I just need to get this off my chest - you don't have to read or respond

coasterqueen wrote: You don't have to read, I just have to get this out of me.

I feel like I am just going to burst into tears. I just don't know how much longer I can take things the way they are. I feel so run down, tired, stretched into too many pieces.

Kylie is so high needs I just don't know what to do. I get so frustrated. At 16 months she still nurses every 2 hours at night. This would be perfectly fine with me if she wouldn't scream when she wanted to nurse. She used to just tug on my shirt or softly wimper, but for months now it's a full out scream. We co-sleep so I'm right there. Why does she have to scream? It gets me frustrated and all tense that I have trouble getting back to sleep and just when I finally do get back to sleep she's screaming again to nurse. I love nursing and co-sleeping but this situation is just killing me literally. Everyone says if you co-sleep it makes things so much easier, you are not as tired. Well I know I've said in the past I look at the clock, but even when I'm not looking at the clock her screaming just completely gets me so tense and frustrated I can't sleep as well.

Then there is like the last two nights when she wakes up screaming every 1/2 hour all night long for no apparent reason. I've tried to figure out what it is and I've gone down the list and can't figure out why she would be doing this. It's not night terrors, either. I just don't know how to describe her *noise*. And every 1/2 hour when she would wake up I would try to nurse her thinking that is what it is and she doesn't want to nurse every time. She does this same screaming when she is awake for EVERYTHING! Instead of pointing to something or saying something or jumping up and down..Kylie has to scream for everything. If she wants water she SCREAMS, if she wants nursed she SCREAMS, if she wants to be held she SCREAMS, if she can't see where I'm at she SCREAMS.

DH helps as much as he can in these situations but she won't let him, especially during the night. She will only sleep with me and she only wants me to comfort her whether it be nursing or just holding. I always have to put her to bed. I can't get out of bed in the morning while she's asleep or she wakes up which results in her not getting enough sleep. When I'm getting ready for work in the morning I have to rush like a mad woman to get a shower, dry my hair, etc, etc while daddy keeps her busy. And sometimes she will let him and sometimes she just screams until I come be with her. If I let her in the bathroom while I am getting ready she screams wanting me to hold her, which means I can't get ready.

I can't go to the bathroom by myself. She has to go with me every time, even when daddy is there, she'll scream if I don't take her with me. DH plays with her and they have a great time, but she constantly wants me and me for everything.

My job is in the PIT now. I can't concentrate at work. I'm tired. I have to take breaks to pump. I am making huge errors. I can't go away for work trips overnight without taking DH and DD and that's not possible without DH taking no pay and we can't do that. I can't do evening fundraisers for work on occassion because Kylie will be fussing if I'm not there to nurse her or just be with her.

DH says she says "mama" for almost a 1/2 hour every night until I walk in the door from work and then I can't get both feet in the door, she's screaming wanting me to nurse her or hold her.

My marriage is in the tanker. We have no sex life, I'm just too tired when we actually have time. I resent my husband for all of my frustrations. I am starting to resent Kylie. I get frustrated with her and that makes me sad. Dh and I constantly are arguing over BF and parenting issues in general. He was all on board with me on what we were going to do,etc, and always says he is after we argue about it, but he is always saying Kylie is going to be this way until I stop nursing and stop sleeping with her. He was against CIO but is becoming more and more for it. I hate to admit this, but this morning I almost convinced myself that CIO would be best in this case. I just keep telling DH it's gotta get better. She has to stop being so clingy, so needy someday. To think we want to have another baby this summer too.

I wouldn't mind the way she is if I could understand it. Everyone I talk to, all my friends, their babies are so calm, loving, not screaming, etc, etc, etc, etc...all the things that Kylie is not. I just feel awful that I want a baby like theirs. Our friends want nothing to do with us because Kylie is so horrible when they are around. They look at DH and me and think we are horrible parents that we can't "deal" with our child because she is this way. I try having a conversation with them about her and they look at me like "are you trying to convince yourself that she is an angel? yeah right!" At the last minute this past weekend we went to visit some friends that we haven't seen in a long time. They heard us talk over the phone about how it's great to co-sleep, nurse, not CIO, etc, etc, etc. then we see them and their like "no way do I want to do those things, look at your child" (Their pg right now).

My parents don't even want to watch Kylie that often because she is fussy 24/7. They'll call and say "is Kylie in a good mood?" If she's not they don't want to see her, if she is they will. I feel like I am constantly having to "explain" to people that my child is really isn't all that bad she is just fussy 24/7.

She has a lot of happy times, too, but I am just so frustrated and exhausted from all these screaming sleepless moments.

You know every day I wake up and say "ok Karen, you can do this. Stay calm. Today is going to be a better day. You can handle this." And I do pretty good until I come home and see her. Yes, I just love when she runs to me and wants me to hold her. I could do without the screaming, though. But as soon as I put her down to do this or that or go to the bathroom, etc she is in screaming mode the rest of the night whether or not I am devoting all my attention to her or not. Then I say to myself "I just can't take one more day of this". Then nightime rolls around, we co-sleep, she screams every 2 hours to nurse and I say to myself "I am going to burst, I just can't take another second of this". But then I wake up and tell myself it's a new day, change could come. I've been saying this for 16 months now.

I thought writing my feelings down would help but it's not. I just can't seem to get out what very well how I feel or what I am going through. I'm just rambling so I will say bye for now.

jen replied: Karen all I can offer is big I can see why you are frustrated. It sounds like you need a BIG break. I am so sorry. Please keep venting. Someone on the board will give you some good advice, I wish I could! I do know from what I read and pictures and everything you are a great mom and parent and you shouldn't be judged by other people based on how kylie acts, every baby has different needs and has their own mind. You are giving more of yourself unselfishly than most other moms are even considering and you should take great pride in that. And remind those that are quick to judge you.

