Got Raw Milk?

mommy~to~a~bunch wrote: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine...milk/?page=full

I love raw milk!

lovemy2 replied: Umm no way no how - not for me I would be too afraid that the cows would not be healthy and I would have no way to know until it was too late

coasterqueen replied: Like I said before, we used raw goats milk for the girls when Megan was about a year old and didn't handle regular cows milk very well. Kylie didn't really like the taste, but Megan loved it. I didn't like the twangy taste but it was goats milk. I wonder if cow's milk has that same twang?

As far as where you get it - just like with organic meat, if you establish a relationship with your farmer and can clearly see how they are caring for the animals and for the milk there is NO need to worry. Quite frankly I'll put my trust in the hands of a farmer that I've established a relationship with, than a huge corporate company, who really doesn't put my interests to heart.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: There's no after taste with raw cow's milk at all, Karen. But I sure can tell the difference between the store-bought and the raw! And raw is MUCH better!

I just made about a pound of butter this morning too. It's great!

I get our milk from a good friend of mine I've known for 5 years now. They just got their own milk cow, and she is the sweetest thing! I have no concerns about the safety or quality of milk either. My friend is way more crunchy than I am, and takes excellent care of their animals.


Like Karen said, I'd put my trust in small farmers anyday than in big companies that only care about turning a profit, not their animals, and who use who-knows-what injectables and other dangerous stuff.

PrairieMom replied:
how do you make your butter? I made mine with heavy cream, and shook it in a mason Jar. Do you have to shake whole milk longer?

MyBabeMaddie replied: I'll take pasteurized milk anyday. E.coli, listeria and Salmonella don't sound like a good gamble to me.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Actually, I used my Kitchenaid mixer . It took a little longer, but it saved my arms from the shaking. And I just use the cream, no milk. I let the milk sit in the glass jars overnight so the cream can rise to the top, then I use a soup ladle to skim off the cream.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:

Anthony275 replied: thats cool, id never drink anything white and was intended for animals but thats just me

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Could you explain that a bit more? I'm confused as to what you are saying.

Anthony275 replied: well id never drink anything white
and why should humans have to drink cows milk or any other milk from an animal, it's intended for animals. over time they've just adapted (i guess thats the right word to use?) to drink it
im not saying anything about whats being healthy and do not indend to make it seem that way so please do not pin that on me

Calimama replied: So it tastes the same as regular milk?

Crystalina replied: I would never never bring raw milk into my house. E.coli. Nope. We've had one child die from it already. I'm not going to chance it.

lovemy2 replied:
So really if you read the article - neither pasturized milk or raw milk are 100% safe - I agree your chances are much better with someone you know giving you the raw milk but in my mind the risk is higher with the raw milk - but that is just my mind - we also had a family member contract ecoli - mostly his fault since he didn't fully cook his hamburger but it was devastating and left him forever disabled in many ways

bawoodsmall replied:
this is off the track but you had a child die from it? I am still trying to catch up on everyones history so if I am off base just ignore me or say you dont want to talk about it. PM me so we arent intruding on Mollie.

I dont know about the raw milk thing. First off dh works in a dairy and would pitch a fit...second off I am not sure I would want to risk it totally. Not sure.

lovemy2 replied:
Her niece died of it - heartbreaking

bawoodsmall replied: That is heart wrenching. Was it from raw milk?

MyBabeMaddie replied: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_milk.html

mom21kid2dogs replied:
IIRC, it was from pre bagged salad contaminated with EColi. It was heartbreaking.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
It tastes better!

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
That's far from raw milk, isn't it?

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Really - you should know by now that I don't believe anything the government says, since they side with the dairy farmers everytime. Of COURSE they recommend pasteurization, along with artificial hormones to make the cows produce more milk than they naturally would.

Here's a nifty little chart comparing raw milk to pasteurized:
http://www.realmilk.com/whichchoose.html . Just look at the nutrition that is lost due to pasteurization! And the standards for for raw milk are so much higher, making for more humane conditions for the cows.

lovemy2 replied: Oh Boy - here we go again

moped replied: Well I drink skim milk so I am thinking that would be like yogurt to me and I would puke for sure - sorry......
I didn't read the article, but can I ask if it is VERY fatteneing? I would think for children it is fine, but wouldn't it make an adult gain like crazy?

Crystalina replied:
Yes that's far from raw milk but once you've been through a child slowly dying because all of her organs are shutting down you pretty much don't want to gamble.

I know pasteurized milk can also have E.coli but the chances are not as high.

Here is a website I made for her if anyone wants the story. On the site I've added a video and in it it states that raw milk is one of the ways people can get it.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Actually, you're more likely to get sick from PASTEURIZED milk than from raw:
http://www.realmilk.com/foodborne.html . NO illnesses or deaths from raw milk, but a dozen from pasteurized milk.

