Bad Dad or Real Life? - question about handling a 20 yr old

Steve Hogenson wrote: I have a 20 year old son that I'm having some challenges with, and am curious and asking for advice.

When he graduated from high school, he decided he would attend tech school. After he completed that (which I provided funds for on a loan basis, no questions asked), he decided it was boring and that he wanted to be a chef instead. He had his eye on a special school in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area here in MN, about a hour from where we live, that costs about $35,000 for a 15 month program.

I gave him the opportunity to live at home for a year, with the understanding that during that year he would find full time work (at least 40 hours per week) and save his money for his future plans.

He spent the first 10 months of that time sleeping until all hours of the day, watching TV, playing video games, talking on the phone with his girlfriend, and not making much of an effort to become productive.

Two months ago, I told him how unhappy I was with this whole situation, that I felt he had taken advantage of me, and that I had been gracious enough to allow him to live free for a year, but as of June 1, I would be expecting him to pay rent of $400 a month.

Today his payment came due. He doesn't have the money, but was able to be out until 4:45 a.m. with his 18 year old brother at one of our state casinos over an hour away from home (without our knowledge) with some friends while I sat up waiting for them to get home.

He says he doesn't think that he should have to pay rent, that he doesn't know anybody who's trying to make money off their kids the way he claims I do. We've expected the kids to pay their portions of auto insurance, and cell bills (before we took them off our plan due to their irresponsibility there as well). but he thinks he's being picked on, that I'm being a bad, non-supportive father. I told him that it's not my job to provide him a free ride through life, that he'd decided one way to go and then changed his mind when he found out that it wasn't a thrill a minute, and now seems to think he's entitled to no responsibilities while he tries out this next area of life.

He works at a local restaurant, and between his car payment and insurance, cell bill, credit card bill at Pennys for clothes that he charged because he figured I wouldn't buy them, says he uses up everything he makes.

Added to all that is the friction of a second marriage for me after his mom was killed in an auto accident 3 1/2 years ago. I started dating my current wife 8 months after my first wife's death, and got married a year and 5 months after she was killed. He feels that his stepmom makes all the rules. I tried to explain that any big decision involving the kids is made jointly. She may have an idea, but she doesn't implement it without asking me first.

He claimed I wasn't being a father. I said he'd always had all his needs taken care of as he was growing up, and had extras besides. I had always made an effort to be at the things he was in, concerts, special events, and so on, and to try to do things with them. I've been a teacher for 22 years, and have had the summers off that go with that job, so I haven't been an absent dad. I've done things with all my kids, including him. He was in his high school drumline for 3 years, and I drove all over the state going to performances that he was in to be a very visible support. I've told him many times how much I love him and how proud I am of him.

So, to the jury of my peers who may be reading this: Am I being reasonable asking him to help with expenses at his age, given the nature of what I've already done, or am I being a bad dad? I would really appreciate any responses to be sent to: mntrpt@aol.com, as I check my emails often, and would like some advice from other parents out there who have dealt with this issue themselves. Thanks!

alice&arik replied: I think it is totally reasonable to have him pay for his stuff. I am only 23 and obviously don't have a 20 yr old. But I had to start paying my own way when I got my first job at 16. I had to pay my own car payment, car insurance, and buy my own clothes. It taught me a lot about being independent and not relying on other people. Today people tell me how great it is that I do everything on my own. I would never expect my parents to pay for anything.

HTH!

coasterqueen replied: I don't think you are being unreasonable at all! Now thinking back almost 10 years ago, I would have told you that you were being unfair, lol.

I had a pretty crappy relationship with my dad and was kicked out for the 2nd time at age 17 to live and fend for myself. My dad was all about teaching me those hard lessons in life including money lessons. I had to start working at age 15 when I was old enough to get a work permit and I had to buy my own clothes, pay for gas for the crappy car he gave me (not complaining, though) and other things.

At 17 I had to grow up really fast, get a full-time job, a place to live, etc. It was a complete eye-opener for me but has made me who I am today. I hated my parents for kicking me out and still do for the *reason* they kicked me out, but it made me grow up and I'm thankful for it now. I still don't think they should have kicked me out for the reason they did, that was completely awful of them, but that's a different story.

Anyways, I have paid and still am paying for my own college, etc, etc. I appreciate money now. I have friends who are 30+, I'm 29, that are still living off their parents for everything and don't do anything. I think that's completely wrong.