We are all here for you sweetie!

jdkjd replied: I can definitely understand your frustration. I completely admire your determination to co-sleep, to continue breatfeeding and to not CIO. But I wonder if these methods are just not working for you and Kylie. I am not trying to undermine your ideals, but trying to brainstorm as to what you could change to help your family.

Your husband needs you too, and you need him and it sounds like the current situation is hurting your relationship in ways that could become much worse.

If you can't leave the room ever without her, it sounds like you need to help her get used to not getting all of her needs satisfied by you, i.e. food, sleep and comfort. Your DH sounds like he wants to help and you certainly need to be able to function.

These are only ideas but you might want to consider (1) weaning, (2) a modified CIO (just letting her cry for short periods of time) where you get her used to sleeping alone during naps, then at night, and (3) Daddy-comforting. The problem with number 3 is that he won't be able to help unless you are not there which would necessitate #1 or #2.

I personally have had to stop myself from running in every time Bailey cries with her Daddy. The Daddy's have to have time to figure out their own way of being the "comforter."

Have you talked to your pediatrician? Maybe they have some ideas on how to help her sleep, etc.?

If you only wanted to vent, and not have responses, please disregard. I am a firm believer in the idea that you (the mommy) knows what is best for you and your family.

Just know that I am here in support no matter what.

Much love and sympathy...

ediep replied: Oh Karen, I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time. I wish I could offer some advice....here are some
You are doing a wonderful job as a mom....working, pumping, bf, co-sleeping...great job!!!!

I agree with jdkjd's suggestions. I would talk to her ped and maybe some "sleeping message boards" or books. Have you read no cry sleep solutions or healthy sleep habits, happy baby or the baby whisperer. I found them helpful with Jason.

How is she eating during the day? Is it really possible that she is hungry all night?

I hope some others have some more advice for you

amynicole21 replied: Oh Karen! I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time. In a way, I do think it is the age our kiddos are at - no way to express themselves adequately, etc. Sophia is this way sometimes, too.

The one thing I could think of while reading your post was that you may want to consider really working on night weaning. It will be even worse than it is right now for about a week or so, but if she can learn to comfort herself a little it should carry over to her waking hours too. It may teach her to be less dependant upon you to calm her down. You don't have to use CIO to night wean her, either. At least in my definition of the word. If you are holding and comforting her when she is crying, it really isn't CIO. Walking her around the house while she screams at night is horrible - trust me, we've tried it. But it did work for us until Sophia got sick and I went out of town. We're back to nursing about 2x a night now and hoping to night-wean her again in the next few weeks.

Good luck and lots of hugs coming your way. It really sounds like you need a break. Feel free to vent to us anytime

DansMom replied: We don't have it nearly as bad as you do, yet everything you describe resonates: being a zombie at work, taking time to pump at work, making huge mistakes, having no sex life, not being able to go anywhere in the evening or travel, being up every two hours, having parenting disagreements with DH because non-AP kids we know seem to be less clingy and needy, having a koala bear clinging to me as soon as I have one foot in the door. Daniel doesn't scream though, and has been communicating pretty well with signs and words, and does transition to another person with some coaxing and trickery. I hope things get better for you soon---keep venting! It's healthy.

kit_kats_mom replied: Karen, you sound very frusterated. We have gone through all of this and I know exactly what you mean. It is so much better when you can get some sleep. You are running yourself ragged and it is understandable that you would need to vent.
barring any health issues, you may just need to make some changes.

We share alot of the same ideals: co-sleeping, bfding etc. and I wasn't ready to give any of them up yet. One thing that worked for us was to get K used to DH comforting her. It wasn't easy and there was alot of screaming involved but it is such a relief to let DH calm her down now. Here is what we did, maybe you guys could try it.
We didn't want to let her CIO but we didn't want her to rely soley on me as comforter either. I was just worn out and becoming a pretty mean lady. DH and I discussed it and decided to try a modified CIO approach. I nurse her until 11pm anytime she wakes up but between 11 & 5am, DH has baby duty. If she wakes up, he lays her on his chest and "restrains" her. She cried alot the first few days but now if DH puts her on his chest, she lays her head down and goes to sleep right away. Our thinking was that she may not like not having mommy but at least we aren't leaving her in her crib to cry alone. This way she had her daddy speaking soothing words to her and hugging her. She had no reason to be scared but she could be upset. I can't change what's in her brain but we can be there to support her.

Maybe that will work for you guys. If you try it, just make sure DH is prepared for a few nights of screaming and you might just want to leave, or get a good movie. Leave them alone though to work through it.

HTH I am a firm believer in the "if you resent it, change it" theory. Kylie is just a toddler. She is not evil, she is not even abnormal. You have met all of her needs and she is just having a problem seperating from you.

jem0622 replied: Sweetie...I do understand. But listen to me...you need sleep. More sleep. Do you understand that living on that kind of deprivation is like a walking drunk? I am not kidding.

There are gentle ways of helping her sleep. And it may require getting away from the cosleeping arrangement. I am not trying to upset you, please understand that.

I did cosleep w/ Nathan (now 4), but only for a year. Gabe was far less b/c DH wasn't sleeping and he is home during the day with the boys.

Let me dig up that link and post it. It is a gentle approach and may be more welcome for you. Clearly the nursing every 2 hrs is frustrating her and you. Both of you need rest!

Here is the thread w/ the info:
********start*******************
DS used to wake up every hour to nurse. If I tried to put him off, well--lets just say no matter how much I didn't wan't to nurse, it wasn't worth the fight. But I did finally night wean him and I can't tell you how much of a positive difference it made.

