For those of us still weeping... - moving to Canada

amynicole21 wrote: Thought this was pretty funny

From the Philadephia Inquirer

LOOKS LIKE the worst has happened.

Four more years of fanatical right-wing fundamentalists running the government. Four more years of lies, regressive social policy and Laura Bush.

Clearly, there's only one thing left to do:

Pack up and move to Canada.

You've heard of brain drain? I'm calling this the sane drain - an exodus of progressive people who find the idea of another Bush administration unbearable.

"If the country votes for Bush, then 51 percent of the people in this country are psychos," one Colorado resident told the Denver Post last week.

He opened a bank account in British Columbia weeks before the election. Smart.

So, while you recover from your crying jag, I've done some prep work for you. Herewith, a short guide to our benign neighbors to the North:

1. To emigrate, call the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C. at 202-682-1740 or apply online at cic.gc.ca/English/index.html.

2. If you're drowning your sorrows in booze, drink before you go. You can only bring in 1.5 liters of wine or 1.14 liters of booze without a tax.

3. Oh, and learn what a liter is, fast. Also, kilometers and kilograms. And think celsius instead of Fahrenheit. That's how they measure the temperature. Actually, you might be better off not understanding what the temperature is, because it gets really, really cold there.

4. But at least when you get pneumonia, you won't have to worry about affording a doctor. Canadians have free public health care. That means your meds for post-election depression will be covered, too.

But brace yourselves for some other cultural adjustments.

1. The second language in Canada is French. Can you say cheesesteak avec?

2. Not that they have Cheez Whiz. In fact, their favorite fast food - called poutine - is French fries covered with hard cheese and meat gravy. Bleagh.

3. And forget Krispy Kreme. You'll have to settle for a donut from Tim Horton's, a chain named for a deceased hockey player.

4. Yes, hockey is the national pastime. So say goodbye to baseball, which, for a Philadelphian, might just be a blessing.

5. Finally, some trivia: they have a one-dollar coin they call a "loonie" and a two-dollar coin they call a "toonie." Which presumably means they have a sense of humor. Though not a good one.

These are small sacrifices - except for the Cheez Whiz - to make for sanity. There's no death penalty, real gun control and legal gay marriage.

And, unlike most of the rest of the world, Canadians actually still like us. "We have a tremendous affection for Americans and America," said Tim Woods, a Canadian immigration expert.

And in one way, moving to Canada is returning to our roots.

They do, after all, live under the British Monarchy.

It's taken us all these years to find out, but there is a fate worse than that. *

MommyToAshley replied: LOL!

I hope DH reads this, it might help stop his weeping.

Boys r us replied: HAA!! That is pretty funny!!!

But this one..it makes me cringe everytime I hear it.this one really just kills me:

4. But at least when you get pneumonia, you won't have to worry about affording a doctor. Canadians have free public health care. That means your meds for post-election depression will be covered, too.

Who is it exactly that people believe pays for the medical care in Canada?
OHH that's right the government..and ...where does the government get their money????????? The people.

Nothing is free..not even free healthcare in Canada!

booey2 replied:
Thats right about the "free" medical care. We are now even shelling out more of our after tax dollars for our medical care. The average family pays about $900 per year on top of that which comes out of our pockets thru taxes.

My2Beauties replied: HA HA That is hilarious!!!! That is how I feel, I'm moving to Canada

amynicole21 replied:
I pay close to $900 every two months

DansMom replied:
Thanks, Amy.

My2Beauties replied: The majority of Americans pay out way more than $900 a year, I have a girlfriend whose healthcare costs $800 a month for her family!!!

favre4fan replied:

I actually liked poutine!!

coasterqueen replied: OMG I have to send this to those in the family who made need this .

booey2 replied:
It is actually a lot more because our taxes here are quite high - I am also not sure if it is per month or per year. I usally don't pay much attention to money matters _ I know bad me.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Not only do they have to PAY for their healthcare thru taxes, but the quality of their healthcare is lacking. It usually takes MONTHS for them to get into see specialists. I'm good with our healthcare in America. It may be expensive for insurance, but we have better doctors. IMO. You can't put a price on that.


