Madonna to be on Oprah tomorrow - Ugh!

Crystalina wrote: I have nothing against Madonna. I used to love her music back in the Material Girl days but she has moved beyond me over the years. My thing with her and this adoption is...who cares if she jumped ahead of everyone in line (which she denies and I wasn't there so I can't say) and I really have a problem with adoptions outside of the U.S. I feel that we should adopt our own first. That is surely not saying that children from other countries should not be adopted but we are a wealthy country and it's sad that Americans can't adopt an American child first. They will get on a plane and fly away from our childeren just to bring back another. What gets me about Madonnas adoption is that she would bring that baby back here when it's obviouse that the only reason his father has given him up is because he can't afford to take care of him. The father has mentioned he loves his child and if it weren't for finances he'd have him. If Madonna cared for that child enough to adopt him why not leave him with the father and help the father out financially so they can stay together? Why not help all of the children in that particular orphanage by making a financial contribution or even "adopting" the orphanage? Give them playground equipment, make sure they have money for food that kind of thing. Why would someone with her money help only one child and then have it be a child who still has a loving father?

Anyway, she's going to be on Oprah tomorrow talking about it.

stella6979 replied:
The only thing about adopting from the states is that sometimes you have to wait years and years to get a child. International adoptions are a much quicker process and for a couple who's been waiting and wanting a child, I'm glad that International adoption is available.
As for Madonna, someone should kick her in the head. She's turned into a complete wacko, just like most celebrities these days.

cameragirl21 replied: i think the reason for international adoptions is that there have been several cases here in the US where biological parents wanted the children back and the courts gave them back after the adoptive parents raised them for a certain amount of time.
adoptive parents don't have enough rights in the US IMO so it's somewhat safer to go abroad where you're much less likely to get a court notice from biological parents who suddenly had a change of heart.
idk about Madonna and her adoption case, nor do i care really, just wanted to address the point about international vs domestic adoptions.

mckayleesmom replied: ya...the internation adoption doesn't erk me, But the things these celebrities have the money to do and don't does erk me.....Mabye they could sell some of their prada shoes and help out.

holley79 replied: ITA that adopitve parents need more rights. I'm not even going to get into the Madonna deal.

Jamison'smama replied: I personally vehemently disagree with your statement about international adoption (not sure you were trying to start a debate ). My sister adopted a child from Russia and it is admirable and should not be looked down upon because she chose to go out of this country. There are many reasons people go international for adoption. If you want specifics on our families choice I would be happy to share them with you. Children from many of these severly disadvantaged countries will end up in horrible situations when they age out of their system--and even while they are in the system. There are no programs to help them--most will be homeless.

Apparently there is no waiting list for adoption in the country that Madonna chose to adopt from so as far as that point goes, I don't think she jumped ahead. The child she chose does seem like a strange situation. I agree, my first thought was why doesn't she financially help this man and if she wants to adopt a child, choose one whose parents have died or do not want them regardless.

stella6979 replied:
I absolutely agree with you. My Aunt and Uncle adopted two children from Korea and it was the best thing they ever could have done. They first applied in the U.S. and after waiting 8 years, they still never heard anything. After applying for the International adoption, my cousin John arrived in the states about 8 months later.

mckayleesmom replied: I totally agree with why people adopt out of this country. Its very hard to adopt from the US and and the US courts always favor birth parents over adopted....I can't imagine having to lose my child that I raised and loved.

My only problem with overseas adoption is how educated these people are. The man in Madonna's case claims that he couldn't read and believed she would only be helping his son....When he signed the papers...he claims that it was not suppose to be that she was adopting his son. I can see this happening because he isn't educated in what he was getting involved in. I think these people need to be counselled and be fully aware of what they are doing before terminating their rights.

Crystalina replied:
It can get messy yes, but there are many children who are unwanted here and there is no parent wanting them back. The "problem" with those children though are that they are black or are not as young as people are wanting. It's easier to fly to China and get a beautiful Chinese baby. I know a lady who has went there to adopt twice so far for children. The first time because it was easier for her and then the second time so her girls would "match" (and that was her exact word ) I'm sorry. There are some problems with adopting here but I seriously doubt people leave the country because of the "issues" we have here. It's because they want that newborn light complected baby and they are hard to come by here. There are pleny of newborns here who have no family who will fight for them. You just have to be willing to take what we have to offer.

