Just a little concerned - about another post

jcc64 wrote: I see Rocky locked down the thread about the Babywise methods, but tbh, what I read really freaked me out. I'm not looking to continue the fight, but some of the methods were beyond deeply disturbing, based on well established and researched information regarding age appropriate behaviour during typical child development. To deny a hungry infant necessary sustenance and/or contact just to establish dominance is bordering on cruelty, imo. Everyone has a right to parent according to their own moral and religious beliefs, but paramount to that is basic minimal care to which a child is not only entitled but requires to thrive and grow. Kids don't drop food out of the high chair because they're toying with you- they do it to experiment with the ideas of causality and small motor exploration. Babies don't cry to manipulate their parents, particularly very young ones- they cry because well, we all know the reasons that they cry- they aren't able to meet their own needs for a very long time. If you had to sit in a dirty wet diaper, I suspect you'd be making some noise about it as well. If you were cold or afraid, you'd hope that your loved ones would come to you in a timely way, I really don't think a baby can understand the needs of married people in any meaningful way.
What they may come to understand is that they cannot rely on their parents- and interrupting critical bonds of trust from forming may dely or prevent vital connections in the brain from developing. What you risk are attachment disorders later in life- and they are pretty hard to reverse once established. Yes, the child may become quiet and compliant, yes, you may get the least interruption to your routines, but it's only because he's given up on you, and I guess I don't understand that any parent would ever want that.
Disclaimer- I am not criticizing ANYONE HERE. I have never even heard of this before today, and I don't have a clue who believes in it here, nor do I care. I am challenging what I see as some pretty blatant misinformation presented as a viable parenting method, period.

mummy2girls replied: i totally agree with what your saying but the way the response was from that other member was cruel. she could of said it in a more mature way like you have said above. but it was locked because of that respose...as there are better ways of being tact.

DansMom replied: I agree with you too, Jeanne---those techniques disturb me a great deal. I think you voiced very well what makes them disturbing, without shaming anyone.

lisar replied: Well I totally missed the entire thread. I am gona go read it now if I can find it.

jcc64 replied: Thanks, guys. Yeah, I get that the other response was well, hostile- and believe me, that is not my intention here. I just think where babies are concerned, it's critical not to misinform people about basic necessities.

lisar replied: I cant find the original post. Can someone please post me a link to it. I really wanna read it.

Thanks anyone who can

Jamison'smama replied: The original post was moved temporarily. The post just mentioned the book Babywise. The inappropriate response was deleted so you didn't miss much.

I am also with Jeanne on this one. I do know of the book, I have read some of it, it is similar to the series that goes on in many churches called Growing Kids God's Way (or something very similar). It is parent-led parenting to an extreme. Since the original book came out, even the writer Ezzo (?), has changed some of his views about CIO stating it is not right for all kids. I would have to search to find that info though.

MommyToAshley replied: I don't know anything about the book, but I personally don't agree with CIO so I probably wouldn't agree with the book. I know CIO works for some, but I couldn't do it myself. Although I don't agree, I try not to judge others for their parenting style.

But, it sounds like you are talking about even more extreme measures that withhold feeding, holding, and other basic needs... or am I reading that wrong? If that is what you are referring to, then I completely agree with your comments Jeanne and I am concerned for the well-being of those children. Wow... it's nice to be on the same side of an issue with you for once. As always, thank you for making logical points about a specific topic without attacking anyone.

A&A'smommy replied: I TOTALLY agree with you.. do not agree with CIO I couldn't do it and I don't see how any can because to hear your child cry it hits something deep inside I just couldn't have taken it. I was always running to her aid as soon as Alyssa started to fuss just a little bit if I wasn't already there... anyway I try not to read post like that if I can get away with it.

jcc64 replied:


You're reading it right, Dee Dee. And fwiw, we're on the same side more often than you think, you goofball, especially where kids are concerned (and what's more important than that anyway?!)

Boo&BugsMom replied: I guess I'm on the other side of the fence. I've known many people who use BabyWise and have had so much success with it. I'm more in between. I'm a CIO mom and because of it I have a wonderfully sleep-happy well-adjusted boy. When they are tiny newborn babies, it's a bit different in my opinion, but once they reach a certain age, I get tough.

PrairieMom replied: I think that at the end of the day all us moms are trying to do the best job we can for our children, using what ever methods work best for us and our families. No one sets out to be damaging to their children. What works for one family isn't necessarily what works for another. We also have to remember that what information we receive, either here or elsewhere is merely a suggestion, and we have to use our brains and common sense to know if it is right for us.
We all deserve pats on the backs.

