More Jon and Kate drama

cameragirl21 wrote: http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/pop...226713&src=news
Now this intrigued me...looks like leaving the show is not an option, they are under contract and TLC could and probably will enforce the contract. Do you believe the children are being exploited and if so, do you consider TLC to be partly to blame?
That is something I was wondering while watching this little debate...is TLC partly to blame for continuing on with this and enforcing a contract when they see what it's doing to the family?
What would you do if you were Jon? Do you think new laws need to be enacted to protect children on reality tv since it's becoming more and more popular?

mckayleesmom replied: Personally I think TLC should be the bigger person here and not give Kate and Jon a choice and cancell the show. I'm not sure if the children will suffer ill effects in the long run by doing the show, but certainly watching their parents go through a hard time and be drug through the dirt on national tv and media can't be good for them to witness.

How long do you think its going to be before Madi and Kara read it or hear something about it from friends? Personally I don't by for a second that the older 2 don't know at least a little about what is going on.

Can you imagine googling your family in the future and seeing all that?

Enough is Enough...pull the plug.

coasterqueen replied: You know, I don't know what I would do. Those children have clearly been exploited from day one and I find it sad that anyone would do that to their children, even if it is to give them a "better" home, a better life, more vacations, college educations, etc. KWIM? That's why I, personally, would never consider doing a show like that. I know it was mentioned before that why wouldn't they do it to get all the stuff, so they can send 8 children to college, etc. .....what ever happened to if your parents can't afford your college education YOU, yourself work hard to go to college? My parents didn't pay for mine. *I* worked my bum off to pay for college and yes, there are such things as loans and I will be paying my student loans for the next 20+ years. So those kids could do the same. NO ONE NEEDS their parents to pay their college education. Sure, I'd love to pay my kids tuition and I will try everything I can, but if I can't - if they really want to go they WILL find a way. That kind of thinking is all in how one is raised, I guess.

I just find it incredibly sad these kids were exploited like this, continue to be, etc. They should have NEVER signed another year contract knowing what was going on in their marriage. No matter how much they really think they NEED that money. FAMILY will ALWAYS be more important to me than what I can provide for my children. We could live in a cardboard box and as long as we have each other and are happy that is what is important. Shame on them for not realizing that as well.

DVFlyer replied: TLC's job is to get advertising revenue. They could care less how it happens.

Their next show is going to be "reality TV and how it affects the children involved. Watch how Jon and Kate's children grow through their teen years."

coasterqueen replied:
ALL those kids have to know something is going on w/their parents. Kids aren't stupid and can see when parents aren't getting along AND question why daddy isn't living there anymore. Why he keeps going in and out of the garage apartment he's living on on their property. I mean, come on.......kids are far more intelligent than we give them credit for.

cameragirl21 replied: I didn't know he lived in a garage apartment on their property...didn't know they had one.
As for TLC and its job being to raise revenue, I get that but at some point doesn't someone have to know that they've crossed the line?
They could raise revenue by selling babies...hiring indigent but otherwise beautiful, healthy women and pay them huge sums of money to create babies and sell them for enormous sums of money to wealthy, childless couples but at some point someone has to know that this is wrong, no?
I don't fault TLC so much but I'm wondering now if they too should share some of the blame as they film this train wreck in motion.
Also, if the children are being exploited, isn't TLC partly to blame for that too? Who is exploiting them? Not just the parents but what about TLC exploiting them to raise revenue...?
Oh, and Karen, don't be so sure you're going to be paying student loans for 20+ years...Obama is cramping down on them and there is a movement for student loan forgiveness in order to boost the economy....

coasterqueen replied:
I read in various places about him living in the apartment above their garage. Whether it's there or somewhere else....they have to know it's odd he's not sleeping there. kwim?

Ok, so blame TLC for exploiting the children, but Jon and Kate sign those contracts - they could walk away from it. They could have never chosen to do the show so they first handedly exploited their children before TLC did. Poor Octomom was given crap for wanting to do a show and "exploit" her children and the majority of common folk thought that is exactly what she would be doing, but Jon and Kate aren't because they are married and Octomom is not? Supposedly J&K signed a contract for this year (40 episodes no less!) knowing of their problems. They obviously don't care about what their kids could read. IF they did care, they would have not gone and done interviews with People, they would have done whatever was necessary for those children if in fact THEY were the most important things in their life. That's just my opinion and obviously I don't know all the facts.

