Euthenasia?

Nina J wrote: I know this is probably quite a debate starting topic. I don't intend to start any sort of debate, unless it is civilised. In all honesty, curiosity got the better of me. The abortion topic, for some reason, made me think of this.

I made it a poll though, so people don't have to post anything. Although I would be interested to read peoples views.

Personally, I would never help someone to die, and I would not want to have my life ended.

However, I understand some people, particuarly very ill people, would rather end their suffering. I could play no part in it, not for my mother, my father, anyone. I would never be able to do that.

Personally, I want to die when God chooses to take me. I hope and pray I never end up so ill and frail I cannot care for myself. I hope if I did, I would be treated with dignity. But I would wait until God took me home, I wouldn't take it in to my own hands.

Nina J replied: Just wanted to add, I am asking this question on a more personal level. Not on whether you think it should be legal or not.

But, on the subject of whether or not it is legal. I don't have a preference either way. It is not something I would chose to do or be part of, but I don't think others who may want to end their suffering should be denied. In the end, it is something that cannot really be monitored. I would rather someone be able to end their life peacefully with some sort of drug rather than have to take a more painful method of ending their life.

So long as the person chosing to end their life is of the mental capacity to do so. I have discusses this topic with friends, and they support all types of euthenasia including infant euthenasia. If the person is not mature enough to grasp the concept, i.e. not an adult, I don't think it can be classed as euthenasia.

Which brings me to another dilema; if I don't class them as able to decide, then most definately a fetus cannot have a choice in whether or not it should be denied life. But, I have said I would never abort my baby. But like euthenasia, I don't think others should be denied that choice.

Crystalina replied: I'm sure it's no surprise that I would support this. Now whether I could do it to someone is a totally different subject. I don't like to see anything die. When DH has to kill something here on the farm due to sickness or injury I go into the house and turn the music/t.v. up very loud so I don't have to hear the gunshot (if it's something planned our vet comes out with the needle). If it were me though, I know I would not want to live if my quality of life were drastically altered and I think the same compassion we have for animals we should also give to humans. But with that said I think the person needs to understand what they are requesting 100% and it needs to be made clear their life will never improve. I think there should also be many witnesses to this persons choice because if not it would make murder way too easy.

stella6979 replied:
I absolutely agree with you Crystal.

luvbug00 replied: I actually do support this. ONLY if the person requests this years prior with a sane, compitant mind in their will.

(just so ya know, for me the differance between this and abortion. you are making a choise about your body and you are the only person effected. with aborition you are making a choise for another life who has no say in what you choose.)

Boo&BugsMom replied: Nope. I personally believe God takes people when He thinks it's their turn, not when we think it should be.

boyohboyohboy replied: I do support this. I have been a hospice nurse and alzheimers care nurse for 12 years. I dont know that I believe in what dr Kavorchian did, however, I have given people medication when they are in a state of pain that will end their life. I have withheld food and Iv fluids from them in order to save them the pain of choking on it, that I know will cause their end of life.
I am a strong advocate of end of life comfort. I love my job.
I hope to someday return to this once my kids are older.
I will say that I have never been asked to care for a young dying person, and dont know if that would change my mind. I have never and would not consider taking on a terminally ill child.
I guess in my own mind, I have found it easier dealing with the end of life support because my patients have all lived long lives.
I do also support everyone getting a living will and advanced directives. I think that they are so important.

mckayleesmom replied: I did a term paper on this when I was younger. I would fully support this if they made it avaiable to people. We put animals to sleep when they are in pain..why not people?

Most people in enough pain will try and sometimes succeed in doing it themselves...Why not let them do it with dignity instead? I would rather go that way then have somebody find me after I did it myself.

cameragirl21 replied: I definitely support this although I think it is a necessary evil. I wish medicine were advanced enough that this weren't necessary but it's not. I remember when I first embarked upon my Lou Gehrig's project I was asking my doctor about it because she said that when she was in med school there was a doctor who was a world famous specialist for this disease so she saw a lot of this disease even though technically it is a rare disease. And she said that when these people die it's a relief because the end of their lives is so hard. I don't think it's humane to force anyone to suffer as long as there is no medical cure or treatment for what they have.
A better question, at least imo, is--would you support exerimental treatment on someone who is terminally ill? If someone is dying for sure and there is nothing anyone can do but a doctor or researcher has an idea that s/he wants to test, would you support these experimental treatments on the terminally ill? And I am not talking about Goebbels style experimentation, I mean humane, dignified testing, like for instance, I participate in many asthma studies and I see nothing inhumane or undignified about them, I love being a part of science and helping doctors and pharma companies learn more about asthma.
Would you support this?

