Keeping with the spiritual theme... - Kind of touchy, but I'd like to ask-

ashtonsmama wrote: I know this is a very tragic and sad subject, maybe too much so for some, so please forgive me if it offends you...I hope it doesn't...but I've always wondered about this, no one (no youth pastor or anyone) could ever really give me a clear answer on this, and I'm wondering what you all think/believe.

Thanks.

Crystalina replied: I believe they do not go to heaven but they do not go to hell either. I believe that you are then reborn until they live out there life the way they should.

Edward's Mommy replied: No I don't believe people how commit suicide go to Heaven because they can't ask God for forgiveness.

ashtonsmama replied:
That's sort of what I think too-

Boy, we're sure all on a roll today with all the spiritual posts!

It's interesting to talk about I think...

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I believe that it depends on what they believed-if they had accepted Jesus then yes I believe that they go to Heaven. I do not pretend to understand the forgiveness that God extends to us. I will be very honest in saying that sometimes I get irritated when I hear people who have done horrible things here on earth making a death bed conversion. But the Bible says ALL have sinned and fall short...so I am not the one to judge!

The Bible also says that we will be surprised by the people who are there as well as the ones who are not.....I do believe however that there are some things which are not forgiven-BUT that is a whole other thread!

Crystalina replied:
Yes, I think it's very interesting to talk about. DH said (when I posted about evolution and creation) "I wouldn't post that because that's a fast way to start an argument. Religion and politics never bring them up." I wasn't worried about starting one (I wasn't trying to) but I figured if someone is going to argue over a thread then they WANT to argue. Everyone has their opinions and so far everyone has been able to express them without anyone getting irate. Some boards aren't like that.

luvmykids replied:
ITA, almost My personal belief is that the only unforgivable sin is denying God, so as long as you've accepted Him you don't have to "ask" forgiveness between committing a sin and dying to avoid hell. If someone is a Christian but tells a lie and is hit by a bus they're going to hell? Not according to what I believe, therefore someone who has accepted Jesus but still commits suicide is not going to hell based on the fact they couldn't ask forgiveness. Just my personal belief, the act of suicide is not damnation but where your heart stands when it happens could be.

ashtonsmama replied:

I agree, some boards I have been on have been really out of control and not respectful at all of other people's beliefs and backgrounds, so I'm so happy that it can be openly talked about here!

You girls are great!

ashtonsmama replied: ITA with what you said also, Monica.

my2monkeyboys replied: I agree with you, luvmykids. (Sorry, I don't know your name )
I think you are saved when you accept Jesus as your savior, and that everyone sins. If you have to ask forgiveness after every sin you commit, you'd spend half your day do that. I think God's love and grace are more than sufficient to cover suicide. I believe that when someone does that, their mind is in a state of total confusion and hopelessness. Just recently a close friend of my husband attempted suicide. He is in a vegetative state, and they do not know what to expect. He has bi-polar disorder, and he was on new medications. Obviously they didn't work so well. How can one's soul depend on a medicine that may fail? I know not all suicide victims are bi-polar, but I do think that once you get to that point, there is something wrong mentally. Normally people don't do that if that just have a case of the blues, kwim?
At the same time though, I don't think that just because you commit suicide that you go to heaven. I think the key is Jesus Christ.
Sorry for the long post, but this really stirs me as I have been rather close to 4 different people who've done this, and 2 more who earnestly tried but didn't succeed.

luvmykids replied:
Beautifully said. I'm sorry for your losses

ilovemybaby replied: I really don't know.

CosmetologyMommy replied: my personal opinion is if they were truly mentally sick then they will go to heaven.

MM'sMama replied:
I have never really thought about it before but I like that way of looking at it.

Celestrina replied:
I agree. God does not hold a disease against someone.

luvmykids replied:
I also agree with that, the way I believe it is a conscious decision to reject God that gets you in trouble, which is why I also believe babies go to heaven baptised or not.