Anyway, Amy that was funny. Thanks for sharing!

coasterqueen replied:
AMEN sister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BTW....Amy you pay $900 every two months! Holy Moly! I am so glad my DH has good health insurance for us! Not only is it excellent we only pay $95.55 a month for health insurance for Kylie and I; $38.24 a month for dental insurance for us both and $9.53 for audio/visual insurance (total of $143.32 a month).

If we got insurance from my job.. well it's free for me just like DH's but for family it would be outrageous. And sadly enough I work for an insurance non-profit organization. That's why DH is never allowed to leave his job.

booey2 replied: Thank you Amy - I did find it quite funny too.

DansMom replied: Aimee, I have to respectfully disagree just based on my personal experience. I've been terribly dissatisfied with the HMO medical system, and can't imagine how the waiting and quality of treatment could be worse in Canada or elsewhere. Not only can I not ever see my primary care physician without three months notice (I can get in to see some intern in the practice for terrible illness), but she spends about five minutes with me while glancing at her watch. Under the Blue Care Network HMO, I had to wait months to get in to see a pediatric allergist after arguing with his pediatrician that it was necessary. The one time I had a major illness it was misdiagnosed and mistreated due to lack of attention and thoroughness. How hard is mono to diagnose?? What I have to pay out of my paycheck for healthcare coverage goes up every year while the quality of care I've received is abysmal. With Daniel's head wound, we waited 5 hours in the ER without getting looked at, a resident checked it briefly, we waited another hour, and were then told we could leave without our discharge instructions or wait another two or three hours. Canada's doctors/specialists are just as well-educated as those in the US---there are very prestigious medical schools in Toronto and other major cities, just like here.

(Not that I'm planning to move! But the HMO healthcare system is no model of efficiency and high quality care in my opinion.) I am grateful that my employer pays a good portion of my monthly coverage, or I would not be able to afford coverage at all.

My2Beauties replied:
Yes to get into see an optomologist at my mom's work is usually a 4 month wait. She works for an eyecare center. To get into get an annual pap smear I have to wait at least 2 months! I too have problems making appointments with specialists.

kimberley replied: lol YAY now you can all come visit me

jolene555 replied: lol - i started packing my bags last night. i'll go insane if i have to endure another 4 years under republicans!!!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

I guess I am very fortunate that I never have to wait. Even being in Dallas with top specialists I haven't had much of a wait. I guess I spoke too soon and went on heresay instead of true facts. I'm sure Canada has quality healthcare in places and I do know that America's healthcare quality is lacking in areas as well. I have several friends from Canada that have informed me of their experiences back home. Surely it isn't the case for most Canadians to have poor quality healthcare.

My2Beauties replied:

booey2 replied:
Come see me too please....

My2Beauties replied:
I'm considering it

coasterqueen replied: Aimee,

I guess I'm there with you because I have what I would consider excellent health care. Maybe that's because my DH's employer self-funds their healthcare and isn't subservient to someone like a BCBS HMO...I know our insurance plan here is to them. DH's employer chooses which services are covered for this and that and we don't even have a deductible anymore.

Granted our healthcare thru DH was once free and each year we've had to start paying a bit more and we've lost a few coverages here and there but they've always seemed to make up for it in other ways.

We will be screwed literally if he ever loses this job.

kimberley replied: aimee, karen and others, i am just wondering what you are basing your opinion of canadian health care on? i mean, i am 32yo, born and raised in toronto, have 3 kids that require frequent medical care and have no complaints. the longest i have ever waited for anything (from physio, eye exams, OB, x-rays/us, minor surgery) was 3 weeks... i really don't think that is unreasonable. most of our hospitals near me have a children's clinic so they don't have to wait with the grown ups and the quality of care is great imo. sure they could do with a bit more staff... but what hospital doesn't. DH also has extended coverage through his work which covers all dental, prescriptions, physio, eyeglasses, etc that is barely $40/mo.

favre4fan replied: I'll be packing up when Austin turns 18 DH wants to move back home to Montreal eventually.

coasterqueen replied:
Well I discussed with you a bit before about the man from Canada my DH worked with for a bit but I've since talked to other Canadians that appeared to have his opinion as well. That's my only other sources of information.

