Bible Poll

cameragirl21 wrote: just curious what people's thoughts are, I have always believed the Torah (Hebrew bible that Christians refer to as the OT) was mostly allegorical but that is jmo and not a belief shared by most Jews, at least not officially anyway. Just curious how others see it.

PrairieMom replied: touch!

grandma replied:
YOU are too funny...Tinkerbell!

holley79 replied:
Leave it to Tara.

PrairieMom replied:
yeah... I crack myself up.

moped replied: I need to grab my dictionary for this one

cameragirl21 replied:
I don't get it....

grandma replied: I think with the 'green' thread and all the disagreeing, people don't want to 'touch' a 'Bible Poll' right now.

cameragirl21 replied:
oh, I see. But I'm not asking about religion per se, I'm just asking if people take it literally or allegorically, it's more of a philosophical question than a religious one.

grandma replied: I don't think punkeemunkee'smom was asking if people flush after every pee either, but that's where it went. kwim?

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Yeah I was.... No I am so kidding-but it went there and so many more places.....

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I do believe that people,pastors,clerics and theologins have put their own spin on it and continue to do so.......

Boo&BugsMom replied: Tell me what allegorical means and then I'll tell you my opinion.


If it means using figures of speech, then yes I think the Bible does use figures of speech and metaphors, etc. I guess for me, it really depends on where in the Bible you are talking about. Some things are meant to be taken literally, other parts use figures of speech to explain. It's also just as important to study the history of that time in order to know what the passages are actually talking about. Anyone can "quote" the Bible, but just because they read it doesn't mean they understand. Same goes for the passages around it. If you don't "study" it, it could end up meaning a half dozen things. The same also goes for knowing the imporatance difference and meaning behind the old and new testaments. When Jesus came, it changed lot, obviously.

In all, it's kind of hard to explain because there are so many interpretations of the entire Bible. Also, some denominations use others doctrine outside of what the Bible represents...so it's kind of different for everyone.

A&A'smommy replied:
You took the words right out of my mouth

Crystalina replied: I look at it this way: Abide by the Ten Commandments that are clearly written for all to understand. The rest you take as you think it reads. I really don't think there is anyone walking this earth (or ever walked the earth) who can give us the correct answers to what lies between the front and back cover of that book.

cameragirl21 replied: allegorical means having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text.

redchief replied: I null voted because I don't think such a question can be answered so simply as any of the choices given here. While allegory is an obvious teaching technique employed by many of the early writers, and the dreams of St. John are admittedly so, without some truth to the stories that are told, the allegory would be lost.

Has someone learned a new word?

cameragirl21 replied:
that is precisely why i voted that it's MOSTLY allegorical with some literal elements because if it were all allegory then we'd never know what the lesson from the stories should be. i do believe it's mostly allegorical though, but that is jmo and should not be taken as anything more than that.
eta--since for some reason i can't edit my other post i should add that to make it simple, a more a propos definition of allegorical is using symbolic representations to make a point rather than for it to be taken literally. for instance, consider the parting of the red sea--if you take this bible story literally then you believe every word as historical fact but if you believe it's an allegory then you don't necessarily believe the sea actually parted but rather that it is symbolic to mean that Moses got his people to safety against all odds. idk if that made sense but that was my best attempt at explaining allegory in the context of the bible.

Cece00 replied: Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.

redchief replied:
And exactly why I null voted.
While symbolism is apparent throughout the texts, so too I believe that many of the stories are true as truth was known by the authors in their times. Additionally, the different authors' styles of writing and prose may add or subtract from the historical or symbolic meanings, depending upon the readers' point of view. So, as I said, the answer is simply too complex to put in a one line poll answer. At least that's how I see it. But to see the bible as a mostly symbolic or mostly literal would surely place one on shaky moral ground in either case. It's also necessary to look at the bible with a modern eye full in the knowledge of the ancientness of the texts, and to allow that most of the Old Testament was written long after the stories were first told. Even the New Testaments were put to paper in the forms we see them (yes, I know that paper in the sense that we know it didn't exist then either) long after the original authors wrote/told the story. Finally, one must take into account that the bible has, in its entirety, been translated from ancient languages which also were evolving even as they were written.

