Might be wrong - but I don't care

mckayleesmom wrote: My niece is 4....will be 5 in november. My sister treats her like she doesn't understand anything and should be given a free pass for everything she does because "she doesn't understand...shes only 4". I say BS.

She always hits my kids...My kids were taught to tell an adult if someone hits them. That didn't do any good because you tell the adult and her mom doesn't punish her. I finally told her that if she kept hitting them...then I was going to give them permission to hit her back. I warned my mom ahead of time and she said that was fine with her. My sister did about a month in jail a while back and we had my niece totally under control. My niece knows that my sister is a sucker and knows how to manipulate her.

Two weeks ago I told them to start hitting her back. She walks up behind them and swats them. My mom caught her wacking Mckaylee in the head the other day and Mckaylee was just getting something off the floor...didn't see it coming. My mom spanked my niece.

Everytime my sister trys to tell them not to hit they both pipe in with "our mom told us that we are allowed to hit her back now".

Just now she came screaming in the house because Russell hit her. Russell came in and said "she hit me first and my mommy said to hit her back". I can tell my sister is pissed, but I don't give a rats . I just sat here and didn't correct him....because its the truth. She knew better to say anything to me because technically my mom has custody of my niece and she is already on thin ice living here. My mom has a condition with the court that if she gets out of line then she can ask her to leave..Shes here on invitation only. My sister knows that she is only here because my mom was nice enough to let her. My mom would totally take my side before hers and she knows it. If she doesn't want to dicipline her child....then my kids are going to fight back. The funny thing is...she will walk up and hit my sister sometimes...or one time she walked up behind my sister and bit her really hard in the leg.....She punished her then? Heck ya she punished her...it caused physical pain to HER.

I know I shouldn't teach them to hit back, but I'm tired of my kids getting beat up upon and there is no punishment for the little criminal. When my sister was in jail that little girl was on her best behavior....she knew I wasn't going to put up with it.

jcc64 replied: Hmmmmmm, I can definitely see why you're frustrated with the lack of parenting on the other side, and as a mom, it's natural to feel defensive and angry when your kids are on the receiving end of someone else's bad behavior, family or not.
Having said that, I'm not sure you're doing your own kids any favors by teaching them to lower their own standards of behavior to meet your niece's. What is your intended outcome--a sense of revenge, tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye, what? It might feel good for you and your kids at that moment, but I'm not sure what lesson they're going to take away from that type of solution.
Here's what I tell my kids. You cannot control everyone else's behavior. You can only control your own. The world is not always a fair place, and you are going to cross paths with all kinds of people, adults and kids alike, who are evil, mean, dumb, strange, difficult to get along with, etc. At those times, in the absence of a fair or impartial jury on the spot (like a responsible adult), you have to reach down inside yourself and do what you know in your heart is the right thing, even if no one's looking.
Because ultimately, you as a parent are not always going to be there to work things out fairly, and the older they get, the less control you will have over their lives. And as parents, we all should want to send our kids out into the world knowing how to solve difficult problems the right way, not the easy way that feels good at that moment. You want to lay the groundwork for an ironclad moral center, right?
I understand the situation at your mother's home is a difficult one. I know it's frustrating for you on a lot of levels. But your biggest priority imo is making sure your kids come away learning the right lesson for the long haul. Your kids are older, no? I would take them aside and appeal to their better side, their more sensible selves, and speak to them about taking the high road. And fwiw, instead of looking at your 4 yo niece as a "little criminal", maybe you could reach inside yourself and instead see a little kid who's confused and in crisis b/c of all the turmoil in her young life. That doesn't mean excusing her behavior, but neither does it mean inviting your kids to indulge in it as well. You're in a unique position to be a positive influence in a kid's life--and it's pretty clear she needs someone to do that for her. Why not you? I would be very careful not to project all of your anger at your sister onto this little girl, even if she isn't always very likable.
I'm sorry if I didn't say what you might have wanted to hear. And I'm sorry you're in a difficult situation with your family.

mckayleesmom replied: I see your point Jeanne but I have done all you have said and it didn't work. Instead my children are taking unessessary abuse from a 4 year old. My reasoning for them hitting back is not for revenge, but because I'm thinking that once she realizes that she will get hit back...she will cut it out. Everytime she hits them I tell them to go tell their aunty and they come back crying because she did nothing.

As for looking inside myself and helping my niece through a crisis....I have been doing that, but its frustrating because all the work I do gets thrown out the window as soon as her mom walks in the door. I'm not mean to my niece, I include her in everything we do. If I take my kids to the park...she goes. If I take my kids to pick out a toy...she goes and picks out a toy too. The month her mom was in jail I took care of her. I still put her to bed amost every night because her mom is too busy talking online. BTW...my sister doesn't include my children in anything. She will bring her daughter home treats and toys and nothing for my children even if I had just taken her daughter out and bought her something. One time she gave her daughter a sucker and Mckaylee asked if she had anymore and if she could have one and my sister didn't know I was standing there..her exact words were "I have tons of them and no you can't have one". That is where my niece gets her thought process. I usually let the kids take turns doing something with me all by themselves...that includes her.