MommyToAshley replied:
I agree with you completely. I think most parents don't want to hurt their children ... in fact most have the complete opposite in mind. And, the point of Jeanne's post was not to be judgemental, but to point out that there may be some misconceptions and misinformation in this book. I did a lot of research on CIO when everyone kept tyring to push me into trying it, and there are studies that show the long term effects of CIO. (I have kept that information to myself and not posted about it as I don't like to start controversy and I know CIO is widely accepted). But, you can not deny the long term effects of withholding basic needs from a child. I think Jeanne simply wanted to put this information out there for those who only read the positive review of the Babywise book. At least that is what I got out of the post... no one was saying that anyone was a bad parent or wanted to harm their child.

jcc64 replied: This is wayyyyyy beyond CIO, which past a certain age, I don't consider to be inappropriate, though I don't personally have the stomach for it that I once did. ( I did use CIO when my now 14 yo was about 5 months, but tbh, always felt guilty about it and gradually moved away from it more and more with each kid- which is why my 4 yo will probably be in my bed until she graduates from college. ) But I digress.
This rigid, "the schedule is supreme" method encourages people to delay feedings and avoid holding/nurturing infants on an as- needed basis, in a misguided (imo) attempt to establish firm parental authority and supremacy from day 1. The link was on the locked thread- but here it is again:
http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/101.htm

jcc64 replied: And thanks for better articulating what the true intentions are of my post, Dee Dee.

C&K*s Mommie replied: wow! I've never heard "supreme schedule" with infants until today.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Has anyone else here met another parent or their children who used BabyWise? Just curious. I have, which is why I don't have anything negative to say about it. Of course, with any book or "opinion" (which is what all/most books are anyways...opinions) from others, you should always use your own judgement and common sense. It's the people who take every tiny thing so literal in every book and don't use their own common sense along with it that cause disaster.

luvmykids replied: I missed the other thread as well but just wanted to say I used Babywise as a starting point and when I recommend it to others I always add that you have to use common sense and modify it....I don't necessarily believe any one book is the be all, end all to any aspect of parenting but IMHO that particular book did have some information that was helpful to me. None of my children were deprived in any area, I have pics of Colt a/k/a Michelin Man to prove it Most importantly they were not deprived of love and affection to any degree.

I'm not taking a defense, just wanted to say there are some good things about the book that get overlooked in the wake of it's controversy.



Jennie, I was posting at the same time as you LOL. We basically said the same thing.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Great minds think alike!

jcc64 replied: Hey Monica-
I am not challenging you in any way- and it does seem that the book enjoys a certain amount of popularity that given what I have read about it on the website, is sort of surprising to me. Would you (or anyone that used it) mind sharing your thoughts about what parts of it were helpful, useful to you?

Our Lil' Family replied: I used it because I like a schedule and I believe it helps infants and toddlers know what to expect and what is expected of them. I was not of the 80% (or whatever % it was) who was lucky enough to have a baby that slept through the night at 6 weeks. Although he only woke once a night he didn't sleep through until 5 months. Not until I was confident that he could go all night long did I let him CIO during the night. I think it's a good book and never felt that it led to deprivation of any kind.

ediep replied: wow, I missed the original post, but I just read a bit of the ezzo site...thats crazy... is that for real?

lisar replied: I just read that article on the book. The only thing I will say is the scheduled feeding I had to do that with Raygen to make sure she was gaining enough weight. If she didnt gain the weight required by her NICU Dr.'s then they were gona put her back in the NICU until she did. Once she made it to a standard weight it was a little diffrent. I dont agree with everything the article said though. I have never even heard of the book, so I am not up with the whole thing. I dont know anyone who has used it either. So if I read the book I might have a better/worse opinion on it. I dont really have one now due to the fact I have never read it.

luvmykids replied:
The biggest impact the book had for me was the helpful information for parents with multiples....I knew I was facing a challenge with twins and no help (DH worked out of town during the week and had to go back after the first week) and had no idea how to go about it with double feedings, one awake and one sleeping, etc. and trying to maintain my duties for our fledgling business. I needed a guide (and I use that loosely) to how to ease them into a schedule together where their feedings, naps, etc were staggered a little.

The other thing I liked about the book was just the basic idea, that you can "teach" a baby to fall asleep on their own. I knew, for me personally, that having to rock or swing or pace with them to sleep every night wouldn't work. I know that very theory is some of the controversy, however I'm not a fan of CIO in it's truest sense or the Ferber method or any of those ideals. The basic ideas in Babywise just seemed to me to be a gentler version of those things. I also, like Naomi said, liked the idea of a routine and set times for things. I just felt for us that we needed to know that if not immediately then someday meals were at set times, naps were at set times, etc.

