Should the Senate Pass Parental - Notification for minors wanting abortion

redchief wrote: The US Senate is considering whether to pass a bill requiring parental notification anytime a minor desires an abortion. The way I see it, there are three issues here. There is a parenting issue in which we have to ask ourselves whether we have a right to know whether or not our daughter is pregnant and considering abortion. And then there's the right to privacy issue that will surely be debated. Finally there will be the moral question of whether abortion should or should not be allowed. I'm sure that people's stance on the third issue will weigh heavily in how they feel about the other two. What does everyone think? Should there be a law requiring parental notification when a minor desires an abortion?

This story prompted the topic:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205429,00.html

PrairieMom replied: I'm gonna say yes. If my daughter is in that kind of trouble I would want to know. Plus, and abortion is a medical procedure. Any other medical procedure would need my consent. Should something go wrong, the child would be covered under MY health insurance.

MyLuvBugs replied: My issue isn't really with the abortion part, but that someone under the age of 18 is having a somewhat Major medical procedure done without a parental consent. In most medical facilities, they Require a parent or legal gaurdian to sign for any medical procedures to be done to a minor. KWIM?

Now, if my daughters lie about their age to get one done...that's a different story. But if they say "I'm 16 and want an abortion." then doesn't the medical community have to have a parent or legal gaurdian sign for it b/c she's a minor?
I guess I thought that was just the law already.

mammag replied: I say definitely yes!! Even besides the fact that I am highly against abortion (except in the case of saving the mother's life), this is a medical procedure and like any other should require parental consent. If a child was riding a motorcycle and got hurt but asked that their parents not be told what happened it would be a no go so why is this any different???

C&K*s Mommie replied: "This is clearly not an issue divided on pro-life or pro-choice lines," said Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev., the bill's original sponsor. "There is broad and consistent support to preserve the rights of parents."
Taking this thought, and putting aside my thoughts on the preo-life/pro-choice issue for a moment, I completely agree with John Ensign. While Florida, does not have laws on the books about parental notification, I am pleased that my IL's were notified of my SIL's intentions to come to my hometown here, and seek a late term abortion. Without the last minute consult of my FIL, there would never have been my nephew Chase.

I do not have any major thoughts on this issue aside from my feelings on abortion in general. I 100% back the law on parental notification. and for the moment I am trying to think and look beyond that, to imagine if I were a parent of a child who sought an abortion, I would surely without a doubt want to know.

Democrats will present several other amendments, including one that would add exceptions for anyone helping girls to end pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.
with this as well. These exceptions in the case of parental notification should be adhered too, but then again my thoughts on abortion come to mind... so that brings me back to square one that abortions are immoral. Again, I personally, am trying to think beyond my feelings, and see the big picture... but it is difficult.
So for an answer, IMO, there should be a national law (with those amendments attached) that would require parental notification.

BAC'sMom replied: I say yes and I'll just leave it at that.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Ed, oh wise one at times. What are your thoughts?

redchief replied: You all never cease to surprise me (and pleasantly at that). As many of you know I am anti-abortion, and I was a little worried this debate would travel down the right to privacy road, without considering the right of the parent to know what is happening and giving them the opportunity to effect that which is happening concerning their minor children.

Regardless of my stance on abortion (I would favor a pro-life law too), I think that over the years, in this area, mostly because of the efforts of the pro-abortion movements, parental rights to know and effect what happens with their children have been sorely abused. Several states have taken corrective action, but as the story suggests, it is all too easy to circumvent those laws by simply crossing state lines. I believe that a federal statute is necessary to ensure the safety of our children. The abortion argument aside, no elective surgery can be done in any other area without parental approval. This is right, and just. Teens can't just go in for cosmetic surgery without parents' permission. They shouldn't be able to terminate a pregnancy without permission either.

coasterqueen replied: I have a world of mixed emotions on this subject and very hard for me to put down on 'paper'.

