Do you agree? - The whole pro-life thing?

Crystalina wrote: I'm making this a poll so you can answer the poll without posting in case you just don't want to post. I just have an issue (and her being SP has nothing to do with it, it's her thought process that I'm looking at) but I just have an issue with someone thinking that anyone could be counseled after a rape/incest and then be counseled after carrying the child for nine months, feeling it move and then turning around and giving it up for adoption. Counseling is supposed to make it all better? And who would do the counseling? Someone who has never been raped by Daddy (or anyone for that matter) and someone who was never made to carry a child you didn't want and then having to make the decision as to whether you should keep the baby that started from rape or give it up and then wonder if you made the right choice?

Like I said, this has nothing to do with the fact that she is who she is. I would question this no matter who said it and the fact that it's coming from a woman's mouth just makes it that much worse.

I have no issue with adoption and I commend anyone who does it but to be made to either keep the child and live with the reminder or give it up and wonder if you should have kept the child and just lived with the reminder (to me) just isn't right.

This is the video that I'm talking about.

msoulz replied: I am not sure. It depends on the person. It may work for some but certainly not for others.

my2monkeyboys replied: I voted yes, bc I think counseling can help in a large way. I believe life starts at conception, and I believe that there is a reason for each person born - a purpose for each of us. In that frame of reference I have to say that I am against abortion all the way around, for any reason.
Now, having said that, I understand that some people do not believe the same way, and since it is not something to be proven, then I have to allow that in our country the freedom for abortion under certain circumstances should be allowed.
I would never agree with it, but I would not make it illegal in those cases, either.
I think that is what SP is also saying - she'd love to see abortion cases reduced drastically, but she's also not going to put someone in jail over it either.
As for the counseling, I have seen counseling work miracles in people's lives that I personally know, so I believe it can help in all situations.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I don not believe that it is an across the board judgement call that you or SP or anyone can make...I know a girl who was raped and is raising her child and loves that baby more than life itself she also councels rape victims so don't assume that the person these women talk to has never been on that side of the coin...could I be that strong? I don't know. I know how I feel about the value of life and I know that I believe that the life inside me right now deserves a change to grow and make his/her spot in this world. Do I believe that just because this child was concieved in love with my husband? No I don't...I believe that because I feel that this is a person that is given a chance at this life by a higher purpose than me myself wanting a baby...Insest and Rape are HORRIBLE things and my heart hurts for the women who suffer through them but I don't believe that IF a child is concieved in an attack like those that the life of the child should be automactically forefit....I think that in those cases that preventative measures should be taken when possible (rapes that are reported) and that the other choices that are made should be private ones made with all counciling possible. I also feel like there is a point at which the life of the child needs to be protected and I don't care what the issue is partial birth is never an excused procedure (flame all you want )

cameragirl21 replied: I null voted because I don't think it should up to anyone but the woman raped to decide. No counselor can take away what happened so if the rape victim wants to keep the baby or if she prefers to carry it to term and then put him/her up for adoption or if she wants to have an abortion, that should be 100% her decision and no one else's.

Danalana replied: I didn't answer because it's a hard issue when it comes to rape/incest. I'd love to be able to save the babies, but I can certainly see where it would be SO hard to envision carrying a child that was conceived under those circumstances. I am very much pro-life...totally against abortion. I know the real issue is whether or not a woman should be able to choose when it comes to matters of her body. To me, taking a life should not be a choice....especially an innocent one. And, as much as people wanna debate, I think government agrees a life is a life, no matter how young. Let me explain. A drunk driver hits and kills a woman, who is later discovered to have been pregnant. No matter how far along her pregnancy was, that driver is charged with TWO homicides. Why would that be the case if it's only a life after such and such month? AAAAH, it makes me so mad sometimes, and there's a lot more I could say. I just wish they wouldn't deem it a life when they want to, yet disregard it at other times.
And that is one of the main reasons I won't support Obama. He is in favor of partial abortion, and I can never support that. I know there are other issues to consider, but to me, that is huge.
Rape/incest is a hard area, for sure. I would hate to tell someone they HAD to keep the baby in those circumstances. It would be wonderful if someone was able to counsel them and they were able to carry the baby and still reach some sort of healing. I also know that wouldn't happen for everybody...probably not even a lot. So in that area, it's just really hard. And then you run into people claiming they were raped when they really just don't want a baby.
I hate the idea of taking away someone's right to choose, but I truly believe lives are at stake. Does that make sense? I'm not some hard-nosed person who has no heart, but when I think of the millions of babies that have been lost...
I typed a lot more, but I think it was too much.
To me, this isn't about women's rights...it's about life.

Danalana replied: I'm so sorry I didn't even answer the question at hand!
Like Abbie said, there just isn't an easy answer. Some can and do keep their babies or give them up, while others just can't do it. I certainly think it's possible that counseling would help.

Crystalina replied:
The counseling part is what gets me though. If she had her way (and anyone who thinks like her so as not to make her a target) there would be no abortion and her solution would be to counsel those who have to deal with either having the baby or getting rid of it. She uses the "I would counsel...", ok, has she been raped? Has she had to give up a child? And if not her then how many of these people who counsel these women would have ever had to live through it. What do they know other then the so many hour class they had to sit through to be able to counsel? I'm sure some have been through it but I'm also sure most have not.

Also remember this is if her and people who think like her have their way they are saying, I've never been in your shoes and I'm lucky to have planned or wanted my children and get to go home to my happy home and loving husband when I'm through hearing you but you have three choices here: 1) have the baby that was forced upon you, 2) give the baby up for adoption or 3) go to a butcher and hope it turns out ok in the end.
Either way, you were raped and not only do you have to deal with the emotions of that but now you have to deal with what's going to happen to the child that came of the rape. You shouldn't need anything but some counseling, you'll be fine.

Crystalina replied:
I'm not saying that counsel won't help some women but the way she stated it she is putting all women of rape/incest in the same pot and that's not fair. Some are stronger then others.

I also do not believe that in such cases the life of the child should be automactically forefit. This is where that thing called "choice" comes into play.Some women could handle having the baby and some could not. That should be their choice and from listening to what she said there is no choice involved.

Crystalina replied:
I agree.
This is what I envision when thinking about this issue and why it upsets me so much. An innocent life should not be taken right? Now imagine a little girl, about 10-12. Little girls are starting to menstruate earlier and earlier. If they are being sexually abused I'm sure it's happened for years by the time she hits this age. She becomes pregnant at that age. She's carrying not only her child but also her sibling. Does this little girl have no rights? Everyone assumes that the only women to get pg are older and can "deal" with it. What about all the little girls? They are just little! How can they be counseled through something like this? When you are making your decision for women to not have a choice you have to remember that your speaking for that little girl as well. As far as I know there are no different laws for them. I know that I will never have an abortion but I will not make that decision for my daughter or her daughters.

cameragirl21 replied:
There are some people out there who think that counseling will magically fix everything. Just sit with a counselor and s/he'll blink, jump three times and say, "abracadabra" and presto, everything's fine.

cameragirl21 replied:
Exactly.

redchief replied: This is a tough question and one in which many families have to struggle every day. Everyone and anyone can be counseled. The better question probably should be, "Can all women be consoled?" The answer to that depends greatly upon the support system and mental health of the person in question, not to mention the intestinal fortitude both keeping an unwanted child and giving him up for adoption requires. Others have drawn comparisons so I won't do that. People make mistakes they have to live with every day. I find it macabre and inhumane to know that pregnancy is one human error that doesn't have to have long term physical consequences because the Supreme Court decided that the states don't have a right to regulate abortion.

That being said and I see no harm in pointing out that the large majority women who do have abortions to correct aforementioned mistake, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy, suffer long-term psychological effects from that. The one exception seems to be the so-called "Morning After" pill. Ignorance is bliss, and it still annoys me. Who consoles those women who have had abortions? Should they be condemned forever? I wouldn't but many of them have a difficult time forgiving themselves for ending the life they helped begin. Can counseling help them?

I hope so. I too believe that life begins at birth, and I further believe that killing is a mortal sin we take with us to the afterlife. The Ten Commandments don't say, "Thou shalt not kill unless allowing life is inconvenient." They also don't have a Fourteenth Amendment.

cameragirl21 replied:
Just fyi, the morning after pill is just hormones. You don't need that pill, you can achieve the same effect by taking approximately 5 birth control pills the next day and then 5 more the day after, it's just a hormone surge that makes implantation nearly impossible. It'll make you sick as a dog but it works, so would you be against that also?

my2monkeyboys replied: I don't think counseling is the magic cure, but I do think it can help a great deal.
This is the kind of thing where your personal beliefs and the freedom of our country may not always be in agreement, so I think the freedom of our country must rule.
I am not sure that I agree that the constitution actually allows for abortion, but for those that decide these things that is their job.
I think counseling should always be a first-step in the process of abortion -- I don't think you should just be able to walk in and say, hey, get rid of this thing without seriously considering the different choices and consequences of any action you may take or not take.
As for partial birth abortions, there is never a reason for that, ever. That should never have been allowed to begin with - either you need/want an abortion when you first get pregnant or you don't... waiting until it's a viable life is just bizarre.

redchief replied:
So?

cameragirl21 replied:
so nothing. my question was, would you be against that too?

redchief replied: My previous answer to my quoted thread was unfair so here is the real answer. If the purpose of taking the "hormone" is to eliminate a life begun, then it is no different than any other abortion, so it makes me feel no differently. Apparently it makes it easier on the woman doing the aborting though, and I'm actually OK with that. We have enough mental illness in this country as it is.

my2monkeyboys replied: About the morning after pill, what exactly does it do? Does it prevent fertilization, implantation or both?

A&A'smommy replied: Yes I agree, no I don't believe that its going to magicaly take away their pain or suffering but I would like to see more counseling available for those woman.

I'm also a pro-life and I believe life begins at conception and that an innocent baby should not have to pay for the sins of his father.

Crystalina replied:
I'm merely speaking of rape nothing else. I don't believe abortion should be used as birth control. To me that is taking a procedure and using it in the wrong way. Keep your legs closed is what I say but what about those who were forced?

You say :for ending the life they helped begin: I don't think "rape" falls into that category unless you count the "helping" part as the woman being the needed for the baby to be made. I think I totally misunderstood you on this one.

cameragirl21 replied:
well, Idk if you can call it a bonafide abortion because the morning after pill and bc pills used as such are taken after a night of unprotected sex. Unprotected sex can lead to pregnancy but it doesn't happen 100% of the time, obviously. All these pills do is prevent an egg from being implanted, at that point it's not even a fetus, it's just a fertilized egg so no life has been begun that needs to be removed, it's just precluded from beginning, kiwm?
So you take those pills to preclude a pregnancy from taking place, at that point, even a pg test will come up negative so there is no way to know if there was a fertilized egg in the first place, so Idk if it's really any different from bc pills, kwim, as they are both preventative measures.

redchief replied:
The morning after pill does both.

Regarding the statement about rape... regardless of the cooperation or lack there-of in the act of intercourse, it takes a male and a female to create life. When I wrote that I did so with full knowledge that some of the women were not willing participants.

redchief replied:
So let me get this straight... If a group of human cells, splitting and growing, does not yet look like a fetus, you don't think that it is human? Just checking.

my2monkeyboys replied: The morning after pill is not a preventative measure as it actually kills off the fertilized egg, which is conception. I would think of the MA pill just as an easier abortion, compared to the surgical form of it.

cameragirl21 replied:
Ed, as I've said before, imo life begins at birth.
I'm guessing that you follow Catholic law that states that life begins at conception. Jewish law states that life begins once the head leaves the birth canal.
I follow science that states that a cell is not a person and a person is not a cell.
And incidentally, I don't think that group of cells you speak of is doing any splitting or growing to speak of prior to implantation, although I don't claim to be an expert on that.

Crystalina replied: I'm sorry but maybe it's my brain tonight.
I'm not saying anyone's way of thinking is wrong but a question to any of you saying you can see where counseling would help even if a bit:

If your daughter, the innocent little girl you take care of daily, if she were to be raped by a stranger and become pregnant while still a child, are you really saying that you would not think of abortion? Would counsel and adoption be okay with you?? Would you put your baby through that? I would much rather have my child go through a medical procedure, get counselling and try to help her live a normal life then to think about that baby and what having it and either keeping it or giving it up would do to my baby. Yes, I believe the baby to be 100% innocent in the entire thing but so is my daughter. I would be thinking of her first and it's hard to believe that some of you would not do the same.

cameragirl21 replied: sorry, Crystal, looks like we may have hijacked your thread.

Nina J replied: I don't really know. In rape/incest cases it would be hard. I would be more inclined to leave the decision up to the woman. But then you have to think about the child. Will it recieve counselling too? It would be hard to know that you got here because your mother was raped by her father. And I don't expect the child to be lied to about where it came from, because chances are it will find out one day and that would be a bigger shocker to be 30 and discover your dad is also your grand dad.