I have to clarify again though, it does require common sense and judgement and modification. Of course I didn't let them go hungry for the sake of the schedule but the schedule was a goal to work towards; and of course I didn't refuse to pick them up and cuddle them for the sake of straying from the almighty principles of the book IMHO the book, or any for that matter, isn't all that practical for newborns, it wasn't until about 10 weeks when they were eating more and naturally sleeping for longer periods of time that any of it started to really make sense. That was when I felt comfortable using the book to "tweak" the times they were eating and sleeping.

It may be that I give the book too much credit and was just blessed with great babies who were natural sleepers, but in hindsight it was incredibly easy for us to fall into a schedule and I don't know if that would have been the case otherwise. Maybe I don't give myself enough credit and I would have figured the things I used out on my own

I hope I answered your question to some degree

cameragirl21 replied: i don't know about this, it's a tough call..what i read in the article Jeanne posted sounded rather frightening to me but i know sometimes parents have to employ certain methods for a reason.
for example, when i was born, my mom was told not to nurse me if i woke in the middle of the night and just to bottle feed me water. well it seems i never took to a bottle and was very big on nursing so as a result, by the time i was a week old, i was sleeping thru the night. also, since i was born in a third world country there were no paper diapers and my mom had a limited supply of cloth (six diapers in total) and no washing machine or dryer so she had to boil and iron every diaper and it seems i was filling them faster than she could clean them...i mean, can you imagine living on only six diapers and having to hand clean them and then letting the air dry. did i mention i was born in January in a very cold nation so there was no hanging them out on a clothes line and having them drying in just a couple hours or so. that said, my mom started potty training me at six months (as soon as i was sitting up with ease on my own) and had me fully potty trained for day and night by 12 months, which most experts will say is WAY too soon but my mom had few options--she worked full time and was pursuing her master's degree full time. and yet i'm still here to talk about these things and i think i turned out ok. but idk if i'd recommend either of these things to others because according to Freudian logic, both can cause problems, in theory.
i've studied developmental psychology extensively and there is a theory that says that when a baby cries and you can tell by the cry that it's not a hurt cry or something that requires urgent attention that you should let the baby cry for just a few minutes just to start teaching the baby that life is not so simple and that you don't always get what you want the second you want it because in all fairness, as we grow up we learn that we just don't get our needs met right away or at all in some cases. in that sense, i can see the logic but i don't agree with depriving a baby of basic needs just because it shows the baby who's in charge. the methods may work but for me i guess, i have an issue with the purpose intended...i see no point in having a power match with a brand new baby and going out of my way to make sure the baby understands that i'm the boss. and in all fairness, whether you agree with these tactics or not, that IS what Ezzo is trying to say, at least according to that article.
As for CIO, idk what i think of it, i can see the benefits and i've admonished friends of mine who still wake up every 2 hours with a 2 year old baby because they won't let the baby CIO. i don't see why a 2 year old baby needs to be fed every 2 hours at night, but i am open to the possibility that maybe i don't understand.
but keeping a 2 month old baby from eating when s/he is hungry just to put him/her on MY schedule is just not something i agree with.
JMO of course.

cameragirl21 replied:
you bring up an interesting point, Monica, obviously with twins you have much more of a challenge on your hands.
i meant to ask you if you, having both twins and a singleton found the twins to much more work than just one. i ask this because sometime back i ran into a woman with triplets and my first thought was that she probably never sleeps and yet she told me that they all sleep thru the night. and they were only 5 months old. obviously whether you have multiples or just one, you have to put a baby on some kind of schedule as far as sleeping goes because they may have their days and nights mixed up. so that makes sense.
i think to a certain extent though, when a baby is very tiny, you are to a certain degree stuck with whatever schedule works for their body and obviously when you have more than one they could all be on different schedules meaning you have to be awake and at their beck and call 24 hours a day.
so if you don't mind sharing, how did you get them both on the same schedule? i only ask this because as i've mentioned on the board before, i'm am absolutely fascinated by twins and multiples and i think you're very lucky to have them.

lovemy2 replied: WOW, I wondered where my post thanking Monica for guiding me to the book went - guess I know now.....

