Bratty talk back
mysweetpeasWil&Wes wrote: Okay, Wil is only a few weeks past his 4th birthday, but I have to say that 4 is the WORST so far!!! He is a brat. Yep, I admit it. Temperamental about everything. He is throwing fits lately like a toddler, shouting and kicking and crying to the point he shakes and loses his breath. And the whining!!! If he doesn't get his way, he is nasty, telling me "no, I don't wannnnnnaaaaa do that". We went for a walk today and the gate to the park was closed. He threw a fit when I said we couldn't go in. He kept yelling "but I want to go to the parrrrrrrrrrrk" (add whiney tone). It goes on to no end. I try redirecting him, saying we will go somewhere else instead, or we will go to the park when he stops screaming, but sometimes it feels like I'm rewarding the bad behavior. I obviously don't know what to say anymore. I raise my voice, it gets worse. I threaten to take things away and he starts to whine about that. I ignore the tantrum and he shouts "mommmmmy, listen to meeeeeeee". I've said this a million times before to you guys, but he seems like such a miserable kid. As if life is so terribly rough for him. Said it before, but Wesley at 2 is so much more mature than his brother. He talks back too, but I tell him no and he says "ok mommy, sorry, I stop". And it ends there. Where Wil is all about going further and further never remembering the consequences of his last punishment.
This morning Wil complained about the sounds in his head bothering him. Said they were too loud. Perhaps that's a little off topic, but I can't help feeling worried about that issue too.
I'm totally venting, but if anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears.
Maddie&EthansMom replied: I could have typed this post about Ethan. It is getting better {mostly due to Maddie being back in school.} I can totally relate to the whining. It makes DH and I want to pull our hair out. Nothing works on Ethan. The more we punish, the worse he gets. He even behaved this way at school last year. It's like one thing would set him off and it was all downhill from there...you couldn't "get him back." Usually it was as simple as making him do something he didn't want to do.
I try to reason with him, but usually it's impossible to get him to calm down {and quiet down} enough to listen to me. It's SO frustrating. I put him in time out and that doesn't work...he just gets up. I do everything short of sitting on him to get him to stay. If I send him to his room he kicks his walls, slams his door, etc......
Then, there are days when he is an absolute angel.
Rae, I don't know what to do either, but you're not alone.  Maybe someone will have some great advice for us both. 
lovemy2 replied: I have the same problem with Olivia but it tends to be "once a month"  seriously though - she can be the same way - the only thing I have ever found that works is to antcipate it coming - I know the things that set her off and I avoid them at that time of the month.....not speaking about your two boys but I think some kids just are miserable whether it be a real reason or that's just their personality for whatever reason - but Rae - if he is talking about voices being too loud in his head shouldn't you address that with your Ped - I don't necessarily mean that from a psychological standpoint but maybe there is something wrong with his ears or something - he has alot of food allergies - my GF just told me she just found out her son is allergic to seeds - she didn't know that but he almost always has a constant stuffy/runny kind of nose - not enough to slow him down or anything but its clearer to her now that that is what it is from - could there be things going on with him related to that that just make him miserable....??
I wish I had the magic answer - sometimes its a phase sometimes is something more serious - and sometimes you can't predict or even try to understand.....you also said Rae things haven't been great with DH - that he is struggling too right now - could that be making things SEEM worse than they are????
Sorry you are having such a rough patch - it stinks......
Hugs to you too Aimee - I am not much help with boys over the age of 21 months right now
jacobsmama replied: I could have also written this post about jacob!!!!
The only thing I have found that works is saying this to him.
"Mommy is not proud of you when you act that way."
"I am VERY disappointed about the way you are acting."
"It makes mommy upset when you act that way."
