At the risk of being banned or getting things - started again - why we pay taxes...

Bamamom wrote: It seems to me that no one ever answered this question and that concerns me so - as a political science teacher - here goes:

We pay taxes to contribute to the common good. Our taxes go to maintain our streets, pay our emergency personnel, create jails to house people that might hurt us, buy military equipment, pay military personnel, pay our leaders who act on our behalf, pay teachers (yeah, that was me - now I'm a SAHM), pay for things such as red lights, city parks and pools, buy supplies for all government agencies, and million other things.

Please, Please, Please don't turn this into a debate about welfare. Our taxes do SO much more than that. We should all pay them and be greatful that they are not higher, we definitely recieve more than we contribute. That's one of the cool things about this country.

luvbug00 replied: I'd hope we pay taxes to get the things we need to run this country. lights, roads, repairs and troops.
tis all.

moped replied: All true.......was there an actual question?

We need to pay taxes for everything mentioned above

Bamamom replied:
It was part of another post thqt turned ugly. I don't want to get all that rolling again but I think our taxes are a small price to pay to live here. I just couldn't not answer that person's question about why we pay taxes. I think sometime people don't understand just what happens with that money - they think the government just dwiddles it away - and granted some of it gets dwiddles away but I think we should also remember all the good it does and not take that part of things for granted.

Sorry I'm afraid I'm going

luvbug00 replied: it is a small price to pay as long as it's going tward things this country needs then it's all gravey with me.

Mommy_Michele replied:
I agree!

ashtonsmama replied:
I agree with Nadia. AMEN. I will say no more.

Boys r us replied: How right you are!! Someone has to pay for all of the things we need in order for our towns to function!

I'll be honest though...it hurts an AWFUL AWFUL lot when Uncle Sam holds his hand out and demands 40% of my family's income..almost half! I think somehow someway everyone should have to pay the same amount of taxes. Or...even more fair, do away with income taxes and just tax the things we buy heavier. Afterall, the people with more money would still be paying more in taxes, based on the theory that they have more money to buy things with. I just don't and can't ever agree that because someone either goes out and makes a really good living that that person should be held more accountable than his neighbor who as luck/fate would have it only makes half of his annual income. After all, doesn't it cost the same for the 911 operator to answer an incoming call from a family who makes $25k a year as it does an incoming call from a household who makes $250k a year?
The same for the cost of the streets we drive on, the people we pay to run the local government, the teachers who teach our kids..ect.

Just to put it in perspective, hypothetically let's say we earned $100,000 last year, the government gets 40,000 of it! HOW?????????
How is that when the family who earns $25k the government gets $1,500 of it?


edited b/c of random typos!

Our Lil' Family replied:
You make some very valid points!!!

luvmykids replied: I'm glad you started this thread, I wanted to respond to that in the other thread but didn't. I think it's a pretty simple concept, if we didn't pay taxes where would the money come from for schools, assistance for elderly, military, etc? Granted not many of our government programs are perfect, and some are pathetic, but think how bad they'd be without taxpayer funding? What would we have done when I was pg with the twins, no insurance, and no money to our names? Thank goodness for assistance and thank goodness I didn't feel bad taking the government up on it because I'd paid my dues so far.

Somtimes I wish taxes were lower but I have no problem contributing to the things our country does for us. The benefits far outweigh the taxes, IMO.

coasterqueen replied:
Very very interesting points Nichole. I really have to sit back and ponder on this one because I like your views. I'm just not sure I've ever thought it out far enough myself.

Very valid points.

jcc64 replied: Well, my appetite for controversy here after the ZPG threads is minimal, but since you brought it up...
No one likes to cough up his/her hard earned cash- NO ONE! Not the dude that makes $10K flipping burgers, and not the CEO of Exxon/Mobil who made over $144, 000 A DAY! The difference between the 2 is of course that money begets more money- and the well heeled have the ability to find very creative ways to shelter their cash, unlike the people at the bottom of the scale. Furthermore, while it is possible to live on 40% of $100,000, or 40% of $2.5 million, it is not possible to survive on 40% of 10,000, which is why I believe we should not compel everyone to pay at the same rate. These have been good times for those folks at the upper echelons of our economy- 'tis not the time to be complaining about taxes, imo. Compared to other developed nations, our taxes are quite low, ridiculously low, actually. When I last visited the UK in 1990 (16 yrs ago now), gas was over $3.50/gallon- and people weren't complaining. Everything you bought had an outrageous value added tax (or something to that effect)- so the final price was always WAY higher than you thought it would be. What all those crushing taxes buy is universal health coverage, subsidized day care, and all sorts of other social services not available to us here in the States. Your tax rate is high, but you can get sick there and not worry about losing your house or sending your family into eternal debt after you're gone. You can stay home with your kids, if that's what you believe is the right thing to do, to bring up the earlier example. People seem more willing to accept the notion that their gov't will provide for them if they provide for it through higher taxes. It's an arrangement that we're far less comfortable with here, and the result is a society where it's every man for himself. It's not a notion I'm particularly comfortable with, but apparently alot of people are.
I don't mind paying taxes at all- what I mind is my tax dollars being used to satisfy a political payoff to this interest group or that, this constituency or that. The bridge to nowhere in Alaska comes to mind, but the list is horrifying and infinite. And the amount of bureaucratic waste and inefficiency is grotesque. Finally, I find it very hard to swallow that my money is being used to fund a war I believe is immoral, but, but, well, nothing. 'Nuff said.

luvmykids replied:
Also, don't mean to step on toes, but the people who pay the least taxes seem to get the most benefit from the government. Which is what the programs are for, and I do not begrudge that to anyone who needs it, it's just that sometimes even people in a higher income bracket truly run into a wall and need help but don't qualify even though they pay so much more in taxes.

