Pushing my luck here - stirred up enough controversy for today

cameragirl21 wrote: Once again, I hope this topic does not offend or upset anyone or stir up unwanted bad memories. If it does, I apologize in advance.
Anyway, I am disturbed and alarmed at how many of you have "angels in heaven."
I realize some of these are miscarriages but what I gather from some of the conversations here is that some of you lost more than a miscarriage.
If you don't mind my asking, what happened to your babies?
I know this is a sad topic and I really don't mean to be nosy or upset anyone, I am just in shock at how many people lost a baby and I asked a friend of mine in the medical profession and she insists they are all (or nearly all) references to miscarriages.
Is she right?
If this upsets anyone I will remove this thread or undo it (if I can undo it) right away.
Thanks,
Jennifer

redchief replied: Jennifer, we pride ourselves here on being tolerant of others' opinions. That being said, this could indeed be a very emotional topic. I have not faced such a loss, so I can't inject an opinion here that wouldn't seem analytical and cold, so I shall leave the answers to those best able to.

I only ask everyone this; please don't judge others by their responses, even if there is disagreement. Everyone has their faith and treading on that with regards to such an emotional topic could be devestating.

ETA: Some have experienced the loss of a child after birth, and others have experienced loss invitro. All of these losses are real and heartwrenching.

luvbug00 replied: I personaly don't have angel icons even though i suffered misscarrages. I used to and it helped with the healing prosses and just lets our children know here or not we are thinking of them.

MyLuvBugs replied: I think most on here that have the angels are "healing" from the lost of a child during a miscarriage just like Nadia said above. I personally have not lost a child, but my mother had 7 miscarriages before she got PG with me. She's almost 60 years old and still mourns the losses somedays.

There's really nothing to be in shock about though. Miscarriages happen a lot. And even in our modern society babies even die during and after birth. It's very sad to hear and hard to imagine how one would feel loosing a child. Even if that child is still in utero and only 8 wks developed. You still have those hormones and the attachment to said child.

Everyone deals with it differently and heals in their own ways. The angels section of this site and some of the blinkies and stuff you see are just a way of helping those moms and dads heal. It really does help to talk things out with others....

Hope that makes sense.

Bamamom replied: I've wondered the same thing Jennifer but never worked up the courage to ask. I've also never lost a child but my mom had several miscarriages trying to have me and she still gets sad at those times of the year - and this was more than 30 years ago.

My heart goes out to all of you who have lost children - whether during pregnancy or after the child was born.

ashtonsmama replied: I think that the words you used when asking the question ("disturbed and alarmed") may bring up some defensive statements from moms who have lost babies or children of any age, but I can see why you'd be curious. Some of them, most of them actually, have shared their stories at one time or another, and many are posted in the Precious Angels forum if you're curious.

mummy2girls replied:
first of.. and im sure you didnt mean it as it came out but the disturbed and alarmed is not how i would put it. I personally have been through losses. Jordan was an infant and joshua still birth. To me they were my angels and they will always be a big part of my life. If i had to go through the pain all over again to be with my kids i would because i would give anything to hold them right now. just go to precious angels and there is a pinned topic and some of us shared our stories...

cameragirl21 replied: what I meant by disturbed and alarmed is that I did not think that losing babies here in the US or any first world country was very common and seeing how many people here have angels in heaven leaves me disturbed and alarmed to see it may be more common than I thought. If so many people have lost babies after birth then this is in fact, disturbing and alarming to me.
If this offended or upset anyone or made anyone defensive then I'm sorry.
Where do I find the precious angels thread?
Thanks,
Jennifer

luvmykids replied:
I think you meant that it is shocking to see how common it is, is that more like it? I too had no idea how many women have suffered such loss, before, during or after birth.

I highly recommend reading the Precious Angels posts, I have never experienced that kind of loss either and I can't imagine but I did take a few things away after reading some of the stories there.

luvmykids replied: Precious Angels

Just click that link.

mummy2girls replied:
go to the main page where all the forums are and scroll down till you see precious angels.. its a forum designated for this topic

cameragirl21 replied: thanks, JennasMommy, sorry I don't know your name.
Jennifer

cameragirl21 replied: and thanks, luvmykids for the link. I will check it out now. And yeah, I meant that I was shocked at how common it is, especially here in the USA.
Take care,
Jennifer

ashtonsmama replied:
I figured those words might bring up some unpleasant feelings for people.

ashtonsmama replied:
I figured so. No problem hun.

I know it's a sensitive subject for everyone...

mom2my2cuties replied:
With all due respect to your friend (and I don't mean this offensively at all)- It doesn't sound like she knows to much about what she is speaking of. While loosing a child due to a miscarriage is horrible and heartbreaking and devestating. By saying that "Most if not all the children are lost due to Miscarriage" Is absolutely wrong.

