Seeing him at his worst

mysweetpeasWil&Wes wrote: I seriously think I saw Wil at his worst last night. I hate to use labels, but wow was he out of control. DH was out of town this weekend, so a GF of mine and I met at CPK last night for an early (5pm) dinner with our kids. Wil was great at first, coloring on his menu, sitting quietly...but then it started. He kept taking my friend's DD's crayons and throwing them on the floor, then pinching her arm, then grabbing her water. Then he would sit under the table, then he hit me in the face. There was one point where he escaped the booth and ran upto the people at the next table and GROWLED at them..seriously. Then as we were packing up to leave, he took off in the restaurant. We got to the parking lot...and it got worse. I put him in time-out on the curb until he decided to hold my hand, but he broke free and ran almost straight into traffic...luckily I grabbed him by the collar in time! I seriously started crying in front of my friend. I was so embarassed. He doesn't listen at all and I'm seriously afraid for his life.

Oh he also gave Wesley a fat lip earlier in the day. Made it bleed. He is just so MEAN. He is always growling at kids on the playground or hitting or pushing. I'm at a loss you guys. My friend has a six year old and a 6 month old, so she gave me some advice at dinner...but without sounding like I'm making excuses or getting defensive, I don't have time to read Love & Logic books and I think its easier said than done when your kids are several years apart. Wil and Wesley are BOTH still babies...I'm still juggling double diapers - who has time to pickup a book let alone wash my own hair!!!!! I'm having the hardest time lately. I don't know how people with twins do it.

Last night really was a wake up call for me though. I somehow thought Wil's behavior would just sorta "work its way out on its own", or that it was just the age, but I've learned that I need to step up more and set more boundaries for him. But how do you set boundaries or make privilage charts (like my friend suggested) when your kid doesn't listen? He is not even three.

I'm open to suggestions.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

I struggled with this same thing last summer. It was very challenging. You have to be consistent. The only thing that really worked for us was taking something away that he loved and restraining him (in time out in his room or something like that...not actually tying him up )

Ethan thought he was real cute when he was mean. He would hit or bite then smile real coyly...that made it hard to be mad at him, but he needed to learn it was not appropriate. And if your DH is ever around when Wil hits you, he needs to make a huge deal out of it and say "We never hit mommy", etc. That way he has that male influence of what is right and what is wrong. I hope that makes sense. But you guys are in this together and it needs to be a joint effort. I'm not sure how active your DH is in helping discipline, but up until last summer, it was all me...then I had a breakdown b/c Ethan was out of control and Scotty started helping more.

Ethan has never been one to run away from me, but the screaming, strong willed attitude has always been there. And the hurting other kids, but like I said....he always did it with a smile on his face. I still don't get that one.

You gotta get him where it hurts. That was my biggest challenge. Seriously. I felt as though Ethan didn't understand (but he did) and I felt like he wasn't hearing me (but he was) and I didn't know what in the world to take from him or do to him that would bother him the most. Eventually time outs started working and then I would take his blanket away from him. Finally I realized he needed reasoning. I had to get down in his face and reason with him. This was difficult for me b/c I'm really not a talker IRL. I hate having to explain things...I want to say it and be done with it....but, I had to get down in Ethan's face and talk til I turned blue. And the little stinker wouldn't look me in the eye b/c that's the only thing I can't control....where he looks.

Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you tell him "If you do x...I will take away z"...then follow thru with your punishment. Don't threaten if you don't plan on following thru. Don't feel defeated, take control, let him know who is boss. If Ethan acts up in a restaurant, I take him to the bathroom and let him stand in a corner there (as disgusting as it is) and I explain to him that his behavior is unacceptable and when he has calmed down we go back in and sit down. You may have to repeat yourself over and over and over and you may have to do this a million times before he catches on to the fact that you will not stand for it. And it's hard to take that time when there's so little time in the day (especially with another child in the house), but it works and it will pay off.

It's a battle of the wills...stick it out. You will win and you will have a well rounded, well behaved, polite little man on your hands soon.

luvmykids replied: First off, lots of for you. I don't have much advice off the top of my head but I know in our house I've gone through periods where I let a lot of boundaries slide because I was tired and overwhelmed and it was just easier to let some things go, which only made it harder to regain order. I don't know if thats the case with you, but what I had to do was basically start over with rules and discipline. I'd been guilty of not being consistent and not actually doing the things I "threatened" and then wondered why they didn't listen.