I feel somewhat responsible for this whole fiasco of CIO posts since I was the first to start it all, I was looking for advice on how to help Dylan GET to sleep and STAY asleep for more than 15 minutes without being held or in a swing, etc. He has reflux and I am VERY sensitive to that, I know all too well and also first hand (I have reflux) the pain it can cause when you lay a child down....that being said, Dylan being my child and me being there with him day in and day out I have been able to distinguish between him being in pain from being layed flat and doing some amount of crying to get himself to sleep. Dylan's case has been the latter....he is now at a point after doing this for two weeks (which I JUST read the Babywise over the past two days) that he goes down with VERY minimal fussing (which started out more as crying and is now down to fussing) if any at all to go to sleep - he is sleeping through the nite (was before I even started trying any type of CIO/Babywise or whatever you want to "label" it) He does on occasion wake at nite hungry and is DEFINATELY fed and he also has a couple of times woken and just needed some comforting which he DEFINATELY gets.......

As for the scheduled feeding - he is not breastfed and I do a combination of timing and hunger - which I also did before I even heard of this Babywise book - I have NEVER "held him off" to get him to conform to my schedule......

Now all this being said, I am neither defending myself nor am I judging anyone who demand feeds - all day, all nite, etc. I was looking for some guidance in helping Dylan learn how to comfort himself and get himself to sleep - unfortunately he is not a pacifier baby and is trying desperately to get his thumb which I am sure can start a whole other issue but in my mind if it helps him self soothe - go for it...Olivia sucked her thumb from 6 weeks on and NEVER had a single sleep issue.....

As Tara said, in the end everyone has their own style, I may not agree with yours, you may not agree with mine....but I will defend myself in this situation whether I need to or not because I do feel like people were being somewhat judgmental in these posts - maybe not specifically to me but in general - suggestions go a long way - opinions can be damaging....

So - that is all I have to say on this subject - I like this place but have some reservations about it after all of this has gone on - and I want everyone to know - my son is a very happy, healthy little 9 1/2 week old baby who smiles, coos, eats well and now sleeps well too....

TheOaf66 replied:
you can tell the difference in the cries once you've heard them enough. It is not a matter of battling for power in any sense...but a child can figure out that if you come running right away every time they cry they will start taking advantage of it. This will keep a child from getting enough rest and not sleeping like they should. No don't deprive them of food or change of a diaper but a lot of times they are just waking up and their first instinct is to cry..if they just ate and got changed give them a couple minutes and many times they do fall asleep again. You're not setting up a power struggle or showing who is in charge, you are establishing a pattern which IMO is necessary for all parents. I am not saying anything about anyones parenting style, just what worked for us but back to my orginal point ( I know ) once you've heard them cry enough you know what is "i need something important" or "I want you to come get me"

kit_kats_mom replied: I just wanted to chime in here. Not about my opinions on Babywise because most everyone knows that's not my style (as evidenced by my 4 y/o who only sometimes sleeps though the night and the two year old who's still in our bed night nursing ). But, I'm not about to judge anyone either as long as they are just using the book as a "rough guide". As a parent, I understand the need for sleep and the desire to try just about anything to get it.

The danger in this book comes when it falls into the hands of people like my MIL who would follow a road off the edge of a cliff if someone told her God wanted her too. Some people truely have no sense and are just begging for someone to lead them, even if it's down a road that is possibly dangerous. It's those people, the extremests IMO, who give it a really bad name.

PrairieMom replied:
We are a very open and accepting group of mommies here. you shouldn't feel bad for asking any question or looking for help, that is what we are here for. Understandably tho, we love our kids, and feel very strongly about our parenting choices no matter what side of the fence you are standing on. We don't "come out fighting" very often, and our Debates are almost always civilized.
Don't feel judged, and don't write us off yet.

lovemy2 replied: I am 100% with you Kit Kats Mom......you said it very eloquently!!!! Thanks...

jcc64 replied: Hmmmm, feel the need to respond to the accusation of being judgmental.
We all have our judgments and opinions, obviously- we're only human. And in light of the fact that you are relatively new to our neck of the woods, I just want to gently suggest to you that of all the various message boards on the web, I feel this board bends over backwards to be as respectful as possible of divergent opinions. Having said that, we are not all going to have the same ideas about the right way to go about things, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the conversations in as civilized a way as possible. We have all learned from each other- I learned something valuable about this book from Monica, which made perfect sense when she explained it. This board is a veritable clearinghouse for a complete cornucopia of ideas. Take what you want, dismiss the rest. There have been many times that I have wanted to bang my head against the monitor when reading web based opinions that are so diametrically opposed to my own, but I always, and I mean always, come away enlightened in some way (even if it's only to reconfirm my own ideas). These conversations are vital and necessary- and I am sorry you felt judged. If you go back and carefully read my previous posts, I stated more than once that I was not trying to indict people here who employ these methods. I simply wanted to point out some pretty well known tenets of infant/child development. Period.
I do hope you stick around long enough to understand that we are a pretty supportive group of parents here, regardless of your inclinations. We may not always agree, but do generally like and respect each other on a consistent basis.

