of the costs.

lisar replied: Here is my opinion on that....

You cant loose your land in America because of medical bills. It goes on your credit. You wont loose something you already own. It would just take you longer to buy something else. More money etc.....Because of bad credit. Do I want health like canada has. No I dont. Why: Becuase when my kid is sick I dont want to wait for them to see a specialist. I want to be able to make that appt for the next day and take them in there then. I dont want to wait a week or month. I know some people wait longer than others. But thats partly my reason. To many people take advantage now of the medicaid system here and get free drugs and money. And if we went to the same health system as canada then personally I think things would get worse. People would be getting these drugs for free. Atleast now they have to pay for them. Most of them cant afford to go to the dr to get them. Why would we wanna hand them to them for free? And this is just my opinion. I know everyone has diffrent opinions on this. Also I want to be able to choose my dr's. There are alot of quacks here that I would refuse to go to. So what would happen if I wouldnt get a choice in the matter. I pay for my health insurance. And I would rather continue to do that.

As for everyone that lives in Canada please dont take this as I hate your country or something I dont. I am sure there are things about America's system that you dont like. There are lots I dont like that America does and there are things that canada does that I do like.

jcc64 replied: And yeah, Amy, ita with Dee Dee, thanks for bringing this up. It's an important conversation to have and keep having before the election. And thank you to everyone involved for asking great questions, raising very salient points, and keeping it civilized. Bravo all around!

TheOaf66 replied: Wow lots of good points made in this one

I would like to make a few of my own though

1. I agree the system is messed up in a lot of way but that is what happens when you have to different ideologies (Rep and Dems) that cancel each other out and has the "I'm right, you're wrong" philosophy so they end up dead locked and are not able to make any real progress because neither will submit to other ones ideas.

2. I will say one thing about the Canadien arguement (not to offend anyone ) regarding the tax dollars. One point I will make is that a lot of money in the US is spent on the military and you don't really have that expense because our military protects your country pretty much. I am not confirming 100% but I think that is accurate.

3. I am not saying our country is perfect but I love it none the less, if you live in the US and you choose to complain about it that is totally your choice But I believe in the philosophy...love it or leave it. (no disrespect to anyone)

coasterqueen replied:
The problem is government has never done a good job, whether democrat or republican run, at managing such programs - take welfare. Do you really honestly think they are going to be able to manage and run a healthcare system much better? I don't think so. I just don't think it will be managed effectively and you will have those who really need it not getting it.

lisar replied:
ITA......... Our goverment is not capable of running it...

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

Yet, we don't ahve an expense. Wow.

We wouldn't ahve such a high expense, had we not been forced to accompany the US army to it's "war on terror" . But that's a whole other topic.

TheOaf66 replied: as I said Rocky I was not 100% on anything, I personally just have never heard Canada's name brought up when any military issue is happening...I sincerely apologize if I offended any canadiens

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
You didn't offend me, it's just that we don't spend as much as you guys, because we're not on the offense... we're more of the defense type. We don't just go and invade...we help keep the peace and help rebuild, and help protect the innocents. You don't hear much about our military and that kind of stuff, because canada's not as in your face as the us is about that stuff...

lisar replied:
I think its because canada keeps a low profile. Thats why no one targets them they target us. I like that they keep a low profile if america would have done the same thing then I think things would have been diffrent.

And for the whole canada "had" to follow the U.S. on the war on terror I am gona leave that one alone......

TheOaf66 replied:
well blame that one on the WWII result. After we came in and kicked a$$ then we were apparently declared the worlds "bouncer" whenever someone becomes disorderly. I agree things would be different if we didn't take on that role but oh well someone had to.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

Go to germany now - with both the american flag and the canadian flag displayed on a small pouch on your bag or whatever... display one at a time, and see when you get better treatment. When displaying the canadian flag or the american flag. Many american tourists have learned that trick already.

TheOaf66 replied:
The american army just pretty much steps in and shoots everything, as far as what the media portrays here. I know that's not exactly true, but that is the general portrayal of the american army. All muscle, and no brain. "i know it's not necessarily true". ---I agree, not true

Canada's military is often portrayed as the opposite... smaller forces needed because of all the intelligence reports etc... and I'll believe that, considering Canada was the ONLY country to complete all D-day objectives in WW2. --when your role is smaller it is easier to accomplish

CantWait replied:
Are you kidding me???

Not to sound rude, but what facts are basing this on? I think you've been poorly misinformed.

Where's Rick Mercer??

Calimama replied:
Why is this turning into a which country is better debate? Seriously.