Jacob works well on being told he did something good, So I have tried the opposite. he responds well to it, he doesnt like me to be disappointed 
So the bad behavoir has slowed down. Jacob is 4.5
Hang in there
mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
Its funny you mention his allergies, because my MIL had a long talk with me about how she thinks his behavior is related to allergies and how she thinks he is deficient in good fats in his diet, and that also effects his mood. There is a part of this I do believe, but I also believe in what you said about it being part of a persons personality. My MIL of course took it way too far in which I won't go into detail here, whole other topic. But I do get what you're saying. As far as his ears go, I haven't had them checked in awhile. I know they look in them every year, but he hasn't had a hearing test since he was about 2.5 when we had a speech evaluation. Wil never really has a runny nose, so fortunately the allergies don't bother him on a day to day basis, but that's definitely something to consider. His little body just seems so worked up at times. My mom says that he is super impulsive, often doing things before he even really thinks about it. She also said that I was a lot this way, not so much on the impulsiveness, but about having a short fuse (blowing up in seconds, not letting it rest). I asked her how she handled it and her answer was "I just told people you were tired and took you home".  Anyhow, with all the transitions we've experience - new home, new city, new school, new friends, DH not home a lot and when he is, he isn't happy...so this could very well be part of it. I just wish I knew how to react better. You are so right about anticipating the bad behavior and avoiding what sets her off. I've learned a little of this with Wil, but when I feel I've got my finger on it, he changes! 
Aimee, sorry about Ethan. Its so difficult to know what to say or what to do when they don't respect your authority. Wil does stay in time out, I'm lucky with that. But he goes right back to doing something bad a minute after he gets out. And Wil too can be such an angel at times - but its mostly the times the spotlight is on him and he is focused on an activity. I just wish I could give him that all the time (one on one time, doing an activity HE loves).
Kristi, I'm sorry you are having a hard time too.
luvmykids replied: Kylie is by far our worst whiner, I'm sorry to everyone who has a whiny kid
I don't mess around with whining, I don't mean to sound inconsiderate of other things that may contribute to the problem, I just don't have experience with them so all I can tell you is what I do. I normally don't bother with trying to talk her (or any of the kids) out of it, or redirect, etc. I treat it like anything else...hitting, back talk, not listening. They get a warning, then they go to their rooms. I start by telling them I will ignore until they can talk to me the right way and listen to me. If they keep it up, end of discussion. They can whine, scream, cry all they want there and when they're done, they can come out and we go on with things.
It's gotten a little easier with Kylie, now at age six once the fit is over I can talk to her about it. We talk about why whining doesn't get her what she wants and in fact only gets her in trouble, and talk about other ways to communicate when she's upset, and the big conversation we've been having is just choosing to NOT get upset over some things. I know that doesn't really work at four though, it sure didn't with Kylie and it doesn't with Macie.
I don't really have any advice, but we've been there and its definitely miserable for everyone
moped replied: I do not have a suggestion because Jack is a tough 4 year old as well....I couldn't believe how quickly he went for an angel child to my crazy back talkin', whiny 4 year old. I ignore the whining and often toys hit the garbage etc etc.....I tell him to whine upstairs and come back when he is done............
I am sorry Rae, but 4 is soooooo NASTY
mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
I like this, but I want to make sure I'm getting it straight. So you actually tell her "I will ignore you until you can talk to me the right way"? Or do you actually just ignore her hoping she will understand you are serious. Because I tried this today, the completely ignoring Wil when he was whining for me to get him milk. I just didn't answer. He kept doing it, so I kept ignoring him. He just shouted louder, with the whine. So then I calmly looked at him and said "Until you can ask me politely, I will not get you milk". He just got more mad. Am I trying too hard to reason with him??? Is this my mistake? I'm so lost! I am also trying the first and second warning thing. Only two, not three. Again, he forgets about the first warning and then throws a fit screaming "but I'll behave, I'll behave!!". Gets sent to his room. Minutes later, back at it.
Thanks for the suggestions!
moped replied: I only give one warning and thats it - go elsewhere to whine.........or if I am playing with him like tonight for example....
We were outside playing soccer and Jack is always getting little cuts or scraps on him from being clumsy, so he has a TIMY WEENY LITTLE dot on his finger and couldn't stop the ball and WHINE WHINE WHINE, I gave him one look and said it that keep sup I will not play soccer with you, he didn't stop and I went in the house and made dinner, he got upset outside for a while and then calmed down and came in for dinner.......I have no patience for the whining........BLAH.
mckayleesmom replied:
That is what I do...I tell them to come talk to me again when they can talk normally. If they persist...I am the queen of ignoring.
