How would you feel about

cameragirl21 wrote: Ok, so here is the deal. I'm feeling a little antsy, creatively speaking and am seeking a different kind of challenge. Also, as for my juicing blog, I also want it to be about life in general, as well as juicing, being green and a healthy lifestyle. One thing I'm itching to do lately is photograph unscripted, just go out and about with my camera and shoot life as it's happening.
As you all know, my specialty is kids' photography and I've been wanting to go to a playground and just photograph kids at play, undisturbed. This is legal and the parents cannot stop me from doing so, they can only take their kids and leave. That said, I'm not about making people leave so I was thinking of showing up with my camera in hand, introducing myself to the moms, hand out my cards (NOT to get business, just so know I'm legit and don't they don't think I'm a freak) and asking them if I can photograph their kids, offering them the pics if they want them at a severely reduced price but there is no obligation to buy, just letting them know that they can have the pics if they want them. Obviously, if I were a guy, I imagine most parents would be leary but being female helps a lot in that sense. Just curious how some of you might feel about that. The point is not to find kids to shoot but rather to shoot spontaneous actions and life and childhood as it's happening, it's much harder to get good shots that way than when I'm being paid to do so and I have to engage the kids into action, kwim? So obviously it's a challenge and that is what I'm seeking.
One thing to bear in mind--as far as I was told, and I'd check with a lawyer first just so I'm sure, when I photograph kids or anyone out and about, their pics are fair game and I can publish them to my heart's content. Any pics I'm hired to take I must get a release form in order to publish them anywhere other than my portfolio, that no longer requires consent. But to publish the pics anywhere else, I do need consent. BUT if I go out and about on the beach, for instance, with a telephoto lens that allows me to shoot from far away and photograph anyone, kids included, those pics require no consent of any kind. Again, that is what I was told, I'm inclined to ask a lawyer who specializes in these sorts of things before publishing pics in order to be 100% sure but the reason I bring this up is that I would be inclined to add these pics to my blog, I'm really into life unscripted these days, for some reason.
I am sure most of you will think that's very unfair, as far as the pics being publishable but bear in mind that the photographer always owns the copyright no matter what, unless they sign away their rights, which I've never done and don't plan to ever do. I really don't want this to turn into a discussion on whether or not it's fair that someone can take your kids' pics without your consent, that is outside of my control and beside the point of this post. What I'm wondering is how you'd react if a photog who's obviously legit, with a camera and biz card in hand approached you in public and asked to photograph your child, as long as that person does not talk to or disturb your child's play.
Thanks.

luvbug00 replied: I'd want to know if it was going on the web. I'd say yes probaly, although i think it would be nice for them to be able to order one small size of the pic for free. You are taking their kids pics for free why should they then have to pay for a copy? Aside from that i think as long as you introduce yourself and hand out a card and offered a free copy I'd be alright with it.

cameragirl21 replied: Well, just because I'm taking the pics free doesn't mean I owe them a free copy but I'd be open to letting them pick one free 4x6 for allowing me to take the pics.
And yes, I'd tell them the pics are going on my blog and give them the addy so they can see for themselves.

PrairieMom replied: I would be really appreciative of the photographer taking the time to let me know, esp if what you say about the laws is true, but I would probably still take my kids and leave. I wouldn't want someone else having my child's image to do what ever with. I wouldn't cause a stink about it or anything tho.

Danalana replied: I'm on the fence about it. I can understand what your purpose is, but it would be weird that someone I didn't know was photographing my child and doing what they wanted with the pictures. I don't know what I would do/say.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Firstly I would like to say that man or woman asking to take pictures of my children would be met with LOTS of resistance on my part especially if I was told they were to be on the interent. I would be highly irritated and so would most of the moms I know. We have had things like take place down here with pedophiles taking pictures and while you may be with-in your legal 'rights' to photograph I would hope that you would realize just how invasive that is to the privacy of people who are just trying to enjoy the day with their kids.....

DVFlyer replied: The reasons this is legal is that if you are in a public place, you should not expect "privacy".

I would wonder if there is an "under 18" limit of some sort.... Many times in news stories, they blur out the faces of people under 18 so perhaps the same would apply here.

That being said, if I was in a park and noticed someone shooting pictures, I would wonder what they were doing. Of course if they were out in the open as opposed to hiding in car, I would be less on guard. But it would make me uncomfortable.

