Jeanie (mammamag) - question related to your post

jcc64 wrote: So, I just read your post about what traits you most want to pass along to your kids. You mentioned empathy, which I've seen again and again from you here. Everything I know about you comes back to that truth. And it brings up a question that I often have floating around in my head regarding our political differences. I am not looking to start a debate about republicans or liberals, so let's work hard at staying on topic- which won't be easy. The thing I'm curious about is how someone who so obviously values empathy can so enthusiastically embrace some of the views of the Republican party. My understanding of the party platform concerning social issues is that Republicans endorse personal responsibility- that is, when all the rhetoric is stripped away, it's every man for himself, survival of the fittest, etc. They don't support social services for the poor and the weak, are indifferent to the plight of the uninsured, and despite any sort of spin they offer up, just don't care to concern themselves with the weak and marginalized of our society. They may talk the talk during elections, but when it comes to funding, all evidence is to the contrary. Because the vast majority of people living below the poverty line in this country happen to be children, I have never understood how so many loving, compassionate mothers can divorce themselves from this fact.
I realize you were born a conservative and will die a conservative, and in no way will I ever try to "convert" you. I am just trying to rid myself of the tendency of liberals to dehumanize the other side as unfeeling or simply concerned with promoting their own best interests at the expense of the good of society as a whole. Can you enlighten me?

Boys r us replied: Interesting question!

coasterqueen replied: Very interesting question. I also think of Republicans as smaller government, which costs the taxpayers less. Ok, I won't add any more....not my thread.

jcc64 replied:

I think this is becoming sort of old school thinking, Karen. It used to be the case, but I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. But already we're veering off topic.

iluvmysweetiepies replied: Good question!!

mammag replied: Sorry it's taken a while to respond.... my internet has been acting crazy!!

The reason I believe the way I do and so strongly agree with the republican party is because I look at people on welfare for instance..... where is it getting them? It's holding them down. I guess I feel it goes along with the saying "give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for a life time." Several times people have posted about family members who live off of the generosity of other family members. I've posted about my husbands cousin who lived with my sister for a while, she pretends to be broke all the time and then spends $220 on a hair cut. She's 34yo and just moved out on her own and has nothing to show for her life thus far. Why? Because for so long she has let other people support her. Until she grows up and takes responsibility for herself she will never improve her life.

My parents didn't have much money and worked like heck to support us kids but they never resorted to welfare....because they didn't have to...they didn't take the easy way out.

I do believe that some people need welfare. But I also feel that most people on welfare don't need it and are milking the system. I used to deliver (with my parents when I was very young) the advertisement bags in one of the worst neighborhoods around here....Greenbriar apartments if anyone knows this area....they had one court nick named "Oozy Ally". There were people sitting around doing cocaine on the stairs as I walked up. These people would be waiting around for their welfare checks, hop into their Cadillac, and head off to the store to buy a bunch of steaks, while wearing their $100 tennis shoes and gold chains! Tell me that's fair when my parents worked day and night to feed us a modest meal and keep us in payless shoes. Welfare should be saved for the single mom who would pay more for daycare than she could make, or the old man who can no longer work but doesn't make retirement, etc. It's too easy to get and not enough monitoring.

I just truly feel that for the most part the way the system works just holds people back. When we passed welfare reform here in 1996 it was one of the best moves we made. It put a limitation on it while providing more work training. They did a big news story on it sometimes later, speaking to women who were forced to get off welfare and how much their lives have improved.


This is, however, not my only reason for being a Republican. There is abortion, the right of the millions of unborn children to live.... gun rights, my right to defend my family..... strong military to defend our country..... tax reform, making it fair to people who actually try to make a better life for their families..... I could go on...

If there are any questions about a particular issue that you want to ask about feel free..... I'm not shy about my political beliefs....obviously.

jcc64 replied: Let's see. Where to go from here?
I guess we veered a little off topic, which I suspected would be inevitable. The one question central to my post was the fact that most people who are living below the poverty line are children. I am fully aware there are abuses of the welfare system, although I suspect it is far less than what Republicans would like to believe in an effort to justify their position. Any gov't agency is fraught with the potential for abuse, inefficiency, and inequity. But that doesn't negate the very real needs of impoverished children. In order to prevent the guy who spends the welfare check on cocaine from abusing the system, do we then deny a single mother the opportunity to feed her children or seek medical care when they are sick?
It's so tempting to assign our reality as THE reality. Your experiences and encounters with poverty are valid, but they are limited. There are many, many reasons people find themselves unable to feed their families- and you can't possibly know if they are all legitimate reasons- but I'm quite certain no one ever got rich on welfare. I guess I would rather live in a society where we feel some sense of responsibility, some empathy, for those whose lives unfolded in a more difficult way than my own, even if that means that some people find a way to abuse that generousity. And while we're on the subject of abuse, the amount of money we lose to welfare fraud is miniscule in comparison to what is lost through corporate tax loopholes, as well as through the creative accounting practices of our more affluent citizens, courtesy of the current administration. But again I digress.
I don't think a lifetime of welfare is a viable solution either. But there are many other ways to support our poor. Subsidized childcare, guaranteed medical care, easier ways to become educated or acquire a skill. None of these are a priority of Republicans- rather, they're relentlessly attacked in favor of tax cuts for people who don't need them.
Anyway, looking forward to more discussion on the issue.

Kaitlin'smom replied: this is interesting.........I really dunno which party I stand with I have view from each of them so what does that make me? LOL

My2Beauties replied: Jeanne, while I can't speak as eloquently as you *ahem* you say everything I want to say!

iluvmysweetiepies replied:
LeeAnn- well said, LOL exactly what I was going to say.

mammag replied: I’m not sure that I did veer off topic…..I stated my views on the welfare system.