Idk though. I have never been in that situation. I don't even know if I am pro-choice or pro-life, I think abortion should be used in exceptional circumstances i.e rape, incest, medical (but not because the baby had downs, or something. Medical reasons like carrying the child could cause the mother to die). I think the woman should be given the choice in these situations. I am totally opposed to abortion as a form of contreception, thats what condoms, the pill, etc. are for. I don't even really know what I am in regards to it, lol....if someone could tell me if I am pro-life or pro-choice that'd be great I guess pro-choice to an extent and pro-life to an extent also, but you can't be both.

Abortions will always exist though, whether it is properly done in a hospital or clinic or badly done in a home with a wire coat hanger and hot water. I'd rather a rape or incest victim be allowed to have a properly done abortion than resort to trying to do it herself. Not saying all rape and incest victims don't want there children; just saying, there are always cases of desperation. I don't think counselling would suffice for all.

Crystalina replied:
And you have to remember that, depending on when you ovulate, the sperm can sit inside your body for what is it (24-48 hours) before actually coming in contact with the egg. If you take the pill as it says the morning after that does not really mean the egg has yet met the sperm.

my2monkeyboys replied: Honestly Crystal, if my 10-12 yr old was raped and got pregnant, I can't swear on her life that it wouldn't cross my mind. I do hope though that I'd stand on the strength of my convictions to not take an innocent life. As I said earlier, I believe that each person born has a purpose, and to end that is a sin to me.
That being said, I would not take that choice away from others. It's the run-of-the-mill, 'oops I got knocked-up' abortions that just sicken me and I think those should not be so easy to come by.

cameragirl21 replied:
so true.

redchief replied: I would hate to have to, but yes I would, for the sake of my grandchild, who had no part in any of it, and is therefore innocent of any crime whatsoever. If my child decided to kill a the life within her womb, her innocence will have been forever lost, would it not? Is there anything you could possibly say that would make it not so? Words can't take away actions. Because evil is done to a child of mine does not give me or my child the right to do evil in return. Rape or other forms of child abuse are issues that child will have to live with for the rest of her life. Killing a child that may have come from that type of abuse will not reverse any of the damage done. It will only complicate the emotions all the more.

Crystalina replied:

In my eyes the innocent life taken would be my daughters and with that being said I think it would be really hard for me to make that choice for her. I can't see how letting a child that young have a child (by rape no less) could ever benefit her. In her later teen years I would surely let her make her own choice and would stand behind her.

Anyhoo, thank you for answering the question. I know it isn't an easy question to answer and I think it's easier for me because I'm really thinking of my daughter and the choices she may or may not have in the future. I'm not saying the rest of you aren't but I started this thread with her rights in mind and so I already knew where I was going with it.

my2monkeyboys replied:
I think this is where I agree with Ed... her life would not be ended by the situation, as horrific as it would be, but allowing/taking her to end another innocent life would compound the problem and cause even more of her own innocence to be lost.

Extremely tough situation, no doubt. Again why I would never take that option away from others.
I hope I'm never in that situation, as well as all of you.

Crystalina replied:
Thank you for answering the question.

I just wanted to pose the question about "our daughters" to get people to realize that's where I was coming from. I'm not thinking about the late teen or adult who was raped although they should be thought of just as well.

To answer your question, first of all I would never ask my 10-12 year old if they wanted to keep the child. They have no concept of that at that age. They have no clue what it will do to their body.

Yes her innocence will be forever lost but what about having a reminder of that horrible event in her face everyday? Or if you give it up what of the fact that her young body will have to endure giving birth? And then she's to go about her life and try to live normally after that? Coping with rape is hard enough. She may blame herself as many young girls do. Should she have to deal with any more then she has to? Having the choice to have an abortion, having the abortion, a strong support system and yes, counseling could help her get her life as back to as normal as she can. Putting her body through birth and carrying a baby for nine months to either keep it or not seems like added punishment to an already devastating experience.

Nina J replied: It would be hard to decide whether or not your child could have an abortion. Ultimately, it is their body. Does anyone have the right to decide they should continue with a pregnancy or not?

As parents, we don't own our children. We don't own their bodies, and I don't think we can decide what is done, or isn't done, to them.

Pregnancy is an emotional experience, and I cannot imagine a young girl who has not fully matured going through that. It would affect their entire life. How could they go to school? What if they didn't want anyone to know they were raped? The only other option is people are going to assume your innocent daughter slept with someone, and what are they going to think then. If people know she was raped, then she is going to have to live with the fact everyone knows something so sensitive about her life. Or else she is going to have to live with everyone thinking she is easy or something.

If I was raped when I was 12 and got pregnant, and my parents made me have the child without any say from me, I doubt I would have the same relationship with them as I do now.

If it were my child, and she were say 15, then it would be totally up to her what she does. But if she were younger than that, I would work in collaboration with counsellors, doctors, etc. to come up with the best solution possible for my child. My children are my number one priority and I want what is best for them.

redchief replied:
On the first question. I have living proof that no matter whether or not pregnancy is the result of child sexual abuse, there will be real, lasting and incredibly sharp reminders of that abuse throughout her life. I know this to be a truth. Whether the reminder is living and breathing or the mental pictures of what occurred there is no doubt that abuse of the like you wrote will stay with her forever. On the question of whether or not the child could possibly carry a child to term I already spoke of that. If there is a real and obvious physical danger to the mother if she carries a child to term, then, and only then, should the parents consider aborting the child. Let there be no mistake, normal life for a child who has been sexually abused is a myth those of us who want normalcy make up to make us feel better. The abused never fully heal which is why rape is such a horrendous crime. These women (and in extreme cases, children) need a lifetime of support, counseling and consolation, and are often resistant for the very reason you laid out. They often can't understand why they can't forget about it and move on, not realizing that they have been changed by those events forever. What happens then, as she becomes old enough to understand, when she asks what happened to the child that resulted from the crime committed upon her? Will there not be a spark of further guilt in her mind when we tell her we just wanted her to forget about it all? Will she not wonder why it was so important to us that she experience a normal life that we terminated another? Will she not wonder at our own moral standing when we tell her how selfish we were?

Crystalina replied:
Ed, I understand the questions you are asking and to me they are just as important as the questions and points I made. I guess there is no "real" answer. It's all about your way of thinking and what you think is more important then another. I would much rather explain to my daughter why I made the decision that I made and let her know it was a decision I made for her. If there were to be blame I'd want her to know that and blame me rather then herself. I would totally take any responsibility away from her and let her know nothing, including the choice that was made, was her fault. With that I would hope that if she has a daughter she would understand why I did what I did.

I guess it's all in how we view things. It's obvious what is right for one is not right for another.

:ETA:
I had a stepfather who was "touchy feelly" in places he shouldn't have been. There was never rape but it started at the age of 7 and happened about 20x between that age and the age of 13 (when he finally left) so I have a bit of experience with the topic which is why I would never want to put my daughter through a pregnancy that was not her fault. I never had counciling but I am overly protective of my kids to the point they do not go to babysitters or even Sunday school for that matter. I trust nobody with my children other then my in-laws and my sister. So yes, my past is still affecting me but only in the way that my children are overly protected.

boyohboyohboy replied: I also am pro-life, and if my dgt were raped then yes, I would think that counceling now and maybe forever would be appropriate, as well as support groups and anything else that is available to her..also in our family we do believe that a baby is a person at conception..not birth..
and also that its not the babies fault of how it was conceived, it would be a tragedy for a child to have to give birth, but also worse for that child to grow up someday and know once they are old enough to understand exactly what abortion is..what they have done..
i dont know that a young woman could totally comprehend what an abortion is and living with that to me seems much worse then the idea of giving a child up for adoption that you could then go meet up with someday and explain what happened...

my understanding is that many women if not most women at some point in their lives have a very hard time with the decision of abortion later in life.....

A&A'smommy replied: IMO God does NOT make mistakes he wouldn't make life for it to be killed he doesn't HAVE to let a young girl, woman ect get pregnant and he would NEVER let a life be created just to be murdered I'm sorry but life begins at conception whether it looks like a bunch of cells or a funky looking alien its a HUMAN life. I SO want to quote scription right now but I wont because I might be one of the few who ever believes it.

A&A'smommy replied: I also had a friend that was rapped and kept her baby, he is her life and she is an incredible mother.

Nina J replied: If your 12 year old was raped, and you knew about it, wouldn't the first thing you do be take them to the hospital? And wouldn't the hospital probably give the child the morning after pill to prevent impregnantion, thus preventing a baby from being conceived?

If you didn;t know, and only found out when you discovered your child was pregnant, fine. But if you did know they were raped, wouldn't you do what your could to prevent them from having an egg fertilised? It's not like an abortion, it would be preventing a pregnancy from occuring. But I would do that, I'd feel selfish if I left it up to chance. I cant imagine how having the opportunity to prevent the pregnancy from occuring but passing it up. Then there wouldn't be the guilt of an abortion because there never would hve been an fertilised egg in the first place.

God forbid this happens to anyones child, though. I hope no one here has to ever think about this in reality

Plus, I dno't think anyone can say for sure what they would do in a certain situation, because we don't have the real emotions going.

If it were the real situation, dh and I probably wouldn't even be able to get my child an abortion. We'd probably be in jail because we would've tracked the rapist down and beaten them up

A&A'smommy replied: I actually am not sure I don't disagree with the morning after pill after researching it a couple of weeks ago I found out that all it does is keep the egg from being fertilized it doesn't abort if you are already pregnant and it doesn't stop an already fertilized egg from implantation, and about 60% of the time (I actually think its higher than that) it doesn't work. In fact when I was about 7months pregnant a girl came to my doctors office (who obviously LOOKED pregnant) said she had JUST found out and she was about 3week away from her due date. She had been raped and took the morning after pill and since she was already irregular she just never found out.

Nina J replied: Even if it is not 100% effective, I would try that first. It's worth a shot, it would prevent fertilisation from occuring so it woud prevent the dealing with ending a human life.

Thats sad the girl took the morning after pill and got pregnant anyway but didn't find out until so late It would be hard, thinking you hadn't gotton pregnant from rape then find out you did 3 wks before the birth. A lot of emotions to deal with in such a short time, on top of the emotions she would already have form the rape.

Crystalina replied:
I hate to take this to another level but I also do not think God makes mistakes. I stated that a few days ago in one of the gay marriages threads. But there is evil in this world. And just as much as God has a hand in baby making so does science. When a child is born from an evil act as rape I do not think God has a hand in that. That is science IMO. Just as God would make life you have to ask yourself why would God let an innocent child be raped by a monster? This could go so many ways. Why do babies get cancer? In my town a couple of years ago a 7 yr old boy was beaten to death my his mothers boyfriend. Calls were made several times over the years and nothing was ever done to protect this little boy. His head was bashed in when they found him. Yesterday his mother put a picture of him in the paper for his birthday and added a little poem she wrote and she ended it by saying "He has chosen to go home to God." No he didn't! He chose nothing. It was chosen for him. Evil sent him to God.
I do not believe that abortion should be used as birth control but when something as evil as rape is added to the mix then I think the woman should have a choice.

Like I said, this could go so much further.

jem0622 replied: My answer isn't cut and dry. I was in a position where I had to choose life over death, and I chose life (but I had not been raped). However, I do not believe in making decisions on choice for others that I do not know. I will say that if one of my daughters, or even myself, were raped under any circumstance...I would be inclined to push for abortion. JMHO.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
ITA. It's my belief that if God doesn't want a baby to be born, then he would do the aborting himself. That is just my belief. I also think that in cases such as rape, incest, etc....that counceling should take place no matter what. Regardless if the baby is kept or not, the action (being rape, etc.) still took place and you cant take that back no matter what happens with the baby. Also, for every one bad thing that happens, something good always comes out of it. A baby, IMO, is never a "mistake". God does allow bad things to happen, but something good will always come out of it, even if we don't undestand it. That is just my view.

Crystalina replied:
You make such a good point! Any of you who are saying that life starts at conception and you would not abort....would you wait to see if your child were pg first? Somehow that almost seems like child abuse.

Nina J replied:
DH has said to me before that he thinks if God doesn't like abortions, why would he give humans the mental capacity to think of it? Which of course then leads to more debating between us, lol...

Basically though, I agree with everything you have said.

Crystalina replied:
Carrying your brother or sister in your womb just doesn't feel right to me. I think the child would also grow up and feel major guilt.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
If you are talking about the morning after pill, it destroys the egg after it's already been fertilized. It does not prevent the conception from taking place. Thus, being the same thing as abortion. My OB wont prescribe these, just for that reason.

Crystalina replied:
That's what I'm saying. It's no different then abortion in a sense. Would anyone who says they are against abortion and thinks life starts when the egg is fertilized deny their child from taking that pill? And if so what is the difference then having an abortion other then it's less stressful and there is no procedure. And if you wouldn't offer her that pill d/t your beliefs is that not child abuse? I would think waiting to see if your DD passes a pg test before making a choice on what to do is not right.