I do have one thought that has always been in the back of my mind that my mother told me about when she was a teen. My mother got pg with me when she was 18, my dad was 20. Her friend got pg around that same time and was very afraid to tell her mother. I don't remember if abortion was legal then or not, or what the deal was. Anyways, her friend gave herself what my mom would call a "back alley abortion" with a coat hanger. She died. All of this could have been solved in many ways. A - if she had a better relationship with her parents she might be alive today, because she could have gone to her parents; B - If abortion was an option at that time (like I said I don't remember if it was or not) then she may be alive today; C - Along the lines of B, if she was given the education on her choices she may be alive; and finally, D - I think to myself IF abortion was an option to her and she didn't feel comfortable to tell her mom, then she could have gotten it done and would be alive.

So with D I think to myself about those girls who feel abortion is their only option that is RIGHT for THEM, but don't feel like they can go to their parents then if this law passed what would happen to these girls? Would 'back alley abortions' go on? If so I think that would be far worse a situation.

You have to remember not everyone has a great relationship with their parents. A - It's not just their fault. If they don't have this type of relationship their parents are to blame as well so you can't blame that on the teen or punish them for that. This goes along with why they possibly got pg in the first place (lack of education, parental supervision, etc). B - Their parents could be abusive, what would happen to them if they had to tell their parents they were pg? C - This IS ultimately their life. They have to pay the price the rest of their life for getting pg, whether they give the baby up for adoption, get an abortion, or raise the child. As much as I want to 'parent' my child, I can't make that decision for them. That's not right IMO.

Like I said I have a world of views on this subject, but too much, I think, to put here. I do worry about the safety of some of these teens if this bill is passed.

luvmykids replied: I'll try to keep this short and the standard "I hope I don't offend anyone" disclaimer applies

I wholeheartedly agree with you Ed, I personally believe as long as a child is a minor it is absolutely 100% the parents right to know. Parents are held accountable and responsible for their children in every other area, the thought that something as big as an abortion is none of their business is laughable to me.

For me the issue of abortion itself is complicated. I am personally pro-life and do see the other side as far as it being someone elses "right" to disagree with that, but I still cannot justify the death of an innocent child who is a victim of circumstances beyond their control.



The problem I have with this is again, that a child who was conceived thanks to someone elses choices and actions is the one who dies. Yes, they have to pay the price the rest of their life, but if a teen wants to consider themselves grown up enough to have sex, they'd better consider themselves grown up to deal with the possible consequences.

I understand that then takes us back to the parenting side of the issue, which I can't say anything about because I haven't crossed that bridge yet. But that is exactly why I think it's a complicated issue and that it shouldn't be left to a teen alone to decide.

jcc64 replied: In a perfect world, all parents would be as loving and involved and supportive as a child in crisis would require. And in a perfect world, no children would be the victims of incest, or rape, or abusive parents. No children would be beaten for poor choices, no children would be living in abject poverty or neglect. And of course, in a perfect world, parents would understand that we as a species are imperfect and fallible, particularly during adolescence.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a black and white/ yes or no answer to this issue. Of course parents should be informed and involved in major life decisions facing their children. However, not every child enjoys the type of relationship with their parents that would support such candor. There are many many children who live in fear of their parents every day, and I'm not talking about normal- I don't want to get grounded kind of stuff. I'm referring to beatings and abuse, denial of sustenence, isolation, etc. It's far more common than anyone of us would like to believe. And I strongly believe there should be some sort of escape clause for such circumstances. I understand that abortion supporters view that as just another loophole to be exploited, but if you happen to be one of those children, it could mean the difference between life or death.
Ed, I really have to take issue with your assertion that the pro-choice camp has been able to whittle away the victories of the anti abortion camp. I see it exactly the opposite- the anti abortion people have made it their mission to deny access to abortion by any means necessary, and there have been countless court cases to address it. Like it or not, the right to seek an abortion is still a federally, constitionally guaranteed freedom, and yet, in many regions of the country it has been constrained to such a degree that it might as well be illegal. In the entire state of Mississippi, there is exactly 1 place to obtain an abortion. You might see that as a victory, I see it as a violation of the law as it was intended to be applied. From the conversations held on this board on the subject, it may appear that the vast majority of people in this country favor the reversal of Roe v Wade. That is simply not the case- in poll after poll most Americans favor safe access to abortion, with some reasonable restrictions- and unless and until the constitution is changed, we need to respect it as it now stands.
I hope and pray that everyone who hopes to see Roe overturned will acknowledge that all of these beloved and cherished fetuses cost alot of money to support once they're born, which is undoubtedly why many mothers are compelled to seek the procedure in the first place. Not always, but often enough that to me, it's an essential component of the debate. I personally believe that the revocation of Roe should be tied to a tax increase earmarked for the burden that will inevitably befall social services.
We can demand personal responsibility till the cows come home, but unwanted pgs will always happen, with or w/o legal abortion. It would be nice if the same compassion extended to the potential babies was also extended to the women who have to bear them.