A&A'smommy replied: I have no idea but I hope so... I know several people who have lost very close loved ones to suicide and it absolutly breaks my heart to think they may be somewhere else

CAMSMOM1 replied:

ITA with Abbie & Monica on this.
I had a close friend in High School who committed suicide. He was manic depressant, and had gotten off of his medication when he used a gun on himself. I had grown up with him, and we attended the same church together. From what I know, he did accept Jesus into his heart, and at the time of his suicide he was suffering from a mental illness. In my heart, I believe he is with the Lord. (not wishful thinking, but based on his relationship with the Lord).
We are not perfect people. And like someone said, if we had to ask for forgiveness after after white lie, or sin we commit through out the day, we'd spend the entire day repenting. I believe repenting, or asking for forgiveness is based on your heart, and your relationship with the Lord.
As Paul said in the book of Romans, "Why do I do the things I know I shouldn't, and don't do the things I know I should?" "For we ALL fall short of the glory of God, and we have ALL sinned." Once we believe in our heart, and confess with our mouth, that Jesus is Lord, our name is written in the book of Life.
One sin is equal to another sin. For all are like filthy rags to the Lord. But it's our heart, and our faith that comes into play with salvation, and heaven.Not that we are good people, or we haven't committed crimes...but salvation is based on accepting Christ and his forgiveness on the cross. You can't EARN your way to heaven, it is only through accepting Christ that we get there.
So if a person tells a lie and gets in a car accident, without asking God for fogiveness, he would still go to heaven if he is born again. Same to the person who commits suicide from a mental illness, if he is born again Christian. Like Abbie said, I'm not the judge of man. No one could be. But one day we will all stand face to face with our maker, and he will be the final judge.
We are never promised tomorrow, and the Bible says, "Today is the day of Salvation,"says the Lord. We have a choice, "Life or death" "Blessings or cursings".
Like the Word says, every man knows in his heart that there is a Creator. And we have a choice, to choose Him or not. And only you can make that choice.

Brias3 replied: I honestly don't know my answer to this one. However, this does spur me to think....in what terms are sins "forgivable"? For example, if someone goes and brutally murders 20 people and then is sitting in jail and decides, I'm a believer, is he/she saved? Yes, we are ALL sinners, but is there such a thing as certain sins being too "bad"? I don't to open a can of worms here at all or start a completely new train of thought, I'm just finding myself wondering about all of this in the same thought.

What I do believe is that if you accept Christ into your heart and accept him as our Savior and live your life in the goal of being a good servant of the Lord, then you will be saved.

Brias3 replied: BTW, in addition to the original post by Ashton'sMama, I too have asked a pastor about such questions and wasn't able to get a clear answer at all. The suicide of a friend of mine's mother a few years back is what spurred my questions. In actuality, I suppose not even a priest may be able to answer this. After all, the truth of the matter is that we really DON'T know how God judges our sins. What we do know is that he sacrificed his Son so that if we believe, we CAN have that eternal life.

CAMSMOM1 replied:

Hopefully I can try to answer you question. (with my own beliefs) I think of Paul in the Bible. His name used to be Saul and he was a persecutor of Christians and killed many of them. And then he had an encounter with God, and repented, and became a believer in God. He was later named Paul, who wrote the book of Romans, and many others. If someone like Paul, that killed Christians, could be a disciple of Jesus, and be forgiven, then yes...a murder can be forgiven if he repents with his heart, turns from his ways, and follows Christ. Paul used his past as an example of God forgiveness and compassion. No of us deserve to be forgiven, for we all have done some horrible things. But God is so mericiful and loves us so much, that he sent his son Jesus to take our place, on the cross.

luvmykids replied:
I agree, and think it's not just a matter of making the statement but where the heart lies while doing so. And since, IMO, God is the only one who can truly know a persons heart, it doesn't matter if I believe they meant it or not, only that God knows if they did or didn't and the intentions behind it and they will be judged accordingly.

CAMSMOM1 replied:

I agree It's the matter of the heart. It says, "If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, he will forgive you of your sins."

Nina J replied: Yes, I think people who commit suicide go to Heaven. People suffer, and they turn to the only resort they think they have. Jesus Christ is not going to deny them for suffering, or being so terribly sad and lonely that they took there own life.