I'm sure some of his actions are related to a new sibling too, I don't mean to imply that you're parenting him wrong or doing something to cause his behavior, I just know in our case a lot of their terrible behavior went too far because I didn't nip it in the bud. People would say "You MAKE them listen" and I would just cry because I couldn't.

I'm sorry I don't have better advice, if I think of something I'll come back. Hang in there, it's rough with a baby and a toddler and you're doing your best And if its any consolation, the twins were TERRIBLE at three. It was by far the roughest period for me, I think in many cases three years old is so much worse than two

kimberley replied: i'm sorry you are having a hard time with Wil. as normal as it is for a 3yo to test their boundaries, we still have to set limits and make sure there isn't another reason he/she is acting out. Jade's behavior when dh was gone was atrocious, but expected. we are still trying to teach her what is appropriate and what is not.

the key is consistency. with you, grandma, dad, whoever... the punishment must be the same when he acts out. when the boys were small i had a similar dining experience and just paid my part of the bill, picked up the kids and left. they were told firmly why their behavior was wrong and put in time out. i didn't overreact or give attention to their misbehavings or they'd do it more. eventually.. they get it.

i suspect Wil's behavior has a bit to do with the attention his brother gets, as much as it is his age. try to make some individual time for him. i used to take Jacob on "dates" once a week. we'd go have burgers and shakes and just spend time together. it made the world of difference at the time.

good luck hon. hang in there. it WILL get better.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: Oh gosh, thanks so much ladies. I'm crying reading all the great advice...Just hearing that I'm not alone is HUGE. I relate to a lot of what you wrote Aimee. That I'm not a talker as it is and I'm never good w/confrontation, so getting down to his level is really hard for me. Especially in public, in front of my friend (who seems to really be the "perfect" mom). I just want to say it and be done with it, just like you said. I keep reminding myself "okay Rae, you knew having kids wasn't going to be easy, suck it up!"...but man, he really broke me down last night. DH and I are typically on the same page with disciplining the kids, although DH is the softy...but I have to admit, DH isn't around as much to really enforce it. So yes, its primarily ALL me. Its exhausting. I really have no idea how single parents do it.

Aimee, my friend last night said the same thing, that kids at two CAN really understand what you're saying. I didn't really buy it, because Wil is like Ethan and just smiles or laughs at me. But I think in order for me to expect him to act "older", I need to treat him like he is. So I'm not saying to talk to him like an adult, but she told me to make choices. Say "you can either do A or B", plus to tell him why his behavior is innapropriate. I am lucky Wil stays in TO, but yeah, the hitting and growling just really gets me. Poor Wesley has numerous bruises and scratches at only 11 months...poor baby.

I'll have to think of what I can take away from Wil. He's not really attached to anything yet...hmmm...well maybe his DVDs. He loves to watch movies.

Oh and about the following through, totally guilty for NOT doing that. I do a lot of bribing..."if you get in your seat, I will give you a treat when we get home." Is that a bad idea? Or is it whatever works, do it!?

MyBrownEyedBoy replied: Rae, I've been sitting on this one for a bit. Logan will not do time out in "normal" places. I used to sit him on a kitchen chair and he'd have to sit there until the microwave timer went off. I don't care if he screams through the whole time, but he WILL sit there. At least that's what is expected of him. Recently however, he started laughing through time out. And the other day, I told him, "Logan, you can stop spitting (that's the latest at our house, NASTY) or you can go to time out." Used to be just the threat of TO was enough. Not anymore, he looked at me and said, "Okay" and went and sat in the chair. OMG, I was angry, but it was also funny. So, now timeouts are in his crib where there are no toys and mom isn't there to keep him put. That seems to be working for now.
I agree with the choices. If you do A, then I will do B. Also, try to give him choices throughout the day. Do you want to color or do you want to play cars? Do you want red juice or yellow? I've found with Logan that he has much fewer tantrums when I allow him some autonomy. He gets to choose which shirt he wears, I get to choose it's time to pick up. Good luck. Disciplining a nearly 3 year old is rough.

Miranda1127 replied:
i totally agree consistency is the key. Liesy has always been difficult (for everyone -but me) Daddy has a hard tie controlling her and at Mom-mom's she runs wild. i have insisted on the "same rules/punishments apply" and we have seen a complete change. good luck and best wishes

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

Yep, same here. And it is exhausting. Like I said, I don't like to talk much and I really get tired of hearing my own voice. By the end of the day I'm just b/c I've repeated myself so many times. Then it all starts over the next day.