ETA: Jennifer - You can only edit posts up until the time that post has been replied to. This is to eliminate the possibility of someone being called out in a reply for attacking someone after something was written and removed.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well I am not discussing religion. You know it will be a 10 page post of me repeating myself over and over to be told what I believe in my heart as a christian is completely wrong anyway!

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Couldn't have said it better myself!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

redchief replied:
I already said politics suck tonight, so I have no problem saying that intolerance of others' beliefs sucks too.

Danalana replied: I didn't officially vote yet, but this is what I believe. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and Jesus definitely taught in parables. So, I guess I should vote mostly literal and a little allegorical? Hehe, never thought of it in these terms!

Bamamom replied:


Hey Jennifer you get that this is a parenting board right? Cause all of your posts (including the one you made in the "green" thread) seem to turn to religion/philosophy.

TheOaf66 replied:
that is why I stayed out of it, to many different ends of the spectrum on this board and it would not end well

luvmykids replied:
I'm in this groubp too

cameragirl21 replied: I'm kind of surprised...this is not a religious discussion at all, one can be any religion or no religion to have an opinion here, as long as one has some basic knowledge of scripture, this question is purely philosophical. It doesn't matter what religion you subscribe to or what your beliefs are, or if you have any beliefs or religion whatsoever.
Dana, to answer your question--this question has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the bible is the inspired word of God or not, it's purely a question of if you take scripture literally or allegorically. By definition, if something is allegorical, it cannot be literal so you either take scripture at face value, the same way you would a historical document OR you believe the words themselves are not as important as the symbolism and meaning behind them. If you believe scripture is a series of factual events, much like a history book, you're more inclined to see it as literal whereas if you think there is hidden meaning and that the events are not necessarily described as facts but rather as stories to provide a hidden lesson that is not always apparent on the surface, you're more inclined to see it as allegorical.
I put the "I don't know" option for those who honestly don't have any idea and the "I don't believe in the bible" option for those who are atheists or have no interest in scripture so as to respect everyone's opinion and provide everyone an option to vote.
Like I said in a previous post, it's all about respect for others' opinions and ideas. If you don't like a topic, poll, question, etc, move on to the next one. That's the beauty of a free society.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Actually, for people who believe that the Bible IS the inspired Word of God, it has a lot to do with how you view it and how you'd answer the question.

cameragirl21 replied:
I admit I have no idea how this makes a difference.
Btw, I should add that there is no right or wrong answer here, perhaps I didn't make that clear. It's a question of how you see it. I think it's an interesting question that gives people food for thought and perhaps a better understanding of what scripture means to them and how they interpret it.

moped replied: I still need my dictionary here.....

This is a very dangerous post Jennifer......you know it!

I can't evfen comment on the bible itself, although I am christian I have nto read it much and see this as a religious post NOT philosophical (i can't even spell) at all.

cameragirl21 replied:
how is it dangerous, seriously, i don't get it. there is no religion mentioned here, every religion has their own bible or scripture. it is not a question of what each religion believes or what is right or wrong but rather how you personally interpret it.
to me it's no different than asking how you interpret various works of Shakespeare.
It all comes down to how you see it, nothing more than that.
I came up with the idea to ask the question based on something said in the thread about hurricanes, earthquakes and other natural disasters on the rise lately, specifically when Babylon was mentioned because again, if it's literal then babylon is already destroyed but if it's allegorical, we are the present day babylon...how you interpret it makes a big difference on what (and when) you expect the outcome to be.

moped replied:
Then perhap syou should have made this poll about shakespere then.....just a thought

jcc64 replied:

C'mon, guys, enough already. I don't think there was anything disrespectful about the way the thread was started, and of course, you always have the option of refraining from the thread alltogether. Or would that require too much self-control?
Btw, the Christian perspective isn't the only one that gets routinely disrespected around here.
Let's stop it already.

Crystalina replied:
I swear. Sometimes this board reminds me of a pack of rabid hyhenas. Do we always have to jump down someone's throat? My kids don't argue or torment each other this much. Grow up. As someone mentioned, this is a Parenting Board how about we act like adults? If you don't like a post don't answer it. Snide remarks are uncalled for.





Dang it. We all are in time-out now!!!!