My grandfather had a terminal illness. He didn't want to live the rest of his life in agony, so he took his own life. I know Jesus recieved him and he is with the Lord now.

EvesMom replied: It is my understanding that Jesus is our savior, that he gave his life for the forgiveness of ALL of our sins(The Ransom). The final judgement will be what truely decides if you will go to heaven (the lord's kingdom, world to come, or what have you), or hell (dependind on your beliefs). I can not see how some sins are forgivable and some are not. And I have yet to read that suicides go to hell in the bible.
I would never scorn anyone for what they believe or don't believe, this is just what I think, and I enjoy learning other views as well.

luvbug00 replied: I think it depends really. it depends on their lives before their suiside. I think somone who kills themselfs is truely lost and I don't believe God would deny them heaven because they were lost and sad if anything that's more reason fo rthem to go to heaven to be with God and have him there to bring them peace.

~Roo'sMama~ replied:
I agree with the both of you.

ashtonsmama replied: ITA with pretty much all you have said....it all makes sense to me and just feels right...KWIM?
It is a hard subject, but I've heard so many different opinions that I just got confused as to what I really thought-so it's nice to hear what you all believe and think...
Thanks.

redchief replied: There are those that say, "So long as Jesus has been accepted as your Savior, you are saved."

So, a Muslim who kills himself can not go to heaven?

How about a Muslim who spends her life easing the suffering and pain of others? Is she destined to be banned to another place because she has not accepted the mantle of Jesus Christ as her savior, regardless of how good she was in life? It would hardly seem a fair an loving God who would allow that to happen.

To the question of whether a soul who has committed suicide goes to heaven, first we must analyze what caused that person to take his life. Chirst himself, as man, had to endure the hatred of most of his people, the knowledge that he would be put to death, the betrayal of a good friend and the loss of faith, on several occasions, of the people closest to him. Yet he persevered, for his purpose was much greater than any of these things. That leads us to the question of all of our purposes on earth. Why are we here? Why has God placed us on earth, if not to learn what is expected of us to gain salvation?

As Christians, we're expected to not only accept Christ in our lives, but to do all we can to model our own lives after his. Jesus didn't need to come to earth to clear the way for us into heaven. As God, he could have done that with but a thought. Jesus came to offer salvation to us by giving us an example of how God wants us to live. God gave us the commandments, and on several occasions, Jesus expanded upon them, so that we could understand what the Father wants of us.

We also know that you can not enter heaven with mortal sin on your soul. The taking of a human life, when not in defense of the self or others is a mortal sin, regardless of whose life it is that is taken. Therefore no one who takes his own life can go directly to heaven.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I agree with you on every point but this, Ed. It does not matter how 'good' of a person you have been on earth, being 'good' will not get you into heaven any faster. No one (IMO) can do enough 'good' works to get there.

redchief replied:
I believe that opinion is dead wrong.

luvbug00 replied: I truely respect everyones beliefs here as far as getting into heaven.

I have to say in my head what Ed has said makes perfect sence to me. Oye, this is why I don't have a real religous grasp. I find so many things from so may religons conflicting.

gr33n3y3z replied: Its not up to me to answer that question only one person can
I'm not judging ppl. to which direction they should go

luvmykids replied:
I would only say to that one thing: If you believe the Bible, IMHO, you have to take it all or nothing, you can't pick and choose which parts you believe and which you don't. So, for my personal belief, the Bible says the only way is to do just that, to accept Jesus as your Saviour and that works alone are not enough. Yes, He is a fair and loving God and because He is fair He has given us the option, choose Him or don't. And because He is fair, the "benefits" to all who make the choice are the same for all who do, as are the "consequences" for all who do not.

(Not directed at anyone, I quoted that because it's the statement that made me think of that)

redchief replied:
Agreed, the all of the Bible is inspired (though, in fairness I must say we are talking about different Bibles). It is also written: "many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’" (Matt. 7:22–23).