I also stated that I think that some people do need it and I don’t think the republican party has ever said they are going to do away with the welfare system all together. With any system, you have to make reforms to fix problems and there are many problems in the welfare system. That is why we now have time limits and increased job training. There has to be an end to it. You can’t just give them a check, a check that still keeps them at poverty levels, and let them live off of that. We need to increase faith based programs to help out. I agree…..as does the President……that we need to help impoverished children….but the current welfare system is hurting them….it’s disempowering them. They become reliant on the system instead of getting out and making a better life. The Republican Party in no way wants to let children starve. There are better ways. If all who so want to keep the current welfare system in place would take time to come up with better alternatives it would serve those children well. I would be interested to see the numbers on welfare fraud (which I suspect is much higher than you would like to believe). Yes, it is a nice touchy feely policy but it is not working and needs to be changed. It needs to be taken out of the governments a hand (which as you said, is fraught with abuses anyway) and brought into the communities….that’s where you’ll make a real change in peoples lives. It is a priority to republicans but when we try to make changes dems start with the rhetoric of “they want to do away with the welfare system and leave children to starve” That is not the case at all…. We see what the current system is doing to this nation and yeah, my experience is limited but I can tell you that those children raised in those high majority welfare complexes were not benefiting from the welfare system… They’re parents sure were…. I don’t have all the answers and maybe if the two parties would come together, stop the rhetoric, and find some solutions, we could make a change for the better.

As far as your comment on the tax loopholes.... This is where you are working under a false assumption that it is the government’s money. When I get my tax return at the beginning of each year, it’s not the government handing me over some money. They are returning MY money that I earned and overpaid. And who is anyone to say who “needs” what… This is not a socialist government…. I think it’s pretty messed up when you are looking at your next raise and having to tell your employer not to give it to you because you will jump to the next tax bracket and make less…..all while trying to pay the mortgage, electric, groceries for a large family, etc. As far as corporate loopholes…..sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to protect your business and keep people working. I don’t begrudge anyone else their wealth… they earned it….they run the business not me. Do you not take as many exemptions and credits as you can? Why is it any different for a corporation. I say a flat tax is the way to go. One percentage so if you make 10,000 and the percentage is 10% you pay $1000 if you make $1,000,000 you pay $100,000…. Are you not then paying more?

mammag replied: BTW, anyone else with opinions on this feel free to chime in. This is up for anyone's discussion.....especially my fellow Republicans.

mckayleesmom replied: I agree with you Jeanie.....I don't think we are saying that we want people to starve...but maybe there needs to be a limit on what is handed to them and ways to help them improve themselves. Why should you be helped if you are not willing to help yourself at all??

kit_kats_mom replied: I can't type out all I want to say but I will say that faith based anything is a bad idea. keep the church & state seperate. I would live on the street before I would accept housing from a place that would preach to me all day. In fact I did when I was a teenager. Now that I have kids to consider, I'd still really have a hard time accepting help from a faith based organization. Not because I'm not spiritual but because I'm stubborn & it seems very wrong to me. & what about the Wiccans & athiests? It would really set them up for a personal moral quandry.

mammag replied:
If the Wiccans and Athiests wanted to start programs to help the poor......I say more power to them.

Just because you would be uncomfortable doesn't mean another would. Let them make that choice. I don't think the plan is that if you take money from them you have to convert to their religion.

This says it better than I could....

Bush pushed to allow religious groups to compete for federal money to operate programs for the needy. At first blush, mixing religion with government appeared to be a violation of the principle of separating church and state. But, if organizations were already in place to help the needy, why not give them more funds to do their jobs? Those funds were available for organizations that had no religious affiliation. The fact that an organizations that was affiliated with the Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, or Muslim faiths received federal money did not mean the money would be used to fund religion. It meant the money would be channeled to help those who are hungry, addicted to drugs, or illiterate in the most efficient way possible because the overhead for attacking those problems and the volunteers to work on them already existed. Thus, taxpayers would not have to pay for the new layers of bureaucracy to distribute the aid. In effect, it was a way to leverage the government's money.
Source: A Matter of Character, by Ronald Kessler, p.122-25 Aug 5, 2004

Jamison'smama replied:
Just an FYI--doing my undergraduate work as a social worker--I was in MANY of the apartments you are talking about--formerly Greenbriar now known as Woodland Meadows. The people I worked with in those apartments were all single mothers. I agree that there are exceptions to each situation but the majority of people on the welfare system today are single moms--it is very very difficult to obtain public assistance if there are two parents in the home or if you are a single person. Now, Social Security used to be way too easy to obtain and that is most likely the checks many of the people were waiting on as well as unemployment and worker's comp. They have increased the difficulty to obtain SSI but every system is abused.

mammag replied: There are also a lot of single moms where the father "visits" on a nightly basis but they don't marry so they don't lose their benefits. I worked with a couple like this at Daddy O's. And it was welfare because they would ask us if we had seen the mail man because they were waiting for their welfare checks.

I thought I said....but can't find it..... that I do think it is needed for some people like the single mom who would pay more than she makes on childcare for her children, or the old man who has no retirement.........could have swore I said it. Anyway, I agree in some cases it is definitely needed but there needs to be training and a plan for a better life to go along with that.

Edited again to say....I found it....I did say that already....sorry.

On a side note.....can you believe my parents had me walking through those apartments at the age of 8......in my own court while they were in another!!!! It was very scarey. They had to quite though because too many times we were hearing about shootings taking place shortly after we had been in the area. We delivered there for many years though...... okay....back to the topic at hand..

coasterqueen replied: I have so many things to say but agree a lot with you Jeanie in so many way.

One thing I have to say about the welfare system but I'm gonna wander a bit so I apologize. Do you how many family's have the mom SAH and the dad works so they go on welfare because they can't make ends meet? Come on, why would the mother SAH if she can work? Because welfare was and in some ways is still easy to get. Do you know how many times I could have quit my job and stayed at home and collected welfare? It's ridiculous. Now I'm not saying people shouldn't be on welfare and I KNOW that there are many people who are out there that SAH because they would make less if they worked and paid for daycare. Like I said there's always exceptions so I hope no one takes offense because that's not my intention.

I frequent a board where it's all women on it, no men. Some, not all, boast about how important it is to be a SAHM and they can't make ends meet so they are on welfare. Someone would post how they want to SAH so badly and these women reply "quit your job, go on welfare, that's what it's there for". HUH? People abuse that system so badly it's pathetic. I think the percentage who REALLY need it is far less than many think. I could go on about this and the whole food stamp issue, but I won't.

DH and I both qualified for government assistance/food stamps, etc while in college. We were so poor, it was horrible. We were trying to put ourselves through school and did some pretty crappy jobs to get through and acquired a LOT of debt (not just student loans) to make ends meet without having to live in a shelter. Dh's dad bought us food when times got rough, but other than that we had NO help.