I like your idea of everyone paying the same, or even better your idea of doing away with income tax and taxing what we buy!!

jcc64 replied: it's just that sometimes even people in a higher income bracket truly run into a wall and need help but don't qualify even though they pay so much more in taxes.
[QUOTE]


No truer words were ever spoken when it comes time for all of us to put our kids through college! Have no clue how that's gonna happen!

Boys r us replied: I understand what you're saying Jeanne, i really do!

It just pains my DH and I to go to work everyday and know that the first 3 hours are to pay the government and the remaining 5 actually go to my family when the girl across the hall may be getting 7 1/2 hours pay for her family, while uncle sam gets 30 minutes of her time! Not fair!...ahh but so is life!

MommyToAshley replied: I see both sides of the coin here. A family that only makes $25,000 couldn't survive if they had to pay 40% of their income to taxes.

However, on the flip side... we pay a considerable amount of taxes which go to all the things mentioned above, but a large portion does go to public assistance in which medicare/medicade is funded. Being self-employed, it's so hard to afford good insurance but yet we pay for other people's insurance that don't even work. Something just doesn't seem right there?

Also, there have been years when we have worked harder and made more money, but yet our gross income was less because we paid a larger percentage in taxes. What's the motivation to become educated, work harder, and do a better job if in the end the reward is less?

Nicole, Rod agrees completely with you and I think he has posted about it before. He has been telling me for a long time that he would love to see us get rid of income tax and go completely to a sales tax. Then, you are taxed on what you buy and not what you make. At first thought, this sounds like a great idea. But, I'd have to know more about the details before I jumped on board. For example, would new homes be included in this? If so, it might hinder people in lower income brackets to be able to buy a home.

Along the same lines.... I am all for privaticizing social security. I believe in giving people the power to use and invest thier own money. I know I can do a better job of planning for my future with the money I now pay into social security and have a higher return then I get from Uncle Sam. Heck, just putting it in a regular savings account would yeild better returns.

Interesting topic... I am glad that we can discuss this in a civil manner.

MommyToAshley replied: I just wanted to add something and it is not meant to offend anyone, just something to think about. I know a lot of people get excited about getting a tax return, but what some fail to realize is that Uncle Same is not giving you money. The gov't is just returning a portion of YOUR money that you over-paid that the gov't made interest on instead of you. (you, meaning in general... not you personally)

I never realized how much we pay in taxes until we started our business. It really is an eye opener when you have to pay the money out of your bank account each quarter rather than receiving a check that already has the taxes taken out. I think if everyone had to pay quarterly, then there would be a lot more people saying tax rates are too high.

With all that being said, I love this country and I love living here. It will take asking these types of questions and coming up with solutions that will make it even greater.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Yeah... a couple years ago I had 3% gotten a raise - that put me just over the tax bracket I was in (went from 21% up to 26%). While I was thrilled about having "more" money - it was an unpleasant surprise when my paycheque was actually LESS than my previous lower salary.

Stupid how I got a 3% raise - but I had to pay an exta 5% taxes... so I actually lost 2% of my pay.

Go figure.

My3LilMonkeys replied:
I have been trying to tell DH that for 3 years - he just can't get past the big fat check every year.

This is a very interesting issue, and it's nice to see the different opinions. I'm really not sure where I stand on it, but the idea of no income tax - all sales taxes sounds interesting.

ilovemybaby replied: I don't know how things run in America/Canada but here in NZ everyone pays the same tax rate. And that's all I am going to say.

redchief replied:
ITA, Jeanne. Pork barrel spending is much of the reason I'm so anti-gov't. Well, not so much anti-gov't as anti-spend-my-money-badly. Truly valuable social services are a benefit to society. Unfortunately our federal government, and almost as often our state gov'ts, are incapable of running any program efficiently and without waste. When that changes, my feelings about the growth of gov't will change and not until.

I know taxes are necessary, but why is it our so-called representatives keep throwing our money into programs that have little, if any benefit to all of the people? More importantly, how do we reverse the cycle of waste?

redchief replied:
A sales tax based budget would be great if it weren't for the volatility of the market. The economy is way too fickle to predict from year to year and therefore wouldn't make a stable source of government income.

I'm all for fairer tax algorithms, but I don't think that's the answer. There are just too many economical unknowns for sales taxes to be a reliable source of federal funds.

mammag replied: Ooh this topic gets me hot! Yes, we do have to have taxes for the first mentioned services, of course. But the more I think on taxes the hotter I get. We pay federal, state, local, school district, sales tax..... If you are smart enough to invest your money you have to pay taxes on what you earn there, don't make the mistake of dying...you get to pay taxes then too....and oh yes, let us not forget the marriage penalty.

People complain about the big oil companies "price gouging"....yeah, I think they could be but how much is going to the government there?

I completely agree with a flat tax. There is no reason that a person should be punished for doing right by themselves, bettering themselves, and making more money because of it. And if you think it was just their luck, their fate....well I don't think they should be punished for that either. I have heard of many people who get a raise, jump to the next tax bracket and lose money. That is absurd!!!! There is a whole lot of waste in the government and I think it is THAT which makes people angry, not the valid, needed services that the government does provide. And yes, welfare is one of them. Not in all cases because, as I've said before, it is a needed thing for many people. But for many, as in the other post, it is a choice they are making that we, the tax payers, are paying for.

Perhaps if we lose some of the waste (art endowments, fraudulent welfare recipients, medicare fraud, etc.) we could put the money to use where it is really needed instead of just asking the taxpayers to shell out more and more everyday.