There are so many diseases, so many causes of death, and while a lot of children are lost to miscarriage. In all honesty, more are lost to childhood disease and accident than miscarriage. And when you get a group of parents together this size, you are bound to have more than your share of miscarriages, but also more than your share of childhood/infant death as well.

Again, I don't mean this offensively, but your friends statement is truly unfair to the familes who have lost children no matter what the cause. Saying in the manner she did practically dismisses the loss of a child through miscarriage. And maybe I feel this way because I recently suffered a very devestating miscarriage, but it almost sounded dismissive.

mummy2girls replied:
i agree! i felt upset by that statement ..more so because it came from a medical professional... yes there are alot of miscarriages and i feel those are one of the horrible losses you try to endure.. the loss of the unknown and other things. but there are infant losses and anya ge losses. im in canada and i dont know how many times i have opened a newspaper to read a child passed away to some sort of illness..

cameragirl21 replied: well, I'm sorry I brought my friend into it and I'm sorry she made ignorant statements that I in turn repeated and upset some of you. She really hates being a doctor so maybe that's the issue.
But she really is a good person otherwise.
Jennifer

mummy2girls replied:
im sorry if it came upon as i think she is ignorant. I was just upset that she thought all losses is from misscarriage.. im just saying that there are losses in newborns and such. Im sorry she hates being a doctor:( we were just trying to state that there are many diff kinds of losses. yes a big majority of parents on here that went through a loss was miscarriage but there are a few of us that lost misscarriage and other kinds of losses...just like someone else stated this is a very touchy subject.. so just know that many will be offended but many wont.. it just depends...

kit_kats_mom replied: One other thing to keep in mind is that since many people are TTC these days, and pregnancy can be detected quite early, mom's are realizing they are having mc's rather than just heavy and slightly late periods. When you are not actively TTC or you have erratic cycles, an early mc would be easy to miss.

toady_buckshot_noodle replied: It will be 5 years on 9/1 since I delivered Jonah. He was at 5 months gestation. A lot of people still make comments such as "everything happens for a reason" or "something must have been wrong" or "at least you didn't get to know him before you lost him". Some people have even said "If you hadn't have lost him then you wouldn't have AnaBeth" (I got preg. with her 3 months later). People who haven't been through it just don't understand.

It still hurts. I think of him everyday and I want everyone to know about him . I tell people I have 4 kids, 3 with me, 1 waiting in heaven.

moped replied:
That is a good point Cary!

coasterqueen replied:
I agree with Cary on this.

Cameragirl, you may be shocked for the very same reason I am when I hear so much about miscarriages and that's because they are WAY TOO common these days. And for those that have miscarried, please don't take my last remark as offensive because I know my choice of words aren't intentional and aren't the best words, I'm just not sure how to say what I mean. Like Cary said because we have the medical technology to test so early these days we know about pgs early. It's good and it's bad. I sometimes think that this technology to find out early is bad because mother nature takes it's course and if we are intended to miscarry we are and well sometimes it's best to not know, at least it would be for me.

They say that ALL women will miscarry a few times in their life and will never know it. So honestly we've all probably miscarried in our life at least once OR will, we don't know about it, therefore we don't mourn. We didn't know about it because we weren't planning or testing. Those tests IMO are the culprit to so many women's pain....at least to the extremely early miscarriages. They have no part in those who miscarry late in the 1st trimester, etc.

Again, I beg those here not to take what I said as offensive. I think people get taken back by so many miscarriages because it is happening so much. To me I wonder why it's happening so much. Is it because of the testing technology we have these days or is it more? Is it the chemicals put in our foods and drinking sources? What?

to all.

My2Beauties replied: I recently had a m/c a few months back. It is indeed painful and I only known of my PG for two days before it happened. I don't have anything in my siggy or anything but it does bother me and I was very upset when it happened. I was only 6 weeks along.

BAC'sMom replied: First I totally can’t believe that a newbie would even ask such a question. Second can you not have some sorta tack about asking people their personal business when it comes to the loss of a child? Then to throw around words like disturbed and alarmed, do not offend, upset anyone, and stir up unwanted bad memories. You were warned that by bringing up a very emotional topic like this that you might bring up some unpleasant feelings from people. Well Honey that is exactly what you have done.