I can't imagine you being able to tell every parent at the park what you are doing so at some point you will need to answer the question of what you are doing... and at some point face an irate parent (and possibly police intervention) who thinks you are doing something illegal.

cameragirl21 replied:
Exactly right.
Actually, I would go to a smaller park and WOULD ask every parent and I wouldn't want any of the parents to leave--if they were not ok with it, I'd just leave their children out of the picture.s I recall when I was in college, some photography students showed me their pics and some were on a playground and I asked if the parents didn't mind and the photog students were like, "what makes you think they have a choice?" I was surpised but later found out that it is in fact, legal.
I look at things from this perspective--just because by law I can do something doesn't mean I should. For this reason, I would ask and let it be known what the pictures are for. If anyone is not ok with it, I would hope they could just politely decline instead of offering up lots of resistance that is not called for when a simple, "no, I'd rather you didn't" would suffice.

Thanks for all the opinions.

Mommy2Isabella replied: I wouldn't be ok with it and would take my children and leave. Especially if the photos were going on the internet.

Just me. Some people may be ok with it, and I think it is great that you are going to ask them. I would however even with a free photo, leave and take my children to a park where they could play and not be photographed. (Hence why we have a playset in our backyard )

A&A'smommy replied: I think its a GREAT idea!!!! I guess that is coming from another photographers point of view though and a LOT of moms around here would LOVE it!!!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I don't see anything wrong with it. I wouldn't be weirded out if you came up to me in a park, handed me your card and explained to me what you were doing. I take my camera to the park almost everytime we go and I may or may not get other people's kids in the pictures.

Then again, I take my camera everywhere and take pics of everything. So it's normal to me. I never thought twice about it offending someone.

mom21kid2dogs replied: I think you might want to think about it very carefully before proceeding. Whether or not you have a "legal right" to do something won't prevent a lawsuit from a honked off parent in a suit happy world. In Ohio, if you use those photos for anyhing that provides you monetary gain (advertising, sold as stock photos, etc) you must have a release from a parent or legal guardian. I would definately have a very through consult with legal counsel before proceeding to make sure you have the law and use restrictions in your state correct. In this state, for the most part, you don't have the right to use my child's image without my permission regardless of who you are or where the photos are taken. I've signed releases from the school, the Girl Scouts, the YMCA, OU, etc. In fact, at OU where my daughter takes swimming lessons, I had to express my desire in writing to the aquatic director a week in advance that I wanted to photograh my child during lessons and was given a specific window of opprtunity to do this. I don't think it's all as free reign as you've been led to believe.

To me it, it's a far different situation as a parent to be photographing a child/children YOU bring as a parent to an event and inadvertantly gets a child in the photo as opposed to a professional showing up at a park and offering to sell me pics of my child. I bring my camera everywhere, too. If I get a cute shot of someone elses kid, I offer to give them a copy for free, not for pay. I've done it before plenty of times. I think it definately crosses a social boundry and it might cross a legal one.

CantWait replied: *Lips sealed on this one* I'll just answer the question.

Just because someone produces a camera and a business card doesn't make them legit. What you could do (after getting all legal advice, and continuing on with it) is to bring along your portfolio with you. Cover your behind in everyway.



I completly agree with this.

cameragirl21 replied: Thanks again for the replies. I haven't decided yet how or if I'm going to do this, it's just an idea in my head.
Cheryl--I'm not worried about a lawsuit because in FL and I imagine anywhere, you have to prove that harm was done as a result of the pic being displayed in order to collect any money and lawsuits are expensive. All they could do is sue to get an injunction to take the pic down and if I were to do this, I'd have something on the blog that clearly says if your pic shows up here and you don't want it here, call me and I'll take it down right away. So no need for a lawsuit. Also, I'd not post pics unless people were made aware that their kids' pics would be on the blog, I'm not about blindsiding people, legal or not.
As for your giving away the pics when you take them, please understand that there is a big difference between a parent taking random pics and a professional being out and about taking pics, there is no comparison...I take pics for a living and don't mind giving away a free one here and there but to give away all the pics would be considered out of line in the industry.
I really like the idea of life unscripted but am wondering if at least in the beginning, there may be a better way to do this--I wonder if I could put together portrait parties but not charge people for the party itself and that way I could get a release form from all of them beforehand. That way if the concept takes off then people will know about my blog and if they see me out and about town with a camera, they'll know what is up and will decide for themselves if they want to stick around and be a part of it.
I can tell you that Glamour magazine takes random shots for their do and don't section and they cover the eyes just so as not to embarrass people but taking their pics and posting them in a major magazine without their permission or knowledge is not illegal. Like I said, I'm very cautious about these things because legal or not, I want to be fair to everyone and wouldn't take any pics without the parents' consent.
I do like the idea, I will have to think a bit about the best way to execute it. I'm not worried about being sued, just don't want to get a reputation for a photog who disregards people's feelings, especially when it comes to their kids.
Oh yeah, and the point is NOT to sell people pics of their children, it's just to take pics of children being children. If people want the pics, they can get them but I'm not doing this to sell people pictures, that is not the idea at all.