I think it's the *idea* of having a government run health care system HERE in the US that scares the living daylights out of me. Think about it....okay so they offer a government run health care system BUT we also would have the right to an HMO or whatever health care we'd like if we so choose to pay for it. Ok....that would be fine and dandy at least we have a choice BUT what do you think businesses are going to start doing? They are going to say and especially if they ever get into financial difficulty of any sort? They are going to say there is a government run program so why should we offer health care anymore? Especially small businesses... they are going to drop this benefit like a fly. I WANT the choice...I don't want to be forced onto one program. I work my butt off for those freedoms and I want to keep them that way. I'm not saying our health care system is great but we do have choices and I like that.

I'm not for big government anyways. I don't want to give all my freedoms to the government and don't want the government to make all my decisions for me...that's one reason I am republican.

Boys r us replied: I have friends who are Doctors, several of them..some of them are not from this country, but they have said on many occaisions that we have by far the best health care out there in the US. Now Obviously, I've never sought healthcare anywhere but int he US..so I do't know anything excpet from what I hear. But my own thoughts on the matter are this:

I have excellent coverage, I can pick and choose what dr's I go to or specialist..and yes I pay a little more for this type of coverage not to be locked into an HMO, but that is my choice, just as it is someone ele's choice to elect to go with a HMO.

If our government were to "pay" for our healthcare..that money cannot come from anywhere except for our pockets, by taxes. Sure some people would get relatively free coverage b/c they are low income..but the people who have prospered in their careers and make excellent money would then be paying for their helathcare and their neighbors..ya know..b/c they are paying the higher taxes..this is not fair. Secondly, when the government takes over and begins providing our healthcare, they likely would mandate lower provider costs..meaning doctors getting paid less...thus resulting in a lack of interest in the profession and the good dr's going somewhere else..where their careers can be more lucrative. Don't think that would happen? I know lots of dr's who come to the US to practice medicine because in their own country they cannot make a comfortable living being a dr..or at least not like they can here. Which in the end..results in a lower standard of healthcare or a shortage of healthcare.
Sure it's horrible to hear about the elderly who have to choose between eating or taking their meds..and that's something our government needs reel in and work on..but even knowing that ..it doesn't get me excited about the government playing Robinhood..and stealing from the rich to pay for the poor's healthcare.

Besides all of that, when I think of the government taking over our healthcare and all of that..all I can foresee in my head is our country losing it's democracy and slowly turning into a socialist country...what's next? The same thing Russia tried with their citizens? Testing them and PLACING or rather forcing them into careers that suit their "talents". I'd just rather have the freedom to choose my level of healthcare and be responsible for paying for it!

coasterqueen replied: Oh Nicole..you have great points!!!! Thanks for that post.

booey2 replied: All I know is that here now due to government cutbacks we are starting to pay for our healthcare more than thru our taxes and we will eventually become a two-tiered healthcare society. We also have a huge doctor shortage going on but things are being done - like new medical schools opening to try and eliviate this problem.

redchief replied: Hey... Look over that fence. Hmmm... the grass looks greener.

LOL

kimberley replied: we have choices too. i have a choice of which doctor or specialist i choose. almost every employer in Toronto offers a benefit package for extended health coverage even though the basic services are "free". yes, the tax issue is true but those dollars go for more than just health care. i just don't agree with the argument that the US has a superior health care system than Canada. i have heard many people complain of long waits and outrageous costs in the US. i mean i would never have any kids if i had to pay $10,000 each! the way i see it, you already have a two tiered system. the middle-upper class can afford to pay $90/mo for better service but the poor get stuck with a crappy HMO. what is the difference?


omg, i can't spell today.

mama3x replied: Oh believe me I would love to move to Canada! I am sure it has changed since I was last there (I think I was 8 yrs old) but from what I remember, it was a beautiful place! We went through Winnipeg, Calgary, District of Columbia and Vancouver. Maybe more.