I used Dr. Jay Gordon's method. The first night was beyond bad and he yelled for an hour (but I was holding him and comforting him. He was simply mad). It got much easier from there and by night 4 we had no struggles. It's worth a try. If its not for you, scrap it and go back to what you were doing. We are even co-sleeping, still. Here is the link: http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm
************end******************

Schnoogly replied: OH man, I was about to come here and write the exact same post. I cannot tell you how many times a day I look at him and all I feel is utter resentment, hatred, and rage. Yep, hatred. I wanted to respond to this earlier but I've spent the last 2 hours trying to get Iain to take a nap. He's still not asleep by the way.


I don't want to offend anyone who has offered kind advice and support but unless you live with a HN child you really don't understand. Yeah, not cosleeping would probably help her sleep better, but if the child isn't ready the process of extricating her from your bed is just horrific. Trust me, we tried this. Letting HN kids cry is also plain worthless. They don't stop. Seriously, they don't. They would cry for 20 hours, not 20 minutes. They CANNOT put themselves to sleep or self soothe in any way. Trust me, we tried this.

The advice I will offer is to let (er, MAKE) your DH help more. She CAN get used to sleeping with him. It is going to be awful and horrible for a couple of weeks but she can. A partial nightweaning with your DH might be a slow and gentle way to do it. In some ways we are lucky that we weren't able to EBF, and DH has taken Iain almost all the time he's home since Iain was tiny. Iain is very used to being with his dad. For the past couple of months DH sleeps with him every other night. If he didn't do this I am not kidding when I say I would be dead or in the hospital by now.

And I empathize with you about the job. I quit mine, I couldn't handle it anymore. And my mom won't watch him either. The times she is here I do most of the baby care and you can't believe how fast she takes off when she's had enough. She keeps telling me she is sorry and proud of me, but that doesn't really help kwim??

Also, go get yourself some meds. I think all High Need children should come with supplies of prozac or the like for both parents. They are definitely helping me (or did, when I took them. I just got some more)

kit_kats_mom replied:
Yup, Yup, Yup. I've had those feelings too. It it like you think it then instant guilt. Not a good thing. ITA with getting DH to help. You really, really need to get some rest.

I was also going to ask you about the possibility of being able to change jobs, take a leave of absence, or some vacation time. I think that living with a HN toddler is a full-time job in itself. I WAH but I still take K to a home care ctr 2 days a week. Originally it was so I could work but lately, I've been napping. I think that's helped my attitude a bit.

MommyToAshley replied: (((HUGS)))(((HUGS)))(((HUGS))) and more (((HUGS)))

I am so sorry that you are going through this! But, first of all, let me say that you shouldn't blame yourself. You are a good Mommy.... some babies are just more challenging and needier than others. You should not be so hard on yourself. And, I am sorry that others are judging you. The couple that is PG now may have a greater understanding of what you are going through once they have their baby. I had a "master plan" when I was PG, and boy was I ever in for an awakening when Ashley was born.

I hope you don't mind if I share my experience and say that I agree with the others about the night weaning. Ashley was never really a high needs baby, but she did become dependant on nursing to go back to sleep at night. And, at one point she would wake up every hour or two to nurse. She went through some of the same stages... where she only wanted Mommy. And, DH and I had some of the same disagreements.... he thought I was spoiling her too much. Like you, I was sleep deprived but not willing to do CIO. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a HN baby on top of being sleep deprived! So, around 9 months (when we were sure she was waking up just for comfort and not hunger) we decided to night wean her. I would be happy to share more about our approach if you are interested.... just let me know, but I think you have already gotten some great recommendations.

I also wanted to say that I felt kind of guilty about night weaning Ashley. I didn't want her to think that I was rejecting her or that I loved her any less. I didn't want her to think that I wouldn't be there when she needed me. But, I decided that it was more unhealthy for her to have a Mommy that was sleep deprived and I was sure that she could pick up that I was not enjoying the middle of the night nursings. Babies/Toddlers can pick up on those things and I thought she would take that as more of a personal rejection if I continued to nurse through the night, resenting it, then if I night weaned her.

As for the screaming... ITA that it may just be the age thing. I remember reading that at this age, they will test us over and over again. And, that they have learned what sounds (a whine, a scream, a certain cry) that gets to us.... gets our attention and gets what they want. For Ashley, she does this whiney half cry. I can image that for a HN child, it would be only more intense. I have even seen Ashley stop in the middle of her whine and look to see if I was paying attention and then going back to it. So, I do one of two things. I try to either ignore it, but more often, I say, "Ashley what do you want?" And, she will stop her whining and either point or say what she wants (if she can say the words). I may not always give her what she wants, but I think that it helps that she has found another way to express herself. I don't know if it will work with a HN child, but it has done wonders in cutting down the tantrums and whiney cries with Ashley.

I hope I haven't offended you by sharing what has worked with Ashley. I don't want you to think that I assume to understand what it is like to have a HN child, but I have experienced some of the things on a smaller scale. So, I thought it might be helpful to share what has worked with Ashley. And, there are some things that work in our family that don't in others. For example, even though Ashley sleeps in her own bed through the night, she has to take a nap with either DH or I. Usually it is DH, but it works out ok because one of us usually needs some down time anyways. But, this works out for us because both of us are home, and the other one can get some things done.

I am sorry this was so long... but if you remember only one thing from my major ramble, I hope you remember that you are a good mommy and having a HN child is not your fault and you or your DH are not to blame. I wish I could be there to give you a great big hug and even watch Kylie for the afternoon so you could rest.

(((HUGS)))(((HUGS)))(((HUGS))) and more (((HUGS)))

Schnoogly replied: M2A, it is nice for me at least to hear your experience--I sometimes have this rosy impression that "typical" toddlers are all smiles and hugs, and it is good to be reminded that they're not.

And I often think I am responding too quickly, and have experimented with not responding as quickly, or doing the "You're OK, mommy is washing dishes right now and I know you're upset and I'll pick you up very soon" in a calm voice, but he doesn't really stop to see if I'm watching--he's too overcome with panic--and he won't stop at all. It just escalates until I pick him up, and the longer I wait the longer it takes to calm him down.