When my sister went to jail that little girl clung to me. I took it as an opportunity to take care of her and curve her bad behavior my sister reinforced. She started going to bed on time...Eating food her mother claimed she wouldn't touch, stopped the high pitched screaming everytime she didn't get her way and rarely hit. The moment my sister came home....all back to the way it was. My kids are older, but not much older and she is definantly old enough and smart enough to know better. Mckaylee and Russell know that under normal circumstances they are not allowed to hit...Does it happen? Of course..they are kids...but its pretty rare. I have it drilled in them that if they get hit, to tell an adult and they will take care of it. My niece has it drilled into her that if she hits...its ok because "she doesnt understand". She understands alot....like the fact that her mom is a sucker.

Alot of this is a jealousy issue. My sister is a very jealous person. She can't stand that her life is constantly in turmoil by her own doing and mine isn't. Its not my children or my fault that my sister can't keep her mouth off alcohol, drugs and like her child..she can't keep her hands to herself. , married a guy I told her was a mistake (because all guys that abandon their girlfriend and newborn are great catches...oh and his lease is up). Well...I was right...so now thats another strike against me.

Yesterday my sister actually spanked Mckaylee because she was getting something off the kitchen counter. She doesn't know how close she came to jail. I don't spank her child and she definantly doesn't spank her own child....so don't touch mine.

Trust me...my last resort was letting them hit back. I'm hoping that a couple hits and she will think before she swngs. She doen't just hit when she is fighting with them either...she is sneaky about it. She will walk up behind them and wack them...and she is almost the same size as them because Mckaylee and Russell are both short...so its not like they are taking it from a baby. They can be watching tv and she will come up behind them and kick them in the back because they are not watching something she wants to watch....even if they were there watching for while and she wasn't even in the room. Yesterday her puppy was in the kitchen and sniffing the floor for anything Russell dropped from dinner ....she was watching him and walked over and kicked him...My mom jumped on her about it and her mom who was sitting right there...just ate her dinner...

I'm one of 6 kids and I remember keeping my hands to myself because if I used them ...I could expect to get hit back. I was whimpy and didn't want to get hit...

mummy2girls replied: I didnt read the responses so im sorry if im just repeating myself....

I can see your frustration in all of that. I have come upon that many times with my own niece( brothers kids). But teaching your children to hit back may be a solutrion at that time BUT it could come back to haunt you in the end. Your kids may hit everyone and anyone because you said it was ok. I know its hard expecially because the mkom is not doinga darn thing to stop the behaviour BUT your said your mom has custody of the child and can say to your sister leave if she sees fit. So.... what I would do in this situation is jump in and deal with your niece yourself and if the sister gets mad your mom can kick her out. So if your neice hits then you yourself do the punishment and get the neice under control again. I had to do that with my neice waaaay back. Jenna was 4 and my niece was 3. my neice would be in jenna space, steal her toys, bite her, hit her and just be down right cruel. My sil would do NOTHING so i got sick of jenna being beat and picked on by her cousin so i stepped ina nd did the timeouts, and taking away things because if my sil wasnt then i was. If i stepped on toes i didnt care because this was my child that was being picked on. I also wanted to show jenna that hiotting was not the solution.

I hope that the situation does get better and your neice gets under control again... ((HUGS))

mummy2girls replied:
This doesnt work .... i have this 5 year old boy in my dayhome and he i think has been one of the worse cases ever in my care. He will hit, kick, lay on the others and not get off, steal things, punch, hold blankets on the other kids faces and hold them down and i can see the other child struggle. And i am afraid that he will do this when im not in teh rooma nd cause real danger. The others are tired of this abuse so they hit back, and he gets upset because he was hit but will contune to keep doing what he does. So doesnt work at all.