As far as the tax bracket thing. It's funny Jeanie that you say that because we made $2500 too much last year which put us in another tax bracket and it SUCKED badly the amount of taxes we had to pay because of it. Ironically I took the job of cleaning our office to make the extra money which was a yearly total of a little over $2500. Dh immediately said "quit that job". It is sad we have to stop doing something or in fear of getting to the next tax bracket.

Also my few on the tax loopholes. If we didn't give businesses these tax breaks don't you think more people would be without jobs? YEP! The more and more we crack down on businesses with taxes we are hurting each and every employed person out there because we are the ones that hurt, not the business. They have a targeted projected income. They are gonna make it whether they have to let more people go, increase premiums, decrease salaries, etc. I could go on and on on this subject. This is one area I wish democrats would understand.

Ok, I'm getting a headache. I'll quit typing now.

redchief replied: I'm a Republican. I'm a conservative. That's as far as I'm going because I truly don't believe anything good is going to come from this thread; and I don't agree with personal attacks on anyone's political beliefs on THIS board. There are plenty of political forums for this type of topic.

coasterqueen replied:
I apologize if you think I am making a personal attack on anyone. I think there is good that can come of threads like this..we can learn from each others views and communicating like adults on a subject.

Just like when we had the whole thread on Bush and how people hated him or liked him. We CAN have discussions on this without getting too deep. But maybe I got too deep on this subject. Sorry.

mammag replied: Wanted to add a few ways in which you are wrong that the Republican party is every man for himself.......

Raised the child tax credit to $1000 per child....I know that made a big difference for me in raising my children.

No child left behind......kids should not be graduating without a proper education and unable to get a decent paying job...thus leading to them getting on welfare.

Added prescription drug benefit to Medicare.......or they can stick to the old plan if they so wish

Community Health Centers where care is given despite inability to pay. They have opened up 600 new facilities and plan to open 600 more to provide care to underinsured and low-income Americans

Expanded Coverage in the Medicaid and SCHIP programs to include 2.6 million chidren and increased benefits to 8 million

Perhaps you should take a good look at the Republican Party Platform.....

GOP Platform

We are not the uncaring, money hungry, party the media tends to make us out to be.

mammag replied: I didn't feel you were attacking anyone. Thus far, I think everyone is doing a good job of keeping it at a discussion without attack. If it became that way I would be stepping right out of it.......well, I hope I haven't attacked anyone.....

redchief replied:
Karen,

Sorry! I meant that the very first post was a thinly veiled personal attack on the ability of a certain conservative member's ability to be both conservative and empathetic. I believe I am both. I believe it is possible to be both. I don't believe that my conservative view on welfare is wrong or lacks empathy for the problem.

Empathy is simply an understanding of another's plight. I don't think that conservatism makes me unable to understand the problems others have. It just means I have a different view on what it takes to solve a given problem than a liberally thinking person may have.

mammag replied: Well said Ed!!!!!

My2Beauties replied: OK as most of you know I preety much have the same views as Jeanne has. My only slightly Republican belief is the abortion thing, I"m sort of on the fence. I don't agree it's right, if you lay down, you need to have that child, give it up for adoption if you don't want to raise it, but don't kill it! However, if I were raped and a pregnancy resulted from that, I would want to have an abortion. This is why it's important that the morning after pill be availble here for that reason. Not so kids can go out and have sex, screw up, and take a pill the next day! I don't think that is what it should be used for.

Ok now that I have stated my view on that....a couple people have said that welfare is extremely easy to get - um where do you live ?? The reason I am asking is because my best friend has two children by a complete and total jacka$$ who owes so much money on child support that he is close to being on the top 10 list probably. Maybe not that bad, but still it seems like it. Anyways, he is never there for his kids, she works 40 hours a week, sometimes more, to make ends meet, making only about $9 an hour, she is trying to get into school to become a dental assistant and she cannot get hardly any help. When she got a raise at her job, from $-9 an hour, they cut her foodstamps back to $10 a month Um...a little harsh don't ya think! She made $1 dollar extra an hour and almost all her foodstamps were taken, not that she was getting hardly many to begin with!

Brian's uncle is another example. He has had several heart attacks and is on SSI, he's probably 60 years old, he only gets $400 in disability a month His wife doesn't work so she can take care of him and their son, who had cancer as a child and has caused some problems for him now! He also gets SSI, a whopping $700 a month! I hardly think being on welfare is easy!

Jamison'smama replied:
Having worked in this field for many years I can tell you that it is not easy to get and it is getting harder--even for the deserving. It is easier to obtain a medical card and food stamps but cash assistance is almost non-existant in our state. Now, a single mother (most of the time) cannot just get cash assistance, they must "work" for the money--she must go into the Dept. of Jobs and Family Services office and "work" at a job (sorting marbles is one of them--not kidding) for 40 hours to obtain a check that of course is less than what she would get paid if she worked at McDonalds. The problem with a lot of the single moms attempting to work is finding adequate child care--as you know, finding someone who will take a 6 week old can be hard--especially if they must take Title XX as well--on a busline and allows variable hours because believe me, McDonalds does not work you 9-5 each day. It is an ongoing struggle and sure, many of them can find a way to make it work and find jobs that work with them but it is hard. Just something to think about---these women are very poor, live in substandard housing where I would tuck my jeans into my socks to keep the roaches off of me and would NEVER take my bag inside. They walk with their children in the snow to ride a bus to the childcare place then change buses for the job at McDonalds to have their hours cut. I just want people to think about who is obtaining these checks---this is MOST of the people. I do think we need a lot of changes ---more accessable jobs with higer minimum wage, more healthcare benefits, accessable and decent childcare to name a few.

Again, this is my state and many people do abuse the system but here it is harder to get cash benefits and if it is a 2 parent home, you will likely not qualify.

Wow, we did get off topic but I wil bring it around to empathy, we need to remember that there are people who don't abuse the system but those are the people we hear less about.

Jamison'smama replied: awwe man, I tried to edit and take out all my spelling errors--yes I know accessible is spelled this way etc. I added stuff and everything--oh well I waited too long.

I wanted to add these people don't live high on the hog, the apartment complexes are often dangerous--some sleep on the floor to avoid possible stray bullets. We could have an entire discussion about why many people are living this way--generations of welfare recipients but we need to remember that this is not a life that most of us would want to live.