C&K*s Mommie replied: The answer may always be unknown...

b&bsmom replied: I am not sure who said it but I agree with how the higher up know how to take all the exemptions as us little people are not as savy with that. I feel that everyone should pay the same tax rate however, it does need to be adjusted somewhat because someone did bring up the point how someone making $100,000 can live on 40% where as someone making $25,000 couldn't but I just feel like there are too many exemptions/loop holes where the higher up get away with so much more. Don't want to offend anyone and I am not the smartest person to be talking about this kind of thing but that is JMO for what it is worth.

Boys r us replied: Perhaps big coorporate America knows how to get away with more...but what about the people like my DH and I who go to work 40 hours a week and then also run a company of our own...we're busting our rumps trying to give our family a good life and only half of the work we do is for ourselves..the other half is for the government. I do our own taxes and then also have our accountant re-do them. Let me preface this by saying, I'm not real slick when it comes to "legal tax evasion" I don't really know anymore about how to hide things than your average citizen...my accountant on the other hand is part of a tax firm who has been around for many decades (family run) ...there is usually a 300-500 dollar savings that the accountant can find for me that I missed...but, it cost me a lot more than that to pay them to find it! I do it for peace of mind, b/c I don't want to be in jail one day or owing the govt some huge chunk of change b/c I made an honest mistake or something!

My point is that when people think of the 40% tax bracket...they think of Exxon. Well, my DH and I are far froom EXXON! We just own a small little construction company and build spec houses and flip investment homes on the side of our regular jobs. Like Dee Dee said, once you realize you're paying the govt half of what you're making..it sort of takes away the motivation to better yourself!

I'm not suggesting everyone pay 40% taxes..but why can't I pay into taxes at the same rate as someone who pays lower taxes? After all, we all play our part...the people with more money are spending more money INTO our economy, the big companies are investing into our communities by being a vital, vibrant company and having jobs to offer. See, it's all really one big circle of rubbing each others backs! B/c if the big companies didn't hire the people, then the people wouldn't have jobs and if the people didn't have jobs, the government wouldn't make any money off of their taxes and no one would have money to support our economy. So it's a foodchain of sorts where everyone is important...the little guys and the big guys. I get so tired of hearing how the big companies this and that and they deserve to pay x amount in...and the people with money etc..
My DH and I do alright..we make a good living...but most of the profit we get off of the houses we sell, goes right back into buying another house so that we don't have to borrow money from the bank for mortgages...why? b/c that would be even more wasted profit we worked for going to bank fees and interest. We pay in at 40%, but we're not some filthy rich family who struck oil and now just sit back and count our $100 bills outback by the pool while our maids bring us another martini! LOL We're normal working people, struggling to make it in this great big world and it's just not fair that I'm anymore responsible for fixing the potholes in the road than my neighbor!

I bet if some of you who think "us people" deserve to be paying in 40% of our paycheck had it happen to you just once..I bet then it matter!

lisar replied:
I agree.

jcc64 replied: Perhaps if we lose some of the waste (art endowments, fraudulent welfare recipients, medicare[QUOTE]

You're losing me, Jeanie. The amount of our federal budget that goes to art endowments is laughable small, compared to the BILLIONS that we lose to corporate loopholes and tax shelters. (cough, corporate "headquarters" in Bermuda, cough). Yes, there is waste everywhere you turn, but the amount of money we lose to welfare fraud is nothing, absolutley nothing, compared to corporate welfare and fraud. And I don't care how much money they bring in or jobs they create- fraud is fraud is fraud.

coasterqueen replied: Jeanne - I think you would love our G-Rod Democratic Governor. Although he's as fraudulent as the next, he is trying to tax big business and stop all the tax loopholes. Although that is driving business out of our state so badly that we are in big trouble, our state is.

Anyways, in general I know I took on a "second job" of cleaning our office here for an extra $250 a month. The first year I did it it put us in such a higher tax bracket that we were paying more and it was totally NOT worth me cleaning the office for that extra $250 a month. I took on the job so I could put that money in a college fund for the girls. You just can't win, never.

The whole topic is interesting because my co-worker and I have been talking a lot about what has been discussed on this board recently, i.e. taxes, welfare, etc. She has one daughter in college now and one who will be going to college soon. She can't get any financial assistance for her daughter because her and her DH make too much money (to who's standards?) so they had to take out their own loan. Do you know why they considered they made to much or that they had too much money? Because not only was their salaries looked at but the amount of money they had in a college fund was looked at. Even though that amount was no where near enough to pay for her college, not even one year! She's been telling me after talking with other parents that in their child's sophmore to junion year they are pulling out any college savings they have and "hiding it under their mattress" so it can not be looked at when trying to get financial aid. So in a sense people are penalized for trying to do what's right, save for their children's education. It's CRAZY!!!!!!

Oh I could go on for ages.

ETA that I have WAY too many grammatical errors in this post, please forgive me. I'm too tired to correct them.

mammag replied:
Sounds like you are under an incorrect assumption that because I'm Republican I agree with corporate fraud..... Well, I suppose since they are doing it then we will just ignore fraud everywhere. Should we go back to the childhood excuse of "well they did it first"?

On the other hand, if there are tax cuts I could take that I'm not, darn right I'm going to take them. It's MY money not the governments money. It's the corporations money, not the governments. If they are doing something illegal, book 'em. Anyone who doesn't take a legal tax cut they they should be taking is a fool. Anyone who is taking illegal tax cuts is a crook and should be treated accordingly.

The difference here is that the government is taking my money and giving it to art that no one wants to look at (which is why they need the money to continue) and bailing out companies (like airlines) that can't make it, and giving it to people who don't want to go to work so they get government assistance, etc. I couldn't list the many ways the government wastes OUR money.