cameragirl21 replied: Good God, Brianne, is there any way you could remove yourself and your kids from that house? What an awful situation.
Oh, and for the record, I'm against spanking but if I saw a little girl kick a puppy I'd get over it fast and give her a good spank or two.
Idk, I'm of the thought process that if you are attacked, you defend yourself, period. If a kid hit me or my friends when I was a kid, I hit back. Hard. And as a result, I never got my butt kicked as a kid, no matter the circumstances. Any kid of mine will be taught the same...now, I'd never encourage them to start the situation by throwing the first punch but sometimes you just have to fight back. And I think the most important lesson here is to teach your kids to respect themselves enough to defend themselves.
Oh, and your sister sounds like a real piece of work...no offense but your post actually made me glad to be an only child and I've always wished for a sibling.
If it were me, I'd approach your niece and tell her that if she hits your kids, they're going to hit back and you will back them 100%. If she kicks the puppy, she'll be punished severely. If your sister can't do the right thing, someone else has to step in and do it.
Also, I'm not sure your sister sounds like a fit parent but that is JMO and by all means, you can ignore or disagree with me on that because I don't know your sister other than what you've posted here but seriously, she's doing her child no favors by the way she's raising her and intentionally leaving your kids out of things...not exactly teaching good social skills.

mckayleesmom replied: We only have another month to go...thank goodness. Its not totally miserable all the time....just some of the time. We can go weeks with everything being fine...and then a bad week where things build up till they explode.

Just counting down till we are out of here. My mom is my best friend, but I don't know how she deals with all this.

mckayleesmom replied: Jen...my sister is not a fit parent. The only reason she is here is because of her daughter. If there wasn't a child involved she would have been kicked out a long time ago. My mom is fed up with her, but she puts up with her because my niece needs her mom.

Its only a matter of time before she is back in jail...I can feel it coming. She is probably really going to flip out when she finds out my mom just got a letter in the mail the other day granting her permanent guardianship of my niece. The only reason she is behaving right now is because she thinks she can get her back in 6 months. My mom didn't even ask for permanent...they granted it on their own. When I say behave...I mean staying away from drugs and alcohol and fighting.

I also warned my niece that if the hitting didn't stop..then I would grant them permission to hit back. I warned her more then once before I granted it. So far the kids have only hit back a few times because I think she is pretty darn shocked that they actually did it. Today she tried to say Russell hit her, but she was lying. Mckayle said she actually had thrown a harmonica at Russell because he wouldn't give it to her. My mom was scolding her and as my mom was standing there she chucked a dog toy at Russells head. My mom took her by the hand and sat her on the couch and told her that she wasn't allowed to get up for a while. My mom went outside. my sister comes in....she just woke up even though its 12:45 and asked her what she did. She started to lie and I told my sister the reason she was really sitting there. My sister made her apologize and she was free to go. What did she learn? Nothing. She was only sitting for 2 minues. Any kid will apologize quickly to get out of trouble...I thought she should sit there for a while....

jcc64 replied: Wow, Brianne, sounds like a mess. I'm at a loss. It sounds like your niece and your sister could use some counseling. I'd be concerned about the animal abuse. That's not a good sign. Not that hitting your kids is less of an issue, but animal abuse is one of the early signs of pretty serious psycho-social maladjustment. I'm sure all the inconsistency isn't helping, but it sounds like you have one very angry, confused little girl over there, and it's not going to get better with your sister muddying the waters. I'm sorry for all involved, and I hope this month goes quickly for all of you.

ZandersMama replied: I think you did the right thing, i don't agree with kids hitting BUT

Zander was bullied the whole year in grade primary. He has to be the gentlest child I have ever met, he is a pushover. He was coming home everyday with bruises. I went to the school, fought with the school, fought with the playground supervisors ( where i was told he is the biggest child in grade primary and it shouldnt bother him if the other kids are rough, but thats a whole other story). He literally had bruises all over his legs from another boy kicking and punching him.

I finally told him to fight back. He said he couldn't because they are smaller then him and he didn't want to hurt them, he is 4'2 and 80lbs at age 6 lol.
This all came to a head around the last month of grade primary.

The first day of grade one I told him, if anyone hits you defend yourself. You don't have to hit them but push them away and tell them no. Get them away from you, you're big and strong enough.
Two kids in grade three teamed up on him on the playground that first day and tried to push him around and he ended up taking care of it on his own. Nothing serious just pushed them down on the ground and said you are not picking on me. He hasn't had any problems since. He has lots of friends, the smallest little boy in the class told me at his birthday party that Zander takes care of them with the big kids

I really think it was the best thing he could have done. Our kids need to know not to hit, ect. but they also need to know that sometimes you have to defend yourself. Your kids can't be her punching bag. I know she has had alot of troubles in her life, but she will have to learn sometime that you can't take it out on everyone else. She needs to learn that their are consequences to her actions, something her mother obviously can't teach her.
Zander still doesn't fight btw, he won't hit his brother, and Zavier can be really hard on all of us. His teachers all tell me that he is super polite and bahaved (they wont know what hit them when zav gets there ) He knows not to go looking for trouble but knows not to take crap from anyone either.



anyway sorry for rambling, long day lol i hope it makes some kind of sense

mckayleesmom replied: That is horrible that kids would team up to hurt him. I think the only reason my niece started hitting was because she knew they were told they couldn't hit back. Don't get me wrong...I usually enforce the no hitting because their schools have no tolerance policies. They also know that the rule still applies outside of their cousin.

msoulz replied: Indeed. I think the message is that you don't EVER start it but if you must finish it, then you must finish it. No one should be a door mat.