I actually don't know how much we pay for medical insurance in a year but we have Kaiser and I love the way they treat each one of us! I don't know if the Hawai`i Kaiser is different from the mainland but it seems like it. We love our respective doctors and got GREAT compassionate treatment from the NICU staff with DD. I admit we do sometimes have to wait quite a bit in the waiting room for our appointment and medication but still, it's not bad.

However I don't know what's going to happen with 4 more years of Bush and his Republicans...may we all come out unscathed...especially women and children...

Boys r us replied: My sole complaint in all of this is just this one, I get tired of hearing how Canada has free healthcare..they don't! Someone pays for it, it's not the government! The government merely collects the money from the taxpayers and then pays it into the healthcare system. Works out great for the less fortunate..sucks big time for the people who make significantly more! and I'm VERY thankful for being in complete control of my OWN healthcare and knowing that I am only responsible for paying for dr visits and medicine for myself and my own two kids.

booey2 replied:
I can totally agree with you there.

coasterqueen replied: See I think that's where I agree with Nicole. I like that I'm paying for me and my kids..not everyone else. I already work full time, have to leave my child in daycare and not only do I pay taxes which benefit those who are on government programs such as WIC, Kids Care and such but I also pay for other government programs to help out those who are less fortunate. WHat do I get back out of this? Some and I do mean only some of my tax dollars I've paid throughout the year? Yeah right..most years I've had to PAY on top of what I've paid for all year.

I just don't want to pay for any more programs for other people. It's bad enough I have to work just to pay for my own. Maybe it's the "survival of the fittest" crap my dad put into my head, I don't know.

I understand not everyone is fortunate to have a good job and I don't think any less of anyone who doesn't honestly. I love all. It's just that I went from being so extremely poor...DH went from a poor family too and even at times ate out of dumpsters too working our butts off to get where we are (albeit we are in debt to our ears) to have freedoms of so much that I just don't want to pay for more governmental programs to benefit others.

Sorry...maybe i should just delete this because my intentions are NOT to offend anyone here. I love you all.

booey2 replied:
You aren't offending me at all. I think that maybe it is because this is all I have ever known that it doesn't bother me that the system is the way it is. I feel that as long as you have paid into the system you should be able to benefit from it. An example is our 1 year maternity leave that has just come into effect and there is possible talk of going to 2 year maternity leave paid at 60% of your wages the same as the 1year mat. leave.

coasterqueen replied:
Now I could go for the longer maternity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My2Beauties replied:
You haven't offended me but before I started my new job I was a recipient of WIC. I've argued this with other people before and it's just a matter of opinion. When it comes to children I could care less what they take out of my taxes. If my tax money is going to help some child get the right formula or a toddler whose mother can get milk and nutritious food for him I am all for it. NO I am not for the people who lay on their butt all day and have 8 kids and draw welfare year after year, that is where the system sucks and goes wrong, however the system is good for many poor people trying to get on their feet!!! I went through college on financial aid because my mother and father are dirt poor. I don't see how anyone who has ever been poor is a republican When I was growing up my parents didn't eat sometimes so that they could affford my food, we didn't have any furniture in our house, we didn't have any heat, and we didn't have any air!!! My house was infested with bugs and we couldn't even afford an exterminator! My mom and dad are both very educated people, my mom has 2 associates degrees in the medical field and her job only paid around $6-7 an hour, my dad was a supervisor at a vending company and they struggled to make ends meet. They never once could get assistance because of the stupid laws. They think that an income of $15,000 a year with a child is sufficient! MY df and I make pretty decent money and we struggle as well. Bush has been quoted telling the rich that they are his people...he cuts taxes for the rich, takes money away from social programs to benefit the wealthy, and don't even let me get into his environmental record!!!! He is so hypocritical because he calls abortion murderbut is the first to sign off on capital punishment which is murder as well!! Sorry I got off into another subject but I've worked my butt off too and I still continue to live paycheck to paycheck. I think it is society's rights to help their fellow citizens, I have no problem helping anyone out with in reason because God forbid something tragic happened to me and I needed some assistance I would hope that it was there for me.