I know Iain is 3 months younger than your toddlers and doesn't really have the communication skills yet--I'm hoping that in a few months he'll be able to tell me what he wants better. But I think half the problem is that he doesn't know what he wants--he just wants to be held and comforted. Or he's tired and won't sleep and that makes everything worse. I don't know if the other HN toddlers are like this but my experience has been that waiting just makes it worse.

I posted about this response time issue on another board and described how he has changed over the year since I couldn't put him down even for a second and someone reminded me that he has matured--just a lot more slowly than most babies and too slowly for me of course. When he was 3-4 months old I couldn't imagine him ever playing on the floor by himself, but he does do this now. If I leave the room, it's all over (usually) but this is a major accomplishment for him.

Karen, maybe thinking about the ways Kylie has grown might help you too?

coasterqueen replied: Thank you everyone for your hugs, support and advice. No one has offended me and I really appreciate the advice given. I will take all of your advice into consideration.

I do agree with Schnoogly that Kylie will not stop crying if we tried CIO. We've tried ignoring her before when she throws a tantrum in the car and she will just scream and scream and scream and not stop. One night when we tried having sis spend the night with Kylie, she just sat there and cried and cried and cried. Kylie must not understand that she has to just give up at some point, lol.

Plus I have the worst personality trait of not being able to forgive myself. I don't know if I could forgive myself for letting her even do a "moderate" form of CIO, especially if I or DH are holding her letting her cry and she looks up at me with that look of "mommy, daddy why are you letting me cry, I need you?". KWIM I just don't forgive myself for anything. I know that is a trait I should desperately work on and maybe my life would be A LOT easier, lol.

Same with weaning, but I am not ruling that out yet. I have noticed Kylie is nursing more for comfort at night than for nutrition and that has just happened in the last month. We do want to go on a small weekend trip in June and I fully intend to go on it so it may come down to night weaning. I'm just putting that off a bit longer hoping she'll miraculously change, but I know down deep she won't. *SIGH*

It has been suggested to me that Kylie might be allergic to dairy in my diet and in hers, so we are looking into that. It has been suggested that this is causing her "actions". Not sure if I understand it all, but I am willing to research it further. We have eliminated all "obvious" dairy from her diet and I *try* to eliminate it from mine. We will give that three weeks, see if there is any improvement and if not then we have to go with eliminating all the "hidden" dairy from our diets. Basically I won't be able to eat anything Do you know all the things that have dairy in it? UGH!

Schnoogly, it is so nice to know I am not alone. I thought your son was HN, but you know how it is, you sometimes just feel so all alone and find yourself asking the question "why me?" One both of us probably will never have an answer for.

I would love to quit my job but it is out of the question financially. We got into a lot of debt in college, etc and I will have to work until I die, lol. I would find another job, but this is the first job I've found that is so lenient with having children, calling in sick at last minute when Kylie is sick etc etc etc. KWIM

Again, I do appreciate EVERYONE's advice and I am so lucky to have people like you here to support me and offer me so many hugs I have not ruled out any of them completely, just need to find it in me to figure out what I can live with and what I can't Please pray that this dairy elim diet gives us some answers

to all of you!

kimberley replied: Karen! I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. i want to offer my support and my experience that you are not alone and it does get better in time. I have had feelings of utter frustration, failure and contempt for the little baby boy i gave birth to that i was supposed to love unconditionally... but it was hard to. night weaning did help alleviate a little bit of my stress but it was torture to get through. i actually left the house because i couldn't stand it... but it did get better.




you are not offending anyone, you are absolutely right! James always has been and still is HN. from birth he never cried... just screamed as though someone was killing him. there was nothing i could do to comfort him most of the time except just be with him 24/7 which drove me nuts! his dad stepped up and took more time with him and that is the only way i have ever slept in the past almost 6yrs. you need to get a break or you will go crazy. i never tried meds but if someone offered them to me at the time, i would have gladly taken them. it has really only been the past year that James has really calmed down and become loving and has constructively communicated his feelings. his rage was worse than mine and i often wonder if that is where he learned it. but it isn't my fault, it isn't your fault... we just gave birth to high needs babies.

good luck with the weaning and more hugs for you!

coasterqueen replied:
Kylie has "ok" communication skills for her age at least, but chooses to scream instead. UGH! I keep thinking the older she gets the easier it will be, but we'll see. Kylie does scream mostly because she doesn't know what she wants either. I think that's the problem, lol.

I KWIM, I never thought I would be able to set Kylie down for a nap without holding her and then poof it just happened one day. It took almost 8 months but it happened. Same with a lot of other things. As you know it is just so hard to give it time. I tell myself every day that things will change, it will, but that time just doesn't come fast enough for me sometimes, lol.

One day, though, we will be able to laugh about all of this. Right?

MomToMany replied: Lots of hugs to you, Karen! I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. I have no idea what it's like to be with a HN child, so I'm not going to offer any ideas or suggestions. Just want you to know that we're here for you to cry/vent, and we do care about what's happening in your life. I really wish there was something I could do for you!

Lots more hugs for you!!