There are parents here at PC who has loss children to miscarriage they have lost infants, toddlers, young children and even teens and pre-teenagers. A passing of a child regardless of the age is devastating. When it comes to the subject of miscarriage, which is what I choose to talk about since I have had one. Until you have walked a mile in my shoes or any other women who has suffered a miscarriage, you will never know how it feels. It doesn’t matter if you are 3 weeks, 3 months or full term. Those pregnancies were our children, the reason why we sometimes mourn is because not only did we lose our unborn child but we also lost our hopes and dreams for that child too. No matter how much time goes by I still remember June 13th and January 9th of each and every year day. One date is the day I started miscarrying the other my due date. Sure I have gone on to have other children but I WILL always remember my first pregnancy and the child I lost on June 13th 1995!

And here is some miscarriage etiquette for those of you who have never had a miscarriage.

Please don’t say things like…


"Everything happens for a reason"
“It was god’s will”
“Your young you can have more children”
"Something must have been wrong"
“At least you never got to feel it move”
ETC.
Or my all time favorite
“Hey Jimmie do remember when you were PG…. well I am NOW!”

It hurts feelings! Just simply say I am sorry for your loss because that is what it is A LOSS.

coasterqueen replied: BACMom, I don't think she was saying it wasn't a loss. People who have not experience before have a right to be curious and even though she is a newbie I don't think she's trying to be insensitive. We are all curious about a lot of things and sometimes we ask and sometimes we aren't sure HOW to ask it. I don't think being a newbie means she can't ask questions. We post our personal business on this board all the time for everyone, not just members, but for guests who come to visit this board all the time. You make it sound as if because she's new she may not know you, but she could have been a lurker for years and read every post you've ever written or commented on.

I honestly don't think ANYONE who wonders about this subject is trying to be insensitive. Yes, it's a hard subject to talk about and it's hard to be tasteful in our words, thoughts and questions, but it doesn't mean anyone is trying to be insensitive.

She also was stating that HER friend said this and it got her thinking about the subject. She was not saying it was herself saying these things.

I am sorry for your losses and I'm sorry if anything I said above was offensive. It wasn't my intention and I truly believe it was the OP intention either.

ashtonsmama replied:
I agree with both of you.
Jennifer, I think you knew it would be an emotional topic, and you chose to open it up anyways...so that's your choice. Maybe a better choice of words next time might make people feel less defensive. It's a loss, no matter when it happens, and I understand you were just curious. Maybe next time PM a member if you'd like to talk to them about something like this. JMO.

coasterqueen replied:
Well that would defeat the general pupose of learning more about a subject. More times than not you learn more from a group than just a single individual .

cameragirl21 replied: Thank you for helping me out, Coasterqueen, I wasn't really sure how to respond to BACmom so I didn't.
I wasn't trying to be insensitive, I just feel sad that this is more common than I thought and wondered if people would want to share their stories.
I never insisted that anyone had to or anything like that.
Thanks again,
Jennifer
And again, I'm sorry if I offended or upset anyone, it certainly wasn't my intention.

cameragirl21 replied: Ashtonsmama, I actually did PM a member first because her situation seemed rather extraordinary from what I gathered from her signature and we email back and forth and I told her of my desire to ask this of the board but that I was unsure if it would be poorly received since I am new and she was the one who encouraged me to ask the board saying that people who lost a child usually like talking about that child.
I thought about this for several weeks after emailing back and forth with that other member before asking so it's not as if I just did this impulsively.
I'm really sorry I seem to have upset so many people here.
Jennifer

5littleladies replied: I think this is getting blown out of proportion. I had a miscarriage 2 years ago, yes it still hurts, and yes I still think about it, but I don't think the original poster was trying to be insensitive to my (or anyone else's) loss. When I had my m/c I was shocked to find that nearly every woman I talked to had also had one too-A fact I would not have been acquainted with had I not lost my baby. I can totally understand someone coming to this board, seeing all the angels in people's signatures and wondering why there are so many. And I don't blame her for asking about it. Miscarriage is a fact of life and there are many people out there that just aren't aware of how common it is. I don't think she did anything wrong. JMO

Bamamom replied:
Wow - way to alienate that newbie. I think she was trying her best to be tactful. She prefaced her comments by saying that she meant no offense to anyone - what more can she do. Since then she has apologized for the words "disturbed and alarmed." If you are uncomforable discussing the topic she approached you could always ignore it or pm her and say that you were hurt by her comments - no need to lash her like this in public.

Sorry - just my opinion.

Let the lashing of me begin

moped replied:
I think you said it perfectly Jennifer

coasterqueen replied: Ok, everyone lets all try to remain calm and get along in this thread. I don't want to close this thread because I think people genuinely want to hear and learn from this. Yes, going to the Precious Angel forum is a good place to do that as well.