coasterqueen replied:
Wow Jeanne, I love every word your wrote.

I'm a child of physical abuse and my life was threatened and I was beaten many a times. I feared my mother more than my father, but I feared him as well. I couldn't imagine people having to fear their parents worse than what i feared mine but I know there were people who did and to have to tell them "hey mom and dad I'm pg". Oh boy, it makes me cringe to imagine what would happen to those kids.

People do see this as a black and white situation. It's killing an unborn child. Never denied that, but what those people who see it that way forget, what is happening to the girls who this is happening to? Especially in situations of abuse, etc or those who try to give themselves an abortion. Do we just try to deny it might happen and not worry about their lives also?

What about those children who do tell their parents and are FORCED to have abortions because that's what their parents say they have to do? And that crap of you can't be forced into anything, you can leave, etc. It's easier to say unless you've been in that situation. I was kicked out of my house (for other reasons) at 16 and that's a scary thing, not even being pg. You have no idea how you are gong to take care of yourself. I can't imagine leaving my house being pg and having to figure out how to take care of myself.

Yes, we have to pay the consequences of our actions, but we all make mistakes, right? Just like if you get married, it should be for life, right? Well adults get married and divorced every day and we see it as ok. Why not those people stick it out and stay married. They chose to do so, they should stay in it, right? That's not a black and white situation either. We teach our children the wrong things every day and are so hypocritical about it. This is just another situation, IMO.

I fear I'm not making sense here, but oh well.

coasterqueen replied:

Again, there are consequences with a lot of things. Take marriage for instance. IF you choose to marry someone, you stay with them right. Divorce shouldn't be an option, right? I mean, you pay the consequence for choosing to tell God and everyone else that this is the person you are going to spend the rest of your life with..."til death do us part". But people get divorced every day? The excuse that people have to pay for their mistakes, grow up, well if we are going to say that then it should be used for every situation in our life, not just getting pg. Granted there is life involved here so there really is no comparison. The only link is that if we are going to teach our children to pay for their consequences responsibily we should do it with ALL situations.

mammag replied:
That just makes me feel like crying. First I hate the way pro abortion people use the term fetus as if it's not a living human baby. Does that take the guilt of murder away?

Second, do you know how many people are waiting in line to adopt a baby. There is no financial burden to the mother if she gives it up for adoption. Besides the fact that you can get free or low cost health care through the county when you are pregnant, in many instances people who want to adopt are willing to pay medical expenses in order to have that "fetus".

I just simply can't understand putting dollar signs on the value of a human life. There is no amount of hardship or financial woe that would justify killing a baby. No one is saying here that they have to keep the baby. If they suffer emotionally because they have to give it up then it's worth that baby getting a chance to live.

mammag replied:

Only problem with this argument is that divorce doesn't end a life. An innocent person is not dying for the mistake.

Would it be okay for a mother to kill an infant because she realized having it was a mistake? How is it different???

luvbug00 replied: I rufuse to say anyting about abortion itself. to me ANY medical prcedure needed by somone in my family under the age of 18 better have my permission before having it done. and all medical facilities should require it!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I agree!!! I really don't want to say anything more about the topic though. It's more or less a topic where we have to agree to disagree

coasterqueen replied:
That's why if you read my other reply I said there really isn't any comparison to the two ACCEPT that using the argument that one has to pay for their consequences is extremely hypocritcal to use unless you can say that for ALL situations, such as divorce, and many others.