I only have a few things on the board that I feel passionate about---this is one

mammag replied: I think this just proves my point that there needs to be reform. More job training which is what Bush pushes for. You are describing how awful the living conditions are for these women.......exactly!!! How is that serving the chidren. And if you don't force them to get out of it at some point, the kids will stay in those conditions forever.

You said yourself, they could make it work but it is hard.... Yep, life can be really tough. It is sad but it is true. And sometimes you have to do what is hard to make a better life and be an example to your children. Sometimes, the choices we make in life lead to some sad consequences. It is certainly sad for the children but I still stand by the fact that the current welfare system is not the answer for them.



First of all, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to me....having to "work" for the paycheck... Don't you work for yours? And if you don't want to sort marbles for less than you would make at McDonalds....work at McDonalds....get a job in waste management.....clean toilets at the mall..... Is it a fun glamorous job, no, but if it were me I'd do what ever I had to to take care of my own. So what do you suggest? She should stay home, get her check, and live like that for the rest of her life?

There has to be a better way than this.....welfare is disempowering so many people.

LeaAnne, Is there any friends who could help your friend? Can you watch her kids so she can go to school at night? Family she could move in with? I don't mean to sound harsh but I wouldn't mind going to college myself but I have four kids I have to take care of, the only way I could reasonably do it would be to go at night or take online classes....

Another point..... Welfare was never meant as income replacement and I feel that is how it is being used in many cases. And I hope this doesn't sound harsh as well but we all have to live with the repercussions of the choices we made in life.... not studying hard in school, having kids too young, having kids before we were in a stable relationship... but we can't expect others to pay for those choices. There has to be a time (****I am not saying this is the case for all or even most of the people on welfard****) when we take responsibility for ourselves and our families.

If Chris suddenly left me I would have a hard way to go. I'd have to live with family, work a job I don't necessarily like, be away from my kids. But I would do what ever I could to not rely on the taxpayers to support me.

As far as food stamps.... My sister got WIC and food stamps for a while because her dh was military and going through ROTC. They were making as much as before but it was mostly tax deductible so it wasn't included in the qualifying income. She would go to the store (and they were both joking about this ) with $200 sunglasses on her head, a $70 tank top, and then get into their new SUV to load up their groceries. For some, it's way too darn easy to get.

mammag replied:
So how is this helping the children????

Jamison'smama replied: Okay, got a little more heated than I expected but I will still respond

I think that what I said was a little different than how it was read.

When I made most of my statements I was referring to the posts about how people sit back and receive checks--sounding like they were receiving this wonderful amount of money--and that's not the case. The average cash benefit in Ohio is less than 150.00 per month and 85.00 in food stamps.

Secondly, you can't FORCE women out of poverty by taking away welfare--doesn't work that way. Of course this is not what they want for their children--NO ONE wants their children to live this way and it was implied that it is their choice when often times it is not!

Yes, like I said they can and do work at McDonalds and other fast food places as well as picking up trash, working in daycares, cleaning toilets at the malls--that is exactly who does these jobs but they are unlikely to receive benefits--leading to the need for Medicaid. Minimum wage leads to the need for subsidized housing (which is the substandard housing I was referring to) and food stamps in order to survive. These are also the jobs that cut hours and vary schedules and call you at the last minute because they need/don't need you. Many daycare providers don't work that way---and if you cut hours too much then the need for another job comes up, too many job changes looks bad on a resume'. Of course it is hard and life is hard and I know that--and believe me, they know that.

I never even slightly suggested a person should stay home and get a check forever, I am just wanting people to think about the actual people out there---the sorting marbles is ridiculous---have a person working with them 40 hours a week on job skills or resume writing or finding a job would certainly be better.

I agree that reform needs to happen--both politcal parties believe changes are necessary. I was not on the political bandwagon here---I in no way stated my political beliefs here. My point was to look at the person instead of the problem.

[/QUOTE] Another point..... Welfare was never meant as income replacement and I feel that is how it is being used in many cases. And I hope this doesn't sound harsh as well but we all have to live with the repercussions of the choices we made in life.... not studying hard in school, having kids too young, having kids before we were in a stable relationship... but we can't expect others to pay for those choices. There has to be a time (****I am not saying this is the case for all or even most of the people on welfare****) when we take responsibility for ourselves and our families. [QUOTE]

I agree with this statement. Welfare, in the past could be used this way. We do have to live with the choices we made but sometimes we have to exist with the choices other people made for us until we are able to change.

My intention was to put more of a face on the problem--not to make it political---even though the intention of the post was political. I just want people to recognize that there is a reason for welfare---there is a need for help--these women love their children as we do and sometimes we do need to help out---again, not talking about the abusers.

We're getting there--things are getting better--there is more help available for job training and placement but not enough--and transportation is still very difficult---I in no way stated that welfare is the end-all and let's give it to whoever wants it and ---most of the people on welfare, would rather not be.

MommyToAshley replied: First of all, I think everyone is doing a good job of keeping this thread civil and on topic... thank you.

It's no secret where I stand on the political issues. I think both Jeanie and Ed have done an excellent job of putting my thoughts and beliefs in words... it's as if they were typing the thoughts in my head. So, I am not going to spend a lot of time retyping what they have already said.

I think the problem is that we've become accustomed to the stereotypes and labels that our political parties have put on the other party that sometimes we don't look at the issues, and more importantly how each candidate and party want to address those issues.

Let's just look at me for example: I believe I am an empathetic person, care deeply about others and act accordingly. I am not wealthy by any means and I have worked most my life since I was 12 years old (paper route and babysitting) then I worked fast food to have extra money to buy clothes when I was in high shcool. My parents are/were working class... both my parents had to work just to have a roof over our head and food on the table. They didn't have the income to pay for my college. I did earn scholarships to help pay for college, but I also worked 50+ hours per week at a job while going to college at the same time. So, I didn't have an easy life by any means. The point I am trying to make is that this isn't the picture that the democratic party would paint as your typical republican. However, I believe in most of the republican views. I don't agree with each and every policy, but I agree with their views when it comes to welfare reform, the majority of their tax plan, faith based initiatives, no child left behind, etc.