And Monica, thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. Having twins is a whole other level of parenting, particularly as infants- and my hats off to you however you got through it in one piece!

luvmykids replied:
The twins were definitely more challenging than Macie but then again if I'd had only one the first time around I wouldn't have thought that was easy either, there is just no way around it, a new baby (or two LOL) is rough.

I absolutely agree with you regarding the first few (or several) weeks, you are on the schedule the baby gives you. Which is probably what drives exhausted parents to seek a solution and is also why, as I said, this book or any other really wouldn't have been of any help until a certain stage of eating, ability to sleep for certain lengths of time, etc.

It was actually very easy to get them on a schedule together, I highly recommend a book called Babywise (That was a joke LOL)

Anyway, they were naturally fairly in sync with each other and I just started bumping things up or holding off for a few minutes here and there until we were all on the same page. As I got to know them better I knew if I wanted or needed them to take a nap at a certain time, they needed to be awake by a certain time. I knew from day one that my goal for bedtime was between 7-8pm so right off the bat I always put them in their cribs at that time; if they needed to get up for whatever reason, fine but that was what we were working towards. Eventually though, it got so easy that I knew (and so did they) that at about five minutes till 10am they'd both go in the crib, be asleep by 10, and wake at noon. We'd eat, play, etc and they'd go back down at 2, sleep until four, we'd repeat and do baths etc and they were back down at 7pm and slept until 7am.

I have to add too, I do think that in our case a schedule was beneficial for all of us. The older they got the more good it did for all of us to know that eating is followed by playing, playing is followed by books, books are followed by rest, etc. And for me it was critical because of the work I had to do from home to know that between the hours of 10a-noon and 2p-4p I would be available to do it.

lovemy2 replied: As everyone has their own opinion, everyone also takes things differently.....

I do not like to feel as though I am being judged but unfortunately that is the way I took things at some points so that being said, it is natural to want to defend myself....and as I said - I may not agree with your parenting styly and you don't have to agree with mine but I feel strongly that opinions and advice are two different things.....

I am not leaving = just maybe going to back off a bit for awhile, I don't want things to escalate to a point of no return because I agree for the most part this is a very supportive place that offers some great information

cameragirl21 replied: i don't think anyone is judging you, Christine, and i hope you don't leave.
i think it's just hard to express yourself well when you're typing as opposed to speaking and i think it's natural when many people disagree to feel like you're being judged.
we all have to do whatever works for us. tbh, what i dislike most about Babywise and i have to say that i only first learned about it here on this board today so it's fair to presume that i don't have all the information but personally, i don't like anything that claims that this is how God wants us to do it because in all fairness, none of us knows how God wants us to drive, eat, raise children, etc. and i take issue with anything that is presented as dogma, especially the part about where the article said that Enzo takes issue with even the slightest criticism or questioning of his methods. i just don't like anything that is expected to be done, no questions asked.
it's just not how i operate so naturally to me, something like this is not going to be well received but i don't think that any of it was directed toward you.
it's a topic that lends itself to potential controversy and whenever that happens, it's natural that everyone is going to jump in with his/her opinion.
i really hope you don't take it personally and don't leave, we will miss you!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Where does it say that in the book?

The article and website posted is someone's opinion about the Ezzo's, not quoted from the book itself, I believe.

cameragirl21 replied:
from the article--"The Ezzos' secular material (Babywise) soft pedals the moral arguments for scheduling made in their religious material...."
anytime you bring up religious grounds and "moral arguments", it all goes back to God unless you're a pagan, no?

moxee24 replied:
I agrre with TheOaf you can so tell the difference in the cries once you have heard them all. Babies are smart, I think alot smarter then people give them credit for alot of the times. I did not have to do CIO with DS, but with DD I did. Only to a certain extent and ONLY after she was 6 months old and even then it was very limited within a week she was going to sleep on her own and sleeping through the night. DD is now 14 months old and takes her naps and goes to bed still sleeping through the whole night, with no problems at all.