Lets all just

cameragirl21 replied: Bamamom and 4littleladies, thanks so much for sticking up for me, I am literally in tears, I don't understand the etiquette of this board at all. I don't know what topics are off limits or anything.
I'm sorry for everyone's loss, I wish I could bring all of your babies back, I wish there was something I could do, I'm sorry I brought this whole thing up in the first place.
Jennifer

mom2my2cuties replied:
I can't help but wholeheartedly agree. Jennifer obviously didn't mean to be harsh or hurtful, she was simply asking a question.

As to the reference to her being a "newbie" and doing so. What does that matter? She was curious as to something, asked a medical professional and got thier opinion, albeit, it might not have been a fully informed opinion. I agree it is a sensative subject, but if it is too difficult, you can just move on to another post and not read it and avoid saying things that are hurtful and not very kind to the poster. I mean, it is one thing to polietly disagree, but to choose to be flat out rude is uncalled for.

It sounds as though Jennifer, even if she doesn't have children on her own, saw this and was shocked and a little scared by the number of miscarriages and how frequent they seem. Which I can honestly say, is a little scary for parents who are trying for thier first child.

Bamamom replied:
I agree and I want to apologize if my earlier comment seemed a bit harsh. See I've been on this board for quite some time but am often a lurker because of situations such as this - I'm scared of getting lambasted for a comment or question. As I stated in an earlier post I had also been curious about the angels - on my part it was because I fear a m/c or loss of a child so much. So when I see the angels it makes it so very real that it could happen to me because it happens to so many women.

Again my heart goes out to all of you who have lost children. I know that for me Tripp was a baby the moment I saw those two lines - if I had only known about him for 1 day he would have still been my child. I think it's wonderful that there is a place where you can publically acknowledge that child because so often they are overlooked or unmentioned.

I hope that my comments did not offend anyone - this is an extremely sensitive issue and I mean no harm.

Crystalina replied: Ok Ok! Stop. She explained herself more then once. Can't we just get back on topic before the thread is closed....again.

I've said it before~ Hugs and kisses all around!

Jackie012007 replied:
yes please stop... there has been a lot of tension on here lately and I hate to see another post closed and more feelings hurt... can we all agree to disagree and move on to posting on other topics? To those who are hurt, and a general 's all around

mckayleesmom replied: I had a miscarriage before concieving Mckaylee....Although I don't have it listed in my siggy or anything. It was very painful and still is...I try not to think about it. I totally understood your question and observation and find it sad at times myself. It is seeming more and more like a common thing that occurs and that is very sad to me.

ashtonsmama replied:
This really isn't that big of a deal that you need to get upset about!

I wasn't trying to be rude or say that you were asking on impulse either, you seem like a sensitive person and I didn't think you were asking to be rude, so please don't think that.
No worries. It's just an emotional topic, and I think that we all agree on that, and we can just let it go. No one was trying to hurt anyone's feelings!

cameragirl21 replied: Crystalina, I was very sorry to hear about your niece, can't even describe in words how I felt when you first posted about her.
Tell me, how is Lilly doing?
Be well,
Jennifer

MyLuvBugs replied: I'm just gunna throw this out there....please take no offense, I just felt I needed to say it.....

A lot of you have stated that MC is becoming more and more common....personally I don't feel that it is. I think it's always been this prevalent, if not more. However, it's just that now we as a society are becoming more open to discussing it. KWIM? More and more people are telling their stories in order to heal their hearts (If that's possible ). Therefore, more people are becoming aware of it's numbers....make sense?

Also, some of you have stated that "until you loose a child of your own you'll never know what it's like".....I partially agree with you and partially don't. I personally have not experienced the loss of a child, but I have seen the pain it can cause. My father had 6 children and has lost 3 of them. 1 at 6months, 1 at 12 years, and then one in her 30's. He's a 70 year old man that can be brought down to tears just by talking about anyone of them, and it kills me to see him get so sad. And even though I haven't lost one of my own children, I do know how much I love my children, and how much it would kill me inside if something should ever happen to one of them. Maybe to some of you that's just not the same, but for me it is.

Please no one be offended by what I say. I'm actually sitting here crying while I type b/c this subject is so sad. My heart goes out to all of you.

BAC'sMom replied: I’ll start by saying I first noticed this thread last night and read it to my DH he too was shocked by the “wording”. I actually could not sleep last night thinking about this thread I guess it brought up a lot of RAW emotions. I think most of you will agree I keep to myself and I normally do not get involved with debates or certain discussions. For the most part I read posts I bite my tongue and move on. So I am moving on….

Since cameragirl21 wanted to how common miscarriage is here is a link

http://www.resolve.org/site/DocServer/Misc...s.pdf?docID=221

Thanks to those of you who emailed to support me opening my mouth.