And, I have also learned through most of you on here that I should not automatically assume you are a certain way just because you are democrat. I like to be an optomist and believe that people in both parties have empathy, care about all people, especially the children. Being republican doesn't mean that you don't have empathy and don't care about the children and only want the rich to get richer. Being democratic doesn't mean that you stand for the working class and the poor and that you will do whatever you can to cheat the system. Both parties recognize there are some serious social problems, we just simply disagree on how to solve the problems.

Sorry, I said I wasn't going to type much and I ended up writing a book. I tried to answer your question, which I believe was how can you be empathetic and stand for the truth and still be a republican. So, I suppose I should have just written that I believe people in both parties have those qualities.

Jamison'smama replied: And I went WAAAAAYYYY off topic--sorry about that! I will sit back and read!

ETA the smile--didn't want to seem unhappy--I enjoy being educated.

MommyToAshley replied:
I still liked reading everyone's point of view even if it was off topic, which I really don't think it was too off topic. It's all relevant. And, you are in a job that brings a unique perspective to the topic. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and I hope you don't stop.

jcc64 replied: Wow, I learned a lot from this thread, which is exactly what I was hoping for. I especially appreciated Brenda's unique perspective as someone with real life working knowledge of the subject. I think we really do need to put a human face on this problem.
And Ed, I'm sorry you perceived my post as a "thinly veiled" attack on Jeanie and her beliefs. Jeanie knows I have nothing but respect for her, and I believe I framed my question in a respectful way. It was, as I stated, asked in the spirit of bridging the gap between our two opposing ideologies. She did a good job explaining her views, and she can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I offended her or anyone else for that matter. (except maybe you).
It is necessary to have these kinds of conversations if we have any hope of coming together again as a country. I would never bring these sorts of issues up if I didn't think we were capable of conducting them in an intelligent and civilized manner. Sorry if it made you uncomfortable, but you of course always have the option of avoiding the thread alltogether.

And btw- in no way do I think the Democrats have all the answers, or even some of them!

redchief replied:
Hahah... Dee Dee, I had a veritable book written three times and deleted it in favor of keeping my big mouth (and keyboard) shut! Ahh well, now I'm off! Perhaps some good can come of this discussion. I wish I had the answers. I wish ANYONE had them. It's one thing to have empathy. It's quite another to come up with a viable, workable solution to poverty. It's one thing to understand that it's difficult for a young, single mother to raise her child, work and provide adequate education and medical care. It's another to ask that the taxpayers, all of whom are working for their own, to bear the full burden of the poor. It's one thing to understand that many of these young women grew up in a welfare state and that's the only life they know. It's another to continue a program that has caused this type of flawed thinking without discouraging this behavior to continue.

I don't have the answers. Unfortunately, neither, it seems, does anyone else. I understand and feel for the children, but as I said before; I'm paying for my children. I work two full time jobs in order to do it. I expect every person who brings a child into this world to do the same, if necessary. Do I understand that some just are unable to work and care for their children? Sure I do; but as soon as that situation is rectified, I expect that the parent will do all in his or her power to become as self-sufficient as possible. We do have a responsibility to care for children who have no one to care for them. As a society it would be barbaric to do differently. But I feel no responsibility for the poor choices of the parent(s).

coasterqueen replied: Dee Dee....all I have to say is you worded this so eliquently (and I know I didn't spell that right. )

"And, I have also learned through most of you on here that I should not automatically assume you are a certain way just because you are democrat. I like to be an optomist and believe that people in both parties have empathy, care about all people, especially the children. Being republican doesn't mean that you don't have empathy and don't care about the children and only want the rich to get richer. Being democratic doesn't mean that you stand for the working class and the poor and that you will do whatever you can to cheat the system. Both parties recognize there are some serious social problems, we just simply disagree on how to solve the problems. '

ITA!!!

A&A'smommy replied: WOW what a great subject I wish I was a better writter so I could put my beliefs into words... basicly what Jeanie, Ed and Dee Dee said it what I believe. Everyone did a wonderful job keeping this thread so light and educational thank you I really enjoyed reading!!

TeagansMom609 replied: I take offense to alot of the posts Ive read. When Shawn and I first moved out on our own, I was pregnant, was not able to work because I went into pre-term labor at 29 weeks and we were so broke!! We had no food, and could hardly pay rent. Therefor I went to the welfare dept. Not proudly I must say but we needed help until we atleast could get back on our feet. We pay for it in our taxes, why not use it when you really need it??? THATS WHAT ITS THERE FOR!!!!! Its there for people like us who have always worked hard, and pay taxes for programs like welfare. I walked in there and looked around at the people who were there and noticed out of the 70 people or so I was maybe 1 of 3 white people. The others were complete white trash and I felt so out of place. I was ashamed but we needed it. Actually, when I first came in and was about to walk through the metal detectors the cops told me to just walk through. No purse check like everyone else or anything. They thought I worked there. So we got a small cash assistance and $275 a month food stamps for a few months until I went back to work. So those of you "republicans" who are stomping on welfare and saying "oh just suck it up" to those who are having financial problems....(edited by MTA) Was I not deserving of a few months of help for something I pay for in my taxes anyway?? Oh and another thing, presently we are receiving assistance for child care because we cant afford an extra $600 a month for Teagan to go to daycare 3 days a week. We must be pure scum huh??? And that ignorance is what makes me proud to say im not a republican. (notice I dont even give the word an initial cap?)

redchief replied:
Jeanne, perhaps I overreacted. I'm not generally emotionally driven. What I saw made me think, "Wow, Jeanne thinks Jeanie is a cold hearted @#$%^@!" In retrospect and after reading every one of the posts, I realize that you don't feel that way at all, and that, despite your political differences you seem to have utmost respect for each other.

I must admit that I could feel the frustration oozing from my screen as both sides tried to respectfully offer their sides. I'm actually not real good at that in RL, so maybe this is a better place for me to discuss my idealogies after all. I tend to be a bit sarcastic, more unmoldable, and generally stodgey. At 42 I'm not likely to change the way I perceive the planet.

kit_kats_mom replied: The solution came to me in the shower (don't all brilliant ideas?).

Make taxes more like 401k's. Each individual can elect how they want thier taxes spent. That way, wiccans can support wiccan relief organizations, retired military people can pay for defense and veterans aid, moms can support schools and food voucher programs for school age kids etc. That way, instead of thinking "aw crap, I've got to pay my taxes", you will instead think "oh yay, I get to contribute to the causes I feel strongly about".