CantWait replied:
Troy that's because American t.v. / news doesn't report on Canadian news.

Certainly not true from this end of the border.

And as far as mission objectives being smaller, maybe that's because our military is smaller due to the lower population we have. Look at the American population in comparrison to ours.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Our military is smaller because we don't have as many people here as you do. Statistics wise, I'm fairly certain that the same % of troops / populatin is there.



We get all the media coverage from the US, we see all that happens on your news... you guys don't get all of ours.

It's not a debate about whose country is better, certainly not for me - just trying to say that what Troy posted about the american army having to protect canada and canada having no military budget is complete BS, and I didn't want people to think of it in this false way... because clearly, even someone who keeps up tp date with the news can be misinformed, and i wanted to make sure that it was cleared up.

Calimama replied:
Ohh okay then sorry. Aren't the Canadian troops in Afghanistan?? We NEVER hear about them when some of them are out there doing the same thing American troops are. That's sad.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

I don't know how any of that can make us seem un-involved. The media runs it all, I tell ya. That's from 2003... we've since put many more millions into this darn war. and to remain on topic - we STILL have our free health care.

If you want to read more of the article I quoted from above: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/ind...s=M1ARTM0012515

lisar replied: I think the news tells us what they wants us to hear. I am not saying America is better than canada. Heck I like em both and one day I wish to visit canada....

But as far as the americans just going in and shooting things up thats not all true. (and I am not saying thats what you said so dont take it that way) Do we shoot things darn right we do and I think we should. Do canadians shoot things I am sure they do we just dont hear about it like the americans..... We do have more troops and yes it is because of the population diffrence. So therefore we have more troops in the war, so we hear more about us. And you will hear of canadians in the war on the news here is florida. If something bad happens to one of thier men then they will let us know. They dont show them shooting people but if one dies they will put his name on our news channel here. And its a local station so I think it is there decision weather or not to show it. KWIM?

I personally think EVERYONE who has replied is right in there own ways. No names mentioned Rocky, Troy!!!!!!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
lol Lisa!

you get what your country's leaders want you to see. You can't FAKE it, but yu can EDIT it.

Ah well... doesn't really matter. I'm healthy.

TheOaf66 replied: the US is the Brittany Spears of military...we get all the media coverage

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
You know that Britney Spears is unethical, no moral values, no respect for others or herself, self-indulged, petulant, rude, narcissitic... and the list goes on...

Do ya wanna maybe choose another celebrity or rephrase your statement?

TheOaf66 replied:
Oprah?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Fair enough.

It's unbelieveable, though, sometimes, how we (both as north americans) can be as uneducated about each other, even being as close neighbours as we are. There are a whole lot of things we get in our news coverage that make me go it would be interesting to compare notes!

lisar replied:
Thats a much better choice.

lisar replied:
Sooooooooooo True...

TheOaf66 replied:
completely Rocky, an eye opener for me anyways and my apologies again to anyone offended I was going off of opinion and not facts.

Now Rocky, can you do something about the flippin cold arctic air you keep sending our way

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Are you kidding me? we don't send the cold air your way, we just perfume it with the lovely winter fresh smell as it travels over our igloos....

TheOaf66 replied:
well that is one thing you don't need to share with us, keep it all for yourselves

lisar replied:
I AGREE WITH THIS!!!!!

holley79 replied: Well I have read everything everyone says.

I was in a serious car accident in 2000 I am still paying for medical bills for it. They are not on my credit report because I make monthly payments to them. I had car insurance which covered up to 100,000 but the lien on my when I was wheeled out of the hospital was 250,000. We knocked it in half. That does not include home hopistal equipment, PT or anything like that. I am still paying for it. With that being said I now have private insurance through work which I don't pay for. DH has private insurance and for his family plan is $80.00 a month. (through my work family plan is 250.00 a month) When I go to the hospital I DO get a private room because I DO NOT care to share a room with someone else. If I'm going to be sick I want to be able to heal in private. All rooms at the hospitals I have been in have TV and Tele at "no additional" cost. I do not get a bill because I'm dual covered.

I do not agree with the goverment taking over health care but I do think they need to regulate it maybe. There are TONS of people who go to the hospital to get their drugs and therefore they run up our healthcare costs.

CantWait replied:
Currently Canada has over 7000 troops stationed across the world OUTSIDE of Canada. Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, Golan Heights, etc.......

Calimama replied:
See I wish America reported on that more.