I don't want to start a debate but this is what I don't understand about things. Like I said it's all a matter of opinion and upbringing. Survival of the fittest may be come peoples motto but in the long run that hurts the weak who don't deserve it. Ok sorry to cotinue on I thought I was done but I have one more example, my DF's uncle suffered a massive heart attack and he is unable to work because of it, he is only collecing $500 a month in Social Security, how's that for a nice country to live in

mama3x replied: Hey I am for that longer maternity leave too!!!!! That's one thing the U.S. doesn't have: good benefits for new mommies. I read an article not long ago that we sadly lag far behind other countries when it comes to maternity leave and childcare. That's sad b/c without women having babies, the world wouldn't go on!

coasterqueen replied: Oh hannasmommy don't even get me started about social security in this country!

It won't even be there for you and me and the way it is now...we'll be in our graves before we are at the retirement age.

BUT the good thing about social security is you only get it if you work..so it's a benefit that you reap if you pay into it....now we know it's not a good benefit but at least only those who pay into it get it.

I'm not sure if it was Bush...I think maybe it was but I"m all for the idea of letting ME have what I'd pay in social security so I could be responsible for investing it myself!

mrshires replied: To start, I'm not offended by anyone, but I did want to put my point of view out there too. These posts mirror a lot of what I've heard this election that frightens me.

IMO The idea of some of my money paying for others is ok. The idea is that if you make society better it makes everyone's lives better. What do you think of Medicare and Social Security? Those programs are the same idea as the medical system in Canada. Every system has its faults.

The main problem with our healthcare system (from someone who worked for BCBS, and saw what everyeone's employers PAY for the coverage they have) is that the costs keep growing and growing. It's still working now, but there will be a point when it will not. Currently it's around 17% a year. I had self-insured companies that I managed their bills. They pay premiums to use the networks that are in place. So even tho they are deciding which claims to pay, etc, they are also paying a fee every month to the insurance company, and it's not small. To give one example of a self insured company using BCBS computers, providers, etc, a single person cost $225/mo, and a family $300/mo. This is not counting any claims, etc, this is just the monthly fee to the company that was paying their own claims. Small business premiums are no better than having individual policies, and sometimes worse. Many small businesses I dealt with went to buying all of their employees individual policies. When everyone complains of the cost of COBRA coverage, realize that's what your employer pays every month while you work.

And for longer maternity, that would be great, but where are those 60% of your wages coming from while you're home with your baby??

My main problem isn't with healthcare, or any one single issue. The mentality of every man for himself I see as dangerous. The people that get left behind do have an effect on everyone.

My2Beauties replied:
Yeah, I agree about the SS thing!!! It won't even be around for you and me!! I guess that is why I am glad I started investing in my 401K early!

My2Beauties replied:
I totally agree!!! I work for Humana and I see the same thing happening that you saw! It's extremely sad and going to blow up in everyone's faces one day!

booey2 replied:
Actually it is now coming out of the Employment Insurance that they take off my paycheque every week - up here in Canada.

mrshires replied: I read something when I was 12, in 1991 or 2, that more people my age believed they had SEEN a UFO than believed there would be social security when we were of age to collect it. It is not a perfect system.

What it was created for was to provide enough money to keep people from starving on the streets. It was never meant to be sole retirement income, nor was it meant to keep people at their standard of living from when they were working.

Amanda

I actually kind of like debates....

coasterqueen replied: I work for an insurance non-profit organization that lobbies for big health insurance companies and....you may have seen it from working for an insurance company but you have NO idea until you've seen it from the lobbyiest viewpoint. Let me tell you..it's not pretty.

I agree something needs to be done in our country to "curb" premiums...but until all the trial lawyers STOP placing frivilous medical malpractice lawsuits...it ain't going to happen. That's why I thank god Kerry's lacky..Edwards...is not going to be VP.....an evil trial lawyer himself .

coasterqueen replied:
LOL! Yeah Terri...nothing is free .

mrshires replied:
Oh I know! And I'm not against it at all

I was meaning the ppl in the states. It's back to the idea of everyone paying in and benefitting, or having every man for themselves

Sorry for the lack of clarity there!