Obviousely Madonna had no problem with the child's skin color but I do believe she has an underlying reason for adopting him. Even if only for the recognition.

cameragirl21 replied: Brenda, i want to ask you to thank your sister for me for what she did...i was born in the USSR and while i was considered an outsider in my country for being a Jew i still feel strongly about people adopting from Russia and what your sister did is not only admirable, she literally saved a child's life!
the child she adopted is very lucky, i've seen what those orphanages look like and i've seen the children that grow up in them and there really are no words to describe what your sister did for that child.
she is a wonderful person.

Crystalina replied:
Whoa Whoa Whoa! I did not start this for a debate. I go to debate boards so I would have went there. My opinions on international adoptions are just that. My opinion. I'm not asking anyone to change their mind about it and I'm sure I won't change mine. So really there is no debate.

As for a waiting list for where she adopted. There is and she says she has been on the list and has been dealing with this for a year now. The press just didn't get wind of it until it's ending.

stella6979 replied:
I can understand wanting the children to "match". It makes it easier for the children when they have someone in the family they can identify themselves with. As for people wanting to adopt beautiful babies, that's not true at all. Most couples don't even see the children that have been chosen for them until after an agency has matched them with a baby. It's not like they can pick and choose which child they want. Both my Korean cousins had major issues when they were born but that didn't stop my Aunt and Uncle from wanting them and loving them.

Jamison'smama replied:
Yikes, I am certain there are many reasons people make the choices they make. You can't make a blanket statement as to why people choose to adopt from where they do and not expect some disagreement. Actually African American children are easier to place than bi-racial children in this country--well at least the statistcs from few years back--I haven't practiced in the area for a while. In our particular family situation the child was 7 years old when adopted from Russia.

The only reason I made the statement about the lack of wait-list is because on The View (my source of news ) Rosie stated that there was not a waiting list there--it's just not a popular choice.

Crystalina replied:
The few people that I know who have been adopted or have adopted have been able to choose. They don't have the kids lined up in front of them but they do get pictures and background on the child that may fit with what they are looking for.

And as for children being "saved" from other countrys that sounds real nice but are kids treated any better here? They should be yes, but sadly they aren't. There are many foster kids who are mistreated every day because they are only being kept for the money that comes along with them. Here in Ohio there is a case of parents keeping their kids in cages at night. How is this any differant? There is also a case (not sure which state) of a little girl in foster care (who has been there since birth) has come up missing. The caseworker has made notes about the child being well and doing fine and then they find out that the child has been missing for about a year. IMO people think they are saving children from other countrys and that the children here will be fine because of the nation they live in. I agree that because they live here they should be safer, less hungry and healthier. That is not true though.

cameragirl21 replied: for me personally, i think that kids are kids and that they need love, a home and a family no matter what color they are or what nation they were born into.
i think anyone who adopts a child to give him/her a home is doing an admirable thing whether they go through the US system or fly to Russia or China or Ethiopia or wherever to pick them up and take them home.
i think there are plenty of kids in the US who need homes but the system really needs to be revamped because it is a hard and lengthy process and it really is much easier just to get on a plane to Moscow and come home with a baby. that's not to say there aren't any snags because as i've mentioned here before, my gs's mom's friend Michelle has been struggling a long time to get a baby from Russia but she specifically wants a girl who's under a year old so naturally that complicates things.
the important thing is you're saving a child's life and that is wonderful no matter what nation you do it in.