CantWait replied:
With the exception of Afghanistan, the main priority of the other countries to provide peacekeeping duties. Canada's role in Afghanistan is one of a war effort. There's tons of news on right now about whether the mission should be extended because the lack of effort from other countries in hostiles regions.

There's your update.

Calimama replied:
Thanks!! I feel a little more informed.

PrairieMom replied: You guys are having a really good discussion here, and I am gonna admit that I haven't read it all, so I don't know if this has been touched on at all, but I'm just gonna jump with both feet.

The way I see it, getting socialized medicine isn't really the answer. where the problem for me lies in in the insurance companies, and medical system them selves. If we reformed that, maybe some of our problems would go away.
For example, right now, there aren't really any limits or regulations on what pharmaceutical companies can charge for their meds, and what hospitals can charge for their services.
I am on a newer medication for my asthma, that wasn't covered by my insurance company. They charged me $150 out of pocket for it.
When it became covered under my insurance, they billed my insurance $490. for it. and charged me a $50 copay. for the exact same med. Why are my premiums so high?
Not to mention the fact that private insurance companies can refuse to cover someone for any reason. I am a healthy young, non smoker who's only issue is that i have completely controlled asthma. I am uninsurable. THAT is a joke.

Okay, I am super tired, and a little loopy, so someone correct me if I am wrong. I hope i made sense.

amynicole21 replied:
They pointed that out in the movie, too. When they went to a pharmacy on the corner in Cuba they got the same inhaler for something like $0.05 that the woman pays $120 in the states.

kit_kats_mom replied:
That is 100% true. My aunt and uncle who spent the last decade or so, sailing around the world in their boat, chose to register the boat in her native Canada so they could fly that flag rather than the American flag. They knew they'd run into much less trouble that way.

Cece00 replied:
That is so untrue.

There are grants here too. And loans.

My state has a program where you can go to college for FREE if you have good grades & standardized test scores- it has NOTHING to do with income.

And really, anyone with really good grades can get SOME sort of help financially to go to college.

You have to WANT it to make it work.

If you got all D's and C's in high school, you cant be surprised that its going to be harder for you to go to college and that you may have to pay for it yourself. That has nothing to do with being rich, it has a lot to do with personal responsibility.

jcc64 replied: What state do you live in????
Fyi- I have a perfect 4.0, and I wasn't offered any scholarships. Middle class kids with good grades are a dime a dozen, and it's just not true that there is money available for all or even some of them.
The whole "personal responsibility" term makes my hair stand up on end. I am personally responsible, the person further up on this thread who got in a car accident and racked up $250K in medical bills is personally responsible, my aunt who has to shell out $400 a pill for her cancer meds is personally responsible, and so on and so on. But normal everyday RESPONSIBLE people can't afford our system anymore. And even if you're covered and you don't give a rat's a$$ about anyone else, you're paying for them already b/c hospital ER's are mandated to treat people by law. So, instead of affordable preventative care, you've got people going to ER's b/c that's the only way they can access care, and guess who's paying for those $7 tylenols?? Let's find a way to reform the system so everyone has some kind of safety net, and we're not stuck holding our fingers in the crumbling dyke.

Cece00 replied:
Louisiana. The program is called TOPS.

http://www.osfa.state.la.us/schgrt6.htm

ANYONE has the SAME opportunity in MY state to go to college so I am soooo tired of hearing about "you only have the opportunity if your rich!" which is such BS at least HERE. Income has NOTHING to do with this, your parents can make $1 mil a yr and you can still get tops, its a REWARD program for doing a good job in school & actually trying & giving a crap about your grades.

You can even use it to get a Grad degree.

I've known many ppl (in other states) who were given scholarhips for good grades, so its completely possible. If you go & sit with a financial aid advisor at a school, there are many programs they can help you find to make your college dream a reality, and there are a lot of people who get student loans, or a combo of student loans and grants/scholarships. If you WANT to go to college, you can be poor and still go. In fact, if you are poor, you are more likely to get money for college via grants & scholarhips.

PS- The personal responsibility I am speaking about as far as doing a good job in school if you want to go to college isnt the same as what you are talking about, and thats pretty obvious (I'm talking about personal responsibility with grades & college, not healthcare), so I'm not really sure why you went off on a little tangent there, but anyway...

I'm all for reform in the system...which I posted about EARLIER, when I said our system needs reform but I am not sure socialized medicine is the way to go 100% either.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
lol - yeah... I don't want some D student operating on ME. Unfortunately, D students still get into the top schools and graduate with good grades when mom or dad pays for it.

I should go back to Germany for a few years - I get free university there. heh