Schnoogly replied: Oh I had one more suggestion for helping her get used to being with DH--distraction. Get a new toy and bring it out when she cries for you or if she likes to be outside have DH take her for a walk alone. Or they go grocery shopping and bring earplugs and ignore everyone. Anything that helps her forget you're not there. Also, does she like water or baths? Iain loves to take showers with us, he just plays with the water and the curtain. Maybe K. would like taking a shower with her dad? Then she can follow him to the bathroom too

Schnoogly replied: I just read your other post--I would start first with just eliminating regular milk. There are more proteins in the regular milk than in cheese/yogurt. Most kids who are sensitive to milk will be OK with yogurt or cheese in your diet. Others not, and a few even can't take the casein in other processed foods. But from our experience, and your description, I'm sorry to say that it doesn't sound like a food allergy. It sounds like plain old spiritedness to me

I can just tell you what our doctor said when I asked about this at our 1 year appt--I was worried that he was in pain from something and she said that since he is OK when I'm holding him it's not pain, it's plain old separation anxiety. When he was 3 months old he would refuse bottles and scream after eating, and that changed when I gave up dairy and we switched to hypoallergenic formula. He was still the same old clingy baby, but the screaming with feeding/after feeding stopped. That is the difference between HN and allergies IMO.

Anyway, other people have also suggested pediatric chiropractic to me and I want to try it (maybe when we get our tax return, major financial issues now that I'm not working) I have heard some moms say their kid slept 7 hours straight after the first visit. Maybe worth a try?? I'd be sure to go with a pediatric chiropractor or someone experienced with children.

Jamison'smama replied: Also sending hugs!!!

Jamison can be very similar and I have many of the same questions so I am VERY glad you "vented" I need suggestions for night weaning as well. Jamison is only waking up a few times a night but she WILL NOT go back to sleep unless nursed. I understand completely what Schnoogly was saying--we wait and wait and wait but the screaming and crying gets so bad she cannot go back to sleep.---So that is something I need to work on as well. As for the screaming to get what she wants, I have no advice--in fact, I need some as well. M2A stated it well when she said that all kids find something that seems to work for them and then they do it for EVERYTHING. Jamison will do a fake cry and run over an put her head down on the couch or against the wall--as if she was sobbing --but it is only to get her way--or she screams Help Me--which sounds more like Hemme until I help her with whatever--and this is constantly--ALL DAY!!

I try my HARDEST to ignore the negative cues and pay attention when she asks me for something in a non-screaming/whining way--but it is hard to ignore the screaming/whining when that is all they do.



Maybe we can all support each other when we try to night wean. I am not sure how to do it--DH works quite early and I hate the idea of keeping him up half of the night. We also co-sleep--and you are right--it is hard to share with others the joys of BF and Co-sleeping when we are exhausted all the time.

MommytoAshley, I would love to hear how you night weaned.

Mainly I am just wanting to send support and understanding.

Edited to say: about the meds (for you not Kylie )--my DH actually went that route--d/t Jamison -anti--anxiety meds--really do help to take the edge off and maintain calm--just allows him to think and reason a little more clearly in the face of spirited child.

Speaking of a spirited child--my mother got me the book Raising Your Spirited Child --by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka--anyone read it and have opinions?

natjasem replied: Wow, reading your post is unbelieveable. I don't know how you do it. I know we're here for support, but I'm also going to give my opinion as well. You've given your daughter a great 16 months of breastmilk. She's had a great start, but you also need to think about yourself.
I would start the weaning process ASAP because it's only going to get harder as she gets older. There's no reason she can't get through the night without eating. As far as co-sleeping, I have no advice because I think it's crazy. My DD has never slept with me. She loves her crib because it's the only thing she's ever known, and it's her own special area that she feels safe and comfortable in.
My bed is for me and Daddy only! Good luck with everything.

Kirstenmumof3 replied: I'm so sorry your days have turned out like this! I think you should talk to your doctor about all of this and see what he/she could suggest. I've never co-sleeped with any of my children, so I don't know what to offer with that regard, but I do sympathise with you. Claudia is very clingy and only wants mommy when she is home, when I'm away or when she is at Daycare, grandparents or when we have baby sitters come into our home she is fine! I hope this is just a phase and that she outgrows this soon!

A&A'smommy replied: wow you ladies i believe are incredibly wonderful moms!!! i dont have a clue what you are going through but i am here to offer my support and lots of hugs!!!!

Schnoogly replied:
Here is where you make it clear that you don't have a HN child. I didn't intend to cosleep either, I had a bassinet next to our bed. But he would NOT sleep there. These HN kids come out of the womb with extreme personalities--they know what they want and they won't take any coaxing.


Let me be perfectly clear--attachment parenting does NOT make clingy children. I know tons of kids who were APed and are very independent and moved into their own beds without a hassle. I can forward the board link if anyone doubts me. Those of us who AP HN kids do so mostly because it is truly the only way. You have no idea how many moms of HN kids I've talked to who tried and tried for months to put their newborns in a crib and the baby and whole family were just miserable.

My major wake up call when Iain was born was that I thought I was the parent and I would make decisions like where he would sleep, what/when he would eat. ha ha ha. I had no idea he would be so strong willed from the moment of his birth, even full of tubes, monitors, and IVs in the NICU he knew what he wanted and demanded it. We are having a discussion about HN on my other board and I'll post the same links in case anyone wants to know more.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/5/T050100.asp

and for the nightweaning,
http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm

and finally, the nighttime parenting forum at the mothering.commune which is being updated right now but you can find it here this weekend
http://mothering.com/discussions/index.php

coasterqueen replied:
This may sound downright mean, but in some ways I hope it is a dairy allergy because then I know how to handle it, but it's probably not. My mother told me I was allergic to dairy and acted the same way Kylie does and she just didn't give me milk and everything got much better. So I guess there is that *chance* that she has those issues too. I grew out of them and I hear most grow out of them by the age of 2, which isn't that far away.

I just got done talking to dh a bit about this over the phone and I *think* we are going to take her to an allergist to be tested for these allergies. I feel so terrible because I know the tests are kinda painful for a few seconds, but we can find out right away if there is an issue where as this dairy elim diet is a much longer process and I hate to think that this is a dairy prob and it not be after doing all this for weeks and weeks. KWIM We also think she has "outside" allergies, too, so we can get all those questions answered in one fail swoop.