Crystalina replied:
Well, my "blanketed statement" was not made until after people took the thread away from the original post. And I never once said that people could not disagree with what I said. I have said this is my opinion on the matter. My thread was about Madonnas adoption and what she should have done with her money, IMO, since the father was still in the picture. If people wish to dwell on a statement I made about what I believe then maybe a seperate thread should be opened up on the matter. Either way, these are not beliefs that I all of a sudden woke up with this morning and I really doubt that they will be changed here on PC. Like I said, I know a woman who has adopted twice from China, her daughters are to die for and little angels and she is a great mother. Just because I don't agree with her leaving to get her daughters does not mean I like her any less. I just don't agree with that particular descision. My dislike didn't stop her in anyway though because she is her own person.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I agree Crystal with your sentiment about out of this country adoptions...I do not believe you were putting people down who go out of this nation to adopt just expressing a valid point that we have hundreds of thousands of kids here who need good homes....At least that is how I took it. On the flip side of the issue is the type of children who are ready to be adopted or placed in waiting homes The amount of abuse that is allowed to slip by before parental rights are terminated is disgusting! Believe me I looked into adoption when we did not think we would be blessed enough to concieve. Here in Texas you can have a child in your home for a year before the parents can have their rights revoked and then they have up to 6 more months (a total of 18 months if they ask for it) to go to parenting classes and then you the stable home and loving family may (and many do) lose the child they have come to love as their own...I understand desire to have a child in your home and in the cases I was presented I truly saw the pain that could have been caused to a mommy like me if I had been placed with a child (many who are so sickeningly abused) only to have the abuser take a class and get MY child back I think sweeping reform in our child abuse laws-ie. You abuse ONE time and you are no longer in charge of the child Is really the only way that the kids here at home will ever be adopted with out the worry that comes to so many perspective parents,until the laws change to protect the kids and the families who want them International adoption will continue and probably even increase... Sorry to ITA with your thoughts about Madonna but I probably should not go there Kids from 3rd world countries seem to be becoming the newest Louis on the arm of some celebs The only up side is at least one child is in a better home than some of the orphanages around the world

luvbug00 replied: I'm adopted and against international adoption period. That is all I'm gonna say.

coasterqueen replied: The only thing I'm going to say is I think it would be nice if we, as a country, focused on what to do to re-vamp our adoption system. It's so sad that our system is like this and we can't even help out our own. I think those going international aren't helping make our system better, though. Why? I guess for me it's because those, like Madonna, have the money to help out. I mean, look at Sharon Stone. She manages to adopt here in the states. I know it's a horrible and lengthy process here, but it is going to continue to be until we make the difference and going around the system and outside of it only shows we don't care enough about the system to try to make it better.

Now I know I haven't had to look into adoption, I've been truly blessed, I know. I may feel differently if I had to. I think my feelings that I have are more towards the celebrities that could make a difference here first, which should be a priority. Look at Angelina Jolie. It's nice and all that she wants to help out in other countries, but why is she ignoring her own? What does that say about us? That we always help out everyone else and leave our own to live in misery?

I don't know. It's not a clear cut situation where I can be on one side or another, I guess.

cameragirl21 replied: well, Karen, i don't think it's just an issue of money, there's also the fact that our laws heavily favor biological mothers, no matter their circumstances.
I'm from Toledo, OH, close to Detroit and i remember the case of Jessica DeBoer in Ann Arbor, Michigan and i still remember seeing her on the news, bawling, screaming for her parents and thrashing when she was taken from the only parents she's ever known (her adoptive family) and handed over to strangers who happened to be responsible for the blood coursing through her veins. Didn't matter that her biological mother knowingly listed the wrong father on the birth certificate and thereby made the adoption null and void because of her lie. Didn't matter that the biological father had 2 other children out of wedlock that he abandoned and wanted absolutely nothing to do with. Didn't matter that the DeBoers had been exceptional parents to the girl. none of it mattered.
There as also the case of Baby Richard in Chicago where the biological mother never told the father she was pregnant with his child and then gave him up for adoption. She never wanted the child back but when the dad found out, he did. There was a court battle and the last thing Baby Richard (who btw was about 4 years old at the time) said to his adoptive parents and brother was, "i'll be good, don't make me leave, i'll be good."
and guess what--Baby Richard's biological mother walked out on him after they got him back b/c she never wanted him, the dad talked her into joining the battle and then after the dad saw what it was like to raise a child alone, he wanted out too.
When i heard about these two cases and followed them on the news i swore up and down that i'd never NEVER adopt a child in the US unless there are unusual circumstances, like if the biological parents passed way and thereby can't come back to claim the child. who needs to go through that kind of insanity? no way no how would i ever under any circumstances let someone come and take my child away. Ever.
And no amount of money, not from Angelina Jolie or Madonna or whomever can change these laws.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:


I think the woes of the orphanages in Korea and China,Thialand,Russia,etc have been so widely published and touted on the news and in magazines that it is almost shi-shi to rescue a child form those horrible places (I am speaking about shi-shi for celebs-I have already stated my opinion on regular parents) One thing that holds true in this nation is the unwillingness to acknowledge the nasty truths of our society....You don't have to go to Russia or China to see starving children or children sold as slaves-It can be and is found in every town USA But in order to correct that-we as a whole would have to be willing to look in the face of the guy nextdoor and realize that some of the things that bring such disgust to most parents is right under our noses....It is not something that most people want to think about-it is much easier to pass of such horrifing things on those other countries and rescue the children from there....I think that was really Crystal's point in the OP......

Crystalina replied:
I think you said it well. Maybe if I were in the "desperate to be a mother" mode I would go where it was easier and faster. But it took dh and I 10 yrs before our first child came along and in that time we looked very heavily into fostering before making the jump into adoption. Our house did not pass inspection because at the time the house we lived in had the bathroom off of the kitchen. That was not allowed. It was an older house and the foundation needed to be redone before we could add on another bathroom. The house wasn't worth the money it would have taken to redo everything for another bathroom. In the meantime I got pg so abandoned the fostering. DH and I would never have dreamed of going outside of our country to adopt (although yes, a child is a child and they cannot help where they live). We were told here in our area that we would only be able to foster darker children (her words) and that didn't phase us at all. We didn't care. We still plan on either adopting or fostering later but honestly we will have to see how things work out with time.

Crystalina replied:

Yes, it was.

coasterqueen replied:
No doubt, I agree that it is horrible what people have to go through, adoptive parents and the children. I could never discount that. I know we all feel powerless like we can't help change the system, but we can try. I'm guilty of not trying, I know this and will admit it. All it takes is forming a group of people, getting letters out to our legislators (state and federal) until they get so sick of hearing from us that their hands are forced to deal with the situation.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why there aren't laws being put on the books to make the system better. Is it not enough finances for the states to adhere to the laws so lawmakers don't make them? I honestly do not know, makes me want to know.

I just think the whole thing is just not clear cut. IMO celebs money can make a difference. They are heard more at the federal level at hearings and such about what they feel very passionate about. How much money do you think Angelina Jolie pours into trying to make everyone see the issues in other countries? There are numerous celebs who do this, but yet they don't do it in their own country.

cameragirl21 replied: well, i can tell you that there was an outpouring of letters and lobbying on behalf of both Jessica and Richard and the Jessica case went as far as the US Supreme Court. There was no lack of group effort and there was literally lobbying in the state capitol.
however, bear in mind that for everyone who thinks like us, there is a person who thinks that adoptive parents should have little or no rights...in fact, there is a group out there that says that adoptive parents should really only be considered foster parents and should be ready to hand the child back at any age and any time for any reason or for no reason.
i agree with you that the system must change but the point i'm trying to make is that there have been plenty of serious attempts and still nothing's changed.

Crystalina replied:
No doubt. People like her get rich from this country and then become Ambassoders to other countries. Which is great. They need her and I really commend her and others like her who want to build schools there and educate or help with medical supplies but where is her loyalty here? Why not help them with what she can and adopt a child from here and then raise that child to help others as well. I'm sure there are things they do to help those here like during Katrina but when it comes to adopting a child they should raise an American child to help America (and others if they can). Angelina and others like her would not be able to help those countries if it weren't for us buying tickets to her movies. When I say her I don't mean just her but all celebrities. Why not make a movie and only show it over in that country and see how much cash it brings in.