I think for those who have quoted me and responded are getting way off of track from what I originally said. I basically said that we can't just look at the unborn childs life that is in question WHEN it comes to passing this law that parents should be informed we also have to think of all the persons involved, including the one who is pg. Those responding to me are turning this into a pro vs. anti abortion issue, and that's not what the discussion was. It was should a parent be informed and I was simply stating why I have issues with this law passing.

Thank you for your responses, though.

mammag replied: Just wanted to add another thought.....just my opinion, not scientific fact.

I highly believe that if an abortion required parental consent, there would be a decrease in teenage pregnancy and stds. Maybe if there wasn't such an easy out, they would think a little harder before they start getting it on.

Another thing that irks me. The term "pro-choice". I too am pro-choice. The only difference is, I think the choice needs to be made prior to having sex not when a child has to die for that choice. Now I know in case of rape you don't have the choice but in many cases, the choice being made is "do I want to go through 9months of pregnancy only to give it up", "I don't want anyone to know I got pregnant", "I don't want to have to change my lifestyle in any way to pay for my mistake". The time to make a choice is before you have sex....the choice to have it or not, to wear a condom or not....those are choices I can live with....not murder.

MyLuvBugs replied: WOW. Some interesting points are being brought up, and some are a bit more emotion driven than others, but that's great still!!

With that said, no one please take offense to what I'm going to say.

I'm pro choice. I'm PRO CHOICE not "pro abortion" as so many of you seem to be calling it. I personally would never get an abortion unless it was a life threatening condition that would kill me (ie. a tubal pregnancy). However, I don't feel that it's my right to tell another ADULT woman what she should or should not do with her own body. That's between her, her Dr, and God (or what ever she believes in).

As for a minor child, the line gets blurry. Like Karen said...it's not all black and white. As a parent that loves her children, Yes I want to know immediately if ANY medical procedure is to be done to anyone of them. And I would hope that my girls will know that I won't judge them if they get PG as a minor, b/c we ALL make mistakes and there are options out there. Adoption, Abortion, keeping the baby, etc.

However, someone mentioned that they can't stand people putting dollar signs on human life.....Unfortunately the world we live in is COVERED with dollar signs. Health insurance, dr. bills, food, clothes, etc. all have price tags. Even abortion and Adoption! yes there are tons of hungry parents yerning to adopt a baby. However, the red-tape and paperwork and COST for adopting a child in this country is Insane (from what friends have told me). I know several people that gave up on adopting in the US b/c it was too difficult. They all went to other countries like Russia, China, and Romania for their children, b/c it was cheaper and less paperwork. VERY sad if you ask me. If you have a loving set of parents that is willing and able to take care of a child, why make it hard for them? Again this is just based on experiences that friends have gone through.

Anyway...I digress....

redchief replied: I fully expected this topic to move into the abortion debate as a whole, though the legislation up for vote is very focused on parental notification and aquiescence. Jeanne, there are protections built into the bill for the removal of that parental right in cases of abuse and neglect. In cases where a minor states that her parents are neglectful or abusive, a state appointed counselor or an approved adult counselor will discuss the needs of the minor with her and the facility.

There is one counterpoint that hasn't been argued and is on the table. Jeanne stated that women have a constitutional right to abortion. Abortion is neither covered, nor do I believe our founding fathers intended that it be covered in the US Constitution. There is also no federal legislation protecting a woman's right to abortion. Roe vs. Wade was a judiciary decision made by the Texas Supreme Court and upheld in the US Supreme Court stating that a woman had a right to an abortion based upon the Constitution's right to privacy clause. A curious anecdote to all of this is that Jane Roe had her baby, and abandoned the pursuit of the case. The ACLU picked the case up after she abandoned it.