coasterqueen replied: I don't know what I'd do. As a parent I wouldn't like my children's photo out on the web by someone else, but then again we have a website where we display our children's photos. Not only that the school does it as well. I mean, we sign permission to have it done, but they are out there. I also know when in public and someone else is taking pictures, my kids might happen to be in that picture, if even off in the distance.

cameragirl21 replied: Karen, I can see why some parents would be uneasy about this, in this day and age, well, it's a scary time.
I'm thinking if I want to do this I should start out with portrait parties where everyone signs a release form and knows what is going on. Then, if the idea takes off, I can eventually say on my blog that I will be at such and such ice cream shop, playground, whatever on such and such day at such and such time and anyone who wants to be photographed should come over and if not, then they know where not to go and when, kwim?

Maddie&EthansMom replied: You can get this same effect (life unscripted) in a photo shoot with a child. There are plenty of photographers out there who have unposed photos of children (me being one of them) I don't like posed pictures, either. Take your next client to the park and photograph them playing. It's the best backdrop for a portrait shoot. Or take pics in your client's home--of them just living everyday life. If you want to remain "professional" then keep with the paying clients and update your blog with their pics instead. But if you have a camera in a park, people will assume you are an amateur, taking practice photos. At least I would. Be prepared for people to ask you to email them whatever pics you take. I have a feeling that would offend you, so it's something to consider.



True.

cameragirl21 replied: Aimee, I don't take posed shots either but the point is to get the pics I want, not the ones my clients want which is why I don't want to do it with paying clients. I want to do what pleases me, not the parents, kwim? I want to be free with my camera to just shoot from the heart, no pressure. Lately, I'm just under a lot of pressure and when I was just getting started, shooting was just for fun, I used to call it "feeding my soul" and I guess I'm itching to go back to those days, even if for just a few hours a week, kwim?
I don't mind doing this as portait parties and just not charging people, that way I don't owe them anything. We'll see, I just need a new creative challenge and some freedom to feel instead of thinking and overthinking, which I've been doing SO much of lately.
I don't mind emailing pics but my thing would be, "the pics are on my blog for your viewing pleasure" kwim? We'll see how it goes, it's just an infant idea in my head right now.
Aimee, thanks for your pm from a few weeks or so back...the situation is still unresolved which is why I haven't responded but I did want to thank you for your advice and I did take it and am still taking it if you kwim. The situation will be resolved this month, one way or another and I'll let you know what happens. Thanks. Oh yeah, and thanks for your prayers.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Oh I see now. How do journalists work this? Do they have releases signed by the people they photograph? If you're just putting them on your blog--and not selling them, I really don't see the difference. Maybe I'm dense. It wouldn't hurt to just go out one day and try it. See what kind of reactions you get....



You're welcome. I was curious, but I figured you would let me know. Best of luck --you have my continued prayers.

cameragirl21 replied:
Thanks again, Aimee.
As for how journalists do it, I've been out and about to events here in Miami where Ocean Drive Magazine photogs approach people and photograph them and then ask their names so they can release not only their pics in the upcoming issue of the magazine but also their names. At first I was like but I'm realizing it's totally kosher...that is how the whole "Girls Gone Wild" videos came to be--a guy had the idea to go to Mardi Gras where people are generally plastered to the point that they probably don't even remember their own names so all you have to do is stand there with a video camera and voila--you've got soft core porn that you didn't have to pay any actors to get. The brains behind the project got sued by all sorts of girls who recognized themselves but they lost their case because they were out in public doing their thing.
This btw was the example given to me when I was in a group of people in the industry, arguing that you always DO need a release form and they insisted that if it's out in public, you don't.
I certainly don't want to be compared to the makers of "Girls Gone Wild" so I play by certain rules even if they don't exist really, kwim? I don't want to post pics without parents' consent, even if the law says I can because that would unnecessarily upset people. I'm just trying to figure out how I can do it, I may try it and not be into it but like I said, I need a new creative challenge and I need some creative freedom asap and it occurred to me that this is how I could get it.
The trick is to get good, pro quality pictures, not snap shotty types of kids whose parents are not bribing them to cooperate with me, kwim? The kids have no obligation to look at me or cooperate in any way, they are doing their own thing and it's up to me to get good pictures under the circumstances. It's not easy to do which is what makes it a challenge.

msoulz replied: Just a thought - I know you aren't doing it to promote your busines, but . . . if you were to give a flyer with sample of your pictures along with a quick explanation of your purpose to the parents they may feel more comfortable and they may be more interested in looking at your blog and maybe some business may come. That wouldn't be a terrible thing either.

I think that would make me more comfortable because then you would seem more legit.