Here's more on why pasteurization is bad, and how it destroys the milk:
http://www.realmilk.com/moreraw.html

Crystalina replied:

I know there are many dangers in the world and in our food but I will not knowingly give my children something that *may* kill them. That's a chance I'm not willing to take. I don't care how nice the farmer is that gives it to me.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:

MyBabeMaddie replied: Mollie please don't take offense to this but do you have any kind of degree in research or in the health field? You speak so strongly on the milk topic in general (breast and cow) I was just curious if you yourself have done any studies or research to make such lifestyle choices?...

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
No, I don't have a degree. I've never been to college either. Some topics mean a lot to me, especially breastfeeding, and that will never change. I have never done any research studies or anything. I have some well-educated friends (college degrees and real life experiences) that have taught me what I know, plus doing my own research and my life experiences.

Everyone has to do what's best for their families, as long as those choices are researched thoroughly before making any decisions.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Sarah, I don't mean to offend, but do you?

Does anyone here?

For EVERY SINGLE TOPIC, anyone can find 2 opposing sides, 2 opposing research findings, 2 opposing reports, 2 opposing doctors... it goes on and on.

I've done my own research... on many things.. and on many things, I tend to side on the more natural approach, the more unprocessed, less pumped with antibiotics, less preservatives, etc etc... like canning food - a lot f people don't do it because of the risk of botulism. if done correctly, following proper procedures (which are even posted on government health and safety websites) for both the processing and re-heating of home-processed foods.. the risk of botulism is no more than regular canned food... just you know what's in it. You know there aren't bug parts in it. You DO know that there is a % allowed for debris and "other" stuff, such as bugs, hair, garbage, etc.. in canned foods and other processed items, such as milk and ground meat, right?

As for cow's milk raw vs pasteurized... the health benefits are shown every DAY with new yogurts etc comingn out with probiotics etc.. pasteurization KILLS that... and the bacteria has to be added after pasteurization. Yogurt is one of the most disgusting foods I can think of, if I think about what it really is..just like honey. Yogurt is bacteria infested milk. The more bacteria, the thicker the yogurt. YUUUM!! Honey? It's bee vomit!! MM MM GOOD!! lol

Ecoli is VERY serious, yes... but it's not like it's 100% in store bought items either. It can be ANYWHERE. You can get it from your own kitchen, with food you bought at the store... chicken..eggs... salad... it's how you sanitize, cook, process foods yourself that will prevent, or at least help prevent infection... not whether it's been treated with antibiotics / heating / bleached (like flour) or other process that "cleanses" the food. More and more people are realizing this, and even the government cannot deny it any longer... people are going back to organic stuff. I would definitely not be surprised if more stores started offering raw milk in the foreseeable near future.

of this, i give an example... there;s a company here, called St-Albert dairy. People travel from fairly far to get dairy products from this company//because they don't overprocess their products. The Butter is made from real milk, nothing added except a bit of salt. Why? Because it's better. Not nearly as oily as regular storebought butter. Fresher taste. Creamier. But more EXPENSIVE... and really that's what it comes down to. Do you really think that government is going to go public and announce that raw stuff is better for you? Wouldnt that mean that dairy farms are SOL??!! Then where's their revenue from said farms?!

It's just ridiculous to be so petty and argumentative (in general here, not pointing at anyone) about somethiing so trivial? I mean really, if you're happy with your decisions about what you eat, what you wear, what you do or don't do with your own children, and you are 100% sure of that... why would ANYONE be offended at anyone else's choices? if you are so sure, why be offended?

I wouldn't be offended unless I thought I was guilty of possibly not offering the best...and as far as I'm concerned, I'm offering the best I can to my family in all aspects of life, and so I'm hardly ever offended when someone brings a different opinion on something.. and when i am offended, i do more research...because I'm not actually "offended", I'm more doubting my own judgement about what's offending me, and everyone can surely agree that it is easier to point blame at someone for feeling upset rather than look at why you are offended, and take responsibility for quite possibly your own actions or judgement call. As long as I do my research, I can either adjust accordingly, or remain in the position that what I'm doing is best for my family, and i can feel validated in my own judgement.

It really doesn't matter.... as long as you are happy with what you are doing.



Man I really blabbed, huh!! :

lovemy2 replied: Really - why not - look where this has gone AGAIN - calling it like I see it - it was much nicer than what I could have said

And I think Sara is in nursing school - Sara?

MyBabeMaddie replied:
I will have a degree in December - I'll be a nurse. I just wondered because we talk about stuff like this in class and how to avoid diseases it seems like drinking raw milk is just an open invitation to some nasty bacteria.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Christine - the reason? Because it's rude. Simple. It doesn't matter if the topic is going there... there really is no need for it to be pointed out. I'm sure you could still be a lot nicer about it.