Our Lil' Family replied: I'm the same as Monica and Jen it's just not tolerated, I can't stand whining and so I nip it in the bud, or try to. I tell him that he is a big boy and that whiny voice is not a big boy voice and I won't listen to him until he finds his big boy voice. If he continues to whine I send him to his room until he can speak correctly. Sometimes it works, sometimes he pitches a fit but he does it in his room where I can disconnect myself. Seriously, whining sets me off badly so I have to send him elsewhere when he does it.
From the question you asked Monica: yeah, I think you could say, I'm not listening to you until you can ask correctly. I don't think you are expecting too much, that is easy reasoning, Wil can easily figure that one out. Just keep at it, he'll know you mean business after a couple of days of not getting what he's whining for.
Boo&BugsMom replied:
Us too. Just not tolerated. Tanner had this turn in behavior around the 3-4 year old mark as well.
The only thing I have to add is about the noises in his ears. Troy suffers from tinitus (sp?). It is a constant ringing in his ears. Perhaps you could get him checked out for that. I would assume if someone is suffering from it, it could be pretty miserable to deal with esp. as a child. I would ask about it.
PrairieMom replied: ITA that 4 is hard. Ben survived completely on luck alone.  ohhh that boy pushes me...
I found that I was getting trapped in a argument spiral. He would argue, then I would reply, then he would escalate, then I would escalate...until we are going around and around... then it occurred to me, I am the mom, and he is the child. that's it.
I was praying one day after walking him to school that God would give me what that boy needs from me, and that very day I got a magazine in the mail from MOPS (mothers of preschoolers) and there was an article in there that was talking about arguing with your child, and what to do about it. It really helped me. It had a script to follow that helped me get out of the spiral. This is basically what it said:
Child:I don't like Peas
Mom:I know you don't like peas, but I would like you to eat some anyway
Child: but I don't like peas
Mom:I know you don't like to eat them, but we all some times have to eat things that aren't our favorite foods
Child:Well, I'm not eating them
Mom: I heard you, but we are not going to argue about it, the next time you argue about it, you will get a time out
Child :I'm not eating them anyway
then the child gets a time out.
I used this method consistently for 2 days and saw improvement. plus, I felt better because things weren't escalating to the point where i was yelling. I had control over the argument, because I knew from the beginning exactly where it was going.
I am really consistent with our time outs too, they are harsh. He gets one minute for each year, plus one more minute because I KNOW he knows better. And he spends them standing in the corner with his forehead against the wall and his hands behind his back. I had to throw in the last 2 modifications becuase he was spending his time out time fiddling with things, and licking the wall and just being goofy and naughty. it totally works tho. He also knows that there is no where we will ever be that there isn't a corner, and i don't hesitate to put him in time out in public places.
At least when he needs therapy when he is an adult I will know why.
lisar replied: I have the same problem with Raygen. It NEVER STOPS. I have tried everything and nothing seems to work. I am reading the advice on here hoping I will see something I havent tried yet.
luvmykids replied: Rae, maybe when things are mellow you can talk to him about what whining is...Kylie didn't really start to improve until she grasped exactly what I meant by "no whining" so I told her "When you say mommmmmeeee, I haaaaate brushing my haaaaaaaaair (in my best imitation) that is whining. See how different it sounds when I say it like this?" type of conversation. Then I'd say "Ok, now you practice. Say it regular then say it whiny. See how yucky that sounds?"
And yes, I would tell her "I do not listen to whining. When you can use your regular voice I'll listen. Do not talk to me if you're whining."
I used to feel bad , a lot like you mentioned when you said he just seems like life is soooo awful, etc but realized even if she did feel that way, she had to learn to deal with it and her emotions. I had to make it very clear that whining would NEVER get her what she wanted and that she had to choose between talking properly or going to her room. I tried to make clear that she could let me know how she felt about something, but not in that manner and that her telling me she didn't like or want to do something was ok but didn't change that she was still going to have to do it.