The main point of all this is was not how the government is wasting money, it's how they are getting the money to waste. By taxing us from all corners.

Yep, fraud is fraud is fraud..........so do something about it. You say the amount of welfare fraud is small, care to share the numbers? And how would you go about getting those numbers?

coasterqueen replied: Very interesting points Jeannie.

Just curious for anyone who may want to answer. How many of you look at your state level and what goes on with taxes and where your money goes? I ask because I watch it very very closely since I am in a field with a political nature. We just passed a budget here a few weeks ago and I am sickened at the budget and the Democratic views here that "well they did it first, etc, etc" and just where they are taking money from to pay for other things, pork projects, etc. Makes me just thinking about it. I have to quit here w/what is going on in our state for fear of it coming back to someone I know.

~~*Missi*~~ replied: I think its OK to pay taxes if EVERYONE was seeing the benefits from it. BUT I KNOW that is not the case....

Like here in WNY ERIE county to be more exact.... We keep getting SLAMMED with tax raises to cover the screw ups of the idiots in office.... Like for example Joel Giambra... We were like 6m in the hole and he had at least 10 people from his family on the payroll for jobs and then his friend (who the name is escaping me) had jsut as many if not MORE on the payroll... HE WAS FORCED TO FIRE THEM after the budget cuts but YET why the heck where they all ALLOWED to be hired in the first place.
We had a property tax increase.... BUT yet we close 20 public libraries, closed a couple schools, shut down at least 5 fire stations etc... The roads from the salt in some areas are so bad I could loose my car in the pot holes. YET some of these roads are also TOLL roads HMMMMM.......
Or I live in a middle class neighborhood where the houses range from 150k-220k but yet our sidewalks are all tore apart and uneven.... go to where the houses are 300k and above they are all nicely paved and even.. I can't even imagine what the low income neighborhoods look like......Not to mention we are still cutting back on public services and jobs so where did the increase go.... personally beginning to think in the pocket of legislaters, mayor etc..... cause I know that NOTHING new in the ways of pavement, job, lib, etc.. have come up....

Also I would like to say that I am not starting controversy etc... but I have to say this cause I know that I was astonished by the ZPG post and somethings that i don't think were taking into consideration....

Chris (DH) is a Professional consultant for Mutual of Omaha which is considered as a Independent Contractor or small business owner in WNY. When he started we took out the needed policies Life (200k), Disability (cause as a IC or SB owner he does NOT quallify for any NY state disability claims), and some other policy LOL.
Dec 26th he fell in the driveway and shattered his lower leg needing surgery to undo the damage. He had a spider fracture, spiral and floating bone pieces. He was in the hospital for a week and then home on no movement for 4-6weeks. We had savings and started the process of the disability with Mutual. We still had Mortage, utilities, ccbills etc...... So we started dipping into the savings. NO work in the insurance business means NO money... We used all our savings... We USED ALL our tax refund... everything was gone... The disability was a hassle day in and day out.. We JUST got the disability this week. He went back to work May 3... We didn't HAVE a choice to file for temporary assistance because we took the precautions of getting the policies needed to cover us in the event of a accident or problem... Guess what it did no good. We covered all our P's and Q's and guess what we had nothing... Without my parents and help from the government we would be SOL.. We filed for temporary assistance, food stamps, and medical... With out Chris working we couldn't pay the 500/month family private coverage. With out Chris working and the disability not coming in we had NO income. I could have gone and got a job in my field (nursing) well how Chris couldn't be left alone cause he wasn't allowed to move at first. Therefore he couldn't lift sabrina etc... I could have put sabrina in day care but what if something happened to her there I was working, chris had no car. Not to mention nurses are not in a big demand here right now so i probably would have had to flop whoppers cause the "cuts" with the 6m in the hole was hospitals... So no mattter what i did we ran into a situation his ortho said well what happens if this, or this..... Like if Chris would have had to go pee, leave him a bed side pan and not let him eat... cause he couldn't get up to make it. So we filed and ALL we got with NO income is 399$ in food stamps for 3 people a month... and $290 in cash.. Sorry but I am still floored how we lived. I paid everthing off i could when he first fell and then the rest with the taxes but we still had to diaper sabrina, pay electric, heat... I don't know HOW some people come in downtown and have gold all over, fubu ecko etc... cause we didn't get squat with NO income and OWNING a home...
Proud that we had to go on it, no but thank god that its there for people LIKE US that NEED it when nothing else seems to work in our favor... Not everyone makes the choice TO BE ON WELFARE so I can be a SAHM. Not everyone on it is "trash" or LAZY (that pisses me off) I HAD TO DO 100 hours a MONTH of community service to reiceve the Cash. I am not lazy BUT THERE ARE SITUATIONS THAT PEOPLE NEED THE HELP CAUSE THE PLAN THEY LAID OUT AND THOUGHT WOULD WORK DIDN'T..... Oh and so you know exactly how much we went thru it was approx 10-12k... ALL saving BOOM GONE. All Taxes GONE.... granted NOW i only have my mortage and utilities, insurance, cell, student loans because everything else got paid off to make sure we were ok.... (cc CUT up etc..)
Its not all about being LAZY or thinking WE WERE OWED something.... Its what SOME have to do because there is NO other choice...
Its disgusting to CLUMP everyone that gets assistance in one category and WRONG SO WRONG.....UNLESS you know 100% of the people on welfare or assistance YOU have no right to ASSUME we are all doing it cause we are lazy, feel they owe it to us etc.... You know what assuming does??????
What would you have done in our situation Lost your house, lost your car, etc... cause your better then us to ask for help.

mammag replied:
I don't recall anyone on here saying that everyone on welfare was lazy or just did it to be a SAHM. I for one was referencing a person who admitted to doing it (because she wanted to be home with her kids) without saying names.