Oh - and when I was working for a nursing home and they sent me to school to get my degree. I was pulled out before I got it, though. They talk about disease prevention, not so much how disease affects the body, not past the ethical side of it, anyways, as in - how to take care of the patient and prevent the infections from spreading. NOT what to eat and what not to eat. I still have all my text books, I could look it up if you were so inclined, I'm 100% positive that whether to drink raw milk or not is not in there.

FYI, I was in biotechnology/bioethics for a while, so I ALSO know a lot about bacteria.

MyBabeMaddie replied:
I wasn't saying that "chapter 23 covers raw vs pasteurized milk" I'm saying people ask questions which have lead to discussions with professors and this was once a topic. I have taken several nutrition classes, and studied pathophysiology on many many disease processes. Different schools teach differently I'm not saying I have my MD in any sense but I'm saying along with learning how to assess patients we must understand the processes going on to help teach and understand how to prevent things if possible.

I am not saying this is definitely how I think but here's a hypothetical for you. Two people walk into the emergency room both presenting with signs of food poisoning. One person ate a bagged salad from the store, the other person was drinking unpasteurized milk.. Would you feel less sympathetic for the person who got food poisoning from the milk because they were drinking risky foods, or would you feel bad for the person who is suffering because farmers in mexico move their bowels in the spinach fields. Neither person deserves to have food poisoning but I can't help but wonder whether I would treat the person who got sick from the salad better because they weren't walking a thin line by drinking the raw milk. IDK just something you think about when you have to take care of people.

One more thing, yes they are coming out with foods with Probiotics and what not... They are completely different types of bacteria and have totally different affects on the body.

Crystalina replied:
The posts I've made in this thread have simply been to "clarify" my original post because it was questioned. My posts have been about what I believe. I do believe I'm doing right by giving my family what I choose to give them. I'm not messing around with E.coli again even though I'm sure it's everywhere. We have done many things different since Olivia died. There are some things we will just never bring into the house and other things that prevent it will always be done. My first post was a simple statement. I will never bring the raw milk in the house. It was questioned and I answered with why and gave examples of places that I refer to. I am not trying to change anyones mind about raw milk. I do not care what you give your family to drink or eat or if they go to public pools. It's not my problem. What I'm trying to say is I'm I'm just pointing out what works for us.

Sorry Rocky. I just wanted to loop this onto your quote. I'm sure it was for everyone in the thread so I don't want you to think I took offense to it.

With that said, I have nothing else to add to this thread. I've said what I had to say. I'm not going to go back and forth and keep quoting people. Like I said, I'm not here trying to change anyone's mind. I'm not the milk police.

moped replied: Mollie - can you answer my question on page 1 - regarding how fattening it is for adults?

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Yes, probiotics is a whole other ballgame, it was just an example.

You are more likely to contract something from some idiot who didn't wash their hands after going to the bathroom than you are to catch ecoli from raw milk.

I'm not so sure I'd want you as my nurse, knowing that you would consciously treat someone else better than me, just because of how I contracted something, no offense, but IMO, if that's how you think, are you sure this is the good field for you?

Crystal - no prob bob! Your circumstance is different than any of us... you've been through it. I'm sure that if someday god forbid something were to happen to someone in my family because of a choice that I've made, I would change a lot of things in my life and my stance on a lot of things would change.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Jen - I'm sure raw milk's fat content is the same as pasteurized milk's fat content, although I'm not 100% certain.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:

HTH some!

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
No kidding. I thought you were supposed to treat patients regardless of your personal feelings about it?

Seriously - if someone came into the ER sick from drinking raw milk, you wouldn't treat them? But if someone got food poisoning from a restaurant, that's OK? Wow.

PrairieMom replied:
I don't think that is what she is saying at all. coming from a person that does patient care all the time, as a care giver you DO make judgments on how your patients came to be in your care. you have your own thoughts and feelings on the subject, its just the reality of the situation. For example, two patients come in, both from a car crash, with the same injurys, one was drunk and hit the other. who do you feel more sorry for? not that you would refuse to care for either one, or that your level of care would change at all, but your thoughts and feelings about each person would be different.

Sorry, off topic.... back to milk...

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
tara, I know what you mean... but she DID say she couldn't help but wonder whether she'd treat one better than the other. I think that's pretty much saying the level of care would be better in one over the other...because of the thoughts and feelings..no?

I'm sure people in the health care field see plenty of things, and make plenty of personal judgements about people and the situations they're in when they seek assistance... but one thing i retain from my nursing credits was that one of the most important things, other than the actual "care", is being "there" for your patients. To put yourself in their shoes - how would YOU feel if you were in their position, a position where you're asked about your poop, your food intake, how much you peed, get poked and proded, have parts of you seen by a stanger who doesn't give a rat's behind about you... but then to be able to FEEL that the person doing this to you thinks you're scum? Empathy. I don't see any, here, and i would hate to be treated by a nurse who can't keep her personal feelings out of it, especially when it comes to the level of quality of my care.

AlexsPajamaMama replied:

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

I took the liberty of putting in bold the statement that comes right back to the other quote you posted.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:

I thought she said she wouldn't treat the person because they were sick from raw milk.