I have heard of pediatric chiropractic being good too. Unfortunatley I worked for a chiropractic association and know to much about them to trust them, lol. And DH definately DOESN'T trust chiropractic. Now that is no different than things we know about regular docs, but won't ever convince DH of that, lol.

I will definately let you know how things with the allergist. I have an appt with my allergist on Monday and will talk more with her about it then and then schedule an appt.

EDIT: I am just curious...have you ever asked yourself "what did I do wrong when I was pg with my baby? was it all the candy I ate, was it this, was it that, was it that I would have the occassional argument with Dh when I was pg causing a needy child, what did I do when I was pg that I shouldn't have done so I don't repeat it next time?" I didn't smoke or drink or take drugs so I know the answers to those questions, but I ask myself that question above so many times I probably shouldn't, lol.

DansMom replied: I agree with Schnoogly that it doesn't sound like dairy allergy/sensitivity, based on what you've described, but anything is worth a try. Usually she would have shown other symptoms like distress after eating, skin conditions, bad diarrhea with rash, or a histamine reaction.

It is hard enough to raise a non-HN child---non-HN moms like me may feel like we relate to what you describe, or we may experience some aspects of what you're going through, but we would have to put exponents on everything to know what it's like. As exhausted as I am with my situation, I can only imagine that having an HN child would make me feel either homicidal or catatonic most of the time. I hope that things get better or that you find some way to get a few nights of sleep.

coasterqueen replied:
You know what though? I may have a HN child and you may not, but one thing is for sure....we all handle life and our situations so differently so it doesn't mean you don't understand or *feel* like you are going thru a similar situation. Did that make any sense? LOL.

DansMom replied:
Yes, it makes sense

coasterqueen replied:
LOL. I'm not sure if I read it and it makes sense. Glad you do. I meant it to be "good"

Kaitlin'smom replied: wheeew reading all that makes me exausted! I really dunno how you do it, I admire your strength and offer tons of support. I need to night ween Kaitlin she wakes up one sometimes twice and she want to nurse, its seems to be the only way will will get back to sleep, she was puting her self back to sleep for a while then she started teething again, and in order for me to sleep and function I just give in. I also have a hard time letting DH take her when so is upset I cant take the crying and calling mamamama, I really try and let him comfort her but if she does not calm down after 15-20min I go get her and instantly she is fine. The other thing that is hard for me to let him take her is she will fight him and sometimes slap him at night when she just wants mommy, I feel bad when she does that. I am planing on tryin it this weekend, I just have to be prepaid for some sleepless nights....than I have to work on the other what I call bad habit I started with her.....sorry for my rambling and what seems to be my own problems.

I want to just help and hug all who need it and I could I would travel around and give moms a break they soooo need.

Schnoogly replied: You know what's funny, or maybe not funny, dealing with HN is TONS harder than heart surgery. I am serious--yeah our first 4 months or so were agonizing waiting for surgeries and of course watching him like a hawk, the panic attacks when I thought his color was bad, etc.

But then his heart was fixed, and we've been so lucky that he has been healthy.


The HN, on the other hand, is a daily grueling He!!. The months of never putting him down, never being alone with DH for even one minute, peeing with a baby on your shoulder, eating whatever you can stuff in your mouth with one hand, the endless hours of rocking and nursing and bouncing and BEGGING please, please go to sleep. That has been much harder, SO MUCH harder. So I don't know if it makes you feel better, esp. because people would never equate heart surgery with HN, but HN is harder. If I had 3 wishes, my first wish would not be that he never needed another heart surgery. That would be my second wish. My first wish would be that he were LESS intense, LESS persistent, LESS sensitive, LESS everything. I would wish for mellowness. (The third wish would either be Jodie Foster's body or a lot of cash, not sure LOL)

Also, I definitely wished the doc would tell me that he had reflux or whatever and give me zantac and he would magically turn into a happy, smiley baby overnight. I kwym. And I have heard another mom say that the allergy testing really isn't that bad, so I really hope you get some answers!! I suspect allergies here too--DH is massively allergic and I am the ezcema queen. But going to the doctor provokes 2 weeks of He!! for us (I can't really blame him for that), so I'm going to wait.

kimberley replied: as for the screaming, i also was told that james had nothing medically wrong with him because he would calm down when he was held some of the time. he does have allergies and acute eczema (developed around 18mos) but he has been HN since birth and i honestly think his eczema is stress related.

i totally KWYM about wondering where you went wrong. his dad and i fought a lot during pg and i blame myself all the time that we caused him to come out so angry. then he was so tiny when he was born i was afraid to break him and wonder if i didn't bond enough with him then... there are a million things i have done since he was conceived til now that i think could be why he is so HN. but like i said before, i really don't think it is anything we did... they are just born "spirited" (as schnoogly put it).

as for Attachment Parenting, i have APed with all 3 of my kids and James is the only high needs baby.

i really hope things get better for you sooner than it did for us.

DansMom replied: When I was new to this site, I really didn't know anything about HN babies. Now I know a lot more, and it's clear to me that Daniel is not HN. He has normal separation anxiety issues, and is fairly adaptable. He would be po'd if I went away for a whole night, he clearly prefers me and clamors for me when I'm around, but he's not desperate and enraged about things (except nose suctioning), he's charming with other caregivers and he doesn't throw tantrums for very long (maybe 30 seconds)---he adjusts pretty well to change and the unexpected these days, although I wasn't sure for a while there how he would be with that. The only issue I can say I understand completely is the demand to nurse frequently overnight and how hard it is to get up and go to work, get the pump supplies together, being exhausted at work and not performing well, having it affect interactions with DH and all that. I've been buying lotto tickets like they're going out of style---hoping for some kind of rescue from this 40 hour work week.

coasterqueen replied:
I need to invest in lotto tickets. DH keeps asking me what would help and I tell him "win the lotto so I can afford to stay home" LOL.