I don't believe there is anyone on this board who feels there should be no assistance. The thing is there would be more money for people like you who legitamately needed it if there wasn't so much going out to people who do use it as a way of life because they feel they are entitled to it.

coasterqueen replied: Missi,

I don't think I nor anyone else said that assistance is bad for those who TRULY need it. Clearly you did in that instance. Much different than choosing to be on it to SAH. I think a lot of people believe it's a good thing for those who truly need it. It's the people who don't that I believe give those who do and the program in general a bad name.

Jamison'smama replied: This is slightly off topic but I wanted to make a statement about Government assistance. Government assistance was set up originally to provide people (just like you Missi) short term assistance to get them over a "hump" of sorts. It was put in place to assist the workers when work was no longer available or injury/illness etc. prevented them from going to work. It was NOT set up to be a long term solution for people who "choose" not to work. But since we did such a poor job overseeing the program; we did not assist people back to work etc., it has snowballed into a mess. I do not blame those who are caught up in the welfare cycle because we have made it very difficult to climb out of poverty with our low minimum wage and ghastly educational system in low income areas. I certainly think welfare reform is needed but I for one am okay with my taxes going to those that need a hand up. I KNOW there are many that don't deserve to be getting the checks and the government is working on that but it is a slow process as it has become a huge mess, layers deep and will take decades of dedicated people to figure out.

Edited for spelling

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Missi~ BTDT! Read my reply in ZPG thread...Bill was kicked at work but his boss does not carry workers comp-it tore his ACL and he could NOT work for 4 weeks-we went through all the $$$ we had let go of what we could and applied for assistance because he needed surgery-we were DENIED for everything he had made too much money in the last month. We were told to come back next month when he had had no income. Who can go a month with nothing coming in? We had a baby just starting to get around that he couldn't chase around if I went to work not to mention that I could not bring in the $$$ he does...he was told by the doctors that he would have to be OFF his leg for 3-4 months after the repair to heal correctly. He asked them what would happen if he went back to work and they said he would ruin his knee it will have to be replaced one day but the swelling inside would hold it together for a little while(they don't know how long one wrong step could be the one that tears it apart)-He went back to work and has worked for the past 2 years in a very physical job (cattle) in pain and in danger of blowing what is left of his knee out-and doesn't ever complain MY problem with the "I paid it in I am just getting that back each week" mentality is this-IF you are getting back what you pay in each week then who's money are you getting back at the end of the year(taxreturn)??? We paid in about $10,500 lastyear and got back less than 2 so it seems to me that when you choose to stay home and collect 'your' money all year long at the end of the year you also get a big share of OURS! I do not think anyone here would say you should not have gotten the help you needed-I for one am glad to hear about someone like you who got some help-I know that I would have been able to hold my head high and know my husband had already earned the help he was recieving-I wish that it had worked that way for us....and I pray that we don't have the need to try it again!

ashtonsmama replied: Wow-you ladies can really get it going. Please be nice to each other!

It's all love here.

coasterqueen replied:
Actually I think everyone are being very civil in this discussion. It's nice that we can have heated discussions like this in an adult manner and learn from each other.

ashtonsmama replied:
Oh I agree, don't get me wrong. I was just saying "Continue on!"

Ya'll are sounding very nice and polite.

~~*Missi*~~ replied: I don't know names of the people I was just thinking of posting a post about what is everyones REAL first name. But generalizations where made by some that the 'consenus' is lazy people collect welfare etc.....
I agree that people abuse I just DON'T understand how the heck they do it... because I had to go to classes even put out applications even thou I could prove that Chris couldn't stay home alone and well obviously Sabrina can't.

I know that Chris and I always have extra taken out of our taxes so that we get more back at the end of the year.

When I was single in school I got about 2k back and working full time. When I got married and working in school we got maybe 2k back from federal and good old new york made us pay a 1$ lol..... With Sabrina last year when Chris wasn't working a good job (like 2004, as a manager of BCF making 28k) we got the earned income tax credit for people with 3 in household making under 30k in WNY. 2005 we got it again ONLY becuase clutz boy (DH) was out of work for herniated disc's (yes my husband SUCKS at walking LOL) and the settlement we recieved we didn't have to claim. WHICH i see as a problem. Its earned income so to speak it was a great deal of money... but we didn't have to claim it... Sorry but we should have had to and anyone that gets a settlement should. If Chris was working we would have paid taxes on that money.....

Temporary assistance should be that a temporary... I don't understand how or why the government let it get SO out of control...They need someone who will get in office and CLEAN IT UP. HOw people abuse the system is beyond me.. but i think its ALSO ridiculous that in WNY when they need to raise more money for welfare its crazy to raise CIGS or alcohol etc..... How about get in thier and CLEAN up the abusers... I can only speak for WNY not the country not the world.... Only me and where i live.

Another consideration, if someone has no degree no qualifications for a good job. Goes to work and brings home lets say $1000 a month (after taxes which is GOOD around here for no d no q)..... Now if the spouse works and needs the car they need to have 2 cars... which is more out in gas and more in insurance.... (not all areas have busese to and fro at the precise times needed for all jobs)..... so what now we are down to what maybe 500$ can you pay for full time day care in your area for 1m on that I know i can't for ONE kid... Here the cheapest i found here is 185$ a week... So your negative what like 300-400$ a month... NOW either that person could file for state aid for daycare for 400$ a month, or the WHOLE day care amount or that person could stay home and get assistance of maybe 200-400$ a month... and raise there own children. Either way you are going to be paying that out in your taxes right...