Disregard my comment then .

Hillbilly Housewife replied: LOL!!!

3 people read the same thing in 3 different ways.

Oh Internet, how I love thee.

coasterqueen replied: Wow, and I thought my kids were fighting about pointless things today.

Who freakin' cares what others do. One likes raw milk. Another does. WHO CARES????? All Mollie was doing was pointing out an article on raw milk and that she likes it and possibly educating anyone who MAY want to drink it. I felt like a lot of you did about drinking raw milk. My MIL and I did a lot of research on it to determine that it's just as safe if not safer than a lot of the foods you buy in the store. I mean, seriously, how can you trust companies who make bag salad anymore or hamburger, etc - they SUPPOSEDLY take all these precautions that the government and FDA put upon them but still hmmm.....people get sick and sadly enough there are some who die from it.

The ONLY reason why Mollie keeps posting why she believes what she believes is because all of you, yes you know who you are, who keep CONSTANTLY disagreeing with her and basically telling her how insane she is for her views and ideas. GROW UP!!!!!!!!! She wouldn't have to reply back to your responses if you would either #1 IGNORE HER if you don't like what she posts or #2 BE NICE. This board is so notorious for making comments to people who try to be apart of this board who don't have children because we don't think they have a right to voice their opinion but I'm just amazed at how we can sit here and argue worse than children about why someone does or doesn't want to drink raw milk. Can someone answer me that? Why do you have to keep constantly posting to people you do not agree with OR let's be honest....don't like....it's very clear here.

Before catfighting on here about the most ridiculous things why not remember first what we teach our children because if we aren't following those same "rules" I'm amazed the children are.

If another mod wants to delete this, edit this, warn me, whatever go ahead. I am so sick of the catfighting on this board just because people don't like other people.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Karen

For what it's worth...I'm sick of it too.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: I am so sorry my post came to this. I am sorry for having strong beliefs about things. For the record, I like everyone on this board, even though we are on totally different planets on issues. I have learned a lot from everyone, and I hope some have learned from me.

Please, let's just drop it & be friends again!

I will refrain from posting anything that goes against the "mainstream". It just starts debates.

sparkys2boys replied:
See Mollie that is where you are wrong.... this is what this board is for. But "some" people take it to far as always. We all have strong beliefs about one thing or another and have the right to talk about them or not talk about them. People need to grow up in here and either read the posts by people they don't like or not. If they chose to then they need to learn to either like it or not. Noone in here gets forced to read or make a reply. If you decide to post then do it tastefully and if you can't do that, then don't post at all. Geesh...... I come in here for enjoyment not fighting

My3LilMonkeys replied:
I for one hope that you will continue to make your posts. Even though I don't always agree with what you say and I don't always respond, I enjoy reading your posts because I love hearing your point of view and learning about new things. I've never heard of raw milk and even if I don't ever try it, I've learned something from your information and I appreciate it.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
NEVER be afraid to post things that aren't "mainstream". if you (or anyone) didn't, people would continue to be closed minded and never be exposed to new ideas.

Something like Raw Milk isn't for everyone... and those who choose to listen to the government reports should be happy with that and be comfortable with it... they shouldn't be offended...because by being offended, it's just showing they aren't comfortable with their decision and feel the need to defend it. It's not like you said anyone isn't giving their family the best, you said this is what was best for your family, and posted information about why you think that. You chose to do your own research, and are comfortable with that.. and you're not offended by people drinking pasteurized milk.

I think you bring very interesting information to the forums... and you should continue to do so, in the same manner that you currently do. Variety is the spice of life...some people just like their food commercialized!

PrairieMom replied:
don't do that. I reallydo learn from you. If it haddn't been for things that I have learned on this board, and the people here I would be doing things in my life very differently. Mollie, I can say that with out a doubt, YOU are very responsible for my desire to BF Al, and you weren't even here anymore.

I for one, don't mind a debate. I acutally enjoy them. I do agree that we could all be a bit more sensitive tho. I think the main problem is that you miss a lot of communication over the internet and things are taken in ways they weren't intended.
so

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: Thanks you guys. I am glad that there are some here who appreciate my posts. I think I've done better at holding my tongue & not being so argumentative. I try to put thought and care into my posts before posting, instead of just posting the first thing that pops into my head.



Wow, I wish I was here for you then, Tara! I'm going to send you a PM .

Crystalina replied:
I'm not so sure it's a like/hate thing. I know even though I don't agree with some of the things you agree with I still like you! I disagree with about 80% of what my sister does and I love her. I think people can disagree (strongly at times) yet still remain friends/friendly with one another on other topics.

Look at O'bama and Rev. Wright.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
But your sister is family - I love my family even though I'm the odd one out.

I get what you are saying though .

msoulz replied: I agree with those saying Mollie should continue to post - I too have learned a lot from you. I don't have to agree with you to learn a lot!