You know what is really weird is there are 2 people Kylie is a complete angel for, well *most* of the time and that is her sitter and Dh's cousin Trent. Weird? Like Kylie will take naps for Terri (our sitter) and most of the time she is in good mood, most of the time, but then she gets home and BAMN another child appears Trent is another one. She could sit on his lap for hours watching tv and not move or make a peep. I've begged, pleaded, offered money, threatened, you name it I done whatever I could to convince him to come live with us, lol. He won't. I even offered to marry him, lol. That didn't work either

MommyToAshley replied: I just thought about you when I was feeding Ashley her snack. I wonder if offering some choices would help? Ashley is obviously a different child, she is not HN, she is happy most of the time, and she is not clingy. But, she does come with some challenges. In fact, one of them is that she is too independant and wants to do EVERYTHING herself... from changing her diaper, to picking out her clothes, to putting on her clothes, to opening her applesauce, to putting her own toys in the bathtub, to picking out her bedtime book. The problem comes when she gets frustrated because she can't do something. How is she going to open her own applesauce when I have a hard time getting it open. But, she wants to do it herself. It gets to be frustrating. It is more than just that... if I hold out her pants for her to put her left leg in, then she wants to put her right leg in. So, what I have found is that by offering some choices whenever possible eases the tension at other times. For example, at snack time I will ask her if she wants applesauce or peaches and she will say or point to the one she wants. Then, she doesn't seem to mind when I open it. At diaper time, I have to give her the diaper to open, pulll open the tags, and then she tries to put it on her bottom... but I finish putting it on. It makes diaper changing a little easier. At naptime, it's not, "do you want to take a nap" but "do you want Mommy or Daddy to give you a nap?" Or "Do you want your Pooh Bear or Bunny to nap with you?" I didn't think of this myself, I read it somewhere. Although I wonder sometimes if I am doing the right thing. Am I teaching her that she will always get her way.... she will always get peaches when she wants peaches. Or, am I teaching her that she can have choices as long as she follows the rules... she can choose between peaches and applesauce at snacktime but she can't have cookies and mommy gets to help open the container.

Sorry to have rambled again, but I guess what I am wondering is if the same solution would work for different problems. I wonder if you give Kylie a choice between two things when she is like this if it will help her to decide what she wants?

coasterqueen replied:
Who knows but it is worth a try? I know we ask her "do you want to go night, night" "do you want to eat", etc, etc. And we either get screams or we get "No". Everything is "No" right now. She doesn't understand the meaning of "Yes" although she can say it.

She still doesn't have a lot of words for things but she tells me she wants "whawha" when she wants her sippy but it seems more and more she screams and points to it. Sometimes we will be holding her and in the kitchen and she's pointing to something on the counter and screaming and we can't figure out what it is she wants. We point to EVERYTHING and she still points and screams. I really just think she doesn't know what she wants, lol.

But I will definately give your suggestion a try. I don't think it hurts at all to give our kids choices. It's good for them to know they do have choices in life that it is not this and only this. So in the future they know they have choices like when someone tries to give them drugs they know they could either take the offer or walk away. You just hope they walk away But I've heard too many times kids say "I didn't have the choice". Well, if we teach them that there are choices in life then they will know in those circumstances that they DID have the choice. Okay I'm preaching, lol.

Now I have something new to try at home tonight Thanks!

Schnoogly replied: Wow Ashley is amazing! I can't imagine Iain helping to put his diaper on! Usually he crawls away screaming hysterically LOL. It seems like she is pretty advanced verbally and understands a lot too--I mean, mine is 3 months younger but I just can't communicate with him at all. He doesn't say no or anything yet but I'm just waiting for the day Right now he's into destruction--banging, hitting, kicking, mushing food etc. It seems like you're doing the right things, but I think Ashley does sound a little advanced in this regard. This sounds like stuff that would work on a 3 year old not a 16 month old! Choice seems like a pretty advanced thing for this age? Am I wrong? Or does a lot happen between 13-16 months??

I never ask him if he wants to do something. I explain things to him like, see how you're rubbing your eyes and you feel reallly cranky. That means it is time for a nap. And then, two hours later when he still isn't asleep, "Iain, it's time for a ^&&&******&&&ing nap!!! Right now!!!" Yes I know I'm raising a pottymouth but there's only so much one person can take!!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I know how you feel Karen. Maddie is very high needs and very strong willed. She doesn't give in. Like you, I get frustrated a lot and feel as though no one understands. Until a couple of months ago DH did not understand. Maddie was sleeping in our room, but not in our bed and since she has been sleeping in her own room things have been much better. She feels better, DH and I are getting along so much better and yes, sex is better. TeeHee. I no longer resent him b/c he has helped me with the situation. I figured out a lot of it was him wanting her in the room b/c he felt safer with all of us there. I really had to get tough with Maddie, though. It was hard for me to do and I hated it. I think it is different for a 16 month old, though. Kylie is trying so hard to communicate with you and she gets frustrated, I'm sure. I remember Maddie being just like that before she started talking real well. She still has her moments, too. Kylie is an angel. She is your angel whether anyone else sees it or not. She is just very mischievious and strong willed. I never imagined having a child like the one that I got, but I love her (as you do Kylie) and I do my best with her. That is why we waited so long to have another baby. I knew with Maddie being so high needs that I would never last with a baby in the house. Plus, the hours DH works. I can relate to your every word, but I can also tell you that it gets better. Maddie is a huge help to me (due in part to having to stay busy all the time) and so smart, funny, spunky, affectionate...she is an angel to us. Hang in there. I know it is tough. Maddie was also always fussy around 5 and would stay that way until bedtime.