A&A'smommy replied: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone Isaiah 44:24

why would he say I formed you in the womb if he didn't have a hand in making a baby

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations

mummy2girls replied: i am not sure.... my mom was raped when I was 2 and my brother was 4 and the result was my sister. she didnt have an abortion and decided to have the baby and give the baby up instead. and she gave my sister up. She said it was the hardest thing ever to go through but she was afraid if she kept her that she would be a constant reminder of what happened. and she couldnt bear that pain every day. what would i do in her place? I have no idea. no one really knows until they are put into that position

Danalana replied:
Oh, I totally understand, Crystal. It breaks my heart that there are girls that young that have to even face a decision like that. And really, most girls that young wouldn't be able to carry a child to term. It's a terrible terrible decision to have to make....can you take a life for another? It's just hard.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
That is an issue of free will. That is a whole other thread.

luvbug00 replied: I must say this is a difficult question and i honestly do not think anyone can give a real answer to this until they have been in this position.
Religon IMO is a strong thing that give people somthing to believe in but when faced with such horrors of either of thease situations I know several who have had to put their real situations against their beliefs. (i'm not talking about E&C catholics either,) Tried and true christians whom still beat themselfs up for a desision they had to make to live with themselves. Again not somthing one can fairly comment on unless they have been in the situation and I hope to God that none of us or our children have ever or will ever have to make that desision.

mammag replied: I do not have the time right now to read all the posts to know if I'm repeating anything but just thought I'd add my opinion to the matter. I am very far to the right on this issue. I strongly believe life begins at conception. I believe strongly that ending that life is murder and anything short of the life of the mother being in danger should be considered as such. I know that in a case of incest or rape it would be a very hard thing to go through. However, it is still a human life, a human baby. They should have every right to life that we have been given.

In the case of the life of the mother, it becomes a self defense issue in my mind and thus up to the mother. Myself, unless there were no way the baby would survive either, I would not have an abortion for any reason. I could not be responsible for taking an innocent babies life.

I can't say whether counseling would work for everyone but given the alternative of killing a baby....

Well, that's just my opinion on the matter.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I know it doesn't feel right. I can certainly understand that. At that point is where God would give you the strength to deal with it though, if you trust in Him and his will for you.

And no I don't think it's child abuse, whoever was asking. If it's God's will, then it's God's will. We are faced with many things that we don't like, some worse than others. We get through it. Of course, it's always easier said than done, but that is my view.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Perfect!

Crystalina replied:
Even though I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for many years I am not a Bible beater. A lot of my faith has been tarnished by our lovely Catholic priests. You know, the ones who listen to our sins at confession, help us with our problems, teach us how to be good Catholics and then when no one is looking they molest the alter boy. It was about that time that I realized that yes there is a God but at the same time there is pure evil that dresses many ways. I believe that God has a hand in so many things and at the same time evil interferes where it can. Rape. Murder. Incest. Child abuse. God is not doing these things IMO. I don't care what scripture says, I do not believe that the God that I know would have a child/woman become pregnant out of incest/ rape. That, to me, is where evil interferes and conquers. I'm sure when God spoke those words he never thought of our world the way it is today. Just as when he first created the earth he did not think that men could be so evil and hateful and go to prostitutes and have gambling on steps of the church. He decided to destroy everything and spare a few. If he didn't know then who's to say he knew what the world would be like now? Doesn't the Bible also say a father should not lay with his daughter? So if that's the case do you think that a child being born from that is acceptable in his eyes?

:ETA: Sorry if any part of this sounds snappy. It's not meant to. I'm just getting tired.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Crystal here is where the line becomes fuzzy for me...I do not know that I (ME MYSELF) could have an abortion but when you say it in terms of MY daughter....my baby girl....that is where I can not and will not say that I could ever pretend to say that I am commited enough to the pro-life movement to take that ability away...That being said I would much rather that something like the morning after pill be taken than that she also have to deal with the knowledge that she was pregnant and make the choice to end or continue that pregnancy. I guess in reality there is a what if for everything...I do not believe that the use of this reasoning equates to a hill of beans in the number of abortions that are preformed in this nation (most estimates put rape/insest at about 2-6% on the outside) and that saddens me to no end.......

Crystalina replied:
That's basically the point I'm trying to make in all this. We are all adults and can make up our own mind in a situation like this but some people's way of thinking infringes on the rights of my daughter and any daughter she may have. To me that is not fair. If you don't want to have an abortion then don't but really, who are we to say that just because we wouldn't that the next woman shouldn't have the choice to do what she wants? We don't know her circumstances yet some of us want to judge. Just because we are happy with our children or any children we have in the future does not mean every woman feels the same way. If she's just a hoochie and gets pg all the time then of course something needs to be done about that but I'm talking about the woman/child who did not ask to get pg or even want the act that caused it to happen.

I doubt this will ever be law soon, just as Obama's no concealed weapons thing will more then likely never pass but it's just the thinking process that gets me.

Danalana replied: My SIL had an abortion when she was 14. She wasn't raped, but it wasn't a good situation. She and her boyfriend (now her husband of 19 years) had broken up and he had moved a few hours south of here. He never even knew she was pregnant. She couldn't tell her parents and didn't think she would be able to raise a baby. So a friend took her to get an abortion. She said there were women coming in on their lunch breaks from work and getting it done. So here we are, 24 years later, and it still haunts her. She never really understood what she was doing. As a result of the abortion, her uterus was messed up and they can't have children. They have an adopted son, but I know it kills her that she can never have one of her own. So yeah, it's not easy, either way you go.

Nina J replied: I see God as loving, not someone who would turn you away because you decided to abort your rape baby.

It doesn't really matter if you're against abortion or for it. No one is going to force you to have one, so whats it matter if it's legal? No one can have everything their way.

edit: I'm going crazy today, lol

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I want to be very clear that when I say I am torn on the issue of abortion in the cases of rape or insest-that is the ONLY part of the issue I am unclear on! For the women who consentually have sex...unprotected or with a condom and on the pill....I do NOT feel that abortion should be allowed because she feels like she doesn't want a baby...Ok just wanted to clear that up!

As for the handgun 'thing'...I know this is a whole other topic but oh what a dangerous slope we tred when issues such as this arrise and we turn a blind eye!

my2monkeyboys replied:
I absolutely agree.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
This is not what faith is about. You get through the gates of heaven by believing Christ died for your sins, nothing more or less. It's not about "works" or being a good person (although I think it's our duty as people to be good). A person who decided to get an abortion isn't going to be cast out by God...it doesn't work that way. God still loves you no matter what sins you decide to commit. This is His unconditional love for us. He has already paid the price through sacrificing His son for our sins. Those sins have already been forgiving. I don't mean to get all "preachy" on you...it's just when I read this, I really feel the need to clarify that to people. If I went out to get an abortion today, yes I still think my place in heaven is secure. Make sense? But, it doesn't mean I am going to use that forgiveness as a reason to sin. But on the same side, we are still forgiven if someone does chose the other way.

Crystal...the priests you talk about are also human, just like us. They are no more human than ourselves. We are ALL flawed. This is why there is still sin within a church. They are ran by flawed people, because sin still exsists.

Also, God knows the past, present, AND future. He knows what is gong to happen before it happens. This is why he uses bad things to turn them into good. IMO, God doesn't always want us to understand why things happen the way they do, he wants us to trust in Him and his way for us without leaning on our own understanding. God does not produce sin, but because of the fallen (Adam and Eve) sin was created, thus bringing evil into the world. God only allows Satan to get away with as much as He allows, but this is also where prayer comes in, and that of the like. However...sometimes God allows those bad things to happen in order to bring the good out of it. Not sure if I'm making any sense.

One more thing...on the line of So if that's the case do you think that a child being born from that is acceptable in his eyes?...he may not think it was an acceptable act, but two sins don't cancel each other out.

Nina J replied:
Well, that was basically what I was saying but in more words. I said God as I see him wouldn't cast you away for aborting your baby.

Everyone has a different opinion on what faith means to them. I know what faith means to me, I only made a very brief comment which no one could use to assess what faith means to me.

In all honesty, not to be rude to you, but I personally find it offensive to have someone else tell me that my idea is not what faith is about. Especially when what I was trying to say (and it may have been interpreted in a different way than intended) is basically what you said anyway. I just didn't convey it in so many words. Or perhaps I didn't convey what I meant properly, which seems to be a problem of mine

I don't want to offend you, I am just saying, please don't tell me that my idea of faith is not what it is about, because every one interprets faith differently. Even though in this case it seems our idea of faith is quite similar, I would never tell anyone that their idea of faith is not right, because they might believe it with all there heart.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I should have used a different word, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that is what faith was, but more "that is not what God is about". Faith was just the first word that came to mind, is all. I just didn't want anyone thinking that they were doomed, just because they would decide to get an abortion. I'm sorry. Actually, as I was taking Tanner to school, I thought about this very thing and I knew someone would be quoting this and calling me out on it. Then I realized I should have used a different word.

jcc64 replied:

I was just about to post the same thing. I know faith is a tricky thing to discuss, which is why I assiduously avoid it- it's too personal. It's an individual interpretation, although I'm sure someone will find THAT opinion offensive as well, but at least it's inclusive and allows for the possibility that MY way is not the ONLY way. Faith is not an empirical entity and thus cannot be negated or proven by any one answer or set of answers.

Kaitlin'smom replied: one more thing for you all to think about....and this is rape only here.

what if the person who raped your child was not charged with the crime and not punished, and you decide to have the child and now they want visitation rights? what then? and would you now go after this person for child support?

I recently found out a friends daughter was raped 2 years ago, and thankfuly she did not end up PG because of it, and she after 2 years is still a horrible mess because of what happend to her, she has had constant counsling and even with that she became worse blames herslef started hurting hersefl and finally the mom had to send her to a relitive to live, to get away from all the reminders of what happend to her. I cant imigine what woudl have happend if she had become pg and had to keep the child or make any decision about it.

I guess my point is not everyone can handle it and weither you think life begins at conseption or birth they shoudl have the right to choose what to do in the case of incest, rape or severe medical issuse.

and to answer the question, NO I dont think counsling will work for everyone. there are way to many counsilers out there that are just in it for the $$$ and not to help, its finding the right person that might make it more bearable.

Nina J replied:
I would assume, considering we are talking about child victims of rape, that the father (if he can even be called that) wouldn't have any visitation rights. I don't see a court allowing that, if that happened I would take them to court to prevent it from occuring.

If it were a child, and the rapist was older, then wouldn't they be charged with statutory rape? Say they were 22, and the girl was 13. If they denied the rape, a DNA test would prove that they had fathered the child, so I would assume they would be charged with statutory rape. But, if it were statutory rape but the girl didn't have sexual intercourse against her will, then I don't know. I am assuming you are just refering to rape in the sense of it being against the women's will.

But, I would hope a court wouldn't allow the father visitation rights, because if he can commit such a terrible act he is not someone who should be around a child.

And no, I wouldn't go after them for child support. I wouldn't want anything from them. I don't think they should have the privilige of supporting their child, in any way, shape or form.

Nina J replied:
Lol, its okay. I use the wrong word sometimes so things aren't read or heard how I mean them to be

Boo&BugsMom replied:
If only that darn edit button would work now, but it's too late now. I'm glad you see what I mean now. I would hate anyone to think I am judging their faith.

Crystalina replied:
What I would like to know, in this case, is how was any of this done legally? If she was only 14 and didn't tell her parents then how did the dr. get permission to lay his hands on her? And with that being said, was he even certified in doing this? I can't see how any dr. doing this without consent from the parents would be doing this legally in which case it's not surprise he damaged her to ever have children of her own.

Danalana replied:
Yes, He is totally forgiving, just like with everything. My SIL knows she is forgiven...it's the forgiving of herself that's so hard.

lisar replied: Alright here is my view on this, and I will admit I didn't read all 4 pages of replies.

I am a pro-choice person for the right reasons. Here is why. If my 12year old was raped and got pg I would give her all of her options which would be abortion, or giving the child up. No 12 year old can raise a child correctly. They cant even get a job. They cant even comprehend child birth at that age, which could do more damage than good at that age.
As for the 22 year old that just didn't use a condom with her boyfriend that night and got pg, I don't think she should be allowed to have an abortion. She laid down with him, she knew what she was doing. Raise that baby well, or give it to someone who can. I don't think they should be allowed to have an abortion just because they want to. Its wrong.
And I just cant comprehend how someone can say that if their 10 year old daughter got pregnant by rape they could rule out abortion all together. And yes they can get pg at 10. Heck my best friends daughter started her period when she was 10 so it can happen. I just cant believe that someone would put a 10 year old thru a pregnancy and child birth at that age you are risking your own child's life.

A&A'smommy replied:
but as we ALL know one sin can send us to hell, whether its murder or cursing that’s why we have to remember to ask for forgiveness and also any sin that we can prevent and not do DON"T do it

luvbug00 replied:
there is a big differance between a raped 12 year old and a sexually active 22 year old.