Shut down your computers!

cameragirl21 replied:
lol, Jen, seems many here have read the bible but I've yet to hear anyone mention reading any Shakespeare. If you think you need a dictionary for this topic, imagine the reading material one may need to answer questions about Shakespeare.
Btw, I get the impression that if someone sneezed and I responded with, "God bless you" some here would insist I was starting a provocative religious discussion. If you're looking for trouble, I guarantee you'll find it.

TheOaf66 replied:
it reminds me of Anchorman when Steve Carell is just arguing

"...loud noises, I don't know what we're talking about...aaahhhh"

holley79 replied:

Danalana replied:
I don't understaand why it's dangerous, either, but I know it is. We shouldn't have to put warnings before discussions of God/religion. It's an important part of some of our lives, just like the many other things we share. If I talk sbout how I believe, it's not because I'm trying to force anybody to believe the same. Seriously, we all have big girl pants (or big boy pants). I might not be as into the "green" stuff as some, but I'm not offended at somebody else's passion.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I love lamp...

holley79 replied: I LOVED Anchorman.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: You asked about the Bible. I think depending on what chapter you are reading it can be literal or allegorical. You can't argue that it cannot be both unless you've read and studied it. Sorry, but you just can't. Some parts of the Bible are quite literal. Some you have to do more research on and dig deeper, but I've found that any and all of it applies to life now. Nothing has really changed. Everything they faced in the Bible times, we are facing today. It's quite interesting. As far as Revelation goes, I don't think that we were meant to understand that. I don't think anyone will until they actually live through the end times. And no, I don't believe that is anytime soon. I think that when the end times are here, it will be worse than we ever imagined. The world will be completely destroyed with natural disasters and wars. We aren't even close to that. At least I don't think so. You never know. But, like someone else said....I will be ready no matter when it happens.

redchief replied: Hmmm...

Is this a theological position, or based upon some personal analysis of that particular part of Revelation? As I understand it from my catechism, Babylon, as written in Revelation, refers to Rome, or the enemy. We must remember that scripture was written to be understood by the people of its authors' times. Much of Revelation's inferences to evil and its forces focus upon Rome, the great conquerors of the time. They were hated as interlopers and ignorant heretics.

See, this is what I'm trying to say. Much of the meaning in the stories and histories put forth in the Christian and Judean religious texts are lost on us because we don't understand the way speech and thoughts transfered. Sure it was all translated into our native tongues, but much was lost in that translation. The original writers were, to my beliefs, inspired to write by God, but that did not exempt them from thinking and writing like the humans they were. So personal observation, prose and even politics of the times must have entered into the translations. That doesn't make them historically inaccurate, but it also doesn't make them reliable historical accounts, if you see my meaning.

cameragirl21 replied: by definition, an allegory is not literal, whether you've studied the text or not, so you can choose it to be either or, or a combination of the two, in which case I listed plenty of options.
Ed, my thoughts on babylon go hand in hand with two possibilities--either it's literal, in which case babylon is already destroyed or it's allegorical and a reference to a powerful empire, the most powerful in the world, which at this time, is most definitely the USA. we are considered enemy to many around the world.
i never read revelation in its entirety but i do think that if we're not meant to understand it, then it's pointless for it to be given to use to read, no?
btw, wasn't John in prison when he wrote it, you also have to take these circumstances into mind, imo.
the point is not to have a religious discussion or to debate about what babylon and/or any aspect of the bible means. i was just curious if people take it at face value or believe there is hidden meaning. something allegorical is not necessarily not factual, it's just not written to be taken at face value, but may be based on facts.
it's a rather fascinating discussion if people can get past the fact that it refers to a religious document.

5littleladies replied:
No debating here-Just wanted to say I think John was in exile on the island of Patmos.

holley79 replied: How can you have a Bible discussion without is being about religion? Isn't that what the Bible is?

holley79 replied:
Yes you are very right. He was not in prison.

John of Patmos

jcc64 replied: What Ed said, as usual....

redchief replied:
Actually, it's both.

The references to Babylon in Revelation relate directly back to the prophet Isaiah's prophecy regarding it. Again, in Revelation the reference to Babylon is figurative, meaning evil conquerors. The city of Babylon was destroyed before Jesus. It has never been rebuilt and so could not have existed in St. John's time, if indeed he is the author. The original text was authored by "the Seer of Patmos." The Church has long held that the author is probably St. John the Apostle, who was imprisoned there, but it is not certain.