Done

coasterqueen replied: Erika,

I see what you are saying about the commonality of them. I think what I was meaning is that I don't think the numbers of miscarriages have gone up over the years making them more common, but the fact that we now know about them whereas before the medical technology we didn't. And I do agree that we are talking about them more now than ever but I also think that has to do with the fact that's because we have the technology to know.

luvmykids replied:
That was a real outburst for you, girl!

ashtonsmama replied:
You certainly normally don't. It feels good to let stuff out sometimes, doesn't it?

MyLuvBugs replied:
Yeah I totally agree 100% with you Karen. I sometimes think that technology does us more harm than good, ya know? Maybe we'd be better off not knowing about these early early pregnancies. At least mentally we'd be better off. KWIM?

When I was PG with Lorelei I started bleeding at 6 weeks...just a week and a half after finding out we were PG. Rushed to the hospital, had an U/s and found out that we'd been PG with twins. Identical twins that were sharing the same sack. Which would have been a VERY high risk PG......However, one of the fetuses had stopped developing at around 4-5 wks and was being absorbed now....that's why I was bleeding (so they say ). We'd no idea I was having twins, and personally I really wish they hadn't told me. I mourned that child for over a year.....Thinking what it would have been like to have two Lorelei's (Lord help me ).

But I can't consider it a loss or a misscarriage b/c I still had a beautiful healthy child come out of that PG. When we found out we were having a girl this time.....I felt like it was that baby coming back to me. KWIM? Like there was a reason that we weren't supposed to have the twin girls. This one just wanted to be her own separate person and come at a later time when she was ready. So....I don't mourn or really think of it as a loss....just a timing error (in a manner of speaking). And now we'll have that second girl we were ment to have.

Sounds silly I know. But that's my logic.

coasterqueen replied:
I had no idea Erika. Thank you for sharing that. See, people see things so differently. How you took the loss of the twin, is different than others may have. That's why it's good to learn from others and how they view things.

ZandersMama replied: That doesnt sound silly Ericka. I was originally pregnant with twins my first pregnancy, and the doctors thought I had lost both. I know how you feel. I'm so lucky to have my boy, he is strong and healthy, but I wonder alot if he feels or will feel like something is missing, KWIM?

MommyToAshley replied: To Bac'sMom's defense... I understand what she was saying and why she felt that way. I was a bit shocked when I read the post. At first, it appeared as though the topic was posted to stir up emotions, hurt, and hard feelings, especially with a title like "pushing my luck here". However, after further explanation, I take it at face value that was not the intent... so no hard feelings Jennifer. Thanks for clarifying your reason for posting. But, this is an emotional and very personal question... you have to expect answers to be likewise.

I've posted Joshua's story here, and it was helpful for me to share it with those that I considered friends. Yes, it was on the net for anyone to read, but I was writing to my friends here at PC that I needed to lean on during an emotional time ... a time when other friends and family just didn't understand what I was going through. This won't give you the scientific answers you are looking for, but I don't mind sharing our story with you:

http://forums.parentingclub.com/index.php?showtopic=5544&hl

BAC'sMom replied: Thank you Dee Dee that really means a lot to me.

cameragirl21 replied: MommytoAshley, the only reason I entitled the post, "pushing my luck" is because that same day I asked about rats as pets and foolishly brought religion and the plague into it which was stirred up a bit of controversy and I simply felt I was pushing my luck by posting on two sensitive themes in one day.
I cannot tell you how much I regret bringing up this topic and I suspect it will haunt me for as long as I choose to post here.
I understand people's feelings and emotions run raw but I also feel that no one should be judged too harshly until all the facts and intentions are collected and examined.
You know what they say, "judge not lest ye be judged...."
Take care,
Jennifer

coasterqueen replied:
Jennifer,

I knew what you meant with the subtitle of your post because I saw your post on rats too.

cameragirl21 replied: Thank you, Karen, this is all just more complicated than I ever imagined.
And just for clarification before anyone else gets mad, I mean that posting here is more complicated, not angels in heaven or anything like that.
Take care,
Jennifer

luvmykids replied:
We're really not a "complicated" board, I'm sure if you stick around a bit you'll find that out.

MommyToAshley replied: I didn't know about the rat post... probably good though because I am scared of the furry little critters...LOL. Anyways, you and I talked via PM and all is well. As I said in my post above, I was glad you clarified your reason for posting this question and there are no hard feelings. I told you in PM that we've all made posts that we've regretted, at least I know I have. I know you didn't have any ill intentions and I hope we can all just move on.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Erika That's so sweet. It made me cry.