Amanda

darrylswifeskylersmom replied: hehe! I AM CANADIAN!
i love that made me chuckle!

jcc64 replied: While I find it difficult to swallow that there are abuses of every gov't assistance program, I cannot accept living in a society where it's all about me and mine and f*** everyone else and their sorry lives. I honestly don't know how we can see ourselves as the beacon of hope on the planet and yet turn our backs on the suffering of many of our weakest citizens.
The vast majority of people living below the poverty line in this country are children. I'm not sure how one can comfortably apply Darwinian theory about survival to children.
Once upon a time many moons ago, Mr. Bush annointed himself the "compassionate conservative." I have yet to see any evidence of this much touted compassion in any of his policies. Apparently, the majority of my country is fine with this utter disregard for its weaker citizens. I will never feel completely happy in my own prosperity if I know my neighbors are suffering. I thought charity and empathy were moral values too.
I don't mean to sound sanctimonious, and I am not judging or condemning those who celebrate his victory tonight. But I am filled with a profound sadness and concern for those whose well being will never be a priority of this administration.

Boys r us replied: Charity and empathy are very moral values...it's just that I don't want to be forced into it. I have a huge heart and I volunteer with foster kids through a catholic charities group, I already contribute 3% of every paycheck to a sound charity, on top of that, I usually contribute in many other ways, both financially and physically all year long to help those in need...but I do it on my terms, not because the government is forcing me to. ya know.. I mean, I already donate a portion of my paycheck to another "CHARITY" that I will never be able to use, social security!
Which is a perfect example..who could fathom wanting the government to control their healthcare when they've already taken a stab at controling our retirement funds and failed miserably???
jeez...not me!

Kirstenmumof3 replied: Okay I just have to say "YES WE DO HAVE CHEEZ WHIZ!" My DH is in histerics right now! That was too funny!

Kirstenmumof3 replied:
Thank You Kimberley! That comment really bothered me as well! Our Health Care system may not be perfect, but tell me what health care system is!

jcc64 replied: Not everyone is as proactive as you seem to be, Nichole. If everyone invested as much energy into caring for their neighbors as you do, perhaps we wouldn't need to have this conversation. But the sad fact of the matter is that most people, including our elected officials, give lip service to charity and not much more, and many many people (again, mainly children) are suffering.
And like it or not, we as a society don't seem willing to practice fiscal responsibility. People typically consume far more than they can afford, amass enormous debt, and save little or nothing for retirement. Maybe you save, maybe some people you know do as well, but trust me, more don't. So, without S.S., or Medicare/Medicaid, if legions of aging baby boomers start showing up in hospitals uninsured, penniless, and gravely ill, your solution would be.... what? Throw 'em out in the streets, survival of the fittest, should have saved more money when they were younger, tough luck. Like it or not, it's all of our problem. Pay now, pay later, but pay we will. I prefer the attempt to address the problem, however imperfect it may be.
And btw, if we're concerned about the future health of our economy, maybe we need to revisit the costs of establishing democracy all over the world when we can't take care of our own.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Kimberly and Kirsten I sincerely apologize for my comment. I'm sure my basis was formed solely on personal experiences by my Canadian friends. I do hope you accept my apology.

Regarding everything else being said, to me it is a double edged sword. I have been on both sides of the fence. I don't know what the answer is, really. I do hope there is an answer out there. It hurts my brain to think about it quite frankly, but you all have great points.

coasterqueen replied: I'm sorry if I offended anyone either. It wasn't my intention. I clearly stated that our healthcare system isn't great either...I just want the choice to have it from whomever I want and whatever coverage I want. I don't want to rely on my government to get that. I think what's wrong with our country is we rely too much on our government and that's a sad thing IMO. We screw up and we expect the government to bail us out. The matter of fact is that we do make mistakes...whether it be financially or whatever the case may be...we need to own up to those and not turn to the government every time. I know that's a generalized statement but it's true.