I too enjoy a debate, but there is a difference between a debate and an argument. It seems some folks are SO strong in their opinions that they throw respect completely out the window, and there goes the debate into an argument.

And as Karen so well put it before, who cares what other people do/think? It is interesting and educational, but should in no way be insulting or hurtful for someone else to say the do it differently. So in that vein, it really doesn't matter how someone else responds to a post, even if they are disrespectful, why should it matter? It generally takes at least 2 to play the game. If those who choose to respond disrespectfully are basically ignored then the argument stops.

JMHO

boyohboyohboy replied:
mollie, I to only really learn things that are not "mainstream" from you and this board. I enjoy it, I dont always have to agree with what you say, but i sure do enjoy hearing about it, and having someone to ask questions too.
dont change!

MyBabeMaddie replied:
I was saying it as a hypothetical situation. I have cleaned a convicted murderer after pooping himself in bed and rubbing it all over his body. Did he deserve to be cleaned up so nicely even after murdering an innocent man?! Yes, that was my job at the time so I did it. Did I want to? - No. Did I judge that man, yes. Would I refuse to treat anyone, no way! The point I was trying to get across is that people do judge, if those two people came in with food poisoning I wouldn't refuse to treat one or offer better care to one - But it would be something I'd be talking in private about with other nurses.

MyBabeMaddie replied:
I did not say i wouldn't treat them but TBH, I would be at the nurses station talking with a friend about how that patient was asking for it.

MyBabeMaddie replied:
Notice I said "treat them better". I did not say "not treat them."

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
So let me ask you this....We have a bottle fed baby calf. It is Taylor's pet. Something for 4H. Cattle carry EColi in their systems-we are very careful, we wash hands after any contact with her,keep her pen clean,ETC. If by chance we contacted Ecoli from our choice to feed this calf (who BTW would have died with out us intervening) would you treat us differently? It is our choice to take the chance to play with her....so in your mind are we asking for it?

MyBabeMaddie replied:
No I would not treat you any differently. I'm not 100% sure I would treat anyone differently. Ideally I like to treat the patients equally but there have been circumstances that draw the line - Sexual harrassment from the patient. Honestly I don't think I have ever treated anyone differently that I have taken care... I've taken care of a murderer, a drunk driver, a racist, a sexist, someone who said they were in the KKK.... As mad as I get inside about something, I have stayed professional with the patient. Now what I say to my instructor or friends at clinical might not be nice, so far I have managed to walk into the room with a smile and have their needs met.

All people in the healthcare field have a bias. I have a huge bias with a certain group of patients (If you wanna know PM me I'm not going to continue to offend people) - As much as I cringe when I have them - I am always nice, I lend an ear to listen if they want to talk, I take care of their needs and I get the job done.

Like Tara said, you can't help but WONDER if two people came in to the ER due to a drunk driver crash - Would you have more sympathy for the victim who was in the wrong place at the wrong time or the driver who was driving around over the legal limit? Its hypothetical, something to think about.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

If I knew my employees were talking like that about a patient, no matter what that patient did, I'd fire their butt faster than they could finish their sentence.

I definitely wouldn't hire you, just strictly based on the fact that you said you'd wonder whether to treat one better than the other, and because you're gossiping about the patient and their plight, in essence making fun of them. No offense. I hope to never have a nurse with the attitude you claim to have.

My2Beauties replied:
In her defense I think it's only human nature to say things that are on your mind about people Rocky, people gossip at work, it's life

As far as the OP I think we have gotten way off topic and I agree with Karen, we need to stop taking things so seriously. I, for one, have learned to agree to disagree with a lot of Mollie's views but Mollie has opened my eyes about vaccinations, I will continue to vaccinate unlike her but I will ask more questions and my child will receive less vax per visit now because of some things raised in threads she has started. I have also learned about a lot of homemade things to save money from her...etc... Like I said, her views are a little different from mine, well a lot different, but I have had to grow up and learn to re-read her posts before I pass judgment and hurry up and post something real quick in the heat of the moment, sometimes you have to take a step back and think what are their real intentions. I honestly do not think Mollie meant to start WWIII with a raw milk thread.

MyBabeMaddie replied:
Okay tell me this...
An IV drug user contracts chronic Hepatitis C. After developing liver failure they receive a new liver over the older man who has liver cancer. Is that fair?

A person with a 60 pack year history of smoking develops lung cancer. Do you feel sorry for them? - Of course. Is it their own darn fault? - Probably. Would I gossip about them at the Nurses station, probably not because it is so common.

Would I gossip about the two people who got food poisoning, I can't honestly say because I've never been in the situation. But from an outside point looking in, I could see myself saying something about "living on the edge".

I've jumped out of an airplane at 13,000 feet. Was I taking a risk - Yes. If I died would it ultimately have been my own fault? - Yes I think so. I believe if you are going to live risky be ready for the consequences. Thats what I mean when I say I don't think I'd feel as sorry for the person who drank the raw milk and had the runs for a week because they probably knew the risk already.