And on the student loan thing.........that would be awesome, considering Ryan and I, both, will be paying on ours for 20+ years. But we'll pay for it in some other way....we always do. We did, however, take advantage of "Prince Obama" (as DH calls him) - his eco plan and are doing geothermal heating/cooling in our home. He's giving us a 30% credit on our taxes for it.

DVFlyer replied: Yes, it's exploitation and everyone is to blame: The media, the participants (obviously not the children), the advertisers, the viewers... etc.

TLC picks and chooses what they air based on what they think will get the best ratings and therefore the highest $$$ from the advertisers. Yes, they could air a show on selling babies, but that is illegal... unless, of course, you're talking adoption.

The real question is why do we like to watch train wrecks? And is the wreck we like to watch or the aftermath or the day after the train wreck.

Here's a clue: If there was a 5 season long train wreck, it'd go down in history as the most watched show. Once the clean-up was over, no one would care what happened(s) to the people, they'd just look for the next train wreck.

msoulz replied:
Very well said sir!

TLC is LOVING this train wreck. It's publicity for the show!! The media is feeding right into it - advertisers will buy more because of the morbid curiosity of the public who will now watch due to the publicity ... and the cycle continues.

cameragirl21 replied: just for the record, I'm not taking any of the blame away from Jon and Kate. Just saying that obviously drama sells, which is why reality tv is so popular, it's filled with alleged "real life" drama which for many is better than you can get from bad acting on soap operas.
BUT, in typical reality tv, adults sign up and they know what they're signed on to, even if it doesn't turn out to be as much fun as they thought it would be. But these children did not sign on to this, nor do they have a choice. This show has been going on for so long that I doubt the twins even remember what real life feels like and the sextuplets were still babies so they have never experienced life without a camera following them.
The question is, does TLC bear any responsibility for the fact that they are eager participants in the exploitation of these children? Jon and Kate signed those contracts but their 8 kids didn't.
Just something to consider....

cameragirl21 replied: And I realize that TLC is loving this train wreck but doesn't that in itself make them somewhat complicit here?
Jon and Kate signed the contract and now TLC is raking in on the prize and the victims here are the children whom everyone seems to have forgotten about, nor can they speak for themselves....

coasterqueen replied:
J&K are their parents, though, they are responsible for their children hence they make the decisions for them.....not TLC. Again, not saying TLC isn't to blame in any of this, but J&K make the decision for those children -- no one else.

jcc64 replied: See, Obama's not all bad, Karen!
I was very surprised to learn that there are no laws protecting the earnings from the show for future use by the children. In other words, Jon and Kate are free to spend, spend, spend right now, and in 13 yrs when it's time for the kids to go to college and their fame and fortune is a distant memory, there may be no money at all. I do think that's wrong--there would be no story w/o the kids, and they are entitled to some legal protection for what they "earned."
And ita about kids working to earn college tuition- it took me ten years to pay off my tuition. But mine was $11K /yr--a fraction of what it now costs. I feel for kids saddled with all that debt before they even get out of the gate--including mine.

cameragirl21 replied:
so if Jon and Kate decided they would let their kids parade around on camera naked and TLC obliged and filmed them you would say that Jon and Kate are the most to blame here?

coasterqueen replied:
As Ryan said "if you can't beat um, join um" - that is what he said to me about going ahead and doing the geothermal since he's giving the rebate. Oh believe me we WILL pay for all that in some way.....it's not free, nothings for free, so I don't see him as good, just passing the buck to someone else when they get in office. Dems are AWESOME for doing that in our good state.

Neways, off the political train $11K....I wish mine was $11K, try at least double if not more than that....I lost track. Yes, I feel for kids who have even more debt - but I can guaranty they will have a lot more opportunity for grants, free help, etc from the federal government and other large groups I know I would have never had....since I only have one sibling.