Most judiciaries today agree that the right to privacy only extends to that point at which no harm comes to another individual while in pursuit of that personal privacy. So that leaves the question of whether an unborn child qualifies as an individual. That is the basic argument, and why the pro-abortion camps have made such a point to dehumanize the life growing in the womb.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I totally agree.

jcc64 replied:

This depends largely on what kind of baby it is. Sad fact of reality, but reality nonetheless. I don't see too many people lining up to adopt minority crack or crystal meth babies, not to mention older or handicapped children languishing in foster care. If a junkie or alcoholic mother is forced agaisnt her will to carry a child to term, do you expect her to seek proper prenatal care or even take care of herself? What sort of chances do you expect that child to have for a good life?
I am not a gung-ho abortion supporter- I am fully cognizant of the fact that it is the tragic taking of a life. But I think to argue about semantics is to degenerate into predictable dogma- fetus is an appropriate term for a gestating baby- if you want to call it a baby, call it a baby- but let's not forget that a baby is an independent entity- capable of surviving independently, which a fetus is not. To me personally, the point at which a fetus, or baby, becomes capable of sustaining itself independent of its mother, is the point at which abortion becomes morally unacceptable, which I believe is approximately 25 wks.
My views on this are wholly dependent on the fact that not everyone's life or circumstances are identical to my own. Not everyone becomes pg because of carelessness. Our laws need to reflect and allow for the imperfections and frailties of being human. Being morally absolute and unyielding in principle may sound good in an argument, but sadly it doesn't often address the realities many people face.

ZandersMama replied: I totally think parental consent should be required! Thats as far into it as i am going, but if a child of mine wanted to make that kind of decision and live with it for the rest of their lives, I would like to know about it.

jcc64 replied:

Ed, I think we may have been posting simultaneously. I addressed this specifically in my post.
And I agree, btw, that the argument about when life begins, is a ridiculous one. Life begins at conception. However, as I previously stated, until that life can exist independently, I do believe the needs of the mother can and do supercede the baby's right to exist.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Thank you Ed for that insight about Roe v Wade, as I did not know the follow up to it.


I will take this a little further off topic, with this: I agree that the decision needs to be made prior to having interludes, however, that is not always the case. Too many raging hormones, a chance to be active leads to a point where many young girls feel it is too late to turn back. Or the ever popular "if you love me... " or for the girls who "think" they are in love, etc. Many reasons why our teens are so active with promiscuity, but the main thought that I have is, that premeditated thought does not occur with all of the teenagers.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: Yes, I believe a minor should be required to get consent from their parents before having an abortion.

DansMom replied: As far as choice goes, I agree with everything Jeanne has said (as usual). I don't have much to add. If the realities of poverty and addiction and abused children were not so prominent, if our society truly supported those who are already born and struggling, for example, I might feel differently.

That being said, if the law is crafted carefully, as Ed has pointed out, I would support the idea of requiring parental consent. I do also worry about those cases where a parent is using the law to push their minor child into HAVING an abortion---I've seen it, and it definitely happens that not all parents would support their child in the decision to carry to term, as Karen pointed out.

redchief replied:
Do they? If that were the case then there must be laws protecting the right of the poor to steal. There also must be laws protecting the people's right to become the crack, heroin and alcohol addicts that were elluded to earlier. Most laws are passed to benefit the majority. Focused laws are passed to protect the minority. I can think of no more silent minority than a child in a womb. As I said earlier, it is my opinion that the miracle of human life begins at conception. Further I believe that as parents and civilized adults, we are morally responsible for the protection of that growing life from conception through adulthood. As responsible parties, parents also must be informed of anything that will occur that impacts that life, as far as the law is able.

We also must take corrective action in those cases where the parental guardians of that life are unable to appropriately care for them. That includes public assistance, and medical assistance for those who can not afford appropriate care. At that point, though, I believe that when public funds are subsidizing such lives, the public has a right and responsibility to ensure that their money is being spent wisely and in the best interest of those being cared for.

Regarding whether or not society is responsible to care for those poor children that get sucked into the system through no fault of their own, I agree Jeanne, we have a responsibility to care for them too. In the cases of abuse or neglect, which in my opinion includes drug addiction on the part of the parents, it is the public's responsibility to care for those children, whether they have issues or not. Again, at that point where the public must pick up costs and responsibilities for childcare, the public also must have a say in the guardianship of those children, whether it be permanent or temporary.

I can't argue that some girls become pregnant by no fault of their own. I can argue that the life in her womb came to be through no fault of his/her own either, and is entitled to the same protection under the law.