To me and the Catholic Church, you can indeed accept Jesus as Son of God and still not gain heaven. It also proves that one's state of mind and action in life and upon death, matters at judgement.

luvmykids replied:
Well it's hard to pick just one but I'll use this one: John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son in order to judge but that the world might find salvation. He who believes in Him is not judged; but he who does not believe is judged already." (Sorry, I don't have my Bible handy thats from memory so I may have left out a preposition or something lol)

ITA that works affect your "standing" so to speak, when your judgement day comes, and are also important on earth as we are commanded to bear fruit, follow the commandments, oh a whole host of reasons, etc. but just don't believe they determine your entrance to Heaven.

Now, I don't mean that just because at some point someone accepts Jesus they have free reign after, ITA that the state of mind, or in my mind, state of the heart, at death comes into play greatly.


Why did I get back on here, I'm supposed to be buying a sprinkler head right about now but I knew Ed would have said something since last time I viewed this post

luvmykids replied: AND let me add, I'm not arguing anyones beliefs or trying to convince anyone, just trying to explain mine.

redchief replied:
This is the most fun I've had debating theology in a long time. Most of the time people get their backs all up. I'm assuming when you say "works" you mean doing good. I don't call it that, instead seeing each day and each decision as part of who we become and who we will be judged as. I also think that repentence has a profound effect on our judgement.

For not having your Bible, you did a wonderful job of quoting that passage!!! You got it almost verbatim. Those words were spoken to Nicodemus, a Pharisee who was questioning Jesus on heaven and how to get there. Those words didn't contain the promise of heaven, but the way to get there. Jesus also told Nicodemus that his closed mind would preclude his understanding of heaven. It was actually quite a jab at a very important religeous leader.

Jesus also went on to say in that same session that many people would ignore his message... (John 13:19-21) And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

According to Catholic teaching, this not only means we will be judged at the end of our lives, but are being judged in an ongoing way, every day.

edited for spelling, grammar, and an anecdote.

Kirstenmumof3 replied: As someone who has attempted suicide a few times and survived. I do not believe that when I die I will go to heaven. I believe that I will spend the rest of my life waundering like pergatory (sp?). I have tried to ask God for forgiveness, but I don't think he can forgive me, because I cannot forgive myself.

ashtonsmama replied: I just read all of your replies-all of you have good points, it's fun to read you two going back and forth, Ed and Monica!

You are both making excellent points-and I agree with most of what you both have been talking about...

Continue!
It's fun reading what you all have to say!

redchief replied:
Oh Kirsten, you must forgive yourself! I know it's difficult to believe that you could ever be whole after writing yourself off, but that's the whole point in growing and maturing. Every day is a day of learning and being and mistakes and triumphs. You of all of us know, especially now, how precious life is, and perhaps that is why you feel so strongly that you are beyond forgiveness.

I don't see it that way, though. I think that because of all you have been through, you can talk better to people about what it is have seen the depths of despair and recovered. You have become a strong and caring person. A mother all of these mothers would be proud of. Now you only need to forgive yourself your weaknesses of the past so that your soul can be as whole as your humanity has become. God has already given you fogiveness and challenges beyond any I have ever faced. You need to see your inner strength for what it is, and allow that the mistakes of your past don't need to carry your future.

kimberley replied:
you are wrong Kirsten. i have been down the same road you have and God does have forgiveness in his heart if we allow Him in. please don't condemn yourself to eternal pergatory because He doesn't.

focus on why we didn't succeed... He saw a greater good in us to keep us here and our faith stopped us from death. does that make sense????? you need to forgive yourself. re-read that post you made about what we have taught you.. you are a good mom, wife and person all around. of course He wants you in heaven!

ashtonsmama replied:
I believe that God is capable of forgiving everyone-I won't go into specifics, because I could talk forever and I'm not good at explaining Biblical things, but I believe that if you're truly doing your best and you want God's forgiveness, He will forgive you, Kirsten. You aren't responsible fully for your actions with thoughts like that, chemical imbalances in your brain are NOT your fault, and even though the act of attempting suicide is I guess a sin, I think that the thoughts that go through your brain aren't. KWIM? I'm not making any sense, am I. Sorry Kirsten.

The main point I'm trying to get across is the fact that HE loves you, HE would do anything for you, and HE will always be willing to forgive. You ARE perfect in His eyes, He made you as His daughter, and you will always be His. I hope you know that no matter what you've done in the past, even things you can't forgive yourself for, He has already forgiven you, even before you asked Him.