My stance is you make it, you take care of it. I don't care if you are 12 or 89. you have sex willingly abortion should be illigal to you. it needs to be illigalized or made too expencive to be used as birth control. take it from $400 to several grand and i promise you the abortion numbers will go down .

make it free to trama victems with proof of trama. ( which would also make more rape ciminals going to jail becuase there will be more people who will report them.) There is nothing worse then to add more stress to a tramatized person.

cameragirl21 replied:
No they won't, Nadia, the number of back alley abortions will go up. My friend's grandmother was a doctor in Russia way back in the day when abortion was illegal and she said women literally got on their knees, begging her to perform abortions on them, willilng to pay anything, even if made them homeless. High cost will not prohibit abortion, it will just lead to people who can't afford it engaging in do it yourself style abortions with coat hangers and other household utensils.
The reason that people who support the right to have an abortion are termed "pro-choice" is because they believe that it's a personal choice that each woman, regardless of her age and circumstances has to make for herself, not a choice that government or anyone else should make for her.

luvbug00 replied:


I'm going to sound totally heartless here but if it isn't because of rape or insest then loose your home and endager your life. I really don't care. if one lays down KNOWING that sex can lead to pregancy then it is THEIR fault. The child resulting from the union did not choose to be created and they deserve the right to live. Wiether they are adopted or kept they deserve to live. my opinion is once a pregnacy occers then the body is no longer one persons. it belongs to the child too and they have rights even if they have to way to voice them.

cameragirl21 replied: Nadia, and I hope this doesn't sound mean because I really don't mean it to, just making a point--ok, fine, YOU don't care, so YOU don't have an abortion, end of story. Why do you feel that your opinion on the subject should go for the 150+ million women in the US?
I personally wouldn't have an abortion either but that's my choice to make for me, it's not my choice to make for you or any other woman.

Danalana replied: I totally get the right to choose issue. With most things, I am absolutely for it. But how in the world should a human life be a choice? The heart starts beating at 6 weeks. Can he/she survive outside the womb then? No. That doesn't make it less of a life. So, yes.....we should (and are!) able to make choices for ourselves and our bodies, but not when a life is at stake.
But in keeping with the topic at hand, I can understand the temptation of abortion. I can't even imagine being faced with it. I don't believe it makes someone a bad person for considering it when pregnancy occured in such an awful way...or even when it's just not a good time in life for a baby. But considering it and going through with it are different things. I pray that none of us ever have to go through that with our kids or someone we know.

5littleladies replied:
Because the baby at stake-yes it is a baby, yes it is a life. Don't try and tell me that this thing kicking me in the ribs at this exact moment isn't alive-That child has no voice and someone needs to speak for them.

luvbug00 replied:

I am not alone in feeling this way. to use abortion as a tool to erase a one night stand or becasie you were 15 and lay with your boyfriend should not mean the end of a life for another human being. it's called taking responciblity for your actions and if you don't want to then don't have sex, it's that simple. Somone needs to speak to the many lives lost every day because someone decided to take the easy way out. I DO not believe this should be legal or readily available.

cameragirl21 replied:
Because, Dana, the question is whether or not it IS a human life as long as it's in someone else's body and completely reliant on that other person's body to survive. You believe a human life begins at conception and many agree with you while many others believe it begins when a person can breathe on his/her own outside of someone else's body.
That is a question that will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction. The other side of it is abortions will continue whether they're legal or not, they've been going on since time immemorial. So by making them illegal you don't stop them from happening, you just put women's lives at risk. If anyone thinks a woman deserves to die in botched back alley abortion just because she committed the crime, sin or whatever you want to call it of having an abortion then that too is another story. I personally think that abortion is an unfortunate reality that society has to live with and the best way to keep it as minimal as possible is to prevent the need for it by making sure education and birth control are available to every woman of child bearing age.
And in this case, what I mean by education is education regarding matters of reproduction and proper use of birth control, not just education as in reading, writing and arithmetic.

cameragirl21 replied:
ok, you are not alone in this thinking but the majority in the US disagrees with you. The majority in this country is pro-choice with minimal, if any strings attached. I'm sure you wouldn't want this majority I speak of imposing their opinions on you so why do you want to impose your opinions on them?

A&A'smommy replied:
You know what if a woman chooses to go to a nasty place to have an abortion that is her mistake not mine because I wanted it to be illegal. Yes I do believe it should be illegal

mammag replied: And when the baby is born it is STILL reliant on the mother or another human being to feed it or it would not survive. So is it then okay to kill it at that point? Is it not a viable life then?

As far as the botched abortion thing. It would be a sad thing. However, they would be making that decision. Any doctor performing said abortions and killing women should then face murder charges along with possible death penalty. The almost 50 MILLION babies that have been murdered since 1973 did not get to make any decision about their life.

luvbug00 replied: Jennifer,
i do agree that education about sex and to abstain is essential to lower abortion rates.
but to provide birth control??
it's like giving a 18 year old a motocycle on a lightly rainy day and giving him the keys and telling him not to drive it....

not to mention NO form of birth control excpet abstinance is pregnancy proof. obviously you know that so why encurrage the action?

Danalana replied: Why do you think most of the US is pro-choice with no strings attatched?
And, as I said in another post, a 6 week old fetus would count as a life in cases such as homicide. They don't say "well, the fetus depended on the mother to sustain life, so..." No. It is a life in those cases but, suddenly, when it is convenient to dismiss it as such, it is just a womb-dweller. There needs to be some consistency.
Jennifer, if you were 3 months pregnant and someone beat you up, causing you to lose the baby, would you be ok with it (besides being beaten up, of course) because it wasn't "a person" yet? Should that person be charged with taking a life?

luvbug00 replied:

LOL they do! i have obama supporters on me every day. I have pro-choise on me every day, I have anti-curcumsizers on me every day.
my opinion isn't any more right then the next joe six pack (i'm sorry i had to) but we all have the right to be heard.
my opinion doesn't matter in the case of abortion,i am being heard wither it is agreed with or not , it is the unborn childs opinions and rights that are not being respected or heard.

cameragirl21 replied: Idk, Nadia, I guess this makes me a true liberal or maybe when I have a teenage daughter I'll feel differently, Idk.
But I think bc should be available to anyone who has the ability to get pg. Doesn't mean you should hand it over and say, "well, go have a good time." There should be proper education on all levels. I don't consider abstinence only education to be realistic in the world we live in.
I don't think people who want to make abortion illegal realize just how dangerous a subject this really is because it starts here and from there, where does it go? For instance, I think hunting should be illegal and I think it's murder to eat an animal and there are tens of millions of Americans out there who agree with me. So should we impose our beliefs on everyone else because we believe it's wrong for a person to use an animal's life for our benefit? I would be JUST as against that as I am against making abortion illegal. I cannot impose my morality on you or anyone else just as much as you cannot impose your morality on me or anyone else. What you think is a human life a scientist may refer to as a wad of cells, I've heard several scientists say just that. So what makes anyone's opinion right or wrong? The answer is we are free in this great country to make our own choices based on our own moral compasses, and that's the way it should be as that is a big part of what makes this country great.

cameragirl21 replied:
Of course I'd be sad, Dana, as I'd be sad to have a miscarriage under any circumstances. No, I don't think that person should be charged with murder because it's not murder. Murder is when there is intent to kill a person. This is a recent change in the law that I hope very much will be repealed.
As to why I think the majority is pro choice, because that is what polls have continuously shown for decades, that's why.

luvbug00 replied:

liberal probaly having children may chage your opinion but maybe not it may strethen it. if she get's pregant at 14 you may not want her to take on the responciblity of a child. Or you may want her to keep it. You never know.

any debate can trial into another subject...But right now my concern and my only concern is voicing my opinion about how i feel about the rights of those "wad of cells" that dubble and have a heartbeat at 6 weeks. Most abortions are not immidiate ones, usually at 4 weeks or later and as late as almost 4 months.

stella6979 replied: I would just like to say, in regards to the polls, that unless you poll every single person in this great country, there is no way of telling how accurate they are.

Danalana replied:
Ok, if not murder, how about homicide?

cameragirl21 replied:
true, it's empirical data. There is also evidence based on voting patterns which are definitely very much in the pro choice court.

Danalana replied:
I agree!

A&A'smommy replied:
I agree also!!

cameragirl21 replied:
no, I would not call it homicide unless the woman beat up was killed. The only way I would ever call something of that sort homicide is if the woman was in her 8th month or so and the fetus was purposely removed and harmed or left neglected and it could breathe and function on its own but the mother was precluded from tending to it. Other than that sort of situation, I would never see it as a homicide.

Danalana replied:
Ok, then why would you feel sad about having a miscarriage? Losing a wad of cells doesn't seem too sad.

cameragirl21 replied: I think it's natural to feel sad when a pregnancy has been ended early, no matter the circumstances and the people I know who've had abortions did and do feel sad. Doesn't mean it's murder.

mammag replied: They feel sad because it is a baby.... not a wad of cells. Heck, we lose a wad of cells every month, you don't get sad because it isn't a baby.

And what's with the "8 months or so".... or so???? Who determines when the "so" is? So at 7 months and 29 days it's a wad of cells and at 8 months it's a baby and would warrant homicide?

It should be considered homicide at any stage.

Danalana replied:
It doesn't mean it isn't.

cameragirl21 replied: I've said all I'm going to say on this topic before it gets locked and I get blamed as usual. You have your opinions and others have theirs. The difference as I see it between the anti choice and pro choice crowds is the anti-choice want to impose their views on the rest by making abortion illegal while the pro choice crowd would have to force people to have abortions to impose their views on the rest. And I think everyone knows that that will never happen.
Why not just have your views and live by them instead of expecting everyone else to live by them?

A&A'smommy replied: I guess when judgement day comes is when everyone will learn what God "really" meant by "I formed you in your mothers womb"

Danalana replied: Well, one good thing about this debate...it helped me forget about Joe "botox" Biden

A&A'smommy replied:

Danalana replied: I don't understand the argument that governement shouldn't have laws against abortion. We live by all kinds of laws the government imposes, which limits our choices. The speed limit is 55 on most regular highways...well, I think that's too slow, so maybe I drive 70. I'm probably going to be visited by my friendly local state trooper. Why don't we just rail against the system and not follow any of its rules? After all, I want to be able to choose.

A&A'smommy replied:
VERY good point!!! I agree

luvmykids replied:
I wholeheartedly agree, and I do think counseling should be a requirement before an abortion. I'm not making light of the reasons some women may be there and the fact they may not want to talk to anyone, but as someone who believes that life begins at conception my concern is not only for the womans right to choose but the baby who should have their right to life considered as well.

For those who believe life begins at conception, I am curious, does a non living being have a heartbeat? When you see a baby in an ultrasound breathing, heart beating, fingers and toes, is that not a life?

cameragirl21 replied:
You DO get to choose, Dana. People still speed, you should see how fast I go half the time. And those who can afford it get tickets and pay the price for their adventures and those who can really afford it hire lawyers to get them out of their tickets. You know how many tickets I personally have talked my way out of, either to a cop or to a judge? At least 20, probably more. And then there are the poorer people who can't afford to pay tickets or lawyers so they get the short end of the stick.
Same thing will go with abortion--those with bucks will still be able to get them safely and easily and those without will be stuck with either a back alley abortion or a pg with no medical care because they can't afford that either.
This isn't designed to stop abortions because it won't, it just puts another burden on the economically disadvantaged.
Besides, don't you republicans want govt out of as much as possible? Why would you want yet another opportunity for govt to get in your business?
And btw, that really was meant to be all I was going to say on the subject but the speeding analogy is near and dear to my heart because I am a chronic speeder.

jcc64 replied:

I don't find these kinds of analogies helpful, frankly. You are suggesting that legalized abortion is akin to devolving into an anarchic society, and since Roe v Wade was passed in 1973, I don't think we've witnessed the downfall of our democracy. Speeding is illegal, abortion is not (at least for the time being)
It's just individual women, making the painful choices that are right for their lives at a particular moment in time. If abortion is akin to murder, as many here believe, then the judgment will come between the woman and her maker, not between you and the state and her.
'Nuff said on the subject, imo. We always wind up in the same place, why do even bother with this topic??

lisar replied:


P.S. I have chosen not to get into this, I stated my view and thats it. But I would so love to get into this but I'm not. I am being a good girl.

PrairieMom replied:
well said

Crystalina replied:
Thank you Lisa.
That's what I've been saying in all this. I don't care if my grandchild or not, she's my daughter first. I am also in awe of the amount on here who would let their young child give birth in that situation d/t their beliefs. Heck, at that age their brain isn't even fully formed. Just because they can have a baby does not mean they should. To me that would be more emotional damaging then the rape itself. Izabella is 7. My niece started her period when she was 11. I could not imagine my daughter being pg 3 yrs from now. My God! She still has her baby teeth! I think sometimes you need to set aside your beliefs and be a parent. God won't condemn you for making that choice and if he has an issue with that then let him deal with me on Judgment day. He can't fault her and right now she's what matters.

lisar replied:
I knew me and you would agree on this. Not sure about everyone else though.

My2Beauties replied: OK wow it has literally taken me all day (between work and stuff) to read through this thread

Ok...so here is where I am clueless as to what I really believe. I'm a pretty liberal person and I'm a strong Democrat. However, that being said, I tend to fly to the more conservative side when it comes to abortion issues.