Mommy2BAK replied: Why do people judge them so harshly? When I watched the show last monday night I cried because I have read Kate's first books and I think I sense how she feels about her family and what it took to get to where she is and to see those kids having to go through this just brought tears to my eyes. I guess I just feel like maybe you should walk a mile in someone's shoes before you step up on your soap box.

boyohboyohboy replied:
I have to agree tamara, I just cant feel anything but sad for a marriage that is ending, a family that is being torn apart, and the lonelines that is coming for kids who miss their parents and a wife and husband who miss each other and what they had..

truely its heartbreaking..

jcc64 replied: It is tragic, I don't think anyone can deny that. Every time a family breaks up and children are involved--it's tragic. Which is why they should probably turn the cameras off and do what's best for their family in private.

sparkys2boys replied:
FINALLY!! I am so glad that you said the truth here. I have been reading the posts about this family and all the "I don't want to start a debate trash" and just find it sad that every day someone goes and digs up dirt and had to do a post in here on it. Like this is the first family to have ever have marriage issues here. GEESH, get over it and if they chose to be on tv then let them. Apparently TLC is doing it's job well.. just look at the threads in here about them. So please don't be to quick to judge them.. in the end, they are real people (on tv or not) and those kids are real children that in the end I am sure just want to be happy kids with a mom and a dad.

msoulz replied:

The welfare of the children is always the parents' responsibility. I would hope that there is some kind of out clause in the contract to protect the kids. TLC is a business and they will behave as such. It the children are being harmed in any way IMHO the parents need to protect them and, as stated above, turn off the cameras, sell the multi million dollar house and expensive cars if necessary, and get the family situation under control. If that is judging them harshly, so be it. The children should come FIRST, and part of that is the parents' relatonship.

cameragirl21 replied: But Mary, they have a contract, they can't walk away, TLC could sue them if they did. I realize they shouldn't have signed the contract but I think we all have done things that in retrospect we realized we shouldn't have done so what do they do now?
TLC has said this show will continue as long as viewers are interested. Idk, I do hold them partly responsible because they are openly benefitting from someone's train wreck and while the parents are MOST to blame, I think at some point TLC has to know right from wrong. I am a business and sometimes pose children with tigers, scorpions, etc, and I benefit from it too but I always make sure the children's safety and well being comes first, along with that of the animal, even though the children have their parents and the animals have their owner. I've had to cancel photoshoots because I didn't feel the conditions were conducive to the children's wellbeing even if that didn't directly affect me. I think there is some responsibility there for those who benefit from the end product even if at the end of the day the finger of blame will be pointed at the parents by the majority of people who are mere spectators to what is happening.
Kate has also said she needs the show to provide for her family as a possible single mom.
I'm not sure the cameras in the house are the big deal so much, because the kids seem to be used to it by now and I think you get to the point where you just tune all that out. What wigs me out is the paparazzi following them everywhere...I can't imagine I'd just go about my day and allow those people to photograph my children. Idk if Kate has any choice but to be fair, only public figures are fair game for the paparazzi and it can be argued that the kids are not public figures because they did not willingly sign on to this.
I just feel for that family even though I do feel this is their own doing and a consequence of their own decisions and actions. It's weird to me because I don't watcht the show regularly but they seem to be front page news everywhere and when I watch this I have this strange voyeurish feelling like I shouldn't be watching but then it's also hard to look away...it's hard to explain but it's a bothersome feeling and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

stella6979 replied: I think if you're going to broadcast your life to the entire world, it shouldn't be too surprising when people do judge you. This is the life they chose and if they want to stop being judged, maybe they should find a new "career". JMO.
As for the kids being exploited, I think the Parents are the only ones to blame.

coasterqueen replied:
While I'm on my soapbox I will not ever have to walk a mile in her shoes because if I had that many kids at one time, or at any time I'd never put them in the camera's eye so to "document my children's lives" or to get funding for them. I'd do it on my own. Do I think it's rough raising multiples? Yes, I bet is is 100% harder. So if you want me to walk a mile in her shoes in that respect, sure I can see all that side. Do I feel sorry for J&K for putting their kids in front of the camera? No. Do I feel sad about a family falling apart? Of course I do. I'm not that cold. My grandfather raised THIRTEEN children (a year a part each) pretty much by himself because my grandmother died young. He was injured in war and then on the job and STILL provided for his children. Were they rich? No. Did they seek out a reality tv show to document their children's lives or to get help financially. No. Those are the types of people I look at a bit more highly than someone like J&K.