I did have to get VERY tough, our rock bottom came at the mall one day when we'd driven 40 minutes to get there and had only been there for maybe 20 minutes. She started whining and I didn't say a word, just told them all "Come on"...they asked where we were going and I didn't answer, we just got to the car and left. It was awful for Colt and Macie, who were behaving perfectly, but it had gotten so bad with Kylie that there was just no option other than to make it perfectly clear.
I think we all want to reason with our kids because we want them to understand we're not trying to be mean or unfair but my theory is that as long as they have us sucked into the whiny conversation, they think there is still hope of them getting their way. It's kind of like not negotiating with terrorists
Anyway, sorry that got so long, hope something helps. It's an AWFUL phase
Boo&BugsMom replied:
I did this with Tanner too. It's like he didn't understand what he sounded like until I showed him myself. His response was "Oh", as he kind of gave me a look like a lightbulb had gone on.
mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied: Ok, I will try explaining to him what whining really is. Will get back to you all and see if it helps. Thanks!!!!!!
By the way, he started in again this morning as we were getting ready for school. Whining about what to eat for breakfast, that he didn't want oatmeal. Grunting, rolling his eyes and sighing like a teenager! I have realized that the more calm I remain, the less worked up he gets. He listens a bit better. So I have to work on that. And like Tara said, the more I can predict how the scenario is going to play out, the better prepared I can be on handling it. I knew it was coming this morning, so I think I actually handled it pretty well. Now I have to teach DH! Man this is tough work!!
Boo&BugsMom replied: Rae, you can also try giving him choices where it's realistic. Like for breakfast..."Do you want oatmeal or toast?". "Do you want to wear the red shirt or the blue shirt?". Kids usually feel like they still have some control when they are given choices. The choices are usually one that we as parents are ok giving because either one they choose, we are ok with. If it's put this way "You are having oatmeal for breakfast", they feel they have no control which causes them to lash out. Where if you give them a minor choice, they still feel like they have some control of their environment. To us it's a minor choice, but to them it may be huge. 
Maddie&EthansMom replied: Yes! The hardest part about all of this is being consistent in not losing my temper. The whining day in and day out...It just gets SO OLD! And when I don't play into it, he just finds other ways to get to me. I certainly don't "tolerate" whining in this house, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't do it. I just need to find more creative ways to deal with it and teach him. What I'm doing is obviously not working. There's more of an issue with him being defiant and not obeying when I tell him to do something or not to do something. He seems to think he's being cute.
luvmykids replied:
I know what you mean, I think ALL kids do it at some point, at least to some degree. It's a matter of finding what works with that child. Colt and Macie were just a lot easier to correct in that area.
Kylie doesn't seem to have much of a conscience, I'm hoping that will improve because so far it seems like she obeys more out of not wanting to get in trouble than truly wanting to "do the right thing" 
AlexsPajamaMama replied: I am in the same boat with a whining 4 year old. No matter what he doesnt seem happy, if you give him 5 minutes to play outside or an hour he still cries about coming inside. I tell him to take it to the cornor and come out when he can talk like a big boy. If we are playing and he whines about what we are doing or not doing I tell him its not fun playing with a little boy who whines.
No advice, just hugs. It wont last forever.
mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:
That is EXACTLY how Wil is!! Like he doesn't really care that he gets in trouble. He says "mom I'll behave" but in that sly, I am only trying to get what I want way. He whines and complains about being sent to his room, but it never "sticks" that mom will send him there again if he continues to misbehave. I try and explain to him why he is repeatedly going to his room and each time he looks at me like it's all brand new info. I'm so worried that he will be the teenager getting in trouble without a care in the world, no conscience. 
luvmykids replied:
Maybe when he hits five he'll care about getting in trouble  that was around the time that even if she didn't care WHY she was in trouble, she'd make the effort to avoid it. I'm sorry, I know it's so rough
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