Pope Benedict spoke of Revelation at length in a speech in August of 2006, if anyone is interested in his interpretation of the text, you may read it here.

holley79 replied:
Hey Ed, is "being held in exile" the same as being imprisoned or is it more along the lines of one being shunned? I was just wondering because when I was looking up John of Patmos, it said he was living in exile on the Greek Island of Patmos?

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I'm going to be quite frank here - and say that the bible is one big misinterpreted book - as is the torah, the q'ran etc etc and so on and so on... after doing my own independant research and realizing that the "messiah" of sooo many different religions and cultures are all basically the same pile of stuff... born december 25th of a virgin... visited by 3 kings who followed a star... died and 3 days later was born again... bringer of life... etc etc... and you know what... doing independant research on that, and on zodiac (I'm incredibly interested in astrology!), Jesus, or Joseph, the lesser known "other version of Jesus", Horus the egyptian sun god, dionisus the greek god... and so on and so on... and just simply put... personnifications of the actual SUN. Which is the bringer of life.. and on December 25th... the sun, the north star and the 3 stars known as the 3 kings line up... and as for when "jesus" dies and is "resurrected" after 3 days.. well the sun changes axis and the sun JUST happens to stop moving for 3 days... the 3rd days it rises 1 degree before the days get longer again... so.. i dunno.

The whole thing about the zodiac also screws me up - see, cuz the "ages" change about every 2100 years... has to do with the rotation of the earth in alignment with the other planets.. we are now in the "age of the pisces", and that's the Jesus Fish.. jesus the fisherman.. brought life with fish... says, in the bible - and i'm loosely paraphrasing.. to his disciples, that when the time is done (I think the word used was aeon) that they will see a man carrying a pitcher of water enter a house... and to follow him. The man with a pitcher has always signified the Aquarius... and yep..as corny as it is, scientifically we are actually dawning on the age of aquarius... which...looking at it completely outside the box, would relate the question back to the OP about hurricanes, global warming... water... aquarius...

Check the similarities of the prophets names... moses.. check other religions.. when he came down from the mountain, he found the people idolizing a golden bull... Taurus... it was the age of the Taurus. After that... people idolized the goat... Aries... and for centuries and centuries (and I think still to this day) many cultures across the world used Goat's horns... and then jesus... ages of pisces... and now we're coming into the aquarius - although it won't change in our lifetime.. more around 2150...


Don't get me wrong... I do have faith... BUT - I also have faith that thousands of years of similarities between faiths/cultures/religions, can't necessarily all be wrong and this particular time can be the "true" one. SOO... no, I do not believe in the bible.

***touch***

((Kudos to you if you have an open mind, and actually made it to the end of my post without having to stop and hit respond to vehemently defend "your faith" against my own personal belief, which does not judge your faith at all, whatever it may be... for it's all the same darn thing anyways, just in a different language. ))

My3LilMonkeys replied: Rocky, is that a theory you came up with on your own, or have you read it somewhere? It sounds rather interesting, but I've never heard of it before.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
No, it's not a theory of "mine".. I read bits and pieces of it here and there over the years... and have recently looked into the film Zeitgeist, which discusses it at length..breaks down the similarities for you... and if you have an open mind, is actually extremely interesting to watch.

My3LilMonkeys replied: I'll have to see if I can find it - it sounds very interesting. Is it something I might be able to get at Blockbuster, or would I have to search a little more?

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Um...yeah, probably... you can stream it online though:

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

ETA - and yes, the first few minutes looks like bad tv snow.. but it's just supposed to be talking. It gets into it after a little while...about 11 minutes or so into it is when it's not...boring.... Wierd imagery.

Also ETA - there's a LOT of imagery... not necessarily for everyone, and definitely not to watch around kids. Gives a grim perspective on the way life is.

My3LilMonkeys replied: I bookmarked it to watch later, thanks!!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
no problem... it was just pretty neat, it just gives a whole new outlook on the way things are. I didn't watch parts 2 and on, because GWBush makes my blood boil, and i really wasn't interested in what came after...just the religious theory stuff. But feel free. lol