I think that every parent needs to have the freedom to try different tehniques with their child(ren), some things work for certain children but not others. IMO, you can not force them to go to sleep or stay asleep, you have to help them adjust and comfort them. That is our job as parents is to comfort and nurture our children, IMO that is not what babywise technique is about. IMO it is about control. In that artical it says that the marriage is the first and most important part of a family. Yeah, i agree with that WHEN IT'S ONLY YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE! Once you have children they should be the center of your universe, IMO CHILDREN COME FIRST!!! Husbands/Wifes/SO are adults and can take care of them selfs in all aspects, CHILDREN CAN'T.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That is someone's opinion about the book, I've not heard anything like that quoted from the book itself.

cameragirl21 replied: Jennie, the name of one of his curricula (according to the article) is Growing Kids God's Way". i really don't know any other way to interpret this.
how can anyone presume to know what growing kids God's way is?
again, JMO.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That is one of the families sacred/spiritual based books. Babywise is a secural book. Those are two totally different books. People can write both secular and spiritual books. FYI, the website posted is not just about the book being discussed, it's about the family itself, and I don't believe it's even produced by the family.

luvmykids replied:
I'll chime in here only to say that Ezzo considers himself a Christain and does include some reference to Biblical principles in the book....I don't think it's enough to beat him up over and don't think it's really any different than any other book that bases it's content on the authors opinion of the Bible.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am sorry you felt like your parenting style was being judged... I am sure that was not the intention. I can understand how you would take it personal. Parenting is a very personal thing.

From what I take from both your post and Monica's post is that you used portions of the book as a guide and discarded what you didn't agree with or didn't fit with your family lifestyle. I think the original poster was cautioning about the health and mental affects of some of the extreme measures of withholding feedings and other basic needs that were described in the book. It doesn't sound at all like how you described your parenting style.

Maybe that is why the book is so popular... it seems to have tidbits that are helpful. I have never read the book, and I probably should before I base an opinion. But, based on the article summarizing the book, it sounds as though following the book as a strict guide could have some medical and mental ramifications. Luckily, you, Monica, and many of the other parents are wise enough to use good judgement.

cameragirl21 replied:
well, as i said before, i haven't seen the book so i can only give my opinions based on what i learned here today from the sources that were made available on this board.
i'm not bashing religion based parenting because obviously to many religion is a very important part of everyday life and it's not just for Christians, it's for every religion, really.
i don't like that he won't accept or even hear out any criticism of his opinions and books because personally i think criticism of our efforts is how we grow and learn. idk enough about this but if he really advocates not feeding children when they're hungry then yes i have a problem with this.
i really don't want to get into a debate about this because i don't have enough information to really argue about it but i'm just stating my thoughts on what was presented here.
i am absolutely NOT judging anyone here or IRL who uses these methods because that is your choice.
i think the beauty of this board is that people are from several different nations and many different walks of life and belief systems. we can learn what we'd otherwise never have been exposed to and even if we don't agree with it, it's still a new thing we've learned and IMO knowledge is power.

luvmykids replied:
In the full context of the book, which I don't think this quote is, all he's saying when he refers to the marriage being first is that A)Mom and Dad have to be a unified front where the children don't think they have a chance to use differing opinions between mom and dad to their advantage and that in his opinion, as many, many marriage counselors will tell you, the family as a whole is only as stable as the marriage.

I agree, once kids come along your spouse may have to wash his own socks but IMHO it's even more important then to try to maintain the priority of your marriage. (I said "try", I know it isn't easy )

Didn't mean to change the subject, I just feel that a link only presenting one side which also happens to be the "bad" side is crafty in using only what is convenient for making it's case I've fallen victim to that trick more than once

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Totally agree, which is what I was trying to say!

gr33n3y3z replied: I never relied on a book to tell me how to take care of our children
Its just to crazy for me to try and understand so I wont lol
But I guess Ed and I did pretty darn good bc they are all here happy and healthy

MommyToAshley replied:
I may be guilty (or a victim) of that as well, because admittedly I have not read the book. I am glad you and some of the others that liked the book were able to chime in about what you liked and how you found it useful. I am glad I got a chance to hear "the other side" which is why I like this board so much. I am tempted to buy it just so I can read it and voice an educated opinion..

lisar replied: Again I have never read the book but after reading everyones post about this, I can understand why some people would read it. Some people just need a little bit of guideance to help them figure it out on thier own. I agree with 99% of you on here. I wouldnt LIVE by the book in no means. But if I needed to know how to do things I might read something think about it and if it sounds like a good idea then I might try it and see if that works for my baby.