I too give to many charities...volunteer, etc, etc. I don't want to be forced to give to certain charities..I want the freedom. Maybe I want to give my money to helping pets instead of some other charities...that's my right and I want to do so. I don't want to be forced by any government to give to any charity.

I've single handedly seen many and I mean MANY people who abuse the WIC program in my state.....my ex aunt and SIL included. It makes me sick that they can abuse it and I pay for it. I'd rather help those who don't want to abuse it in other ways/charities. There are TONS of women/children groups in our area that I much rather give my time, money and physical items to then wanting to give my money to WIC. Again I'm not trying to offend anyone here on it....only those who abuse it. Thankfully we opened our eyes years ago and are making it harder to abuse but that doesn't change the fact that I bust my ass on a daily basis working while my child is being raised by a dcp so I can give money to it. This is all another issue I don't care to get into.

We all aren't going to see eye to eye on our country..that's the great thing...we all can have different opinions. I voted for Bush but there are things I don't agree that he has or is doing....but I would be ignorant to think that any president/president to be could be perfect enough for me to agree on ALL of their issues. It just doesn't seem realistic to me. And I'm really sorry to say but those who feel Kerry would have done such a great job and are putting him on such a high pedestal.....he would have ended up doing something someone didn't like and I could almost bet my home that he would have not kept all his promises. Has there been one yet who has? Please! I've been working too deep into politics for the past five years to ever believe EVERYTHING a politician says. I'm too intelligent for that and so are you.

I'm not going to pretend to know ALL about other countries and their policies but I have noticed these past few days especially and maybe not here so much but in other places that those from other countries don't have any reservations at slamming the US but when someone says a differing opinion about their country they get defensive.

I would be just as upset if Bush had lost but you know what....I have complete faith in our system...in this country and if the people chose to have Kerry instead I'd live with it and make the best of my life...not rely on just the government to do so. There are soooooo many other ways mentally I can better my life that to sit and worry about what the government is going to do. It's going to happen whether I want it to or not.

((HUGS)) to everyone and again I'm sorry if I offended anyone before or now. The one thing I know is that I belong to a great group of people here and respect everyone's opinion...I'm just sorry that we can't accept we have a difference in opinions and be fine with that.

Jamison'smama replied: wow, this is an interesting debate--we have many intelligent and well spoken people on this board and that makes it exciting. I have learned things from many of the posts and can certainly see why people feel the way they do. We come from many backgrounds and therefore many different views of society. Just to add my 2 cents, which I rarely do as I stink at this. Before my graduate degree/counseling career, I was a social worker doing in-home case management. Most of my clients were well below poverty level. Certainly I saw my share of people abusing the system, but really, it was not as common as I thought it was and most "abusers" came from a long line of people who benefited from government assistance so is it fair to call them abusers or is it really all they know at this point? Is it better for our society to say...I'm sick of people abusing the system so I don't want to give my money to these people or should we look at the root of the problems and elect/hire/pray for people to help us change the systems to make them better---more accessible for those who need the help less so for those who could benefit from services other than cash assistance--ie job training, linkage to child care, money/debt management etc.? As it is now, many of the people who need services are not getting it because it is so darn hard to jump through the hoops while actually trying to make it without the help---the people who may be the abusers are more aware of what is available and how to get it. I don't have the answers--I think we all have to do our part to make this country what it is and to support each other--and hold our politicians accountable!.

This is pretty off topic from the original post but I love the debate and I loved the original post--Thanks Amy

MommyToAshley replied:
Very well said. You should participate in these debates more often.

I agree that the problem with our gov't run assistance programs is that we are just shoving money at people and not doing anything to help them become self-supportive. I don't have the answers either. But making it easier for people on assitance to get an education and job training sure sounds like a good start to me.

Edited to say: As for insurance, our situation really sucks. We are self-employed and therefore responsible for the entire insurance premium (the part that your employer pays). We can't afford those premiums, it is just outrageous. But, yet we pay taxes and pay for assistance for other people. So, while we can't afford insurance for oursleves, we pay for other people's insurance through gov't run programs. And, I still don't think a gov't run health program is the way to go.

txtatum replied: that is so cute!

amynicole21 replied: My only gripe is that people complain to no end about helping their fellow American, but don't feel the least bit angry that over $270 billion has been spent to supposidly "help" Iraqis?