It's amazing how not too long ago someone like Mollie (who used to be a member of this board) was harassed to no end for having so many kids, for having rough times, for doing things just a bit differently than the rest of us. No one seemed to mind getting on their soapbox then and giving her crap. Did they?

cameragirl21 replied:
That is a very good point, Karen.

msoulz replied: I know, in an ideal world TLC would actually care about the situation, and hopefully if the parents and their lawyer went to the network they could get out of the contract. I have a tough time believing that there is no way to legally be released from the contract. I wonder, and have no idea, if there has been dialog between the parties about this - someone is greedy here, and who knows if it is the network or the parents?

But I agree with you, Jennifer, that the network SHOULD let these people out of the contract for the sake of the children. Do they WANT out? Who is the greedy party here? Or has the media blown the whole thing so far out of proportion that we are all speculating on something that isn't reality? It's hard to say.

cameragirl21 replied: Idk if there is any way to get out of the contract but the issue is that Jon wants out of the contract and Kate doesn't, she enjoys the spotlight and attention and money and Jon is not so into the attention and spotlight but I imagine he does enjoy the money.
There is no doubt the parents are most to blame but I do think TLC is being somewhat greedy here also, this show is a HUGE moneymaker for them so that means sacrificing 8 unwitting children and a marriage at the altar of greed and fortune then so be it, right?
There is SO much speculation about them, though, I mean everyday I find something new on Yahoo's and AOL's homepage, front and center. A family therapist said he believes that their marriage wouldn't have survived regardless and that it's not the fault of being on the show, etc.
Who knows but I guess I'm wondering why it is that so many of us, myself included , are so intrigued by this family...?

Calimama replied:
I don't think Mollie was given crap because she did things differently and had a lot of kids. Mollie was given crap for being mean, rude, and degrading in some.. scratch that.. A LOT of her posts. It's not like everyone said, "hey you have a lot of kids and don't use a washing machine!" and started picking on her. Give this board more credit.

DVFlyer replied: If Jon and Kate want out of the contract (although I haven't read it so perhaps this isn't a possibility) all they have to do is be boring. Don't go out, don't do anything special etc. Just wake up, feed the kids, let them play outside, put them down for a nap, wake them up feed them lunch, let them play outside and then in for dinner and bed.

Don't argue with hubby or wife, don't have any outbursts. When the kids are napping, sit down and read a book or stare off into space.

Show will be canceled in one season. It's only ongoing because of the drama.

Nothing TLC could do... unless the contract specifically states they must participate in certain functions; in which case they have to keep moving forward and put this behind them whenever it's possible to do so.

coasterqueen replied:
Thank you for pointing that out. You are correct.


The point of the matter is people judge people ALL the time, even when they think they aren't - whether it be done on a board, said in private to someone, or emailed in private. I just think everyone should realize that we all aren't perfect, we all judge in some form or fashion - so if that's the case, we all get on our soapbox from time to time

stella6979 replied:
I agree and if I'm remembering correctly, she wasn't driven off, she was kicked off.

Calimama replied:
Very true. I think judgments are a part of life. And sometimes we let the judgments WE'VE made for our selves about a person, over shadow who that person actually is and that's sad too.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
ITA with this. I thought it was wonderful that she had 6 kids, cloth diapered and breast fed. I just didn't like the way she made everyone else feel like they weren't doing a good job if they didn't do the same.


As for the Jon and Kate thing, I've never really watched the show aside from an episode here and there, but what I did see the last time I saw one (over a year ago) was that Kate was disrespectful to Jon, and at least one of the kids were getting upset about the cameras and trying to push them away. So imo, especially now in light of the troubles they're going through, it would be a good thing if the show were to end.

coasterqueen replied:
Never said she was kicked off.

coasterqueen replied:
Oh I agree. My point is it's just hypocritical to say one judges and one doesn't. Not saying you said that. Just saying we ALL do.

Heck, I get private emails judging me and my life all the time and they have NO clue what my life is like and then *I'm* told I'm judging people.

Calimama replied:
Oh I'm guilty. I wish I was perfect but 21 years and I'm still not there.

lisar replied:
True.... Make it boring and they will cancel the show. End of story.

stella6979 replied:
Oh, I know you never said that, I'm saying it. I just meant that no one here drove her off, I believe she was kicked off.
As for EVERYONE judging, I couldn't agree more.

lisar replied:
I agree with Calimomma on this one.
She judged me more than once for things I had no control over.

coasterqueen replied: This wasn't really supposed to be a thread against Mollie. I'm sorry I brought her name up. I was just using her as an example that we ALL judge and no one should be called out that they judge and others don't. That's all. I'm done.