As for the teaching a baby to fall asleep on thier own. That can be done. Raygen has been doing it since she was born. She was in the NICU for so long she didnt have a choice. I couldnt rock her to sleep or anything or hold her. So thats how she learnt to do that. Lexi my older one she would fall asleep on her own also, she started doing that when she about 6 months old. So I still kinda agree with a few things but NOT ALL of it.

JMO...

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Here are the links from the thread I removed. I didn't intend to remove the links, but the response from a member was beyond hostile and the whole thread was removed while discussions between mods ensued.

Here are the links I removed.

http://www.ezzo.info/
http://www.ezzo.info/babywise.htm

lisar replied:
Thanks Rocky, Now I have a little bit more insight on the book.

Boo&BugsMom replied: http://www.ezzotruth.com/

This site is produced by the family, not some random person giving their two cents, like the other two.

mom21kid2dogs replied:
I was given the book when I was pregnant. I have to admit that after the 3rd chapter it was obvious to me that it would never fit into my overall view of parenting so I threw it away. Generally, I donate books I no longer want but in my view, the views were extreme and certainly not in keeping with all I know and avow about human attachment & bonding behavior so I didn't want anyone else to read it and think "Hey this is great!!". Anyone who presents their "method" as working for every child promotes cookie cutter parenting~I personally detest this as well. Imagine my horror when my beloved sister was given this book and holds it up to the same esteem as the Bible. She used/uses it with both her kids, starting at at least 8 weeks (FAR too young imo). Her first child loves sleeping and the scheduling of it (and everything else)~he thrived well as it fit well into his overall personality as a now nearly 4yo. Her second child (2.5yoa) was a horse of a different color. She uses it religiously with him too. He sleeps far less than his brother, is not bound by anyone's schedule but his own and is not nearly as regimented in his personality as his brother. He prefers to talk through his "sleep" period . In the end neither child was "harmed" by these techniques nor were the techniques promoted the "perfect" solution to "make" your child sleep they are proported to be. Conversely, it wasn't the attachment breaker I believed it to be, either. Her best friend (who turned her on to Babywise) had the exact same experience with her children~worked with some, not at all with others. My sister's children are as firmly attached to her as mine is to me because we both provide very loving, safe and nuturing environments, period. We just do it in very different ways, overall (just like here ). Neither is "better" 'cause parenting is not a competition. If we would have let it get that way between us, we would likely not even be on speaking terms.

I am not a pushover parent by any means but "making" someone sleep is not my personal battleground. I just pick my battles differently. I, too, have a happy, well rested, content child, who will sleep with us until she feels she wants to sleep on her own. Many paths, same destination.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Cheryl, this is one point that I was trying to say as well, thank you for putting it in those words. I totally agree!

I think the book is great for some, and not so great for others because each child is different. And of course, every author of each book will think that their way is the best. If someone knows a method is not for them, then don't use it, plain and simple. With each method there are pros and cons and each method works for some, and doesn't work for others. It's finding that right method that works for you and your family that is key, and BabyWise is one that works great for some people. Sometimes people put down a method just because it doesn't work for them, and that to me just is not right and totally biased.

Crystalina replied: I never read a book to know how to parent. I think I do a pretty decent job at it. I think parenting is all common sense. I'm not sure I understand how someone would have to read a book to know what to do with their children but I'm not here to judge. For me I just don't understand it.

Jamison'smama replied: Well I am a "read anything I can get my hands on" kind of person when it comes to a topic such as parenting. I have read and read on the topic and this book is not one I would use but have known others who like it...on the complete opposite end is a book called Unconditional Parenting in case anyone wants to know I don't think I had to read books to parent but it helps me (and many others) to do so. I am a follower of a lot of Dr. Sears techniques but I could never take it as a Bible. I would feel like such a failure if I tried and I think that's what this and other extreme books can do to parents. I will not promote Babywise (and there are a couple of others) to clients for many of the reasons mentioned above.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Crystal, one of the problems with common sense, is that it's not very common at all.

Parenting is one of those learning experiences that is different every time. No matter how many children you have, there will always be something new...and nothing works exactly the same way for every child, as every child is different. You just have to do what works for you...and if Ezzo's methods are it, then good for you. I personally take what I want to take out of every suggestion, and toss the rest.

msoulz replied:
BRAVO!!!!!!!!! This is true for so many things in life. Well said, thank you! By the way, so we have the same MIL????

Jackie012007 replied: what does CIO mean? I'm new to this whole parenting thing

PrairieMom replied:
Cry- it - out
its also the ferber method.

Jackie012007 replied: ohhhhh. I knew it was cry something something. Thank you Tara!

Danalana replied: Jennifer (cameragirl21), your signature is amazing! I got tears in my eyes...