SO my personal feeling is let the MOM SAH not because they deserve it, not because we owe it to them, but because I am paying either way why not let her raise te child she brought into this world (daycares are over crowded imo around her anyway).... KWIM..... I think anyone would agree if you aren't going to make ends meet no matter working or not working and going to need assistances wouldn't the child better survice with the mother home then stressed because she is basically working for nothing.....KWIM (am i making some sense here LOL)....

I personally think that if we pay taxes we should SEE the benefits.

I like Canada's universal health care. It would eliminate a great deal of "assistance" going to medicaid and medicare...

mysweetpeasWil&Wes replied:

ITA!

mammag replied:
I have again searched this thread to locate anyone stating anything of this nature. If you could, please quote where this was said.

As far as universal health care.... No Thank You! Ever know anyone who had to deal with military health care?

And there are alternatives to both parents working during the day. One could work nights, mom could babysit others, one could work two jobs. Is it the ideal lifestyle? No, but plenty of people have to do it to make ends meet. I babysit in my home to help contribute to the family funds. I'd prefer to not have to but that's how it is.

BTW, my name is Jeanie.

luvmykids replied:
ITA, Dee Dee. It is painful!

And I don't remember who said it, but why bother trying to do better for yourself or family if after taxes you come out the same or worse off than someone else?

I do not think it is at all fair to pay higher taxes because you're in a higher income bracket, no someone can't live on the same percentage of $25k vs $100k but why does that mean the $100k people should pay more?

We are business owners and on paper look great but the actual take home after our personal taxes and the business taxes change the actual cash flow a great deal. And we don't by any means "shelter" or hide anything!!!!

FWIW many business owners pay double the tax, we get taxed on our personal salaries each week, and then our salaries are added back to the companies overall profit and that lump sum is taxed AGAIN.

I've said before I have no problem paying taxes and appreciate mostly what taxes are used for, it would just be nice to not be penalized for having a higher income than someone down the street, and it would be nice to be able to qualify for the programs my taxes fund when we need them just like everyone else. I think I might go put some money under the mattress now.

ashtonsmama replied:

Hmmmmmm....good idea, Monica.

coasterqueen replied:
Totally agree on universal healthcare. OMG, no comment.

As far as alternatives ITA as well and I know MANY people around me that both parents work and share a car or carpool. Dh and I have had to share a car many many times and you can make it work, we did. I didn't even have a car for several years that I worked full-time. I relied on others to get a ride, mainly a co-worker and I also tried to at that time live close to areas where I'd work.

Kaitlin'smom replied: my only comment for now is can we also do away with the marriage penitality tax, sure the 'reduced' it but come on its NOT right. taxes frustrate the heck out of me, I pay out of every check I get and for YEARS I still had to pay until I had Kait that was the first year I ever got anything back. Oh and dont get me started on earned income credit

~~*Missi*~~ replied:
No but i do know alot of canadians that if there child is sick go to the doctor on Sundays etc.. I know they don't have to call and ask the Nurse on call at the insurance company like here in WNY to see if they are SICK enough to go to the hospital.
like erin threw her back out today and called and is going to a chiropracter TODAY. here i would have to wait AT LEAST a few days now if I wasn't a new patient new patient OMG i am looking at least a month..
Same with any specialist.

Sabrina had a double ear infection... fever of a 105 according to MY insurance company (blue cross blue shield) I had to call and get permission to take her to the hospital, then had to call to INFORM my her doctor. Then we found out it was a double infection with a perforated right ear drum THEY wanted US to wait 4 weeks to get her into a ENT.. cause we were new patients... I finally got a compassionate nurse who got her in the next day ONLY because I told them I would just call around till I found a ENT that could get us in ASAP cause a perforated ear drum can in rare cases cause deafness etc...

Erin (lexismama) Alexis got sick sat night. Sun she woke up and took her to the doctor on anitbotics and on her way to better.....
Erin is only ONE person i know from cananda living close to the border. And I know from what i see they have it better when it comes to medical care IMO its easier... military not saying anything about it, don't know. ... I am saying having health care like the canadians. Walk in clinics that aren't all in low income areas, making it more about the patients then the bottom line. Making it more about health care then $$.....

Yes the mother could work nights BUT what if there aren't night jobs offered. I know that nursing offers nights but flopping whoppers here don't they close at 12... taco bell being the latest at 2am.. Now what if the father is already working I know my husbands jobs hours now are 9-5 and appts in the evenings cause when are you home for him to sell insurance LOL, at Burlington they were 9-5 or 1-10... Malls close at 9 here, a bar if your lucky is the latest at 4am....I can see your view point but its not always going to work because. The fathers job may not be willing to work with his hours. Places are hiring certain hours and either you are available or not. Its not fair cause jobs don't make it anymore. I know when I was going thru the motions I put down that I could only work 6pm (when my mom could babysit chris and sabrina) til 1am (cause I have to still get up with sabrina in the am) i didn't get any calls cause my "hours" weren't flexible.... Again only in WNY..
I know here there are laws that you have to follow to have kids in your care. Not saying babysitting but actual running a "home daycare".. Babysitting to me is a occassional thing not a regualr thing..
So that would be all good if you met the qualifications (lexismama could help me here she just opened a home daycare in canada but similar laws ) cause I know that if I was goin to put my child in day care down the line HOME day care would be my first choice but it better be state regulated and follow the laws so that IF for some God forsaken something happens to a child, that child is covered along with your behind ya know....Alll people aren't sue happy but when it comes to your child I think a different side of you comes out and what you may have done if it was u is different if its your kid. So home daycares need protection for the owner and operater and well as the kids they provide for...

ohh and a little side note do you know in WNY if you tell them you are going to "take in kids" to get off welfare they will tell you Sorry but that isn't a job that will get you off. LOL i am dead serious... When chris broke his leg and i was having to go thru all this crap my sister offered to let me take in the two kids she watches and pay me.... now this would have been about 600$ a month more then we were getting in cash assitance and almost more then both combined. The worker told me dear you need a real job being a child care provider isn't a job to get you off welfare. I had letters stating hte amount and all. TALK about MESSED UP government LOL....... i was floored

mammag replied:
You mean you can't just come off of welfare when you decide to??? Am I reading that right?