TheOaf66 replied:
ok Karen, I will start publicly telling you how horrible of a parent, spouse, and person you are

moped replied: Not that it matters, but i think that Mollie actually judged everyone else because we didn't parent the way she thought we should........she made me feel bad a number of times for how I parent...........not cool on her part.

coasterqueen replied:
Thanks. I was really getting sick of your emails telling me that stuff. Now others can see how you are to me. j/k

mummy2girls replied:
I agree as well... I used to judge people right when i meet them or see what they do. BUT I learned until I actually walk a mile in thier shoes I cant really judge. And jon swore he never cheated on teh show on monday, he regrets his actions but he didnt cheat. And until we all have acxtually sat and saw him directly cheating then we cant sit backa nd blame him. And we cant blame kate for him cheating if he did cheat and thatw as the reason he gave. He chose to marry her, he chose to have kids with her, he chose to stay with her for as long as he did. If he didnt like it from the beginning he wouldnt of stayed with her. I would never hang my dirty laundry for the whole world to see. And i would never put my kids into that situation.. i jus tthink we should stop balming kate for all this. I do not liek teh fact that they have chose money over the kids but nothign we can do about it

moped replied:
I totally cried watching it too......I haven't said much about the whoel jon and Kate Drama because I feel for this woman BIG TIME!!!!!! Honestly I don't have anything bad to say about her

cameragirl21 replied: I understand this is a topic that some may not like but if you put yourself on public tv and engage in dramatic behaviors, you are inviting judgment, it's par for the course.
I actually think this is a very fitting topic for a parenting board because it brings up many issues that are true to real life, especially for parents--imagine you require infertility treatments in order to conceive and you plan for one child but you get six. Given that many babies are unplanned, one doesn't necessarily need to have multiples to perhaps find themselves in a similar situation. There are two major issues here--one is money, of course, kids are expensive and you have to provide for them somehow and I can't imagine that wouldn't be the first thought that comes to someone's mind when that person is told that congrats, you're pg, the infertility treatment was successful BUT, we're seeing more than one baby...in fact, we see six, count 'em, six fertilized eggs.
The other issue is society's fascination with multiple births. I have to say, strictly speaking for myself, I absolutely love multiples and wish very much I'd been a twin. I always stop to admire multiples when I run into them out and about and once I saw identical triplet girls, they were 10 years old and I naturally started asking them questions about if they share a room, if they all get along, etc, and their mom, ironically, was an ob/gyn. And the girls were all too happy to answer all my questions, they gathered around me and were happy to talk. I imagine they're used to that kind of thing, it's normal human curiosity and the girls, like most people, were eager to talk about themselves. They were all the more fascinating because they were identical but anyway, there is a demand in society to learn more about multiples so there is an opportunity for the likes of the Gosselins to cash in...that solves the problem of money concerns but obviously it creates a whole other problem.
So, it's not a matter of judgment and most of us will never walk in their shoes but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to have an opinion. It's an interesting question, especially in these economic times--how does one pay for a large family and how does one juggle opportunities to pay with any other problems those opportunities may create?
And this is not just the case for making money on reality tv, imagine they were not on tv but both parents had to take 2 jobs to pay the bills...there is a price (in losing out on family time, etc) to be paid for that also.
I think it's a very viable topic, especially because they are front page news everyday these days and it's fair to say that they did put themselves in this position, even if they didn't expect it to be like this. Whether you like Kate or not, she is a human being and it's hard not to feel sorry for her from time to time because we all make bad decisions, that's the hallmark of being a human being. But if you don't like this topic then move on to the next one or create your own topic about something that interests you. No need to point fingers at others just because their opinions on this topic don't jive with yours.

moped replied:
Ok, just to "coin a phrase" from cameragirl

Not meant to start a debate, but seriously Jennifer, you start the topics that you know are going to gets views and replies like crazy.
There is nothing wrong wtih opinions, but 90% of your topics start with "I don't want to start a debate"............well yes yuo do and there is nothing wrong with a good debate, that is one thing we have all learned from being here!
I don't think anyone is pointing fingers

lovemy2 replied: I just wish I could be perfect and always make the right decisions - obviously there are people out there in the world like that and coincedently - some of them frequent this board

And for the record - I am sure I spelled coincedently wrong - but that's OK....

moped replied:
No christine it isn't OK!!!!