Ok...for the thousands upon thousands of women who get abortions on a daily basis because they laid down and decided oops I got preggers and I don't want this baby - well shame on them..I can't be any nicer about it. I think using abortion as a form of BC is seriously wrong. Your baby's heart is beating at a mere 6 weeks (which is the average time a woman even finds out she is preggo) so to me, a beating heart = a life!! A life that deserves a chance. I look in my children's eyes everyday and think to myself how on this earth could a woman give up something so precious and beautiful because of her own selfishness and stupidity. I'm sorry but I just think if you lay down and create a baby you should deal with the consequences. Yes, raising children is hard, yes it's expensive, but hey it's worth it and if you carry that child for 9 months and still feel you can't handle it then there are tons of couples and even single women or men wanting to adopt a child!!

Ok...now on to something else though...the flip side of this. If it weren't for abortion there would be far more (thousands upon thousands) of unwanted children in the United States. There would be tons of women (as Jennifer has stated) doing back alley abortions risking their lives in order to abort their child. So there is such an ugly side to not having abortion that I honestly don't know where I stand on the issue. BUT...nomatter what I do not believe in partial birth abortion, a 5 month old fetus could live outside the mother's womb with today's technology and further more, if someone kills a pregnant woman in a car accident that happens to be driving drunk, they are charged with double manslaughter, so that tells you right there, it's a living human being. Just because it needs me to live at that very moment, doesn't mean that with medical intervention and some time that it couldn't live outside my womb and that, my friends, is murder and should be illegal! Now in the case of a woman finding out giving birth could possibly kill her and say she is 5 months along, then well, that I couldn't fathom having to make that decision but I could understand.

On to rape and incest. I cannot sit here and tell each of you with 100% certainty that if I were raped and got pregnant that I'd keep the child. First of all, I'd report a rape regardless of the situation, I don't care, rape is way underreported and women need to stop the nonsense, rape should be reported. So, I would report my rape and take the morning after pill. If that didn't work and by some change I was pregnant, I don't know that I could live with the fact that I'm pregnant by the man who stole my life from me!! So in these cases, I say leave it up to the woman, counseling is not going to help everyone! Now on to what Crystalina was saying, if it were my daughter, I'm sorry there is no DOUBT in my mind that my 10-12 year old daughter who was raped and ended up pregnant would get an abortion, I'm sorry but I could not and would not allow my child to carry a child to full term at that age if she were raped and live with that. First of all, their peers....OMG the snickers, the talking, the ridicule, the strangers looking at a pregnant child..no I would not put my child through it. Secondly, labor and delivery could cause severe damage to a child of that age, I just don't see it as fair to put them through that. My claws would come out on this one if anyone ever so much as tried to talk me out of it too, my first instinct is to protect my child. No offense to anyone but I couldn't possibly FATHOM putting my child through a pregnancy at that age if they were raped. Now if my daughter lay down and had sex with her boyfriend...well guess what girlfriend...live with it, gotta go through with it, but not being raped...no way!

Also, I'm not a religious person by any means so I don't buy into the whole religious ideals about abortion, I just believe what I believe that a human is a human is a human. I question religion a lot and don't buy into a lot of what is said about religion, I think it's used in this debate too much. I also don't think people who've had abortions are necessarily evil or anything, I would say they are selfish though (depending on the circumstances), but they have to live with their decision, I don't.

Sorry if I offend anyone, these are just my personal opinions!

Crystalina replied: Adoption.
I do not knock anyone for putting their child up for adoption. It's a gift that you can never be repaid for.
Here is the issue with that. The want for the "all American looking" kid is very high. Most often those are not the kids in the system. People are leaving our country (a whole other topic ) to get "the look" they want. Meanwhile, very loving children are aging out of the system never to know the love of a family. The thing is that their skin is darker or their hair isn't right or they are handicap. These kids who are not chosen are either living in a childrens home or living with a foster family. Maybe the 5 or 10th one they've lived with in their life. Some foster families are ideal and could never be better but all too often they are in it for the check. Yes, they get money to have these children in their house. The more children the more money. Those are the ones who could care less about the kids and abuse them. So many children are abused in foster care and the sad thing is that most of them are never caught. Our foster care system is overloaded. There are even children who have gone missing in foster care. The foster parents "gave them back" yet the system has no clue where in the heck they are. Can you imagine the amount of abuse and unwanted children who will be in the system if your only two choices were birth or adoption? That's all these kids need. And that's not even counting the number of mothers who may turn to abusing their child because they can not come to terms with the way the child was conceived.

It seems we have more compassion for unwanted animals in this country then we do children sometimes.

These are just random links I found.

Link


Link

And on a side note: how in the heck do some of you justify taking birth control pills or using condemns? If it is "God's will" as you say then why not just let what happens happen? It seems like you want to pick and choose when "the right to life" is okay.

Crystalina replied:


I'm so glad to hear you say that. There are apparently only a few of us on here who think that and I swear (not to say anyone is wrong) but I thought I was in the Twilight Zone for awhile.

My2Beauties replied:
No I support you 100% on that one my dear!

lisar replied:
Me to which I stated earlier.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: What sickens me is that 90% of the women who find out they are pregnant with a down's syndrome baby end up aborting their pregnancy. 90%.

More than 90% of all abortions were done by a physician, in their office. Not in back alleys or closets with a coat hanger.

Less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape or incest.....

In addition, I found this article to be quite telling and I thought it answered many questions that have been raised on the topic of incest/rape. And as it states, pregnancy resulting from the horrible act is not the problem. The act in itself is the problem. Abortions will never fix it. Killing an innocent child doesn't take back the harm that was done. A child who is sexually abused whether by incest or rape, suffers whether or not a pregnancy results from that act. Counseling should never be discouraged in any case of sexual abuse...baby or no baby. It is my firm belief that abortion is not the answer. Clearly this world we live in has far more problems than we realize. We speak on here of rape and incest like it is a natural occurrence and should be treated as such...it should be expected to happen to any family, at any given time. Like a disease. I'm not excusing the fact that it does happen (even to the most attentive parents and best families) b/c I have many friends (on here and IRL) who were raped. One person in particular on this board had a pregnancy that resulted from rape and is raising their beautiful daughter. (this is information that has been shared publicly and not in confidence) I can't imagine feeling any less loved if I found out today that my father raped my mother. I would think of her as strong, but my life is no less valuable than anyone else's on this Earth. Just as if I were to find out my mother chose to give me up for adoption b/c at the time she didn't feel like she could give me the life I deserved.

luvmykids replied: Beautifully said, Aimee

PrairieMom replied:
All REPORTED abortions, of course, if I am going to the drug store and taking every med I can that says "don't take if PG" to try to self abort, the poll takers won't hear about that.
I wonder how often that happens.

jem0622 replied: Just two things that I wanted to address from experience, and an earlier post.

Being raped is not comparable, or in any way, agreeing to 'laying down' with someone to create a life. It's someone not listening to someone say 'no means no.'

Having had my body violated at age 3 by three teenage boys...I am very protective of girls who are violated by any means that is against their will. It has nothing to do with my God. He did not ask for me to be raped or molested.

Second, being that I am a birthmother...I was 18 at the time that my daughter was born. I was not raped. It was my choice. But I will tell you this...it's funny how many comments speak of abortion is bad and you should keep the pregnancy...but very little understanding or mention of adoption. Very few understand all of the neuances, or know the pain. IT HURTS. BAD. I cannot even explain the depression that I had, but knew in my heart that I made the best choice for my child. I was too afraid to abort, but wanted her to live. But I did not want a life with a man (rather, a child) who had no intentions of loving me and sticking by me...because he dumped me when I was 4 months pregnant.

I would not wish the pain that I have experienced these last nearly 16 years of my life on my worst enemy. I have a sister who aborted at the same time that I was pregnant. The same time. She now wishes she had had that baby. But guess what? The father never wanted to be a father, and he is now one of the most horrible fathers I have ever encountered. He sickens me. And he mentally tortures his child. So there is more to it. I watch my nephew, a great kid, a smart kid, struggling to find a grown man to show him the way. Our kids do not deserve that mental torture and heart hurt. They just don't. So as much as we say we are giving them a chance...in some cases, in a lot of cases, it doesn't have a hearts and flowers outcome at all. And no child deserves that.

I gave up my daughter because I did not want that kind of life for her. A torn apart life. But I knew very little about my choices, and what I would feel after that. And it was painful to me that no one else knew either...because our society does not support adoption.

Just sharing my experiences and how I've come to feel the way I do. No slight on anyone in any way. Thanks.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Just a few interesting facts for those who question the 'life' of a fertilized egg....and this is only in part as it is a TON of information




Notice when the heart actually begins beating! Alot sooner than 6 weeks and alot sooner than it can be seen on sono....

Danalana replied: Crystal, about birth control and comdoms, regarding the right to life. I understand your point, but those are used to prevent a life from ever beginning. It's not the same as ending one that has already begun. We don't use birth control of any kind, but I'm 34 years old now. How many kids am I going to be able to have before I'm "too old" anyway? If I had been younger when we got started, I would have eventually used it. It's not feasible that many people, today, can support 10 or more kids. And as far as hampering God's will by using birth control....I have a friend who was on the pill and her husband was using condoms, and they got pregnant with their now 4-year old daughter. The father was killed in a freak accident when the girl was 4 months old. So I'm pretty sure He can work around birth control if he wants to
But yeah, I don't think preventing conception can be compared to ending a life.

Insanemomof3 replied: I voted no. I am pro-life, but with exceptions. I have been through a LOT. Rape, incest, abuse of every sort. You name it, I have been there. I have been to counselling, and no matter how much I talk about it, it does not help.

kimberley replied: i have been raped.
i have had 2 miscarriages.
i have once considered abortion.
i am pro-life.

God does not hand us what we cannot handle. We must use our faith as a crutch to do the right thing and get through it. I believe life starts at conception. My last m/c was around 9wks and i held that baby in my hand. He had eyes, a mouth, arms, legs, organs... he was perfect. he just needed more time to grow.

things were shaky in my marriage, finances were tough, i was scared to have a fifth child. for the first time in my life, i thought.. maybe this was one time i might have to re-consider my beliefs and look at the "greater good" for the whole family. i went to my doc and asked her what an abortion entailed. i felt dirty when i left and even more convinced this was not an option for me. i prayed that night for an answer. two days later, i had an ultrasound and my perfectly developing baby had no heart beat. according to the ultrasound and my LMP, his heart stopped that morning. you may think i am nuts, but i feel as though my prayers to God that i did not have the strength to properly care for another baby were heard. be careful what you wish for.

i know several people who have had abortions. they all regret it, regardless of the circumstances. my step-mom was the product of a rape and was adopted. her and her birthmom finally re-united about 7yrs ago. they are both happy she didn't make the other choice. time does heal the scars of rape but not the scars of abortion. my step-mom was raped at 14yo and was forced by her adoptive parents to get an abortion. she is 52 and still wonders about the child that was taken from her. she never had kids because of it, nor does she speak to that family anymore.

to me, there are only two options, adoption or raise the child. i would gladly take my grandchild in if my child was too young to care for him/her. you can't change an abortion. it's final.

luvbug00 replied:


a gift?.. that depends on ones perspective of adoption. As you all well know i have long had beef with being adopted. Even still I'd support it over abortion any day.

Oh and as for the condom BC pills. I am on the ring to lower my chances of getting pregnant but i do have sex and I am fully aware taht at ANY time i could get pregnant, if it does then i will be responcible and take care of my child and my life will be all the better for it.

redchief replied: FOR THE LAST TIME, I AM PRO-LIFE!!! Do not dehumanize my position and I am not a crowd. I have my position just as everyone else has theirs. If that places me within a group in this topic, my power of choice also places me opposite many of the same members of the Pro-life "crowd" on issues like capital punishment and child welfare. My stand on abortion does not define me as a person. I just had to get that out of my system.

Having defended my place in "The Twilight Zone," I'm finished with this thread before I really get nasty.

cameragirl21 replied:
Since I'm the one who said anti-choice, I should address this even though I did wisely excuse myself from this thread yesterday.
Ed, firstly, I find the term "pro-life" rather deceptive because those of us who are pro choice are not "anti-life", we love and enjoy life just as much.
However, if you are against abortion for yourself, personally then I suppose it might be fair to call you pro-life, much as I despise the term. I refer to some as "anti-choice" becuase they are trying to take away MY choice as well, not just their own and if you want to get technical, then yes, that makes one anti-choice. I don't find it dehumanizing, not nearly as much as assuming there is an "opposite" to being "pro-life."
How is it wrong or dehumanizing to refer to a person who believes that every woman's right to choose should be made illegal as anti-choice? What else can you rightly call it?

Crystalina replied: should have made it clear that I was not targeting anyone or trying to be mean so I really don't appreciate being called out for being so. Maybe you took it personally (and other members as well). I will apologize for that but at the same time I know how I meant it and it was no where near meant to be rude or disrespectful to another member. You can follow any of my posts and I can't remember one time I was outwardly rude to someone whether I agreed or not. Why would I start now?