My2Beauties replied: Well I could argue for universal health care, but that isn't what this topic is about

The whole welfare thing is what p's me off to no end. OK, Missi, you're right about some people working and they just work to end up paying daycare etc...but you know what, you can't better yourself unless you start somewhere. I honestly think that it's a waste of my money when someone collects even $50 a month in welfare because they SAH (now your situation with your DH is totally different and you guys deserved any help you could get, but that is what welfare was designed for), I'm completely against Jane Doe thinking that because of her religious beliefs or what have you that because her and her DH cannot make it on one income that they be entitled to assistance - sorry! It's not fair to me when my tax money should go to better schools, roads, medicaid (for the people who are actually sick and disabled or in a tight spot) etc... and not because someone wants to SAH and be a mom. I know it's our right to SAH but suck it up if it's tight. If it is, then get out and work! I worked from the time I was 15 years old, I started out at making $5 an hour working at K-Mart, I took my skills I learned in high school and got a job making $10 an hour, I took the skills I learned at that job, took an opportunity and got a better job, meanwhile starting college (using loans might I add that I am paying back now), while this was going on, I got pregnant, had a child, got married, so here I am 23 years old, newborn baby, 40 hours a week at work, plsu going to school part time - did I moan and cry NOPE! Did I collect a welfare check every month because we were still broke even with both of us working - NOPE I sucked it up and did what I had to do. I bettered myself and now I have doubled my salary within the past 5 years (probably 3-4 years actually). Oh and don't let me get on my DH - talk about horrible horrible childhood, mother gambled away all their money, lost 3 homes because of her, gew up on the streets practically, mother lived on welfare and foodstamps because she wanted to SAH with her kids (yeah and go to BINGO everyday ) and blow even more money that her husband earned. She drained his savings. OMG they have nothing. He was in gangs, got shot at, had a child at 17, dropped out of school to get a job and care for his child, became a roofer, backbreaking hard work, got his GED, improved his skills, showed that he was an asset to his company (roofing) became a foreman, making more money, he was the boss of his crew, oh but then another opportunity came along, the railroad, he applied, we took out $5000 loan for him to go to school and get certified, but guess what he doubled his salary in less than a year, will quadruple it when he becomes an engineer in about 5 years! Not bad for a highschool dropout with a kid at 17 years old who had a laundry list of family issues - hmmm...I'd say we're doing pretty good for ourselves and we both came from absolutely NOTHING, I didn't have furniture in my house when I was growing up we were so poor and my parents never got assistance - EVER! So I have no sympathy for people who abuse the system as you can tell. Your situtation Missi was definitely a situation I sympathize with and believe that you put my money to good use at a time that you needed it. I mean come on, get up, get out and get something.

Sorry I'm off my now.

As far as the tax thing goes, DH paid in nearly 5000 last year and I paid in over $1000, we both had tuition expenses as well so the only reason we got money back was beacuse of those credits. I did our taxes again without the credits just to see what we would have gotten back (preparing myself for next year) NOTHING - we would had to have paid Grrr... oh and we had to pay state $350 this year too

I understand why we have taxes, but I'm with Jeanne I'm tired of it going to stupid idiotic things - like um...this war! Sorry I'll shut up now!

~~*Missi*~~ replied: i didn't take it that way, i took it as they didn't feel child care providing was "enough" money for them to place you off it. OK now reading it yeah i guess you could take it that way.....
I know when we called to get off it, they ONLY took us off cash assistance and reduced our food stamps. I have called like three times to get off so they are slow to put you on it but even slower to take you off it....


(how do I quote from another post????)

mammag replied:
If it was from another post I believe you have to go in and select the text you want to quote and then use the quote button above (where you change font color etc). Then you can just make a note of who said it.

My2Beauties replied: I just want to add because my post was really heated that by no means am I saying that people who SAH are lazy or that they should get out and work - if they can make it on one income with just DH working then by all means do it, I would love to be able to SAH with Hanna and let DH make all the money, but right now that isn't an option for us. So the only people I"m getting on are those that choose to SAH only because they want to, can't afford it, and collect welfare! I wanted to make sure I was clear on that.

coasterqueen replied:
I'm confused. You have to call to get off assitance, be approved to get off? You can't just say, I don't want assistance anymore stop helping me?

My2Beauties replied:
I think that is how it works Karen! You have to go to your social worker and go through all kinds of crap, it's a pain in the rear to get off of welfare from what I hear too.

ashtonsmama replied: Wasn't this supposed to be about taxes?!?



I think these kinds of debates aren't getting us much of anywhere if you ask me. I think we can agree to disagree, but once they start to escalate, I think it's time to just call it quits.

JMHO.