I hope it gets better for you soon! ((((HUGS))))

Jamison'smama replied:
Wow, it sounds like bedtime at my house

I agree--Ashley is advanced, I do offer choices but not with much success. Jamison is not nearly as verbal!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

Right there with ya! I was the same exact way! I never dreamed I would be 'arguing' with an infant over breastfeeding and everything else. She was difficult from the very beginning. It is so hard and you truly have to do what works for you and your family. Luckily DH and I survived b/c we worked together. That, and he is really good with her. I lose my patience and just walk away most of the time. He is better at reasoning with her.

The good thing about Strong willed children is that they make wonderful, respectable adults. They are great leaders and they always stand their ground. There is something for us to look forward to.

chloe&tysmommy replied: wow!
There is some great advice given- and I hope something works out for you. Chloe is not HN and we don't co-sleep so I'm sorry I have no advice for you but all of the ladies that have responded have given wonderful ideas and great tips.




I hope your situation changes for the better very soon....((hugs))

Schnoogly replied:
This is true for us too--DH is an infinite well of patience. I walk away a lot of the time when I just lose it. It would be ideal if DH could stay home with him--he wants to, but he has the job with the better pay and benefits and there is no job I could get right now (until I finish my PhD) that would cover our expenses. The catch is that there is no way I can finish my dissertation while staying home full time. I can't even wash the dishes, kwim?? Let alone write 200 pages.

And yes, I know all these things will come in handy as an adult--he will be interesting, smart, likeable (he's very social) and persistent in his goals. Can we just skip ahead 4-5 years???

aspenblue1 replied: All I can offer is (((HUGS))) Isabella weaned herself around 12 months. She would wake up a couple of times a night to nurse. She was clingy for a while but now she is very very independent.

MommyToAshley replied: Sorry, I went to post a reply to this early and had to stop to make dinner. Anyways, here is what we did... I hope you find at least one thing helpful.

First of all, I read in several books that some babies have a hard time staying asleep if they nurse to sleep. I guess because they never learn to self-sooth. Other babies have no problem nursing to sleep and staying asleep...but Ashley wasn't one of those. So, my first step was to get Ashley to go to sleep without nursing. I would rock/nurse her until she was on the verge of going to sleep and then lay her in her bed awake. I couldn't do the CIO thing, so I stayed there and held her hand until she fell asleep. (I tried patting her bottom or rubbing her back but she preferred to hold my hand) After a few nights of this, she would lay in her bed, turn over on her tummy and then hold her hand up for my hand. She would grab my hand and then tuck it under her belly and go to sleep. It would just melt my heart. I know this wasn't the ideal thing.... she wasn't going to sleep on her own, but she wasn't relying on nursing either. And, I didn't have to suffer through CIO. Usually it only took a few minutes for her to go to sleep.

Next, we had to come up with a plan on how we were going to handle the night awakenings. We tried several different things, but we finally decided on a plan and stuck with it. We knew that she couldn't be hungry and that she was relying on nursing to go back to sleep. We decided that we would nurse her before going to bed and then we wouldn't nurse her until midnight and then not nurse her again before 5:00 am. I was confident that she shouldn't be hungry until then... especially since she ate such a big dinner. Then, after she got used to that, we cut out the midnight feeding.

When Ashley would wake up at night, DH would go in her room and comfort her. I can't remember, he might have picked her up the first couple of times and rocked her.... but for the most part, he just patted her back and stood by her crib until she went to sleep. I tried to help and comfort her a few times, but as soon as she saw me, she would want to nurse and nothing else would satisfy her. He had the roughest part of it, although I felt guilty for not going to her. But, it wasn't long before she was only waking up a few times a night, and then she started waking up at 6:30 to nurse and then going back to bed until 8:00. She even let me lay her down awake at 6:30am and walk out of the room. Eventually, it got to the point that when she woke up, DH or I could go in the room to comfort her... all we would have to do is say "It's ok honey, go back to bed" and lay her back down.

Next, she gave up the 6:30 nursing on her own. And, finally she stopped waking up through the night. Now, most nights she will sleep from 8:00PM to 8:00AM. If she does wake up, it will be for a reason... she is stuffy or poopy or something like that. And, she goes to sleep on her own too... she doesn't want me to hold her hand any more... I kind of miss that.

When we first started this plan, I never imagined that Ashley would sleep 12 hours straight... not my child! I won't say it is easy, because it isn't. We had some sleepless nights, and I kept second guessing whether or not we were doing the right thing. But, we knew it was important to stay consistent so that we didn't confuse her. I had to deal with the guilty feelings, wondering if she will think I won't be there if she needed me, wondering if it would change her happy disposition during the day. I did give her lots of extra love and attention during the day. And, in the end, it was the best thing we could have done for all of us. She is still the same happy, confident person and we all get the rest we need.

If you have any questions or just need some support when you are weaning her, then please feel free to PM me. I know all children are different... I hope you find something that works for you.

CantWait replied: I'm so sorry you're going through this. Sometimes I think Anthony is bad, he certainly is A LOT more work then Robbie was. I can relate to some of the things you're going through. DH would love for me to stop bf now and it's only been 6 months. He wants his bbs back, he also says if I didn't bf or if I had given Anthony the bottle that he'd take the bottle or sippy cup for him. We've had no life because Anthony only wants me, if dh takes him, he crys and holds his little arms out to me. I just keep telling myself that he just really loves me hmmmm. I also have to take naps with him or hold him or he doesn't sleep.

Maybe it is time to do a mild form of CIO, I know it sucks, I've tried with Anthony a couple times when I just couldn't deal with him for another minute without a rest. I think Kylie is at the age now where she is starting to understand....so instead of screaming, maybe (if you haven't already) you could tell her to "use her words" or "show you what she wants". Let her know that she can't scream and that you won't give her what she wants when she reacts that way.

I really hope things get better for you soon. Big hugs to you