Crystalina replied:
I believe that that is what makes me stand behind this so much. When you are a nice healthy person and you go to work everyday and watch people dying....it is very hard. In the nursing home I worked at for about 8 yrs we had a Hospice wing and it was just so sad to see people of all ages (children included @ times) come in to wait for the end of their lives. With the elderly you expect them to be tired and say it all the time. They just want to "go home". But when you see a person your age or maybe a bit younger or older who would have a long life ahead of them if it were not for whatever was slowly killing them then I can't see how you would not want the end to come quickly for that person. You know they aren't getting better...ever.

But when our dog is terminally ill we give him/her the compassion of being put to sleep because we love them that much. Hmmm, makes you wonder doesn't it?

PrairieMom replied: I DO support it, and I have done it. As an RT it is my job to remove life support when familes / dr's decided its time to do so. I am the one that "pulls the plug"
I am in a unique position, being able to see first hand that there really are things worst than dying. I will leave it at that.

Actually, I won't.

I would have absolutely no issue with deciding to withdraw support (pull the plug) on any of my family members if they wished, and stated it in a living will, I would never go against their wishes either way. this includes my children. if you have seen what I have seen, you would understand.

PrairieMom replied:
So, what do you feel about heroic medical procedures, like Prolonged CPR and life support? tube feedings and what not. There are so many times when extraordinary measures are taken, and the line between letting Gods will happen or not gets really really fuzzy.


and lets just say for a second that we aren't talking about our selves. What about other family members that don't have living wills? these situations take you by surprise more often than not. I can't count now many times I have seen families argue and agonize over what to do with their loved ones. Unfortunately, some are saved/ or lost in the process.

TheOaf66 replied:
God has taken care of that for us, we have enough money to keep one of us on Life Support for about a week

PrairieMom replied:
ah hah... tricky tricky, it is illegal to withdraw life support because someone can't pay. Its called murder. My hospital has had people on LS for Years, and will never be able to recoup that $.

and I know you were being light, I just wanted to make a point.

cameragirl21 replied: see, I have a question about this whole "God's will" thing--I know some people believe that birth and death are all by God's will and there should be no interference. So then what about infertility treatments? For instance, very often, people get infertility treatments and have 5, 6,7 kids in one pg and I hear them thanking God over and over again. But wasn't it God's will for them not to get pg? Or is the fertility treamtent God's will and if so, then is science God's will and if it is then why not euthanasia which is also science at work?
Again, not trying to befuddle or upset anyone but I've wondered about this for a long time...what ultimately defines God's will?

TheOaf66 replied:
is it really a life if they are on life support, is it really killing

Ok I am being naughty now

PrairieMom replied:

PrairieMom replied:
its up to the individual. It is different for everyone.

Kentuckychick replied: I assume we're talking about "Assisted suicide" here.

I can't say that I agree or disagree with it because for me it's circumstancial and for me, it's the kind of thing I tend to say "Unless you've walked a mile in those shoes..."

I see it this way. I remember watching my grandfather suffer in the hospital for five long and agonizing months. He was dying from emphasema (sp?) and had been on a ventilator the entire time. Yes he was awake and alert. Yes he was able to eat and drink. Yes he was able to whisper and sometimes even enjoy small games. But, that machine was the only thing keeping him alive. After those five months, all the suffering, and countless attempts to wean from the vent without any success, he made the painful decision (along with my grandmother) to be removed from the ventilator... and to die.

This is not considered 'assisted suicide' because a machine was keeping him alive. They gave him a hefty dose of morphine so that he wouldn't struggle and they slowly turned off the machines.

When I think about it, is it really any different than giving a patient in the final stages of a fatal disease a lethal dose of morphine to end their misery? If that's their choice... then who am I to say no.

I didn't have any questions or problemse when my grandfather went through it... I wanted what was best for him and I wanted his suffering to end. I can totally understand why in some cases a doctor would 'help the death process along' to benefit the patient.