ZandersMama replied: agreed, thats what i was fetting at i just didnt quite get there

my2monkeyboys replied: That stinks Brianne! So sorry you and kids are having to deal with all this. And not to be mean, but it sounds like the sooner your sister is out of your niece's life, the better.
I agree with how you're handling things. Your children shouldn't be taught to let people run over them.
Hope things are smooth from now until you and the kids move!

luvbug00 replied: Sorry but I would totally do what you are doing. just my honest opinion.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I disagree. It depends on the situation. This is what I had to do with Aiden and Tanner for awhile. Aiden kept hitting Tanner (weird that the younger one would hit the older one) and the only way I got him to stop was to tell Tanner to hit him back (not hard, of course, as he is afterall bigger). Aiden soon figured out he couldn't hit him unless he wanted to get hit back. There were not any language barriers either...which sometimes tends to happen...kids just need to learn how to word their frustrations a lot of times. He needed to 'feel' how he was making his brother feel. It didn't take long for him to figure it out either.

Of course, every child is different. What works for one, isn't going to work for the other. Would I use this way for every situation? No. In fact, the above example was my last resort as well. I am pretty confident, Brianne, that being that you are in the situation, that you know what is best and what works. People in general can only take so much, and hitting/bullying is not something I take lightly. Nice only works for so long before you need to take more extreme measures. Your sister sounds like a...um...'winner'.

bluebear replied:
Same

PrairieMom replied:

kit_kats_mom replied: The girls' have both been exposed to bullying and their martial arts instructor has given them this series of activies to follow. 1. Say STOP IT! or Leave me alone!. 2. try to get away. 3. respond with defensive moves to stop the bully and finally, 4. Fight back. All kids have a right to protect their own bodies in my opinion. But they also know that if I ever catch them bulllying someone else, they will be in a world of trouble.

A&A'smommy replied:
Jennie, I thought that was weird as well Autumn was the one is our household causing all the problems.
I agree with Jennie
BTW IF i was your mom it probably wouldn't be too long before her butt was out of my house again!

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Since your mom has custody of your niece, and your sister isn't really paying attention to her child's behaviour... what about having your kids tell your mom when she hits, instead of your sister?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
It is so crazy. Tanner does his fair share of things to Aiden, but Aiden is the more 'spunky' one out of the two for sure. He sometimes still randomly does things to Tanner, although NOT NEARLY as much as he use to since telling Tanner he could defend himself. Tanner will just be sitting there and Aiden will just walk up to him and push him, for example. The weird thing is that he doesn't do those things to anyone else...ONLY his brother! I guess I should feel lucky though that it's contained. He's great with other kids, but when it comes to his brother he feels the need to show him who he thinks is the boss.

youngmomofone replied: I would have done the same thing because I have done the same thing. Some kid at school was hitting mine and both dh and I both told her to start swinging back.

Grr, It's a pet peeve of mine when parents aren't parents to their children! That is what is wrong with society now, and our poor kids will have to work with the kids who have entitlement issues as adults, now that will suck.

My2Beauties replied: I'm with Cary...I'm an eye for an eye gal when it comes to fighting and hitting, if my kids tell another child to stop once and they don't, by all means hit that kid back even harder! I am scared to death of bullying, I want my kids to take up for themselves and learn to defend themselves, I don't want them to ever be in a situation where they feel bullied because that leads into a lot of other issues. I won't have a problem I believe....Hanna is very um....vocal and is the little boy I never had when it comes to wrestling and fighting Aubrey will fight back if tested a lot, but I see her crying and giving up sometimes too so I gotta work on her lol I think you're dong the right thing regardless of the situation, they need to learn to defend their bodies, no one should have to endure bullying of any type. My girls also know if they start any crap with anyone or bully anyone themselves...well then they'll have to deal with me bullying them and they don't want that lol

bluebear replied: I say "treat others the way you would like to be treated." However, you wanted to be treated with respect and not be hit, so to get back on their level you fight back.
When I was a senior in high school, two freshman boys pushed me into the lockers in a very crowded area. They should've known better to NOT do that to a girl, but kids are mean so they're going to do whatever they want. I am a very small, quiet person so they saw me as a target and probably thought I was their age because I look very young. Well as soon as they hit me I jumped on top of them but I fought them back harder. Teachers and monitors were there and did nothing about it because I had every intention to do that. This scared them off (along with the friends they were with) and every time they saw me again they would stay away from me.
Giving someone a taste of their own medicine will make it stop once they get the clue.