Jackie012007 replied: all I can offer is my personal experience. I admit, when I found out I was pregnant, I was absolutely devistated. We were (are still) not married, I'm going into my senior year of college, we were barely making ends meet, and I'm thinking, now there is this BABY to worry about. I was forced to tell my parents like immediately after I found out, because my whole family thought I was going to have an tonsilectomy 2 days after I found out... I had no choice but to tell. DF ended up telling them because I was so ashamed and scared of what they would say, as I grew up having it pounded into my head that pregnancy while in college ruins your life, etc.

Well, my mom said something to me that will stick in my head forever. She said "Tell her we love her and tell her not to do anything stupid" (have an abortion). It had crossed my mind, I will tell you that, and I've always considered myself to be kind of pro-life... until I was living it. But every time I thought, "this sucks, I can't DO this" (especially after they took me off of my antidepressants and I went through 2 weeks of bad bad Detox)... I just thought of what my mom said. And here I am at 15 weeks 3 days!

My point is, my mom knowing saved my baby to a degree. And those who say a baby is too hard or too financialy draining... you make due with what you have! Being pregnant forced Carl and I to get our act together really quick... he has to work overnights and we aren't the biggest fans of it, but it got him a guaranteed 40+ hours, $13 an hour and insurance. We had to go on public assistance which I HATED the idea of, but we were only on it for a month before we found other ways... you just have to make sacrifices you didn't know you could before, because you were never forced to.

I say the parents should be notified, not only for medical reasons. I know all paretns aren't as understanding as mine, but you never know until you are put into that situation... then it is a whole different ballpark!

there's my on the issue at hand

ps: LOOK LISA, NO SWEARS!!!

coasterqueen replied:
This is easier to say as a student in college who has a loving relationship with their parents than someone who might have a horrible, volitile relationship with their parents and who are only 16 or 17 years old still in highschool . Not to mention your SO is around, and in some cases they might not be to financially help out.

Jackie012007 replied: well one thing is for sure, I did NOT have a very loving relationship with my parents before I got pregnant... grew up in a filthy disgusting house, was verbally (and physically in the peak of her problems) abused by my mother who had severe bi-polar disorder who wouldn't get help, and my dad just kinda faded into the background, then sent to live with my grandmother while my mom was committed for a while. College was my way out of the house and the crazinessI didn't mean to make it seem as if my situation were "ideal" because it is not... but yes, I am lucky to have DF.

gr33n3y3z replied:

jcc64 replied: I will only reitereate what Tracy said- I would be much more willing to entertain the "sanctity of life" argument if the compassion so readily lavished on the unborn was regularly extended to our disenfranchised brothers and sisters that are already on the planet. When I see substantial evidence to that end, and not just rhetoric, I will be more than happy to re-examine my belief that abortion is a necessary evil.

kimberley replied: i haven't read the other replies, so sorry if this is repetitive...

YES!!! most teens who become pg are terrified to tell anyone, let alone mom and dad and sometimes make rash decisions because they don't know that support could be available to them. if we don't trust them to vote, drink, drive in some places or sign contracts, how can we afford them the right to decide whether a child should be brought into the world or not?

however, i do believe there could be exceptions to this rule if the child comes from an abusive home or a prejudice one. a close friend of the family was forced to have an abortion by her parents (who subsequently sent her to China right afterwards for an arranged marriage ) because the father was african-american.

i think it could work if there was some kind of social services involvement that followed up.

luvmykids replied: I've edited this post about 80 times and can't get it quite right so I think I'm just going to leave it alone

redchief replied:
I totally agree that we do not adequately support orphans and special needs kids. The government can find money to build bridges to nowhere, stadiums and music halls for our entertainment and even finds money to study cow farts, but we can't properly take care of the children entrusted to us. That needs to change. Lack of funds to take care of them properly doesn't diminish their worth as human beings, however. Perhaps there would be less of an argument if we took better care of the kids that so desperately need it. I'm writing my Congressman.

jcc64 replied:

That would most certainly be the case with me, anyway. Do write, Ed, if anybody can persuade them to get off their big fat behinds, it would be you.