He's pretty amazing. I hope that someday you can see that He will always forgive and love you, no matter what you do.


ETA: Sorry Kirsten! I spelled your name wrong!

ashtonsmama replied: I'm with Ed and Kimberley too! Just wanted to add! Kirsten, please take all this to heart...we love you, and God's never ending love for you is a BILLION TRILLION times that amount. And THAT'S alot!

Kirstenmumof3 replied: Once again you all amaze me. I guess I'm not ready yet to forgive myself. But I understand what you are all saying. Thank You!

luvmykids replied:
I'm glad you're having fun, I'm chewing my nails wondering what you'll throw at me next

I completely agree with you in a roundabout way, I suppose ... I agree that our final judgement is based on many factors, including (but not limited to) our daily choices and decisions, how well we have carried out our instructions as servants, what we have done in His name and as representatives of Him, the good, bad and the ugly of who we are in Christ.

However my belief is that regardless of how "good" you, your life, your choices, etc are, those things alone do not gain you entrance to heaven. On the other side of the coin, not just mumbling "lskfjf o jsskdhf fj fs jf gimme salvation I believe in God lskafwjef" does either.


Soooo.... no, that specific scripture does not promise Heaven, only a way to get there, but the many intertwining references between Heaven, eternal life, seeing the Throne, and meeting the Lord face to face are tied to receiving salvation. "Whoever acknowledges and confesses Me before men, I will also acknowledge Him before my Father in Heaven ... whoever denies Me before men I will also deny him before my Father in Heaven" (somewhere in Matthew, guess I need to go get my Bible now?) and John 14:6 "I am the Way the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by Me" and Romans says somewhere "If you acknowledge with your lips and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe you will be saved" and Galations also says specifically that no one can by deeds or words be justified and brought to right standing with God.

So what was the original question?

ashtonsmama replied:
Some day, it'll hit you-and you'll finally realize that in order to move on, and fully enjoy life, you've got to do just that...but until then, we love you and just try to rely on the thought that God indeed does too!

ashtonsmama replied:
You two are good! Keep it up!

redchief replied: We seem to agree on most points allowing for differences in biblical translation and symantics. The only thing the Church says differently is that since all humans are children of God, that God wouldn't isolate his children who by ignorance or lack of education, have not been revealed the divinity of Christ.

luvmykids replied:
ITA with you on that one. It's the conscious choice to turn away from God, those who have not been presented the opportunity (so to speak for lack of better terminology) are not punished for that.

Heather77 replied: I don't know....

mainly b/c I'm not sure there even is a Heaven. From what I understand of "God" though, I would think they would be allowed in. Isn't He accepting and forgiving?

ilovemybaby replied: My original reply to this was that I really don't know. Because I don't. Only God does.

But the reason why I can't say yes is that somewhere in the Bible it says that God won't put us through more testing than we can handle. And some of you will know about all the suffering Job had.
To me that is saying that whatever we endure in our lives on Earth we "can" handle but sometimes we really believe we can't. My sister has attempted suicide and thankfully lived.
Also God put us on this earth. He gave us life. Unless we are murdered or die naturally or of some disease or illness, shouldn't it be up to God to decide when we leave the Earth? I don't know... that's just how I always thought he'd see it. He gave me life. I can't take my life.
I have been suicidal many times and I think the fear of not going to Heaven if I kill myself has been what has kept me here. As well as not wanting to hurt/leave my family and friends. Things have changed too since I had Abby. I don't think I could ever go through with it now. But then, I'm not suffering from severe depression unmedicated/untreated. If I was, I guess I could do it.

I'm definitely not judging anyone here and I don't want anyone to feel badly. I've been there myself many times.
I just don't know what to believe. I have had so many Christians tell me that suicide is selfish and the easy way out and that I would go to Hell if I did that. So I get Christians saying that I would go to Hell and then others that believe if I am saved and am mentally sick that they think I would go to Heaven...
That's why I say I really don't know. Personally I hope I never get to a point where I choose to end my life.