An apology to anyone offended!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
And that is usually way before we are even able to determine if we are pregnant or not.

redchief replied: I don't think the comment was rude. I think it was callous and disrespectful, but apology accepted. I understand and mirror the desire to protect our children from evil, but following evil with another evil, no matter how it is disguised, protects no one.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Yikes, I got to the 3rd page and i had to stop reading...

what does it matter? really? I think that unless and until you are put in that position it's all find and dandy to say what you think yuo'd do.. what you're sure you'd do... but when you're actually in that situation.. it may change, and there is NO way yuo can say it won't, unless and until you're there.

No faith, no religious belief, no arrogant country leader, NOBODY is going to tell me what's best for me. I, and I alone, will live with the psychological consequences of my actions of abortion. I would rather have an abortion, or take the morning after pill, than have a child that I will not love. Your so called God might have a plan for that unborn baby conceived from rape, from incest... but seriously.. there's more to it that that. Would god really "create" all these innocent babies.. and then wash them all away in a hurricane? mass flooding? what about murder? Surely God wouldn't allow murder. Or rape in the first place.

Fact is, we live in a crappy world. With crappy "laws". Made by man. and NO MAN will tell me that I will not go to God by having an abortion, or allowing my daughter to have one. That decision is ours to make.. and we wouldn't be able to go through with it if it weren't a choice god allows us to make.

besides, god is all forgiving.. so please. It's not like you'll be denied the place in heaven you covet so much.

I'm tired.. none of this is specified at anyone.. just think it's a meaningless debate, as it's a personal decision and one only you will have to live with.

Crystalina replied:
I'm sorry if that's how you took it but at the same time I also can't help it that you took it that way. I know how it was meant and it was neither meant to be callous nor disrespectful. I guess some people just read more into statements then others. It happens all the time on here.

Crystalina replied:
I agree with what you said and I agree, it's a meaningless debate that will never have a winner. The purpose of this thread though was that IMO I don't think that counsel is the answer for women in this circumstance. And what really gets me is the most of the people who will be counselling have not been even near in the shoes of the person they are trying to help. They have no clue what these women will go through other then what they've been taught. To me counsel is not enough.

BabyOwen427 replied: WOW! I can't believe I finally made it to the end of this thread. I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed in any way by reading this thread. I wanted to post some basic facts about conception and the morning after pill. The info on conception has already been posted earlier. However, here's what I found on the Morning After Pill. It also touches on the abortion pill (Plan B ).

Now here's where I debate with myself on anwsering the orignal poster's question. Let me forfront it with a little tiddy about me. I am an extreamly conservative, gun toting, traditional marriage, anti-abortion, pro-life, right-wing republican. So that being said I'm only going to post my opinion and not reply back. I don't want to create an argument, which noone will win.

I believe life begins at conception, the moment where egg and sperm meet. When it comes to abortion, it is murder, be it week 2 or week 22 or week 42. There is only one exception in my mind. That is when the mother is guaranteed to die if she continues her pregnancy. Then, and only then, should she get a choice. No other time should anyone be allowed to choose life or death for another life.

On the rape/incest topic. Both are deplorable acts and the perp should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. And I agree with another poster that rapes are not reported enough. Every rape needs to be reported and investigated.

I say this praying that I never find out what I'd truely do. When a girl, preteen or adult, has been raped I see it as two different victims. #1 is the girl who pg or not has to deal with the rape for the rest of her life. Counceling may not fix it, but it sure can help. #2 is the baby concieved from this event. Just because it's father is a horrible man should we punish the baby? Would you want to be punished for the sins of your parents? I doubt it. The child should be carried to term and delivered. If the mother wishes not to raise it then adoption is a viable option. (And yes, the foster system needs to be overhauled and corrected but that is a whole differet topic).

As for the back-alley abortions. Well, I'm not going there.

cameragirl21 replied: This brings up an interesting topic that everyone should think about. Some people are anti-abortion but pro choice in the sense that they personally wouldn't abort under any circumstances that they could foresee but they would not want the law to change to make Roe v Wade reversed and essentially allow everyone else to live by their own morality.
And then there are those who want abortion to be made illegal and overturn Roe v Wade.
This btw is a rhetorical question and requires no response but it's something I actually thought of yesterday and didn't want to re-enter this debate but what Beth said brings me back to it.
For those of you who want to make abortion illegal, remember, you are trying to impose your morality on the rest of us and expect us to accept your morality. Remember though, that laws don't happen in a vacuum. You assume that abortion would be made illegal and it would end there. I promise you it wouldn't. Your morality says that abortion is immoral and your morality would be forced on the nation. Next, you'll have someone claiming guns are immoral and believe me, for every person in the US who wants to make abortion illegal, there is at least one who would like every gun taken away, with the exception of policemen and the like. Ask yourselves, and again, this is rhetorical, are you willing to happily and without argument hand over your guns to live by someone else's morality?
Just keep in mind that when laws are passed to satisfy the morality of the minority, or even some but not all, the next set of moral laws will quickly come to the surface, it's only a matter of time.
I hate guns but would not want them completely banned, although I'm in favor of stricter gun laws. I don't like abortion but I believe that is not my choice to make for anyone except me. Morality is something that is personal and we all have to live with whatever we do. When you try to impose yours on someone, expect someone else's to be imposed on you and trust me, you won't like it.

luvmykids replied: There already are laws in place that offend or disregard my morality, and many more on the way. So basically I can't push mine on anyone, but they're welcome to put theirs on me? How is that any different?

cameragirl21 replied: Could you be more specific, Monica? What laws do you mean that are pushing someone's morality on you?
And you realize that no matter what happens, in a country of nearly 300 million, someone's going to be left unhappy. The reason Roe v Wade was passed was because it reflected the desire of the majority of Americans and it's been reaffirmed several times over the last 3.5 decades because it continues to be in line with the desires and morality of the majority. The same goes for gun laws...there are plenty who find guns immoral but they don't fall in line with the majority.
Remember, we are not a democracy, we are a representative republic where the laws are designed to satisfy the majority of the people. Some will love the laws, some will hate them but most of us will fall somewhere in the middle, finding some fair and others unfair.
The point I was trying to make is that when you try to impose your morality on a group whose majority doesn't agree with you, don't expect it not to boomerang. I think the beauty of the pro-choice argument is that everyone is free to make a decision based on their individual morals as opposed to one group pushing their morals on the many. It really is a very personal decision that no one should make other than the woman who is affected. And I fully agree with Jeanne's statement that if you feel it is murder, then rest assured the woman who commits this act will be punished by her maker when the time comes, why not leave that between the woman and her maker and why involve the state and the morality of others?

Crystalina replied:
I agree with that so much.

I would NOT have an abortion but who am I to say another woman shouldn't? And partial birth abortion to me is rancid and I really can't see the justice in it whatsoever. I'm not sure why it's done or allowed to be done and to be honest every time I read up on it to be more informed I get sick to my stomach and can't get very far. As far as Obama supporting it is concerned I've heard/read two different sides. One, that he supports it and two, that he only supports it in the case the mother's life is in danger. If the first is true then I do not stand behind his decision but at the same time I doubt any American can honestly say that the candidate that they support they stand behind 100% on every issue.

Dana...about the birth control,
I realize that it is to prevent conception from happening. What I meant was that there were some in this thread who made a statement about not preventing a life that God chooses to live. In my eyes taking that pill is no different. You are preventing something from potentially happening. In a sense, stopping what God may want to happen. I don't understand how some can think "a life God wants" only pertains to someone forgetting to take a pill or planning a pregnancy.
I just wanted to clarify what I meant by that.





What I've learned from this thread is that the Jewish religion does not count a live birth until after the head is born. That is very interesting if I'm remembering it correctly. I don't have the energy to go back and find it but is that right Jennifer? I was telling DH about that and I hope I got my facts right.

Crystalina replied:
I couldn't agree more.

msoulz replied:

I think that about sums it up.

cameragirl21 replied: LOL, Crystal, I like how you put that--after the head is born. Ok, I just checked with a friend to be sure and he knows all this stuff way better than I do. Ok, so it goes like this--it's not so much that life begins once the head leaves the birth canal but rather that once the head leaves the birth canal, the baby and mother are considered equal. Up until then, the mother's life takes precedence over the baby's life so if at any point in the pg, right up thru the 9th month, if it's determined that the mother's life is in danger due to the pg, Jewish law says the fetus must be aborted. Once the head leaves the birth canal, the baby is considered a human being equal to the mother and his/her life and rights cannot be discarded immediately should there be complications that endanger the mother. But until then, the mother's life and rights take precedence. I don't agree with later term abortions unless they are necessary to save the mother's life so for that reason, imo they should remain legal so that it is left to each doctor's discretion to do what is best to protect the mother's life. I would be totally against them for any other reason, though, but again, that is my personal opinion and not one that should be pushed on others.

My3LilMonkeys replied:
Yes, that is right. I remember reading it as well and I even googled it because I thought I might have misunderstood her.

cameragirl21 replied:
I think one thing to consider with regard to this is that not everyone can handle a DS baby. I remember the little girl I used to babysit, the neurologist's daughter, the one I recently mentioned who hit her head while I was babysitting...well, her mother used to wear a gold necklace with a little gold hanger as a charm, it was meant to show her pro-choice stance. She and I were talking about it one day and she said that she could never handle a DS baby, that it would be the end of her marriage and I have to say, she had a very happy marriage from what I could see, one of the few couples I've ever met who truly stayed in love over the years...they were married for over 14 years or so by the time their daugther was born and she was an only child. So for her, she would not be able to have a DS baby and in all fairness, it's not as if there is a long line of people eager to adopt them. Not saying her opinion is the right one but if that is how she feels, it's her right, imo, to take action accordingly and I would hate to see her raise a child she didn't want and that she blamed for breaking up her marriage. Again, you may not agree with her thinking but she has a right to her opinion and I don't think she should be forced to deal with what she is convinced she can't handle, nor do I think anyone should judge her for it, we all are what we are and we can live with what we can live with, that's all there is to it.

cameragirl21 replied:
See, I knew I was misunderstood on this board!

luvbug00 replied:

I never understood that mentality ... my retorical question is...
what is there to handle??
they are a chromosome short. they look a little differant and may have some mental development which leaves them a coupple years behind or even with a young child mentality forever but most can communicate, even at their most severe better then some severely autistic children. Some are learning disabled yet so are some "normal" kids. Some have behavior issues and so do "normal" kids. If you are not having a child because they look or act differantly or take a little more work then that is just sad IMO.

A&A'smommy replied:
OMG I agree it a pretty ridiculous mentalitly

cameragirl21 replied:
It may be ridiculous to the two of you but it's certainly not ridiculous to that girl's mother and once again, the majority of Americans would more than likely agree with her. This is precisely why there should not be laws passed that impose on other people. If you think it's ridiculous then you act accordingly and if she doesn't, then she'll act accordingly. That way it's fair to everyone.

luvbug00 replied:

what about undetectible disablities that will form later? mental illnesses like bipolar disorder or depression it's the same thing. They are very hard to deal with and many people and uneducated and therefor unequipt to handle such issues yet they don't abort their children. ( for those you don't need an amino as they are majoritively heriditary) it's times like this when i think The amnio and ultrasound are such a blessing and a curse.

I'm not sure where you are getting that anyone is pushing anything onto anyone. I have no right to tell you what to think or why to think it. I have a right to voice how i feel and you do too. This is how i feel I have no desire to chage a mind but am curious of the reasoning.

cameragirl21 replied: Nadia, no one can predict everything and of course it's not to say that if that woman wanted another baby that the baby would be perfect if the doctor did not detect something wrong with him/her in utero. But if you can detect something and the parents feel they can't deal with it, I don't think anyone should judge them for any decision they make in that regard. And mental illness is not the same thing, bipolar disorder, while not exactly great news is treatable with medication and therapy. I know some bp people and while they have their moments, they are all living productive lives and do not require anything special other than depakote or something like it.
When I say it's wrong to push one's views onto others, I mean that it doesn't seem right to try to pass laws or overturn existing USSC decisions just because a comparatively small number of people feel this way. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and to express it as am I, as is anyone in this great, free country but the point I'm referring to is some people's desire to overturn Roe v Wade, which not only reflects what most of the country's citizens feel but also enables every woman to make a decision based on her own morals, not those of others.
Btw, last time I checked, which was last night, Obama had nearly twice as many electoral votes as McCain and to be fair, Obama is not even your typical democrat politician, many of us on the left don't care for him. BUT, I know of many republicans who are voting for him solely due to Palin's anti-abortion stance...what does that tell you about the pulse of the nation?
Btw, just to add, I deplore the electoral college and don't think it's fair so don't take my above statement as an endorsement of it, thanks.

luvmykids replied:
I'm not going into specifics, because I have zero desire to debate why I should or shouldn't feel a certain way. But your statement that someone will always be left unhappy is exactly my point, who is someone else to tell me that their happiness matters more than mine? I realize there are two sides to that coin, which again, is basically my point.....the argument goes both ways, so when we're talking about pushing morality on people, remember that as much as someone doesn't want my moral beliefs pushed on them, I don't want theirs pushed on me either.