Ummm, i'm not a mother...I also didn't read the original post. But I have a feeling I'm gonna love all over my babies. And I definitely couldn't withhold affection or food. I don't understand the way it's being used, honestly, but I don't think I could.

Crystalina replied:
Well, I was the oldest of 4 and my mom was a single parent so I learned alot there. And then my sister had 4 babys before I had my first so I kind of knew what to do already.

Boys r us replied: Wow...I'm way disturbed!!!

I don't consider myself a pushover at all...AT ALL...but when it comes to my baby, a helpless little person THAT I CHOSE to bring into this world knowing full well that she would be completely dependant on my dh & I for her every need...I choose to uphold my responsibility to her and take care of her every need. It would break my heart not to stop her discomfort/hunger etc knowing I had the power to do so.

She didn't choose to be in this world, I chose for her to..so who am I to demand that she conform to my schedule and "train" her not to interupt my sleep? I thought(nievely obviously) that as a society we were beyond the children are to be seen not heard way of thinking. Children are to be loved and cared for, with love and care they will learn the schedule of the house that everyone else follows. I personally smile everytime my daughter needs me...even when I was complete zombie because of her needs as a newborn. She will be 4 months iin 2 days and she is sleeping through the night and has been for almost 2 months and she did that on her own. But my point is that everytime she wakes me up or I have to stop what I'm doing to care for her...I do what she needs and I do it with love and with a huge smile that SHE puts on my face everytime I see her whether it be day or night!! and what's even better than that is that my boys see this and they both have learned the same desire to make her world perfect if it's within their power...just as I did with them as well! I feel it's my job as their parent! That's all...just my responsibility!

coasterqueen replied:
You took the words right out of my mouth Nichole. This is my very feeling about my children in every way. People ask me how I worked full time and was up every 2 hours every night with my girls....you just do it. It's my job. I think a lot of times people tend to forget that these children are helpless souls who didn't ask to be put into this scary world, yet we tend to try to make them do everything so fast and so grown-up, it's no wonder our world is what it is today. We don't want our children to be children, we don't want them to grow up slowly, be dependent upon us, think for themselves, get to where they want to be when they feel it's the right time - we want them to conform to our life, to our needs, to our wants/desires - we want little robots. We bring them into this world and expect them to adhere to our schedules, when in fact a truly good working family works together to make a new one as a new family.

Again, thank you for saying what you said because that's how I feel when people IRL tell me I need to force my kids to sleep by themselves, to show them who's "boss", or to just close the door and let them scream.

lisar replied:
Well put!!!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I didn't mean you personally.

One of the things we go on - is that DH and I both sleep when we're tired, we eat when we're hungry, we drink when we're thirsty, we use the bathroom when we need to.

Our children cannot do it on their own.

Until our children CAN do it on their own, we will help them get what they need.

As for sleeping... as far as I'm concerned, it's my job to teach my children that they can fall asleep without me having to rock them. But... I haven't really done the whole CIO thing.... I pretty much just try to comfort my kids in a different way, like singing a song, rubbing their back, patting their bum etc... i try whatever works until I find somethin gthat works.

If my children wake up in the middle of the night, they get a drink, just as I would get myself a drink if I wake up in the middle of the night thirsty.

I don't care what a parent's parenting method is... as long as the needs of the child are met... and parents know when their kids are faking it.... kids are very smart. Emilie whines ALL THE TIME. Do I get her things all the time? Heck no, I'd ALWAYS be giving her things. So sometimes, I let her cry. She's THREE though.

Babies just plain don't understand. Parents who expect their BABY to understand that they need to sleep through the night can be a little extreme sometimes... a full night for a baby is a 5 hour stretch. If the baby goes down at 11pm... then yup, 4 am, their night is done. I can't fathom parents making their child go to sleep by leting them cry in a crib until they fall asleep from exhaustion. I can't. If I can't sleep, I can't sleep, that's all there is to it... why would I expect someone else to sleep when they're not tired?

Not to get into a debate... but it's like some parents rely wayyy too much on stuff said by so called professionals. Like the parents who wake their babies every few hours to feed them... the baby will wake up when hungry... enjoy the peace and quiet... the kid's not going to starve because he's still sleeping 15 minutes past his "scheduled" time...

people tend to forget that a routine is simply the order of things done...it's not a times list of things to do at certain times... it's just the order of things to do... bath, book, bed... not bath at 7, book from 7:`5 to 7:30 and bed at 7:30... it's just bath book bed....

gr33n3y3z replied:
Very well said Nichole I agree 100%