Crystalina replied:
Yes, as we've learned here all too often.

jcc64 replied: I had the privilege of being with my dad round the clock in the final week of his life as he was dying of kidney cancer at the age of 62. We knew he was going to die for about the last 6 months of his life, and we knew the way it would happen: his lungs would fill up and he would basically drown in his own fluids, which is exactly what happened. Hospice got involved in the last week, and I will say that Hospice nurses represent my conception of angels of mercy here on earth. They asked my father how much pain relief he wanted--how much consciousness was he looking for. At this point, my father was completely agitated and petrified, and completely aware of what was going on. He wanted to slip from consciousness- facing down imminent death fully conscious was far too much for him. And so the nurses administered VERY heavy doses of morphine, and he was dead within 24 hrs. This all happened on my father's terms: in our house, with his dogs on the bed, and his family around him.
It's very nice to say that we should all wait for God to decide when it's our time. I don't know what kind of God would prefer that someone drown in their own fluids, and if that is indeed his preference, it's not a God I want anything to do with.

mammag replied: Though I have no problem with withdrawing life support if that is what the person wants, I am against assisted suicide.

Crystalina replied:
That was horrible to read so I can imagine how it was to go through.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That is apples and oranges to me, trying to save a life (CPR) vs. taking someone's life just because they "want to die".

Also, "pulling the plug" is a much different situation to me than just off and letting someone die by injecting them with poison.

When I think of euthanasia, I think of an assisted suicide where someone says "I want to die", and they are assited in dying, like Dr. Death. That, to ME, is wrong if they just want to die and they don't even have any health problems. But if someone has been on life support for an extended amount of time and there is no end in sight, and the family decides to let them go, that is a different situation to me. I don't consider "pulling the plug" assisted suicide because usually everything has been done to try and save them first. Make sense? There are some situations like this, where I wouldn't consider it euthanasia but some might. It really depends on each situation.

I also do not compare us to animals. My dog poops outside in the lawn, do you? Ok, perhaps nobody should answer that one, just in case.

I'm not going to get into what is God's will because it will just go round and round in circles.

cameragirl21 replied:
But when you pull the plug you usually have to give the person some morphine or something because otherwise they'll suffocate to death or something to that effect, depending on what the machines whose plug you're pulling are doing.

Crystalina replied:
I was not actually comparing people to animals but rather the compassion we allow ourselves to have for a dying animal versus a dying human. I think those are two different things. Not to argue (because the abortion thread wore me out ) but it seems that some people have more compassion for an animal that poops in the yard.

PrairieMom replied:
I don't know if its compassion, Although, i have made the same analogy myself, lots of times.
Its a really hard thing, and everyone has their own reasons for the decisions made, but it is so frustrating to me personally, when I KNOW that I am doing the wrong thing for people, but am powerless to say or do anything about it.
I have forced more than one person to do things against their will because the family thinks it is for the best many many many times. I never realized how many people I would end up torturing in a line of work that I went into to help people.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
My best friend's brother got hit by a car and was on life support. When they pulled the plug they never injected him with anything. He wasn't conscious.

TheOaf66 replied: my aunt was on life support and she was not injected, they pulled the plug on the respirator and she just drifted away.

Crystalina replied:
At the same time though I'm sure the family is glad your there and show strength when they have none.

cameragirl21 replied:
well, if a person is not conscious then it's a lot easier but if a person is conscious and is relying on a machine to breathe for him/her and you pull the plug then s/he will suffocate to death. So that is why in these cases they give them morphine...it makes them unconscious or at least doped up enough to where they don't feel a thing.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: It's all so very gray. All of these topics are gray areas. I wish it were black and white, but there will always be an exception to the rule.

I could never knock someone else for what they choose to do with their life. We've had 3 situations in our immediate family where we chose not to continue with life support (which is different from assisted suicide.) My mother in law, father in law and my grandmother. We stood by the bedside until they took their last breath. You are filled with a tremendous amount of guilt and questions. "Is this the life they would want? What is their quality of life if we don't do this?" It's not something that is taken lightly. It still haunts my husband to.this.day that he had to make these decisions. It haunts my mother, too as she was the one who had to make the decision regarding my grandmother's care. She feels as though she killed my grandmother.

Sometimes in life you are faced with horrible situations in which you have to make rash decisions. For anyone who can say they've never been through anything like this and that God takes us in our own time, well, I come from a family of believers, my grandmother being one of the most faithful of anyone I've ever known. If she couldn't feed herself, walk, talk and was in a horrendous amount of pain that they had to keep her seduced 24/7, what is there to live for? Why keep giving her oxygen if she can't physically breathe on her own? Are we being selfish? No. If we were selfish we would have kept her here. I wasn't ready for her to die.

My husband wasn't ready for his parents to die either.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
See, but on the flipside, we probably also don't pay thousands of dollars in insurance for our animals per year, put them through cancer treatments and dialysis if they become ill, pay $20,000 for surgery if they need it, etc. Maybe some people who have a lOT of money do , but we don't since we are not rich. So, do we have less compassion the other way around then because we don't take out a second mortgage for our pets? You don't have to answer that, I'm just being silly.