One more... You go out for a night binge drinking, the next day you can't get out of bed only to throw up. Would I call you an idiot - Yes for sure. Have I done it a million times, you bet. Like I said, you knew when you started drinking the night before what the possible side effects were, you better be ready to face them.

MyBabeMaddie replied: It would be nice never to judge anyone, It's just human nature. What makes the difference is making mental notes, or private statements to close/trustworthy people, as opposed to actually living the bias and treating others differently. I said before I have not treated anyone differently at the hospital because I disagree with them or I don't like something about them. I am very respectful.

When you clean poop off the convicted murderer and can do it in a tasteful manner, then please tell me about who you would hire and what not. It's easy to say something like that but when you actually experience it, I guarantee you will be a little more up for the "gossip" with your co-workers.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied: This is so far off-topic, it's not even funny . Anyone else have questions about raw milk??

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Who's to say I haven't been in a similar situation?

There's nothing wrong with some gossip with coworkers... in a professional atmosphere, people who "gossip" do so out of earshot of others. Maybe outside on a break, or during lunch at the cafeteria... not at the nurses station, not during work hours. You CANNOT be judgemental, on the job, with your field, no matter how much you would want to.

Would I think "idiot" of some of those people? Sure I would. Would I say it? No. Not even to a coworker in passing. Maybe after work, off duty, off the premises, but never ever during the time that I am paid to give care, never anywhere where another patient might hear.

it doesn't matter what's fair and unfair about who gets an organ and the reason why... it's not your decision and not your place to judge. Obviously someone already has and has judged it important for that person to be the one to receive the organ. Anything you have to say about that patient is just your personal opinion... and like many other jobs in the field of health care, your opinion is not warranted.

For risk taking... it really doesn't matter. You do what you do and I do what I do... and as far as we're both concerned, we both think that the other is taking more of a risk, and we both have reports to prove it. One is done by the public for the public, and one is sponsored by the government. Big freaken deal... i wouldn't even have thought twice about caring for you had been injured by doing something reckless and idiotic. I'd have treated you with equal compassion, and wouldn't have even bothered to take the time out of my day to make some comment about how stupid you are for having jumped out a plane, the risks you took, you had it comming etc.... (not saying you're stupid, just btw) because I did the job that I had to do, and made my patient feel slightly better than they did before I came around.

It would be really nice if nobody was to gossip and be judgemental... but you look at this small community that's just here, in PC.. and there is a lot more of that than not... so on a grander scale, yeah, judgemental people are everywhere. But most, in positions of care, have the decency to at the very least, keep it out of earshot of everyone else not directly involved. Not so sure gossiping at the nurses station would help that too much... not sure how YOUR hospitals are, but here, nurses stations are situated where the patients rooms are, and there is constantly people going by, constantly other patients around... family..not very private of a place to make fun of someone. Imagine how the others feel, hearing you talk about someone... they probably wonder what you had to say about them.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. You have a problem with raw milk, fine. Whoop dee doo. I have a problem with car fuel, but you didn't see me snickering with my buddies when you had car trouble a little while ago.

I'd love to see the half of the mainstream people here get by for 2 weeks without electricity, access to a vehicle to go to the store, and running water. I guarantee that the non mainstream people here would get by just dandy, probably, even, as if nothing had changed.


(Glad we're discussing nicely, btw! )

coasterqueen replied:
Yes.

Does your entire family like it? Has it taken some a bit longer to get used to it over others?

Again, like I said before we tried goats milk because my MIL told us it was a lot healthier and easier for the human body to digest. I can't tell you if that's true or not. What are your views on that? I would LOVE to find a farmer who does the cows milk. I've only come into contact with goat milk farmers. Goats milk around here is HUGE - I mean people drive hours to get it and in mass quantities.

AlexsPajamaMama replied: Maybe this is off topic but its for Mollie about raw milk and other things she does...were you raised this way too or did you decide on your own to raise your family this way?

Crystalina replied: Just to defend MyBabeMaddie...I've worked in the medical field and if you think they aren't talking about you when their done taking your stats your mistaken. It's the doctors (yes the doctors are bad at that!), the nurses and the aides. Just about every single one of them. On their breaks, at the nurses station...everywhere. They talk about your weight, your looks, why your their...everything. The nurses don't just ask you info for the "record". No, their getting the scoop on you. It's not all the time in every situation but it happens alot. Hospitals and doctors offices are little Peyton Places.

Sorry Mollie, back on topic.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
I have no knowledge about goat's milk, I have never tried it before. I hope to this summer though, as a neighbor (haha, about 5 miles away) is getting goats for milking and I told her I'd like to try some. I think I might have read it somewhere that yes, goat's milk is easier to digest.