A lot of times I would give in to him to avoid a scene in public. Because you know how that goes. They want a sucker and you say "No, you can't have a sucker" and they break down screaming. All you want to do in that moment is join them. So you give them the sucker/toy/etc. Anyway, giving in is the wrong thing to do. Stand your ground and say "You can sit down in your chair/shopping cart and be a good boy, or we can go to the bathroom and stand in a corner until you decide you can behave like a big boy." That's giving him choices. And like Kelly suggested, give him choices throughout the day, too. Kids NEED boundaries. They really want discipline. He's actually begging you to set some boundaries for him. It's just so hard on us moms when we are already stressed out. Sometimes in the heat of the moment we don't know how to react or what exactly to do.

I've certainly had my moments of weakness. I'm telling you all this from experience. Last summer was a nightmare and he's got his days when he wants to test me. It's so trying. School has helped him tremendously. That's where he learned to use his words. Now instead of acting out he will say "You made me sad"..or "I'm not very happy." It's been a long time since he's bitten or hit out of frustration. If you can get Wil to say what he's feeling that might help.

And on another note...when we take away things they love to do, like watching movies...it only punishes us as well. It's just not easy being a parent.

moped replied: I too have been thinking about this post for a bit and haven't had a chance to read everyone's replies..........I am still processing and trying to figure out how to type it out.

More to follow........

moped replied: A few questions while i think:

What is your current form of discipline? at home and out at playdates?
Who do you think is the boss - you or him?
Does DH discipline?
Does DH spend a lot of time with him?
Do you use empty threats?
Does he still nap?
Sleep good at night?
Do you feel you spend equal time with both boys?

Boo&BugsMom replied: Great advice already. The only thing I have to add is I know with Tanner, his punishments need to be severe in order for it to stick into his head. For example...he has this habit lately of throwing things around in his room. Not out of anger, but he'll toss things up in the air and try to catch them. He has hit the ceiling fan in his room several times with toys. I told him tonight if I catch him throwing things or something hits his fan he will go straight to bed. Well, what happens? He starts throwing things in the air and ends up breaking one of the chains off of his fan. It was at least an hour and a half before bedtime, BUT, I knew I had to stick to what I said so...in bed he was at 6:45pm. He didn't fall asleep, but it was more than just a "slap across the wrist" and it is now 9pm and he is still laying in bed and not sleeping. He also got his tv and computer priveledge taken away from him tomorrow. Time outs only do so much and they only work for a short amount of time until they think it's not a big deal to just sit there for 4-5 minutes. A lot of times you need to take fun things away in order for them to get it. And time outs in our house are a good half hour or more. And yes he still knows what he did wrong after that long. Phooey on the person who started getting people to think that kids don't remember after a period of time. They sure do remember, even if you need to replay the incident for them. Good luck.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I used to say whatever worked... but that was when I was babysitting. A child, even a 2 year old, understands enough that "gee - when I act up, mommy bribes me and will give me a treat if I stop after a while." Trust me. That's why you will often see parents in a store, exasperated with their children, who are screaming, throwing tantrums, and the paretns exclaim "oh if you just STOP, I will buy you a toy!!". Kids "get" that... why do you think they KEEP throwing the tantrums? They want more toys! And of course they are master manipulators... they are learning how the world works. They get a "bigger" punishment when they do bigger "crimes", so they figure, child logic, bigger tantrum = bigger treat when they get the bribe.

Since those years past, I've come to realize that most kids are wayyy smarter than anyone usually gives them credit for. A 2 year old DOES understand. He really does. He will "get it" when you are consistent a few times. The first few times will be heart-wrenching... but after a few times, they get that if they hit, scream, bite etc, they get their blankie, night light, bedtime music etc taken away.

I've never ever talked to my children like they were too little to understand. At 20 months, Naomie understands the concept of if you do X, this happens.

Trust me Rae... bribing is NOT the way to go. Your smart little man is CONNING you!!

Tell him, you need to get into your seat, that's it that's all. Yes, he will scream... and throw tantrums and kick bite scratch whatever... and it will get worse before it gets better... because he's used to performing a certain time before you kick in with the offer of a treat... and so since that's not working anymore, he will push harder and further than he ever has, to see if your limit has just been pushed back. Expect a few days to a few weeks of utter hell. But then, once he "gets" that you are not budging, and what you say "goes", he will back off and accept it.