And I don't think our laws necessarily satisfy the majority, for example, gay marriage....you're saying we try to satisfy the majority but less than one quarter of our population considers this an issue. I'm not at all interested in debating that issue, just using it as an example.

I don't really understand the argument that you can't legislate morality....aren't many of our laws that nobody wants changed doing just that? Aren't crimes like theft, rape, child abuse just as much a "moral" crime as they are physical? I don't see where abortion should not be legislated on the basis that morality can't be dictated but other crimes should be and are.

cameragirl21 replied: Monica, just for the record, I wasn't trying to get you to debate or questioning your right to feel a certain way, I just wasn't sure which laws you were talking about and I'm still not but if you don't want to talk about it that's certainly your prerogative.
As for gay marriage, that is a civil rights issue--gay people's civil rights are being infringed upon which is where the issue lies as far as I'm concerned...denying them the right to marry is technically illegal by US law because it is a civil rights violation.
As for legislating morality, of course crimes are illegal due to moral reasons however the problem with abortion is that there is no clear cut answer as to when life begins. No one can clearly pinpoint when that is--when a person is murdered, there is no doubt s/he was a living person prior to be killed but this is not so clear cut with someone in utero which is why this is such a sticky subject. This is why I personally believe that Roe v Wade should stand so that each of us can act in accordance with our beliefs as far as when life begins.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: God may want that life to begin... but who's to say that God didn't mean for that life to end?

Truth is, nobody knows what God wants. People may speculate, based on written Word.. but truth be told, it's all interpretation, and nobody can tell anyone else that their interpretation is wrong.

Regardless of how any of you feel about it, it is a personal choice, with the consequences left between the woman, the doctor, and their maker.

It's ridiculous to debate technicalities, because no matter what.. the people in charge will do whatever they want regardless of how Joe Shmoe feels.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: And to answer the original question, yes, I believe people can be counselled... it's a matter of who is doing the counselling, and whether the individual will feel better about the situation. It's not a perfect fit for everyone. Some of us are stronger than others, and some counsellors are better equiped to relate to their clients.

With everything being so personal to each individual, there isn't one good choice for all.

msoulz replied:
Very well said.

Danalana replied: Oh man...I purposely avoided this thread for a few days, and it's still going round and round. I'm thinking of posting a picture of a dead horse for us to beat on

A&A'smommy replied:
I have been trying to avoid it because it literally makes me feel sick!! oh well

A&A'smommy replied:
EXACTLY what about a child who is Autistic?? normally parents don't find out about that until 2 years later AND on top of that sometimes it can be a lot more diffficult to handle than a child who has ds

cameragirl21 replied: According to Roe, most laws against abortion in the US violated a constitutional right to privacy under the due process clause of the 14th ammendment. The decision overturned all state and fed laws outlawing or restricting abortion that were inconsistent with its holdings. Just a tidbit about the constitutionality of it.

luvbug00 replied:

Lars is bipolar.
He is on 4 medications and twice a week therapy and counceling.
I started a charity on just this and have spoken very closely with dr's at hopkins and several other mental illness charities and non-profits, There is NO CURE for bipolar disorder. There are 3 kinds of biplor disorder but if you knew somone like Lars you deffinately wouldn't have said that. I can say that i have seen somone go from extreme happiness to holding a knife at their neck in a matter of minutes. His life will never be like yours or mine.
Now if there was a way to detect this disorder in utero then we wouldn't have the entertainment, music, books or studys by thease famous people with bipolar disorder..Actors & Actresses

Ned Beatty
Maurice Bernard, soap opera
Jim Carey
Lisa Nicole Carson
Rosemary Clooney, singer
Lindsay Crosby
Eric Douglas
Robert Downey Jr.
Patty Duke
Carrie Fisher
Connie Francis, singer and actress
Shecky Greene, comedian
Linda Hamilton
Moss Hart, actor, director, playright
Mariette Hartley
Margot Kidder
Vivien Leigh
Kevin McDonald, comedian
Kristy McNichols
Burgess Meredith, actor, director
Spike Milligan, actor, writer
Spike Mulligan, comic actor and writer
Nicola Pagett
Ben Stiller, actor, director, writer
David Strickland
Lili Taylor
Tracy Ullman
Jean-Claude Van Damme
Robin Williams
Jonathon Winters, comedian

Artists

Alvin Alley, dancer, choreogapher
Ludwig Von Beethoven
Tim Burton, artist, director
Francis Ford Coppola, director
George Fredrick Handel, composer
Bill Lichtenstein, producer
Joshua Logan, broadway director, producer
Vincent Van Gogh, painter
Gustav Mahier, composer
Francesco Scavullo, artist, photographer
Robert Schumann, composer
Don Simpson, movie producer
Norman Wexler, screenwriter, playwright

Entrepreneurs

Ted Turner, media giant

Miscellaneous

Buzz Aldrin, astronaut
Clifford Beers, humanitarian
Garnet Coleman, legislator (Texas)
Larry Flynt, publisher and activist
Kit Gingrich, Newt's mom
Phil Graham, owner of Washington Post
Peter Gregg, team owner and manager, race car driver
Susan Panico (Susan Dime-Meenan), business executive
Sol Wachtier, former New York State Chief Judge

Musicians

Ludwig van Beethoven, composer
Rosemary Clooney, singer
DMX Earl Simmons, rapper and actor
Peter Gabriel
Jimi Hendrix
Jack Irons
Phil Spector, musician and producer
Sting, Gordon Sumner, musician, composer

Political

Robert Boorstin, special assistant to President Clinton
L. Brent Bozell, political scientist, attorney, writer
Bob Bullock, ex secretary of state, state comptroller and lieutenant governer
Winston Churchill
Kitty Dukasis, former First Lady of Massachusetts
Thomas Eagleton, lawyer, former U.S. Senator
Lynne Rivers, U.S. Congress
Theodore Roosevelt, President of the United States

Scientists

Karl Paul Link, chemist
Dimitri Mihalas

Sports

John Daly, golf
Muffin Spencer-Devlin, pro golf
Ilie Nastase, tennis
Darryl Strawberry, baseball
Dimitrius Underwood, football
Luther Wright, basketball

TV & Radio

Dick Cavett
Jane Pauley

Writers

Louis Althusser, philosopher, writer
Honors de Balzac
Art Buchwald, writer, humorist
Neal Cassady
Patricia Cornwell
Margot Early
Kaye Gibbons
Johann Goethe
Graham Greene
Abbie Hoffman, writer, political activist
Kay Redfield Jamison, writer, psychologist
Peter Nolan Lawrence
Frances Lear, writer, editor, women's rights activist
Rika Lesser, writer, translator
Kate Millet
Robert Munsch
Margo Orum
Edgar Allen Poe
Theodore Roethke
Lori Schiller, writer, educator
Frances Sherwood
Scott Simmie, writer, journalist
August Strindberg
Mark Twain
Joseph Vasquez, writer, movie director
Mark Vonnegut, doctor, writer
Sol Wachtler, writer, judge
Mary Jane Ward
Virginia Woolf

I left the authors since i know your such a big reader and may have enjoyed some of their works.

luvmykids replied:
For those who believe homosexuality is a moral issue though, it's more than a civil right. There is no way to draw a line, on that or most other issues, so as you said before, some will be happy and some won't. My point in bringing that up is that we don't necessarily make laws based on what the "majority" wants.

I've said before and I still believe that RvW will never be overturned. As much as I may personally want changes to abortion laws, and as likely as it is that it *could* technically be overturned, I honestly don't see that ever happening.

cameragirl21 replied:
I see what you're saying, Monica. I understand that for some homosexuality is immoral but again, I'd be inclined to say that if that is how you feel then simply put--don't be gay. Just like with abortion--don't like it, don't have one. Now, I believe that people are born gay and it's not a choice at all; I know others will disagree with me on that. But that is another issue.
I feel personally that overturning Roe v Wade, or even just talking about it is taking our nation backwards. We've come a long way and just one step back can lead to all sorts of things--what if someone decides women shouldn't vote after all and tries to take away women's rights to vote? I know it seems like a stretch but one baby step back (no pun intended) leads to other things, it's like that potato chip slogan--you can never stop after just one.
Here's another thing--when you speak of morality, it varies so much across the board. The folks over at PETA would probably love it if eating meat and breeding animals became illegal. Do I agree with them on some points? Absolutely. Do I think they're extreme and sometimes downright frightening? Absolutely. I'm a firm believer in every person following his/her bliss, so to speak, and allowing others to do the same. In the end, whatever we do we will have to account for once we meet our maker, if such a maker exists and if not, then I guess none of it will matter, will it?
Btw, this is not to suggest that I don't believe in God because I do or that I am agnostic because I'm not, just leaving it open for any atheists or agnostics who are members or guests on this board.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

You keep saying this but I have never seen any data to back this up.

cameragirl21 replied:
A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll in January 2003 asked about the legality of abortion by trimester, using the question, "Do you think abortion should generally be legal or generally illegal during each of the following stages of pregnancy?" This same question was also asked by Gallup in March 2000 and July 1996.

2003 Poll 2000 Poll 1996 Poll
Legal Illegal Legal Illegal Legal Illegal
First trimester 66% 29% 66% 31% 64% 30%
Second trimester 25% 68% 24% 69% 26% 65%
Third trimester 10% 84% 8% 86% 13% 82%
ETA--shoot, this won't print properly. Ok, it says that in 2003, 66% believe abortion should be legal in the first trimester, same as in 2000 and it was 64% in 1996. Judging by the latest numbers for Obama and Roe v Wade being a big issue and seeing a major shift after Palin's debate and talk of being against abortion, I'd say that today, five years after this poll was taken, the numbers in favor of legal abortion in the first trimester are likely even higher. At a minimum, the trend from 96-03 shows a clearcut majority, essentially 2/3 of all Americans are in favor of legal abortion in the first trimester, with the numbers generally rising.

stella6979 replied: I personally wouldn't rely so much on what the polls say. I've been considered an adult for the past 11 years and I've never been asked to participate in any poll. Neither have the 3 ladies I work with, nor my Mom, MIL or Sisters-In-Law. Who knows who they are polling, and like I said before, unless you poll everyone, there is now way of actually knowing what most of America thinks.

cameragirl21 replied: neither have I. But in all fairness, those numbers reflect exactly what the current electoral votes are for Obama v McCain--approximately 2/3 of the votes are currently Obama's. This wasn't the case at all prior to his bringing in a staunchly anti-abortion VP. I was asked for numbers and I provided them. You can choose not to believe them but they are a sampling of the nation and statistics, believe it or not, is considered a science, I remember having to study it when I was getting my degree in psychology. It was the only class I hated with a passion but it was important enough for me to now take these polls seriously.

stella6979 replied: Eh, I still don't buy into it, but that's just me.

cameragirl21 replied:
You can choose to believe or not believe whatever you want. Doesn't change the reality of the situation, though.
I can choose not to believe the world is round but that won't make it any less true.

Danalana replied:
Me either. I don't think they ask real people. It's like one of those "9 out of 10 dentists recommend..."
And why is Palin's anti-abortion stance the reason Obama has x number of electoral votes? There were many issues discussed.

Danalana replied:
Yeah, it's kinda like choosing not to believe a baby is a baby when it's inside the womb. Doesn't change whether or not it's true.

Nina J replied: I think it is worth keeping in mind the women who had to abort for medical reasons, i.e. they would die if they had the child. I can't imagine being in that position.

Imagine having to abort your baby because if you didn't, you would most certainly die. Then imagine, after making that choice, you saw a pro-life compaign labeling abortion as barbaric and inhumane. How gut-wrenching for them.

I think we all need to be carefull about what we say when we state our opinion on abortion. It is of course everyones right to voice what they think, but I would hate to say "Abortion is wrong" and have someone who had to abort because they would die if they didn't read it. Thats just me though.

I only say this because I know a lady who aborted her fetus aound the 7th week. She has a heart condition that requires her to have heart surgry every 10 years or so to replace valves. She fell pregnant at the time when her heart was beginning to weaken again. The doctor told her she should abort or else they didn't know how her heart would hold up. So she did, even though she would've loved a child. She is getting her heart surgery at the start of 2009. She doesn't mention it alot, but I know she gets very upset when abortion is mentioned. She feels guilty, but what else could she do? There was a very high risk she would die during pregnancy, along with her baby. The way I see it, a family could've lost their daughter. A husband, his wife. But she chose to lose her muchwanted baby. I hope she gets the family she deserves one day.

jcc64 replied: My brother is an intensive care pediatrician, and he has cared for severely ill and disabled children, many of them in the end stages of life. Before he became a dr, I think he hadn't thought much about abortion one way or the other. But having seen some of the things he's seen, he's become one of the most staunchly pro-choice people I know. The quality of some kids lives are so degraded or devoid of any meaningful experiences- kids who have been substantially deprived of oxygen at birth or with severe chromosonal abnormalities who don't know who they or anyone who loves them even are--that he believes some lives are better off not having started at all. He's seen the cost it's taken on the families who have to give up everything, jobs, normal lives for their other children, their homes, everything so that they can shepherd their severely ill child over to the "other side". Not everyone has the strength or the resources to handle this devastation. It would be nice to think that everyone could do it, but they can't and that's just a simple fact.
I know many here feel that every life is precious, no matter what, and that's a beautiful sentiment. I would remind everyone who feels this way to remember that includes the lives of those already living--unwanted special needs kids languishing in foster care, older minority children, those living in abject poverty, etc...Until we as a society have demonstrated a willingness to take care of the children that are already here, I don't think we should be mandating that every unwanted pg be carried to term unless we're prepared to support them all.

cameragirl21 replied:
What do you mean by this, Dana, who do you think they ask? That's a very offensive thing to say...not to me but to any scientist.