I know it would probably never work but it was a fun idea while it lasted. LOL I really wouldn't mind paying taxes if it went that way since I would most likey give to more "democratic" groups. KWIM?

Boys r us replied: Wow..I have stayed out of this and maybe it's because I have such mixed emotions!

I really don't consider myself democrat or republican b/c I can't fully allign myself with either of them. When it comes to voting, I vote for the person who seems to represent more of what I believe in, typically that is the democratic party..although this past time around I think the democrats scraped the bottom of the barrel for their offer to the presidential race and couldn't bring myself to vote for him. But it seems welfare is the top subject, I guess I'll jump in there..I really can see both sides to this. I have been blessed to have been brought up in a home where I never had to worry about where our meal came from. But when I went away to college, I got pregnant my sophmore year and at the bright age of 20, I decided I didn't need help from anyone. Which means Tanner and I went without a lot of things. I was determined not to give up on my college education so I never took one semester off, I was 9 months pregnant waddling around campus and had Tanner 2 weeks after my finals and went back to school the next semester while taking care of a 3 month old..and waiting tables 4 nights a week, on my own..I never recieved one penny of child support for Tanner until he was 7 years old, not one red cent. I tried but his dad was a jerk and as soon as the state would send in a wage withholding to his employer, he would quit and get a new job.
My parents did pay for my education, but I paid for everything else, my car, my insurance. my rent(I had a roommate), food, a babysitter.. everything I paid for. My life was very hard for the first 2 years of Tanner's life! It was an everyday struggle to figure out where the money was going to come from, but somehow some way, I made it happen. Once I got out of school and got a good paying job, life got much better and then I met Rick when Tanner was 3 and life has gotten even better. But I never forget the days of struggle and I have so much empathy towards all people who are going through struggles like that. I will never forget how hard and scary that time was. But at the sametime that struggle made me the woman I am today a strong person who will do whatever it takes to care for myself and my family when it comes down to it. I think we DEFINITELY need a welfare pogram, but I do think it needs GRAVE reform. It needs to be a temporary enhancement, not a way of life. I think that there needs to be a timeframe. I think when each new case is accepted, then the caseworker needs to help that family come up with a plan of action to turn things around. It hink the system needs to be tweaked to work for those families who are struggling but are working. I have a friend with twins, she makes decent money but with 2 in daycare, 2 on formula, 2 in diapers, a car payment, rent, insurance..blah blah blah..she has no money left to live on and she could really use food stamps or something to help her..but the system won't help her and that's sad, she goes to work everyday and she isn't asking for handouts while she sits at home, she's trying to make this work and falling a little bit short and needs a little help to fill the gap each month. Those are the people who need help the most, but the system won't help those who are trying to help themselves.
Somehow some way I also think there needs to be something implemented where the government says, okay we'll help you while you're down and can't provide for your family, but if you have another child before you're back on your feet..you should be booted from the system(maybe that's the republican coming out in me..lol) but if you can't provide for your exisiting family why oh why would you elect to have more??? That get's my goat!

All of that said, there are so many people who truely do need this system, but I think it is the duty of our government to create a welfare program that enables people rather than traps them in it!

mammag replied:
Point to one post in here where my self or anyone else has said that no one should get it...... As you could see, if you truly read the ignorant posts, no one said anything of the sort. Read carefully before speaking please!!!!

mammag replied:

I'm not sure of your purpose of this statement....... Are you saying because they were black or "white trash" they hadn't paid taxes or worked hard in their lives? Surely you are not.....

I will state one more time, for the record, I do NOT think no one should get it.

Up until this point, everyone had done a fine job of not insulting anyone.....I must say I take offense to your comments.

mammag replied: And another thing......(you've raised my cackles....sorry).....



Yes, you were the ideal recipient........ this is what the "republicans" are saying. A limited time until they get back on their feet but no more using it as income replacement.

And as far as you receiving assistance for childcare......I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but.....why did you let yourself get pregnant if you couldn't afford childcare for one?

MommyToAshley replied:
I had edited a few comments to take out the name calling, but you are entilted to your opinion just like anyone else... we just don't need the insults.

I am a republican and I don't think that you really listened to what the other people here have said. I don't think anyone really said "suck it up" ... in fact, most of us agree there is a reason for welfare. I just don't happen to think it is working the way it is. There are a lot of people that were in your situation that weren't able to get a job and support their family. What about the single Moms that Brenda brought up. I believe welfare should help her through a tight spot, but in the meantime it should also give her daycare and help her to train or educate herself so that she CAN get a job on her own. (Welfare should not become a way of supporting your family) You heard people talk about the fact that they had to work 40 hours to get the supplement check... but where is the Dad? I think he should be putting in his 40 hours or go to jail.. unless he is physically unable to do so. This is just one example of where I think people are misinformed because they listen to the labels and stereotypes and don't really look at the policies, issues, and where the candidates really stand on the issues. I don't believe in the "suck it up" policy and that is not what republicans stand for.

I also happen to believe in privatizing social security.... does that mean that I want to take social security away from the elderly? Heck no... it just means that it is a solution to fixing a broken system.

I believe in school vouchers.... does that mean that I don't want poor children to receive the same education as rich children as some would state. Heck no! In fact, just the opposite. It would open up educational opportunities to these students that normally would be in the poorer inner-city schools. We'd end up with more accountability for teachers and schools because there would be competition just like in the business world. Has anyone taken a look at the results from the areas that have tried school vouchers???

As for taxes... well, I have been in the situation where I have made less money because I worked harder and moved up a tax bracket. What do you think that does to motivate a person to better themselves? So, I happen to side with the republican here. DH and I have different political views, and I have listened to his comments on a national SALES tax instead of an income tax. It makes sense to me, I only have a few reservations but that is a whole other topic. But, I was willing to listen to what he has to say and think for myself that "yeah, he has some points here"

I could go on and on, and would love to discuss any issue you want, but it's important to take a step back and stop the labeling and look at the issues. I know I have learned a lot by REALLY listening to what everyone here has to say.

TeagansMom609 replied: Well this is why religion, abortion, and politics are bad to talk about. It sounds like a few people are getting their heart rate going, and their blood pressure up over a post on the internet. Thats all im going to say, I will not waste my time arguing with people on AOL. Im not going to read posts that are million miles long, find things I want to quote and respond. I honestly dont have the time nor want to have the time to sit on my computer and post a book over and over just to make myself feel better. Sorry!