Sorry, I know that will start a whooooole new debate, but it burns my britches

coasterqueen replied:
Well I don't know about others but I'm not so thrilled about that either....but I guess in order to insure our safety here in America we had to go to war and in turn that means helping a society much worse off than ours get some sort of structure in place so they can help themselves even more. I could go more in depth with that but I'm too tired this morning, lol. We either help them or let them bomb us again.....not a very good statement there but you know what I mean.

And whether it was President Bush or whoever could have been president...they would have went to war maybe not as quickly but they would have done it AND that in turn would have meant us spending the money we are there. Remember Kerry wanted to go to war too...maybe not as fast or as harsh but he voted for us to go too.....I think it's easy for you to say that because you don't know what Kerry would have done or Gore or whoever and you don't particularly like this president BUT the fact remains we were attacked first and no matter who was president....many in congress wanted us to go to war too and Bush couldn't do that on his own. I just wish people would stop bashing the president for what he did when they have NO idea what their choice of president would have done. Don't people say...."don't judge me until you've been in my shoes"? Well this should apply to him as well. He is just as human as the rest of us.

jdkjd replied: Just to clarify. Not to flame. But Iraq didn't bomb us or attack us.

Osama Bin Laden did and he isn't even a priority for the current administration.

And Kerry said he would have gone to war on the information that WMDs were a threat. But since there have been no WMDs found at this date, he said that he would have been more hesitant to go to war. At this point, all of the original intents for going to war with Iraq (not Afganistan) have been found to be untrue.

I have supported the war with Afganistan (since they are the ones who attacked us) and I support our troops where ever they are because they are doing their jobs.

I have, however, serious reservations about the current situation in Iraq due the lack of evidence for our original reasons for going there.

(I promise I was avoiding this discussion like the plague, but felt I needed to clarify a couple points)

coasterqueen replied:
Point well taken....but he resided in Iraq and I'll bet my home he was in cohorts with Saddam and anyone else was!

Boys r us replied: Exactly what Karen said!
Have you seen the pictures of mass graves...pictures of Iraqi mother's holding their infants laying there dead with a bullet hole in the back of their head..yeah Americans have it sooo bad..America is far from perfect, but I think our problems were and are insignificant compared to those under the ruling of Saddam! Besides, Kerry voted to go to war...the almighty Kerry was assigned to a homeland security committee days after 9/11 and he bothered to show up for 4 out of 15 meetings...in his 20 some odd years in politics, he's bothered to vote on about 7 things, which aside from voting to go to war, most were things like, should we protect this swamp land in such in such state...Sure bush has made a few mistakes along the way..but how in the world do you vote for someone who doesn't even take our homeland security SERIOUSLY DIRECTLY AFTER 9/11..I'm a democrat and I couldn't vote for him...He's sure got a whole lotta bark..but no bite!

jdkjd replied: There are mass graves all over Africa due to genocide occuring in over ten countries there but we aren't ar war with any of them.

I guess my point is that we have plenty of problems here without trying to "fix" problems in other countries without having reasons that are relevant to the U.S. (hence my supporting the Afg. war and not the Iraq one)

DansMom replied:

ITA---couldn't have said it better myself.

coasterqueen replied:
I just want to say one thing here Jeannine.....I don't have the mentality to screw everyone else and just worry about mine.....if you read my posts clearly I said that I want the RIGHT to choose who I give my money too NOT be forced into doing so. I give to those in need and DON'T turn my back on them so I am offended that you would think so..but maybe I shouldn't because you really honestly don't know what I do in my own life but I feel the need to have to clarify that.

Now it has been asked that this thread be locked before someone gets hurt so I guess I will do so. I will say I'm very sad that I can't come here to a forum of what I like to think of as very close friends and talk about things like this. I felt we were doing ok but some must think we can't handle this debate..I think we can. I guess you just can't talk about some things with friends...huh . Very sad IMO.