Crystalina replied: I say if you don't want to have an abortion don't.
If you don't want to marry someone of the same sex then don't.
Worry about your own yard instead of your neighbors.
If it doesn't hurt you then why put your nose into it.
I realize that with some things you have to put your nose in (child abuse, domestic violence...) that's just common sense but on such personal issues as abortion and gay marriage (only because it was brought up) keep to yourself. I know people like to voice their opinion to make their thoughts on the issue known but sometimes it just isn't wanted. I do not go around saying don't do this or you should do that. Do what you want as long as you don't bring it to my door. I would not push my beliefs on others and to me making some of these laws (which I doubt will ever happen) is pushing your beliefs on others.


Is it okay to push for a reverse on Rvs.W but then after that what? Should another person be able to take away your guns? Someone please explain to me the difference. My FIL had to hurry out and get his concealed weapons license because he's so scared Obama will take that freedom away from him. Obama would like to yes, but he agrees it will never happen because he'd never convince enough people. I think you should have your right to have a firearm or 20. My SIL thinks that no one should have a gun. If you don't want a darn gun then just don't get one. How hard is that really?

These questions don't have to be answered btw.

luvmykids replied:
Funny how we talk so much about the greater good, pleasing the majority, seeing the bigger picture.....until it crosses someone's line, then it's MYOB.

And fwiw, I said the exact same about RvW, that it will never be reversed, so why the panic that it will?

redchief replied:
Way off. The Dems are riding a crappy economy wave. It was perfect timing. The latest shift in party popularity has little if anything to do with the abortion issue. The GOP is in charge of a crappy economy that's falling further into the sewers so they're naturally bearing the blame for it.

cameragirl21 replied:
How do you know? I know plenty of repubs who are voting for Obama just because of Palin's abortion stance...and I notice that the more she talks about it, the more the polls go toward Obama. What amuses me is we are all surmising but some of us are certain we know, and some of the time that includes yours truly.
I doubt either candidate will be able to do much for the economy, though. But rumor has it Obama will be passing the Freedom of Choice Act.

redchief replied:
It doesn't really matter what I know. At this point I'm hunkering down for at least four years of taxpayer pocketbook bloodletting and rampant government growth. I just hope I survive it.

cameragirl21 replied:
You never know, it might be great, that's what I told myself when Dubya won. Seriously, though--would you say these last 8 years were great years? I'm not being facetious, I'm seriously curious how others from the opposite political spectrum see it. When I think of the last 8 years, I think of war in the middle east, a changed NYC landscape, a couple wars of our own, delayed reaction to Katrina and now the economy. I'm sure though that Bush supporters don't see it that way so I'm curious and I'm asking in earnest, not being smarmy at all, would you classify these last 8 years as good ones? All partisanship aside, just looking for how you see it, Ed.

Nina J replied:
Maybe Dana means that she thinks they make it up? I see those dentists ad's, lol...I think they're make believe.

They do poll on abortion opinions, though. And anyone who is asked can't be classes as not a real person. Unless you define whether or not they are real by whether or not their opinions align with yours. Every person in the world is a real person, if you kwim

It's good everyone has an opinion, but as long as people remember whats right for you isn't right for someone else. No one has the absolute correct idea; there really is no right or wrong opinion. Even though you may believe with all your heart that your opinion is the right one, that just means it is right for you. Not for the entire world.

I personally would not get an abortion. Adoption would be my first choice in such a position. But it is all fine and dandy for me, and others, to say adoption is the better option because their are heaps of people who want, but can't have, children. Well, is there? With IVF becoming so advanced, more people are chosing donated eggs and/or sperm, or surrogacy. What about those kids up for adoption? It is nice to know these babies get a chance to live, and I guess it gives you a good feeling knowing they're going to get a home. But how do you know they will? How many pro-life, pro-adoption supporters have actually adopted?

IMO, if I was having trouble concieveing, I would persoally go to all lengths possible to have my own child rather than adopt. Only when I had exhausted all possible solutions (IVF, doner eggs, doner sperm, surrogacy) would I adopt. And even then, I would be more inclined to possibly foster. Because there are so many kids in the foster system who will probably never get adopted. People want new babies, not teenagers.

If all the aborted babies were put up for adoption, would they all be adopted and be given a home?

In 2001 there were 127,000 adoptions in the US. If all of the aborted babies in 2001 were put up for adoption, there would be almost 1 million children looking for homes. Say the abortion rate was 1 million per year. Every 2 years, there would be 2 million babies in need of a home. After 3 years, there would be 3 million. Where are the 3 million families who are going to adopt these kids? Would you? It's all fine and dandy to say adoption is the solution, but do you expect others to do the adopting? Or would you yourself adopt and be part of the other solution to an unwanted pregnancy?

Nina J replied: Also, if all aborted babies were born, the population increase would be over 1 million per year. I'm not a mathamatical person lol, but if every fetus aborted was born, wouldn't the world just over populate?

jcc64 replied:

I think this is a VERY valid question. I've always had this fantasy that we should put Roe v Wade to a popular vote, with the stipulation that everyone voting to overturn it would be required to have their taxes raised to pay for the care of the millions of unwanted babies born as a result.

TheOaf66 replied:
I vowed to stay out of this political arena so I am not going to address the hot button stuff, I just wanted to point out on this though...if these "repubs" are voting for Obama, then that wouldn't make them true republicans then. It would seem them to be side jumpers that have no real loyalty. Just an observation from me...carry on the pointless debate

jcc64 replied:

Well, you should be used to the government growth part of it already, Ed.
As for the taxpayer bloodletting, I'm curious to know how you see a viable way out of this economic black hole W. has dug for us as a result of his asinine tax cuts for the people at the top while simultaneously waging a couple of astronomically expensive wars and now bailing out his Wall St buddies? How much more in debt to the Chinese do you want to get? Really, I'm not being a smart a#$, I really am curious as to how you or anyone else thinks we're going to dig our way out of this debt. I know Obama has said repeatedly that he will not raise taxes on incomes over $250,000, though apparently you don't believe that. McCain of course is sticking to the good ol' trickle down theory, b/c that's served us all so well so far, don't you think? I once heard someone say that trickle down is a euphemism for getting pissed on, and that sounds about right to me. I know this is completely OT, maybe we should take this to another thread.

Crystalina replied:

There ya go!

cameragirl21 replied:
seriously? so you think people should just blindly vote for their party? why even have candidates then? why not just have the words "republican" and "democrat" on the ballot and then once the winning party is decided, then that party can simply choose a president and vp?

Crystalina replied:
I am so going to have to remember that statement next time DH brings up the whole "if the rich people don't get rich then we'll never get anywhere" argument.

TheOaf66 replied:
there is a basic structure and philosphy for the parties. I believe in the ideals of the republican party so that is who I vote for. I don't care for the majority of the democratic "tendencies" for lack of a better word so I don't vote for them. If these repubs are going to vote for Obama then maybe they should think of switching party affiliations.

cameragirl21 replied:
so what would you do if someone like David Duke or Pat Buchanan were representing the repub party...both of whom have represented the repub party in the past. would you vote for them?
just curious.

lisar replied:
I agree with Crystal again.

boyohboyohboy replied:
I think if I am understanding crystals question the right way, she is asking why should we stick our noses in other peoples business, and make it law not to have an abortion....why make other people have or not have abortions..in my opinion HAS to be governed by the laws, because abortion is murdering a child.
having a gun does not make you a murderer and they are completly two different issues.
agian in my view.
there is a law trying to be passed in england by the chief medical advisor wants to make it legal to euthanize children until the age of 2 if they have some mental defect. or are deamed retarded..that until they have the ability to speak are not really people! yes I am sure there is not one person on this board that believes that is ok...uncomprehendable I am sure is how we would describe it..but at the same time..a child is a child is a child..its not ok to kill them at any stage or age.. no matter how they came into exhistance..AGAIN MY VIEW.

having a gun in my home doesnt cause me to hurt or murder anyone.

TheOaf66 replied:
if they were on the ticket then yes

In my eyes it would still be better then what the other side was offering

cameragirl21 replied:
wow, just...wow. nuff said.
I have to say for the record that if someone like Olympia Snowe were running I'd certainly be open to voting for her. For me it depends on the candidate. I assure you I'd never vote for a racist or a neo-nazi, that would just spell the end of the US if someone like that were elected.

Crystalina replied:
The issue Obama has is not with the gun in your house that may be used for hunting. It is the concealed gun that you are legally allowed to carry in some states if you are licensed. He thinks that only retired law enforcement and military should be allowed this. I don't agree. DH just got his license yesterday. He plans to only use it when running his dogs during the off season d/t coyotes and bear being wear he runs them but he would not be able to do that if he were not licensed as it would be considered a concealed weapon if it was during non-hunting times.

What your speaking of is not a concealed weapon. I may get mine but so far I have chosen not to because the only time IMO that I may need a weapon would be to protect my house and I'm perfectly legal to do that.

I just wanted to explain what I meant when it came to the gun thing.

lisar replied: Me and my dh have a concealed weapons permit. I have it for protection of me and my family. I wont get into details as to exactly why though. It would be to long of a post.
But I am at work 99% of the time alone. I want that protection. And if someone was trying to hurt me while I was at walmart well guess what they dont expect little ole me to be carrying. So unless they have one, I WIN. There is one rule I strongly go by, dont pull it unless you plan on using it. If I were in just a normal tiff with someone at the store I would never pull it. I wouldnt use it unless my life were at risk. Or my kids life were at risk.

TheOaf66 replied:
that's fine, you vote your way I will vote mine

and for the record I have muttered the "wow, just wow" on many occasions as well but I just say to each their own

Crystalina replied:
I can totally understand your reason for having it Lisa. I just really never go anywhere and I wouldn't feel safe having it in my purse d/t my kids ALWAYS going in there. Someone like you should have it. My sis works as an RN in Akron and it's so bad there that she is escorted to and from her car. She lives here where I do (Low Crime, USA) but I believe if it's that bad for her to be escorted to and from her car it wouldn't hurt her to have one either.


WAY off topic though.

ETA: The Deputy told me last night though that I should probably get mine since the vehicle is in DH's name and if I'm driving it will show that there may be a weapon in there before he ever talks to me and of course I'm not a man so they'll know right away that I am not DH. It would just make being pulled over less stressful for me I guess. Not that I plan on being pulled over but who ever does?

cameragirl21 replied:
not really, Troy. Openly admitting you'd happily vote for a neo nazi hatemonger really does invite people to pass judgments. There are some people out there who are saying that not everyone should be allowed to vote (I am not one of them btw) and statements like yours are just fodder for their cannon.
btw, if you really believe in "to each their own" then why the desire to have Roe v Wade overturned? Roe v Wade's raison d'etre is "to each their own".

TheOaf66 replied:
ok lets see

There is no way this Nazi whatever would be put on a presidential ticket which is just a blatant exaggeration which is nowhere near reality so there is no relevance to the real world there.

To clear up the "to each their own statement"...you have your way of thinking and I have mine which is fine. I certainly don't criticize you for having your own ideals...I don't agree with them but that is neither here nor there.

We have very different ideals and that is fine and I will leave it at that.

cameragirl21 replied: just fyi, Troy, David Duke was a Louisiana State Representative on the repub ticket (he's also a former member of the kkk) and Pat Buchanan tried to get the repub nomination for president back in the early 90s and openly campaigned for it. Not trying to argue with you because it's a pointless argument but rather just pointing out that this is nowhere near being a blatant exaggeration...it's come closer to reality than not.

TheOaf66 replied: The Oaf is done

Nina J replied:
I cannot think of a situation where racial segregation would be better than the other option. Nor do I think anyone here would see racial segregation (something David Duke supports) to be the better option.

But, as I believe you said, it would most likely never happen, so effectively no one need even worry about it. Still, even when speaking hypothetically, I can't see anyone labelling it as the better option. When you vote for a party, you vote for their ideas, as well as the ideas of their leader and party members.

But, again, it wouldn't happen. Really, there are bigger things to worry about than an unlikely 'what if?'

I honestly don't believe you would support racial segregation though. That is my assumption, anyway. I think you are a big supporter of your personal beliefs, and would never go against them, if you kwim. I just want to make it clear, even though you were said you're done, that I am not lumping you in to the category of David Duke's belief. I would feel awful if someone got the idea that I had just implied you supported racial segregation Just wanted to make it clear, in case you read this

TheOaf66 replied:
well at least someone gets it