Now im going to get off of my computer, go do something constructive, being it is a Saturday, and brush my shoulder off.

mammag replied: If you didn't want to take the time to read the posts perhaps you should have refrained from throwing insults....

Josie83 replied:
In that case - and with all due respect - maybe you shouldn't have entered into the argument/debate at all . . . because the people involved in the debate have been looking through everything carefully and getting involved in it because its something important and interesting to them. if you didn't want to read it all or get involved with it . . . maybe you shouldn't have posted such strong opinions. I'm sorry if that's blunt and rude of me to say, but that's the exact reason why i kept out of this debate - because its not something that I feel I can comment on. So I didn't. But I have to say, I have been dipping in and out of it and its good to see that such a healthy debate can take place - with so many intelligent and well-spoken people being involved! xx

mckayleesmom replied:
Everyone was doing just fine..not insulting people,,until you got heated. I think you should have read exactly what we were trying to say..You jumped way off base on what we believe. Did you actually read the whole origional post by Jeanie? She never said the people that needed help didn't deserve it....she is talking about people that take and take and take,,,but don't try to help themselves at all. Nobody was being hateful..just speaking there views in a civilized manner...

MommyToAshley replied: Jeanne,

I went back and read your original post today, and read it completely different then how I had originally read it. Even though I didn't comment on it, I read the post to mean something similar as Ed stated. I think the first time I read your post, I had skipped over a word and that made a big difference in how I interpreted the entire meaning of your message. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I should have known you better than that. It just goes to show you how easily this kind of thing can happen on the internet.

So, I want to thank you for asking a very thought provoking question. I don't think many of us will change our political views based on this conversation, but I do have a greater understanding of why some people believe the way they do. When issues such as these come up, I have a hard time understanding why people don't see the things the same way I do.... I mean it all makes sense to me. But, it's conversations like these that bring a sense of understanding... not necessarily agreement on the issues, but an understanding of WHY a person feels a certain way. That's a start, right?


There's got to be a third party candidate out there with all the answers.

coasterqueen replied:
I'm sorry you were offended. I do think a system should be in place to help those in need, just like others have said. Just not welfare because it isn't working for most the way it should be.

At least in our state it's very easy to get it. Like my aunt who just kept having babies to get more money. Not sure how she thought that was gonna help out, except she used that money for drugs not her children. Now her children are either drug addicts or living the same as she. Where was the system then? I think the system hurt so many people like this than helped them.

Then there is peole like my SIL, who got pg by her boyfriend. She was making ok money and living at home with FIL. Somehow, don't know how, but she was able to get WIC and other financial assistance (welfare). I know she mentioned many times that she told them the father wasn't in the picture. I guess that is an easy thing to say, even though he lived there with them. But since they weren't married I guess they could get away with that.

As far as the comment "we pay our taxes, why not use it when you really need it. That's what it's there for". I don't know why but that comment strikes a chord with me. Um, I pay taxes, LOTS of taxes.......but I don't have the opinion "I pay my taxes, why not use it". I just think that's a bad attitude to have. I don't know how to explain how I feel about that, so I won't in the interest of not hurting anyone's feelings. But I guess in college when I could have used this assistance Dh and I went into credit card debt to live until we could make ends meet instead. We are still paying for that to this day but it was a choice I guess.

I must say I'm guilty of looking at the stereotypical people who receive assistance like welfare and such. I guess that's because they are all around me (family and all). Nothing gets my goat even more than a person standing in line at the grocery store, wearing better clothes and jewelry than I am, but using food stamps. WTH???? Never understood that one. That one really opened my eyes in college when Dh and I would about cry every time we'd go to the grocery store to get a bit of food to get by on and we see people like that.

I also think there is nothing wrong with getting assistance for daycare if you need it. I think people should get this kind of assistance when needed. What I hate seeing is those who get it, but still go shopping for clothes, go on vacations, dress their kids in really nice clothes, getting them more toys than a child really needs and go out for evenings out......when my tax money is helping to give them that assistance. Not everyone receiving this is doing this but there are some that do. There needs to be a system in place to NOT let those people take advantage of it.

The funny thing is a lot of democrats I've talked to, especially on the welfare system, can't stand to see those cheating it either. So IMO I'm not sure the welfare system thing is a republican vs. democrat issue. I know a lot of democrats that want to see it changed so those who are actually deserving are getting it and that we are helping these people get back on their feet. The welfare system brings too many people down and IMO it's a cycle that passes down generation after generation for those on it.

coasterqueen replied:
BTW, I just have to say since I posted first to this thread after Jeanne's question. I must say I'm the guilty party for veering off subject.

redchief replied:
What's AOL?

Oops... off topic. Sorry.

jcc64 replied: Thanks Dee Dee, (and Ed, too) for understanding what was at the heart of the inquiry. I was ruminating on this thread in the shower this morning (guess we all do a lot of thinking in the shower, huh, Cary), and I came to exactly the same conclusion you just put forth so eloquently. In no way would I ever try to "convert" anyone to my ways. When I was younger, believe me, I was far less restrained. But at 40 yrs old, I finally realized that's not my right or responsibility. It is my job to approach people with as little prejudice as possible, and if I'm being completely honest, I don't always do as good a job as I'd like. I, like you, Dee Dee, sometimes just can't understand why "people" can't see that my arguments make sense, and I do tend to dismiss the Republican arguments about social justice as empty promises. I sought, and received, a very thorough understanding delivered by thoughtful people whom I respect immensely.
I think the one thing we all agreed upon was the fact that the welfare system, as it is currently administered, isn't adequately addressing the problems of impoverished children. Maybe another time, we can look at why that system is so dysfunctional ( a lack of funding, perhaps?). But for the time being, thank you all for sharing your views and listening to mine.

Btw- I vote for Cary as the 3rd party candidate. I like her ideas about designating our taxes for pet projects!

mummy2girls replied:
k i take a little offense to that one. i am having to get childcare subsidy for jenna. The government pays 380- and i pay the remanider which is 180. Jenna was planned yes but what i planned to do with childcare that fell through.

kit_kats_mom replied: Position totally unequivocally not accepted. I'm Waaaaay too honest to be in politics & I’m really awful at sugar coating stuff.