I think asking for rent is very reasonable. Let your son know you may have not done that if he would have been more responsible. I have an older friend who had a son like yours. She and her DH did everything they could to get him to be responsible and he didn't listen. Instead of asking for rent, they said as of such and such a date, you are gone. You are to find your own place to live, etc. He didn't listen, he didn't think they were being serious. That date, they had all of his stuff packed in a uhaul and told him to leave. Awful, but now he is a very responsible 25 year old. That's the lesson he needed in life to get himself straight.

I don't know what to say, except you are not a horrible parent and what you are doing is very reasonable. If it was my son and he was doing what you are saying, I'd be seriously considering throwing his bum on the street to make him realize. I love my DD more than anything in the world and hope she doesn't end up being this way, but seeing how many of my friends are like this, I won't let my child do that. It may be a hard lesson to learn, but sometimes it takes drastic measures to get them to listen. I don't want to look 10 years down the road (when she's 20+) and see she's still living off of me and not contributing anything at all.

jem0622 replied: Just my frank two cents...you, as the parent...shelled out money for YEARS to support him. You, as a parent, set expectations after he WASTED your hard earned money 'trying' things out to see what interested him.

If he can't abide by your house rules and pay the rent then he needs to move out. I am not trying to be nasty. I am a loving mother. But he is 20 yrs old. And he has totally disrepected you in this situation. He is trying to tug at your heartstrings but see your responsibility as a parent ended (financially) when he turned 18. Everything you did for him was a priviledge, not a right. And he needs to respect you.

I got pregnant when I was 17. Had my daughter when I was 18. I was lucky to have parents who didn't kick me out. But the agreement was that you lived there rent free if you were going to school full time. Once that was over it was on you. When I was in school my parents couldn't afford my education and I didn't expect them to pay b/c of all they did for me when I was coming up. I sucked it up and got college loans and now it's my debt. Suze Orman will even tell you not to put your money into your child's college education. And I agree with her 100%.

You have been a great Dad all these years. Either he respects you and pays the rent or he gets out. The only thing I would say is this...if he were living on his own...in an apartment...he'd have a few extra days after the 1st to pay. So give him a reminder that you are expecting payment and if he doesn't plan to pay he needs to make other living arrangements.

DansMom replied: When I was 18 and I wanted to live rent-free while pursuing a life-style my mother did not approve of, she asked for rent. It was that or go to college, those were my choices---after spending some time feeling and behaving like I was being mistreated, I chose college. I am now 40 and grateful to my mother for her commitment to my true interests. If she hadn't made her stand back then, I don't know where I would be today.

In my opinion, you are doing the right thing and a very, very important thing---not the popular thing, but definitely the right thing. And as long as your son is basically well-brought up and has had your support and positive feedback over the course of his childhood, he will likely find his way to the right choices. I think he'll get there faster if you stand your ground now. Every family is different, of course. I hope you all get past this bump in the road successfully!

kimberley replied: i don't think you are being unreasonable at all. i know as parents, we want to give our kids everything we didn't have but we cannot do that for their own good. they need to learn responsibility or they will never be able to cope on their own in the real world and will come to you forever to bail them out. my grandmother did this with my dad. he is helpless without me or a woman by his side. he has no idea how to be financially responsible and he is 51yo! but i thank him for not making me that way. he told me if i wanted the designer clothing or a high tech walkman (yes i am dating myself), i would have to get a part time job to pay for it myself. i was 14yo and haven't stopped working (except on mat. leave) since. i don't know anyone at 20yo (except DH) that doesn't pay for rent, so i don't know how your son can say that. your battle is a hard one because you have basically given him everything for all these years and now he feels like you are cutting him off. it is time for you to put your foot down. if he doesn't like it, let him try to make it on his own.. without your help, and see how long he lasts. he will appreciate you more in the end. stay strong and good luck.

amynicole21 replied: I dropped out of college (or took a very long break ) when I was 20 and moved back in with my mother. I paid rent happily, and wouldn't have expected anything else. I don't think you are being unreasonable in the least bit. I'm 28 now, but when I was younger I would have most likely tried to do exactly what your son is doing... get whatever I could get without paying for it. He's playing you, plain and simple. Stick to your guns, you're doing fine.

CantWait replied: ITA with everyone else. Enough said here.

porksdad replied:

I would guess you are dealing with a whole heap of issues here, and the very fact that you came here to seek couselling answers the question on whether you are being a good dad, the fact that you care enough to find out says it all..