Try giving him more choices, such as "red shirt or blue shirt?" or, do you want to sit in this chair, or that chair? etc etc... stuff that you can still control overall, but that he gets to make the "big boy decision" on. KWIM?

Most parents do understand though...

Boo&BugsMom replied:
ITA! Great post Rocky. NEVER bribe or reward bad behavior, which is what that is.

If Tanner starts acting up, I give him a consequence...never a bribe, that way he knows if he isn't well behaved there will be "you know what" to pay. If he is good, he gets tons of praise. Every once in awhile he will get rewarded with a treat or something special, but it is never bribed and it is rare so it is not expected.

luvmykids replied: Rae,you are far, far from alone. I'm basically a single parent during the week and I hate that I have no backup. It's exhausting and overwhelming and terrifying

I saw this on Dr Phil once and it took me awhile to work up the courage, but once when the twins were having a tantrum over me not buying marshmallows I actually left my full cart and took them out of the store kicking and screaming. I buckled them in and drove them straight home. Yes, it was a giant PITA but you know what, they've never done it again. Sometimes we have to endure the inconvenience of whatever needs to be done to set things straight. All the threats in the world didn't do nearly as much good as me saying "That's it, we're leaving because you're CHOOSING bad behavior."

It's not easy but most of us have been there

CantWait replied: I've been there, tears and all and wondered what I was doing wrong.
They grow out of it, Anthony, only a about 5 or 6 weeks from being 4 I noticed has been really good the last couple weeks. Not getting into things and destroying things, not being as mouthy etc....
It's just age and consistency.

kit_kats_mom replied:
Instead of "if-then" try "when-then". That's a magic phrase in our house. "when you pick up your toys, then we can watch a show" "when you finish your veggies, then we can go for a walk". For some reason, that works almost every time.

Instead of giving them the option of weather or not to do the task set before them, you are giving them the choice of how quickly to do it instead. It's like telling them that not doing it is not an option KWIM? When I started doing that, it made a huge difference.

And yes, 3 yo is way more difficult IMO than 2.

I'm really sorry that you are having such a hard time. I always tell new mom's of two (who I'm close with) that the first year or so after the second is born is really difficult. Oh, and your friend who seems perfect? I guarantee you she is not. I have a few IRL friends who always make comments suggesting that I'm a perfect mom. I point them to my blog and the days like when I took K to school buck nekkid because I was just too tired to fight her and and I was also having a fit of immaturity that day. LOL I try really hard to do my best and be creative with my kids but I am far from perfect and so is she. It always makes me feel bad for them even thinking that. It's like they are comparing themselves to me or something when in all actuallity, we just do things differently and our kids are different. Don't be hard on yourself.

kit_kats_mom replied: A couple more things that seem to work in our house. A sticker chart/magnet chart. Lauren LOVES this and we get great results. The girls each have their personal goals each day
K-eating at least one whole meal, clear the table after meals & taking a nap
L-no hitting, nap and use the potty.
then they both have shared goals:
sharing, picking up toys, being good helpers, no whining, brushing teeth, going to bed well etc.

At the end of the day we have our "magnet ceremony" and at the end of each week we tabulate how many magnets each kid gets. The rewards range from a trip to the park or library to a busch gardens trip to one on one time with mom or dad to money and a visit to the dollar store.

I will occasionally take magnets away for really bad behavior but only after a warning.

And I will re-state the one on one time. Katherine's behavior really changed for the better when I started spening a half hour every night playing with just her while Dad watched Lauren.

lovemy2 replied: I am 100% with all these other posts - giving choices so they feel they have some say in what happens, consequences when they don't do what is expected of them and FOLLOW THROUGH is soooo key - I have learned that over and over through mistakes with Olivia - it is sooo easy to bribe or make those empty threats and soooo hard to give choices and let them know what happens when they don't do what is expected...the tantrums and screaming and crying...its awful...I am single mom on the weekends during the day - it is hard but I am learning to deal and getting much tougher on Olivia now that she is almost 5 - mostly because like you I thought at 3 she didn't really know better but little did I know she knew ALOT more than I thought at that age and I am paying the price now for letting her slide.....while she is now able to reason and process things much better at 3 she still knew right from wrong - maybe not the whys of it all but she knew and I acted like she was too little to understand when she didn't necessarily need to "understand" so to speak but just know that what I said goes.....

Hang in there - it gets better....