Teasin ya!

mummy2girls replied:
No one is pointing fingers. Why start a discussion when only the ones that agree can post. People do have different opinions for sure and some may be harsher and some not. But how is it fair to ask a question but only expect everyone to agree with each other. Yes some poeples opinions aren't jiving with the next but thats what a "debate" is about. How boring would the world be if we all agreed?

I don't agree with how the kids were put in front of the camera and now have to live with the cameras 24/7. They should not of signed for another year knowing thier marriage is in shambles. That I agree with for sure.The kids to be dragged through teh mud like they are and will be is not anything i would like to see at all. What i dont agree with is the fact alot of the public is jumping on the lets blame kate band wagon for jons actions. NOPE. Jon is a grown man he decided to do what he did( if he even did it).. what we all are hearing is rumors. We have to remember that people will say almost anything for money. even family. Me personally i wouldnt do that to family but there is people out there that would. And unfortunately with how the economy is going with people losing thier jobs and homes they would do anything for money. Im not saying you guys would stoop that low im just making a point. And i do feel sorry for kate... Losing your husband and facing divorce would crush anyone no matter what the situation. You loved that man and still do and then you guys are apart. Its tough.

msoulz replied:

Indeed!! And why get one's proverbial feathers all ruffled when someone disagrees?

cameragirl21 replied:
I never said people who don't agree with me can't post, but rather, I'm responding to those who think having an opinion is the same as "judging"...if that's how you feel, move on to the next topic, plain and simple.

lovemy2 replied:
Plain and simple Jennifer would be NOT starting a topic with "not looking to start a debate" when you know darn well it will go south - THAT is plain and simple.

Have you ever gone back and taken a look at the number of threads you start that end this way and they are always prefaced with I don't want to start a debate, blah blah, blah - you are becoming a nusiance in my opinion - plain and simple.

Sorry to be disrespectful but let's call a spade a spade and look back at history and see that others who have done this exact same thing are no longer here - everyone tries to tell you this in a nice way but you don't get it so here it is plain and simple - stop making this board such an uncomfortable and down right nasty place at times - THAT is plain and simple.

Now I will wait for my pm from the Mods.....

mckayleesmom replied: I just wanted to use this smilie..

cameragirl21 replied:
Christine...open mouth, insert foot. Go back to the OP...does it say anything about wanting or not wanting to start a debate?!
Also, to borrow your own logic, there is no sense in using the words, "not to be disrespectful" when you in fact, are being disrespectful. I've come to expect that from you, though, and not just directed at me either.
I don't expect an apology from you, even in though in the civilized world, one would be expected to be forthcoming, so I'm going to go back to ignoring you and maybe you should respond in kind and do us both a favor...now THAT would make this board less of an uncomfortable place.

lovemy2 replied:
Replying to you Jennifer is almost worthless but I will I don't fear being disrepectful to you but don't mean it as disrepect to the decent people here on this board or those that run it - your nothing but a troublemaker and you KNOW it and you THRIVE from it. When you have kids come back.....maybe then you will be more civilized and whether or not your OP says not to start a debate it was implied or said by you somewhere - we know how you operate you aren't fooling anyone everyone else just tries to be nice - I don't find a reason to be nice to someone who hasn't earned it - and as for my replies - they are far and few between on her ever since you reared your head here. Now I am done don't bother to respond.

sparkys2boys replied:
AMEN sista!! So glad that you agree on what I have been thinking for MONTHS. Why try to stir the pot with every post?? I mean is there no life outside of meaningless threads that will only cause trouble? It's a parenting board not a debate team.

We all are entitled to say what we think but sometimes it's nice to sit back and just be kind and have nice things to say. Not sit back and watch for the debates or who will go agaisnt who in here.

For a few months things in here were nice and relaxing, talk about kids (parenting board I may remind you.. ??) jobs, etc. NO fighting and constant deabtes or uncomfortable posts.. hmmm when did that all change?? Oh yes, I remember clearly

msoulz replied: It takes more than one to stir a pot. Why do so many folks get so upset because of another's opinion?? Can we all ask ourselves that and stop slinging mud?

sparkys2boys replied:
It only takes one to put in the spoon though.. enuff said

redchief replied: That's enough. This thread is locked.