Clearly in the past you have included the concept of paying his way in your parenting, so it should come as little surprise to him. However, I get the impression he may have seen that as punishment for some wrongdoing rather than taking on responsibility for himself.??


20 year old boys/men can be very mature equally they can be very immature, it seems that your son needs to do some growing up, though maybe hanging with his younger brother, who I assume is all paid for, gives him the idea that he can still continue to act like he is a kid.

Clearly as long as he can get away with a free ride he will, point comes down to how you correct the current situation...not wishing to indulge in amateur psychology, you will probably find there are issues with his mother passing (condolances) and a new wife to be dealt with in there somewhere. I remember in my late teens a close friends mother passed and in came new wife, she clearly wanted to make changes to the house etc.. they went away for the weekend--some 2 years after the marriage and came back early to find the children aged 16-25 had changed the house back to how mother had it and moved everything of hers into a spare room-erasing her from the house for a week-clearly planning to replace all before she returned. Living in the same house or with same furniture can cause problems for your new wife, changing everything can cause problems for your kids, no easy out on that one sadly except patience and understanding, and your heart breaking in the middle

The comment about your new wife `running' things may be more due to the fact that she does things differently to how `mum' did them, which means the changes stand out far more than the things that stay the same...

However I am not a fan of kicking your children out of the house, simply because I am not wholly convinced this teaches them anything, except as a last resort

One problem you have is your son cannot budget--on that basis alone I would think your rent monthly is doomed to failure.

I have no idea how much he earns from his current working situtation but perhaps sitting down with him and going through his fixed bills--such as credit cards, car payments and the like, will enable both of you to appreciate how much he `wastes'...by the sound of his work it probably pays weekly rather than monthly so perhaps once you have established together what he and you agree he could reasonably afford to pay then you charge weekly rather than monthly, avoiding him seeing a large lump sum to pay each month after he has spent it all. Be clear in these discussions that this is not a question of whether he will pay but an issue of how much and how often

once he has become established in the routine of paying and is learning--maybe with your guidance, how to manage his finances, then you can agree increases, and move it to a fortnightly payment, fnally monthly by which time he may have learnt about budgetting and personal responsibility...

just a thought

But I 100% agree with you--I was paying rent from the age of 19 and never expected anything differently. While I was studying my father covered me, when I dropped out I had to work or do without and when I was working I paid my way...


Good luck to you with it all--and as you are a teacher I humbly request you DONT correct my grammer--as mentioned above I dropped out LOL

kit_kats_mom replied: Let me start by saying that my mom still introduces me occasionally as "my daughter, the recovered a$$hole." oh yeah, she's a funny one all right. LOL

Anyway, it sounds like you've got a lot on your plate but it can be handled. My mom did pretty much the same thing you did. She paid for a program at the local technical school and I pretty much skipped class and failed. It wasnt' until I had waited tables and worked some other crappy, low paying jobs, that I realized the value of money and education. Oh, I also blew my car up by forgetting to put oil in it and she refused to fix it for me. I was carless for a couple of years and that was rough.

I finally started classes at the local community college after I'd moved out of my mom's house. It took me a LONG time to obtain my degree because I did have to work the entire time but I think that I appreciated it much more and i made great grades.

Now, she did help me financially, but not until she saw that I was helping myself first. When I was enrolled in courses, she would help with deposits on apartments, car repairs etc but that was mainly because she knew how much I made and it really was pretty pitiful. LOL I have a ton of student loans but I really think my mom did the right thing. My DH taught a few courses at the local community college and he found that students who are making their own way, are more commited to learning than the "13 th graders" whose parents pay their way.

I think you are being totally reasonable.

Guest replied: Sounds like maybe he really needs a reality check!!
But perhaps, with all you've described his bills to be, $400.00 is too much for rent.
If I'm understanding what you've said, the money isn't the issue, but rather the lesson that life isn't free is. Why don't you two sit down with his bills and figure up how much he makes at work and how much his bills are and how much he has left over, THEN come up with a joint decision on how much rent he CAN afford. Then make him stick with it. I understand your point of view but I also understand his, it's hard to save up money to make anything of your life..be it moving out on your own or saving to pay for culinary school or whatever it is he wants to do with his life when every penny he makes(which at this stage in his life probably isn't a lot) goes to bills. I think he needs some direction, try being a friend for a night and let the dad stuff go for a few hours...sit down and help him figure things out and try to be as nonjudgemental as possible...he'll open up and be more responsive that way!

Boys r us replied: That up there was me...didn't realize I wasn't logged in!