Everyone likes it, no complaints yet. The kids thought it was a bit weird at first, but they all like it. DH doesn't like his with the cream still in it, so I skim the cream off. I love the rich & creamy whole milk LOL. And wow, I never knew goat's milk was so popular!

The milk I get is so cheap too, only $2.50/gallon! It pays to have good friends LOL.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
I never had raw milk before switching last fall or whenever it was. I was a little unsure about it at first, but talking to my friend & doing my own research has convinced me of switching for good.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
I'm sure they think I'm the town kook .

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I know that... and that's probably why I don't tell them more than I know that they need to know.

holley79 replied: What is the difference between Raw and Organic milk?

holley79 replied:
Sorry I had to laugh about the "professionalism" of gossip in the work place. I work for the SO. We have nurses here. There isn't an hour which goes by where someone isn't talking about something. Isn't joking about something off color or even in bad taste. In a career field like this or in the medical field if you weren't able to get things off your chest then it would make the job eat you alive. JMO though.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Raw is straight from the cow (or goat, for goat's milk), organic is certified by usually the USDA as Certified Organic, but it is still homogenzied &/or pasteurized. Raw milk is considered illegal in many places, or can be sold only as "pet food". Check here for availability: http://realmilk.com/where.html .

kimberley replied: in your opinion, what are the greatest benefits of switching from regular milk to raw milk?

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
I think the greatest benefits of switching are nutritional; the natural nutrients & fats are retained and are better processed by the body. During homogenization & pasteurization, those important nutrients are destroyed or made void altogether. The beneficial bacteria are killed off as well.

More can be read here: http://realmilk.com/what.html .

holley79 replied:
The closet place to me if 2 to 2.5 hours away. I just emailed the person though.

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Sometimes they know of other, smaller farms that might be closer to you. You just need to ask around .

Kaitlin'smom replied: so that last link I can see if any are near me? I have always wanted to try it.

Kaitlin'smom replied: okay its banned now in my state and it looks like I have had it...just did not realise it was raw, now I remember it...yummy. but an e-coli outbreak force them to stop selling it.

~Roo'sMama~ replied: If I lived on a farm and had cows I'd probably drink raw milk. I believe it when you say it's better for you in the sense that the nutrients haven't all been killed by the pasteurization process. As far as cleanliness goes, I just found out that part of the reason my sister has never liked milk is because we had friends who had a dairy farm and she saw the dirt and poop falling off the cows into the milk pails while they were being milked - that's disgusting even if you pasteurize it afterwords. I have never tried raw milk - I'm really picky so I'm sure it would be a bit of an adjustment for me but I'd still like to try it. Just think of all the years farmers raised their own dairy cows for their own use - they weren't all dying off in droves. I'm sure the problem is when you have big farms everywhere producing huge amounts of milk, people are bound to start getting careless and then the filth and bad bacteria starts getting out of hand - then pasteurization is most likely the best solution. Another reason I'd love to raise my own milk or get it from a friend as Mollie does is so that I'd know there weren't a bunch of harmful hormones in it. I can't afford to buy organic. I do buy Kemp's Select or Land of Lakes Original since they say they're from cows not treated with rBGH/rBST. Even that was a taste adjustment for me from *regular* milk, so I'm sure raw would be even more. But I'd still love to switch someday.

AlexsPajamaMama replied:
I would too! My step mom grew up on a farm and raw milk and home made butter were what they had.

Boys r us replied: Wow..some of you who are sick of the bickering sure do participate in it a lot!



I think Mollie has a lot of valid input and should continue to post her ideas, even if they are not mainstream..however, I think that when people respond posting their viewpoints, which at times may oppose those non-mainstream views, others shouldn't step up to belittle them either. All sides need to be respected!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mollie seems pretty intelligent to me and I dare say she knew exactly what would happen when she posted this thread..controversy...which is fine IMO. But don't be alarmed when people don't bite into these ideas hook,line and sinker. I don't really see Mollie being put down here or treated rudely..yet I see others stepping up to defend mollie treating other members rudely.

lovemy2 replied:
Hit the nail on the head - well said

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
Yes, that means you can buy it right off the store shelves, or directly from a farm . It's not labeled as "pet food".

mommy~to~a~bunch replied:
I didn't treat anyone rudely . Yes, I knew some people wouldn't agree with it, but I didn't plan on the bickering going back & forth, and to have it go completely off-topic . I appreciate that there are a few here who are genuinely interested in learning more. I apologize once again for starting controversy.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
I agree, in that I also think Mollie is very intelligent!

Can we get back to milk now?

cameragirl21 replied: ok, I had to come out of hiding to respond to this.
First off, to those who don't know me, I'm not a mod here, in fact.