A&A'smommy replied:
or you can just hit the quote button on top of the post

mammag replied:
I was thinking she meant from another thread.

luvbug00 replied: Unfortunately welfare is payed out of our tax money.
My hard earned doller is going tward it and as much of a fuss that has been made about it I see no reason to avoid it. Life isn't always fair.
some people think it's unfair for people to use welfare to get what they think they want or need (like more children). Some people think it is fair for them to use it for thease wants and needs because the people who are recieving welfare put in their taxes too. (assuming at one point in thier lives.)
But where do we draw the line between how much is too much to take and do some people "really" need it or they taking advantage of it's exsitance?
We as a society need to discuss this and share our HONEST opinions no matter how harsh they can somtimes sound. Without communication we have nothing.

ilovemybaby replied:
This is in reply to the last post...

Well I'm sorry but you can talk about welfare all you want without saying things like that. If you're gonna get on me then be prepared for it to come back to you. The fact is that the ZPG post never asked about anyones opinion on welfare and someone whos name I won't mention was the one who brought it up and don't try and tell me it wasn't a stab at SAHMs on welfare and a dare for a debate to start. The funny thing is that most of the people making these comments are Moderators because they know they can get away with it.
You are entitled to your opinion but I'm sick and tired of hearing it. We've all heard it once and that's as much as we need to. If you all really want to debate welfare or SAHMs on welfare go and do it somewhere else or in PM.

I doubt this thread will be locked or deleted though.

Honestly, some of the people here are extremely judgemental and a few members have left recently because of this. And most of you are well aware of the reasons why they left. Certain members that think they are the perfect parent and person, and like to question others parenting skills and call them bad mothers. Yeah you know.
This is more like some club really... pretty catty and pathetic if you ask me.

If you want to delete my post go ahead ... I am expecting it anyway. But I had to say that. Oh and I'm sure you'll delete my membership and ban my IP address too.
Go on thinking you are all better than those who accept welfare and bash us all you want. But we are not all the lazy bludgers you think we are. Oh and one more thing... if you knew someone who couldn't afford kids but accidentally fell pregnant would you expect them to have an abortion instead of having the child just so they don't have to get welfare?

I've had enough of this cr*p.

Cece00 replied:
To get off assistance, all you have to do is call & sign out your paperwork. They can send it to you in the mail, you can go in, and depending on the type of assistance, they can just cancel it over the phone. Stopping welfare is NOT hard if its really what you want to do.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Actually myself as a moderator or not would like to say that personal attacks by a mod or anyone else is not tolerated.

We were discussing things perfectly fine.. If you a GENERAL opionion then we are all free to express it.

Nothing wrong with a healthy happy debate.

ilovemybaby replied: This thread was about taxes not welfare.

So you are saying it's ok to call someone lazy or a bludger? Because that is basically what is being said.

I thought the reason the first thread was deleted was because it had gotten out of hand but if this one hasn't been locked and this is still up for debate then ......

for those of you who are complaining about SAHMs on welfare... are you going to be complaining when my kids are paying taxes and you are on a pension?

Boys r us replied: Actually until this point, this debate was going just fine! It is fine for things to stray..that is what happens in real life conversations and therefore it's bound to happen in online conversations as well. No one here is taking this personal.It's okay for things to get heated, just no personal attacks.

ilovemybaby replied:
I am not just doing it for that reason and it's pretty obvious you were talking about me so why bother witholding my username?
I'm also doing it because I used to work in a daycare centre and did NOT like it. I would NOT send my child to one. They are all the same.
I also did it because if I had continued working I would only bring home an extra $60-190 a week and it wasn't worth it to me. We actually have less money with me being a SAHM than if I was to continue working. Welfare is really not that much. When I first left work we were only getting $40 a fortnight. What exactly is that meant to pay for or buy?
And when something breaks down in our house or the car breaks down WE have to find the money for it. Welfare doesn't hand out that money. I don't expect them to either. But it irks me to read someone complain about a $400 car cost when I just found out yesterday that we may have to pay about $1000-2000 for a leak under my husbands car ... worse case scenario. Where is that money going to come from? We don't know. And the area we live in... well if I took photos you'd be shocked. We have gang members and drug dealers living in our street. We have had our garage set on fire by someone. We were in bed at the time and it could have set our whole house on fire because the garage (when it was still there) was basically touching the deck at the front of the house. We have to put up with horrible neighbours. I've been smacked on the arm by one of our neighbours, had threats made that they would get the Black Power gang to come to our house and bash us up... the list goes on.
We're not living in a fancy house somewhere with tons of money to spend on whatever we wish. No.

Cece00 replied:
We have social security here, not pensions.

Collecting social security after you have worked hard for nearly 50 years and collecting welfare so you can stay at home are apples and oranges, by the way. Also, a lot people save for retirement instead of counting on social security.

ilovemybaby replied: Actually boysrus in the ZPG post they were taking offense to my opinions. And I was NOT attacking anyone. I stated that many times. I even apologized in advance incase anyone did take my opinions the wrong way. Obviously not enough these days...

TANNER'S MOM replied: I am sorry but what does some one else's 400.00 car cost have anything to do with welfare???

I am sorry that your car repair is more costly...but come on..talk about off topic!

Cece00 replied:
As a mother who has used daycare, has worked in daycare, and who is now a SAHM....I really, REALLY have to disagree with this statement. Its simply not true.

ilovemybaby replied: So what do you think I should do (or should I say expect) then... put Abby into daycare and go back to school so I can get qualified so I can get a good enough job that is going to pay high enough that I won't need any help at all? Because even on what I earned in my job (before I left to be a SAHM) it was not enough. And we would have still qualified for welfare then.

I'm not judging anyone here for their decisions and I don't expect to get judged for mine and yes that is EXACTLY what you are all doing.

TANNER'S MOM replied: I am now going to lock this thread. To me it is very sad that we can't have an adult debate about things in our soceity. It is not a personal attack against anyone.

Every country is different and how they raise there families are different. Each country is different. I am not even sure we are debating the same welfare or taxation system.