The only other advice that I have too which I have also learned with Olivia lately is that her diet and how much sleep she does or doesn't get makes a HUGE difference in her behavior....

MommyToAshley replied: I agree with the other posts. In fact, DH and I were just talking last night that we need to do some of these very same things. Ashley was always pretty good, but age 4 has been a tough age for us. She is testing us in a big way right now, and unfortunately I think we've let her get away with too much because she had been good in the past. I see a big change in her behavior and we need to toughen up and be more consistent.

kit_kats_mom replied: One more thing I just thought of. Make fun sounding rules that are easy to remember. In our house, anytime someone hits, the other child will say "if you hit, you must sit" and the perp heads off to put themselves in the naughty spot. I know it's reminicent of OJ but it really works. It's easy to remember and the kids know the repercussions of hitting.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Cary can you raise my kids for me? You are such a fun mom!!!! I need to talk to you daily to get motivation. You're so organized.

luvmykids replied:
We have one of those too, "You get what you get, and don't have a fit" because they were always fighting over who had a millimeter more of milk, or that we had strawberry ice cream and they wanted chocolate, or I rented the wrong movie, etc.

kit_kats_mom replied:
ooooh. I'm SO borrowing that one. The "I want whatever the other has's" are driving me BERZERK.

moped replied:
That is funny, but on a serious note: Does that stop the hitting forever, or just for the time being??? Just curious!

kit_kats_mom replied:
I hear the refrain about once every other day now. Lauren is bad about hitting but she's gotten much better. Now, she's usually provoked by Katherine, who can be a real twit to her baby sister. When we first started the rule, I swear she was in the naughty spot at least once an hour and that was a good day. She also has hit Woody and myself during her tantrums and that just doesn't cut it. That's completely stopped.

tammyhopkins replied: Hello everyone my sister Jen said to sign in and add a reply because I have and will always have a very strong willed child.

My son Joshua started hitting and pushing and having problems when he was about a year. It got to the point where i did not go anywhere where theere were other children becaus eit was tooo stressful. I would ask everyone i knew for advise but after getting it realized these people have never had a child that was what i thought of as a BULLY (hate to label but at the time that is what i thought he was). i would tak what they said and disregard because regular time out does not work with these children. Josh would not sit in time out and that is great if you have time to take a chikd back to time out for 2 hours to get him to stay but that is ridiculous not everyone has that kinda time to do this. Josh would Pinch, Hit , grab faces, throw toys and this went on for 2 years and we still struggle some days but it is better.

What we did was when he hit or pinched or grabbed someones face he DID NOT get a warning because that is physical harm and does not get a warning. We picked him up and had his face facing oppisite to yours and put him in time out. Where is time out there are 2 places in our house for time out. 1) i have a booster seat with a belt that he will sit in for 3 minutes buckled in of course or we place him in the bathroom and when 3 minutes is up go ove ropen the door and wakl away if he comes out fine if not then he willl eventually.

Know when we are out or he is at daycare and he has a bad day that he is hitting and grabbing then he gets a toy taken away and the only way he gets it back is to be GOOD all day. I have no word of a lie taken almost all his toys before he realized that being good gets him what he wants.

I must say it takes consistency and if you let it go once you will start at step one i did that and it was not worth it. I will tell you though Josh now is 3 and half and has many more good days than bad and i do not sit at home crying because i think he is going to be a bully when he gets older anymore. I have a lovable little guy now and consistency is the key.

Well i hope i have helped because i know when Josh was doing htat i wanted to crawl in a hole and die and noone seemed to know how to deal with a child like this. Well i am not an expert at all but i have dealt with the stubborn and persistent so i wish you luck and they do get better.

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: THANK YOU to everyone for all the long detailed responses. I'm trying to read through them all and respond, but its been one of those days. I actually had a few minutes to get on, because believe it or not, BOTH boys are currently napping...but I'm not going to take up all my precious time on here. Sorry. I'll get back to you...Going to go get some much needed cleaning done while I can. Again, thanks for all the GREAT advice and fun laughs! Cary you crack me up...OJ! I'm going to use that one. And Jen's sis, thanks for pointing out that some kids are just very strong willed. Luckily Wil does stay in TO, but I have yet to figure out the hitting, biting and pushing other kids. It really does make me want to curl up in a hole for sure.

BTW, DH and I are going to work on a "house rules" list tonight. I have also started giving Wil choices today and I have already seen a HUGE improvement. Thanks, thanks and more thanks.