There are a lot of grey areas on this subject for me. I also don't have the same definition of what euthansia is than some other people here. I think of Dr. Death as soon as the term euthansia comes to mind, and those cases I do not support one bit. In the case above that Aimee explained and a few others in this thread, I don't consider that euthanisia, even though it might fit the textbook definition.

For the record, I have been through these very things in my life with ALL my grandparents and other people in my life, but I have also seen a few family members being taken through miracles when they were "suppose" (according to doctors) to die.

PrairieMom replied:
This may be true at times, and every incident is different, but I know, that generally, when we withdraw support, morphine is given first, then I "pull the plug" then more morphine is given over time to keep the person comfortable. Even if the person is unconscious.

gr33n3y3z replied: After seeing my Mom at age 50 suffer years with breast cancer and her lungs fill up and not being able to breath no matter what we did and reaching out for help You tell me

Could I have done it No but if someone else did I have no problem and if you you left the bottle next to me I could have done it myself if I were in her shoes.

Its so horriable to watch someone you love so much drown in their own lung fluid so very sad they dont deserve that no one does

Nina J replied:
I didn't mean pulling the plug, I didn't think that was euthenasia. I meant giving some one a drug that would end their life.

I have always thought pulling the plug was something for a person who, if it happened, would die within minutes, hours or a few days.

But the context in which I was asking was giving someone a drug that would end their life, when they may perhaps have months or even years of suffering. Not in the context of medical support that is, effectively, keeping them alive.

I have seen people with dementia, people who are in a hospital but think they're somewhere else. I meet a lady once who was suffering dementia. She was in a shared room with the person I was paying a visit to, but she talked to me. So, I talked back. I insantly knew when I spoke to her that she wasn't there. She told me she was waiting for her cousin to bring her little girls becaus she was babysitting them. Obviously, she wasn;t. This women was extremly old. She didn't know where she was.

If a family member of mine requested to have assistance in dying, I wouldn't say no you can't. I wouldn't be able to help them do it.

I don't think it is something people should be denied, I think people should be allowed to chose to die with dignity. But it is not something I could assist with and I don't think I would request it.

I know we have no control over what happens to us. But I like to think I won't ever get to a stage where I am helpless. Of course, it could happen. But I prefer to think I will live to a ripe old age and die peacefully in my sleep. I might get some home help though, I think I'd deserve it

My great grandmother lived in to her 90's and never lived in a care facility. She got home nurses every day though to help her have a bath and make her dinner. One day, they sent a male nurse and she told him he had to go away because she couldn't have a man helping her wash But she did her make-up every day until she died, she had waist length hair that she did every morning. She basically lived independently but needed assistance to shower because she was unsteady on her feet and preferred the reassurance of having someone able to help her out to wash properly. I suspect she just needed someone to wash her super long hair though, lol.

PrairieMom replied: Well, I look at assisted suicide, or helping someone to die, If they are on life support, (and many are who are fully awake and able to communicate,) and I remove that support, it is assisting them to pass. So it could be considered IMO.
At any rate, I support it. I believe that people deserve the right not to suffer if they choose.

Nina J replied:
Well I will agree with you, you are more knowledgable about life support than I am I assume you would give some other drugs for comfort, like morphine? I have heard it can be terrible to have oxygen support removed if you don't have anything for it. I don't remember correctly, but I think the morphine helps your body to relax; i.e., when a patient with respitory distress is on no oxygen with low sats, they work harder to get the air in. But morphine helps to relax and reduce the use of accessory muscles and helps to reduce resp rates and everything, making thm more comfortable. Is that right?

I hate the sound someone makes when they're close to death. I've only heard it once, long time ago. But I never forget the sound he made when he was dying. He had COPD and it was exacerbated. Last time I saw him, was an hour before he passed, and even with morph he was drowning in his own secretions..the gasps for air broke my heart. To see someone who is so sick and has lost the ability to swallow and already has damaged lungs, I understand why they would want to die. But, I couldn't bring myself to assist. Not that I would have any problems with a family member carrying out the request.

PrairieMom replied:
basically. We basically say that it takes the "edge off" I don't personally give the meds, a nurse does that, but I know that they give something for pain, and something for anxiety.

but the thing about it is that they are struggling because their body needs for them to struggle. If you take that away from them and let them relax, that reduces how effective their breathing is, and can kind of speed up the process.