I want to preface this by saying to Mollie, you don't know me but just about everyone here who does, both friend and foe alike would probably describe me as an extreme left winger. I'm not quite as crunchy as you and probably never will be but my main left wing issues are animal rights and the environment and if you scroll back over the last year or so, I'm sure you'll find posts of mine where I lashed out at certain people here who I felt were not being sufficiently kind to animals and I'm sure I hurt some people's feelings in the process. I have to say though, from what I've seen of your posts in lurking here a bit lately, I'm really impressed that you seem to be raising six kids while washing diapers, making your own maxi pads, your own cleaning supplies, etc...you have all my respect...no way could I do all that.
At that same time, Sarah (mybabemaddie), I've always been rather impressed by you because I see you're a very young mom, raising a child on your own with little help from the father or his family and from what I understand, the father hasn't exactly treated you well. All the while getting a degree in nursing which is probably the best degree you can get these days to guarantee your future. You too have all my respect.
As to the topic, raw milk--two thumbs up!!!! I recently got some, it's illegal here in FL but I found it in one of the Whole Foods, sold as pet use only but still good enough for human consumption as selling it for pet use is the only way to sell it legally here. I love it. All the probs I had with pasteurized milk--it used to make my stomach rumble a bit, I was probably mildly lactose intolerant but am a bigtime milk drinker, well, none of that with raw milk and it's delicious. as for it being fattening--remember, it's not homogenized so the fat is more in globules, it's not blended in so it tends to stick to the container or the glass. It's also easy to remove--just freeze the milk, then thaw it and the fat will rise to the top. skim it off and voila, skim milk. As for whether you gain weight, i've actually lost weight on it because it works as an appetite suppressant for me. I find I can go a long time without eating if I have a tall glass. One caveat though--for the first 2 days, it had a bit of a laxative effect on me, that went away by the third day, it takes sometime for your body to adjust to the new bacteria. What with my horrible asthma and allergies, I have to say I've not had an allergic reaction or needed any allergy pills since starting on the raw milk...many people with asthma and allergies are really allergic to pasteurized milk and giving it up makes the allergies/asthma go away. Or you can drink raw milk instead. I absolutely love it.
Here is why I am posting though--it seems that some people are lashing out at Mollie while some, particularly some of the mods are defending her...sounds awfully familiar.
Here is the thing--Mollie, I'm sure Sarah's opinions on raw milk are genuine but I suspect part of the reason she is lashing out at your post on milk is because recently when she asked an innocent question about putting herself and her daughter in matching bikinis, some people really let her have it and you were the first to start it as I recall. Whatever your opinions, there is no reason to make a parent feel like a jerk just because she wants to put her daughter in a bikini and conversely, there is no reason to make a parent feel like she is intentionally harming her child by giving her raw milk which in all fairness, has been consumed by humans since time immemorial.
If you don't like raw milk or think it's unsafe, don't drink it and if you don't want your daughter in a bikini, don't put her in one. There is no need to disrespect people to the point that feelings have to be hurt because had I been in Sarah's place in the bikini thread, what you said, Mollie, would really have hurt my feelings. I know it's hard when you are very passionate about something, believe me it's a lesson I'm trying to learn myself but I lurked and watched this whole "train wreck" unfold and figured maybe respect is a key thing that is perhaps missing sometimes. And believe me, it IS something I'm working on learning myself, it's a lot easier to dole out advice than take it, even if it's your own advice.
As to someone saying or implying that Mollie knew what she said would cause controversy, I don't believe this is the case. While I can't presume to speak for Mollie, I'm pretty sure she'd agree with me when I say that those of us who are not "mainstream" fervently wish that those who oppose our ideas or simply dislike us would just ignore us as if we don't exist. Most of the drama I've witnessed on here was not caused by an original post, no matter how controversial the topic but rather by the way some people responded to it. When you're not mainstream, you're more likely to feel cornered when people belittle your views and are thereby more likely to lash out. Is it right, proper, appropriate? Of course not but it's human nature. For those of us who are eccentric like myself and Mollie, among others, there is definitely an audience for our opinions, and if you don't want to be part of that audience then ignore us, don't talk to us, don't pay attention to us. We're not here to cause drama, we just like a good exchange of ideas. You can't learn from those who think just like you, the most learning you do is from those who are nothing like you. I could write a book about all I've learned here and nearly all of it came from those who are very different from me.
For those of us who are eccentric like myself and Mollie, among others, there is definitely an audience for our opinions, and if you don't want to be part of that audience then ignore us, don't talk to us, don't pay attention to us. We're not here to cause drama, we just like a good exchange of ideas. You can't learn from those who think just like you, the most learning you do is from those who are nothing like you. I could write a book about all I've learned here and nearly all of it came from those who are very different from me.
Ok, back to hiding I go.
Oh, and to those of you who sent me PMs--thanks and thanks for the nice words. Sorry I haven't responded yet, I will though, I'm not ignoring you!

My2Beauties replied:
Beautifully put!

kimberley replied: very well said, Jennifer. it's nice to "see" u.

Crystalina replied:
The black panther and the extremely long post....Yep! Jennifer's here!

Nice to see you!