I have learned a lot from this discussion. Yes, I’ve seen welfare abuse but I was also on the receiving end of food stamps for a short time as a child. Quick question though. If memory serves right, wasn’t it Clinton who started the welfare reform act?

redchief replied:
Here, here Jeanne... Would that I could be so level-headed. I shall endeavor to try to be so.

MommyToAshley replied:
You are probably right, we should save this for another time, but I lack the self control not to chime in. I don't think funding is the problem. I don't think it will matter how much money we throw at the problem until we fix how the money is spent. Please allow me give an example that has a face to it.

My cousin has not made the wisest choices when it comes to men and using birth control. She has 4 children by 4 different fathers... two are in jail and the other is dead from a gun fight. It's not my place to judge her, but she will admit that she did not make the wisest choices. But, the children are here now I don't want to see them suffer. My cousin had been and was on assistance for a very long time. She had housing provided, food stamps, money, etc. But, last year she had her assistance cut off. My Aunt (her mother) told her that she could move in with her on one condition... she either got a job or went to school. She decided to go to school and now has a decent job and is supporting her kids on her own. She was on assistance for over ten years and it was not until the assistance was cut off and she was faced with responsibility that she went to school. Before anyone starts yelling at me, I don't think this is the right way to do it. Because, if my Aunt had not been there, I don't know what would have happened to those poor children. But, in my opinion, my Aunt did what our welfare system claims it does.... provide a support system. If the money that was just thrown at my cousin had been used to pay for childcare and education then she probably would have been off assistance years ago. But, that would take time and involvement from people in the community... another arguement for faith based initiatives. It may cost more money in the beginning to have such a program, but I honestly believe it would cost less tax dollars in the end.

MommyToAshley replied:

Boys r us replied: That's a very good point Dee Dee and I think in the end, no matter what classification we give ourselves, this is what we all want..to see a program that helps families who are receiving assistance..help them become educated, find a better job, help them provide daycare while they take college courses. I also would like to see father's to children raised by single mother's held responsible for some of the bill footed to the single mom's! If the mother is on ANY KIND of assistance b/c the father isn't helping then he needs to somehow be held accountable for reimbursing the government for a portion of the support provided to the mother and child(ren).

jcc64 replied: I'm totally down with job training, education grants, childcare subsidies, whatever it takes. This turned into a debate about welfare, (and yes, Cary, it was Clinton that initiated welfare reform) but I never said I was a fan of simply throwing money at people as a long term solution. The one thing that concerns me is that not everyone has that last ditch person like your Aunt. Those are the children I'm talking about, the ones who are without a net through no fault of their own. And I feel that if the public assistance program wasn't perpetually starved for funding, it might be more efficiently monitored so that only the right people are receiving benefits. I'm sure we've all heard the horror stories about overburdened caseworkers in child abuse cases- if there were more caseworkers, there'd be more oversight, and better use of taxpayers' money.
Anyway, I hear what you're saying, don't necessarily disagree with it, but I don't think it's the whole story.

MommyToAshley replied: I don't want to start another debate, but Regan actually proposed the welfare reform that Clinton signed off on. Just look Regan's ideas for welfare reform as govener. But, does it really matter who's idea it was... one thing we all agree on is that it doesn't work.

SOUTHERN MOMMY replied:
With all due respect please don't take this wrong and also note that i have no comment on this thread i feel (to each his own) and my mom always had this saying that i think of almost everytime i post on a debating topic. here it is It is better to remain silent and be thought of as ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all dought (sp?)JMO

mammag replied:
It's funny you posted this because that exact quote came to mind for me as well...

SOUTHERN MOMMY replied:
Well they say great minds think alike BTW sorry to get you guys off the topic at hand .Carry on

mammag replied:

To bring it back to the original point.......How can I consider myself empathetic and still be a Republican......anyone who knows me would consider me empathetic. My dh has seen me cry over some of the posts on here....has seen me tear up talking about a news story.....I feel for anyone going through a rough time. I again encourage all of you to read the Republican platform. Allow yourself to look at it with an open mind and see that we are not trying to take from the poor and give to the wealthy. We want to empower people to be better than they are now or thought they could be. We are a party of hope. Yes, we believe in personal responsibility but we are not going to sit by and watch children starve. I could take it into a whole other realm by asking where is the compassion for the unborn child in the democratic party.....but I won't.... or did I just..... oh never mind....

I am not as judgemental as you may think. I have my opinions of right and wrong but I know that in the end we will all meet our maker and I will face him for things I've done as well as the next. I am quite far from perfect to be honest and there are a lot of things that I would love to change about myself......but I know one thing to be true and have been told by many people.....I have a big heart, and I wear it on my sleave.

I'm sorry for hurting anyone with my comment about the childcare assistance....had I not been upset about the "ignorant" and "kiss my you know what" comment, I probably would have held my tongue. I still feel it was a valid question, and I stand by that. I tend to speak my mind more freely when my intelligence, intentions, and heart are being questioned.

So I'll leave it at that now. Man!, I really get going, don't I?

Maddie&EthansMom replied: WOW! What a great topic! I'm VERY pleased with how well everyone kept it together. I learned so much by reading thru this. I was a little afraid to open it, but I'm glad I did.

My mother and I were just talking about Welfare yesterday. That's funny that it was a topic on the board, too.

I have nothing to add to the conversation. Jeanie took the words right out of my mouth.

MommyToAshley replied:
I agree that it isn't the whole picture, I was just giving one example. And, I don't think everyone on assistance is like the example I gave. Some people are in need for reasons beyond their own control, and probably would have jumped at the opportunity to better their education or find a job and be self-supportive. And, I realize there are also people gettting assistance that doesn't need it and is trying to cheat the system. The problem I suppose is that there isn't one solution because everyone can't be treated in the same manner.

Jeanne, I think we agree up to this point, but from what I understand you think that we need to better fund the welfare program so that we have better trained case workers and the manpower to oversee the system. This is where I differ, I think that the gov't tends to treat everyone like a number, which is why I think community involvement is needed. I really don't understand the objections to faith based initiatives. Again, I respect your opinion, I think I understand it, but I just differ on where I believe we should focus our efforts and funds.

P.S. Sorry I am probably the one that got us off topic again on a welfare discussion.