Assassination Plot - Obama

AlexsPajamaMama wrote: ATF Reports Foiling Obama Assassination Plot
Neo-Nazis Targeted By Feds

POSTED: 4:30 pm EDT October 27, 2008
UPDATED: 7:10 pm EDT October 27, 2008


WASHINGTON -- The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Monday it has broken up a plot to assassinate Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and shoot or decapitate 102 black people in a Tennessee killing spree.

In court records unsealed Monday, agents said they disrupted plans to rob a gun store and target an unnamed but predominantly African-American high school by two neo-Nazi skinheads.

Jim Cavanaugh, special agent in charge of the Nashville ATF field office, said the two men planned to shoot 88 black people and decapitate another 14. The numbers 88 and 14 are symbolic in the white supremacist community.

The men also sought to go on a national killing spree, with Obama as its final target, Cavanaugh told The Associated Press.

ATF said that Daniel Cowart, 20, of Bells, Tenn., and Paul Schlesselman, 18, of West Helena, Ark., were charged on Oct. 24 with the illegal possession of a sawed-off shotgun, conspiracy to rob a federal firearms licensee, and making threats against a major candidate for the office of president.

"The allegations set forth in this Criminal Complaint are serious and will be treated as such," Lawrence J. Laurenzi, Acting United States Attorney for the Western District of Tennessee said in a statement. "The public can rest assured that federal, state, and local law enforcement are diligently working together to investigate and prosecute the alleged activity."

According to the complaint Cowart and Schlesselman met via the Internet about one month ago through a mutual friend. Both claim to have very strong beliefs regarding "white power" and "skinhead" philosophy, the complaint said. They began discussing going on a "killing spree."

ATF said that Cowart allegedly traveled from Tennessee to Arkansas on Oct. 20 to pick up Schlesselman in order to carry out their plan, and that they said they were willing to die in its execution.

Cowart and Schlesselman were arrested on Oct. 22 by the Crockett County Sheriff's Office in Tennessee.

"Once we arrested the defendants and suspected they had violated federal law, we immediately contacted federal authorities, " said Sheriff Troy Klyce. "The Sheriff's Department is committed to keeping Crockett County a safe place for our all of citizens."

Cowart and Schlesselman are scheduled for a detention hearing on Oct. 30 in Memphis, Tenn.

luvmykids replied: Wow, I was watching some documentary on the KKK the other night and one of the experts said he fully expected something like this, if not from them from another group.

Frankly, I doubt that will be the last we hear of something like this, which disgusts me

gr33n3y3z replied: Its just wrong in so many ways he is human like any other person
Sad world we live in to stoop that low

boyohboyohboy replied: I totally agree that this is beyond just wrong. I am not sure that I am an obama supporter but this is just so horrible. I hope his children dont have to hear these things. I cant imagine as a mom how I would feel now about my husband being in danger and they must worry about their dgts..
its sad that there are these types of people in the world so full of hate.
what would something like this have solved?

lisar replied: This is wrong on so many levels but I have to say that I kinda expected it.

jem0622 replied: I read about it. Absolute insanity. And just like pp...just plain wrong. I have talked to other ppl who have said they would expect the serious haters to come out and attempt something.

Crystalina replied: I watched a video on YouTube the other night that was taken of people living only about 80 miles from me (Akron) and the way they talked about Obama just made me want to vomit. Whether it's Obama or Joe Schmoe down the road, that is no way to treat anyone and to think that people like this walk among us is just appalling. It's disgusting and I can't believe that people still think like this. The air should be taken from them. If you don't like people that are different from you (for whatever reason) then keep it to yourself. There's no need to for them to spew their hatred like that. And then to try and act on it?

HuskerMom replied: That's horrible. Why are some people so ignorant and stupid? That's got to be very scary for his family.

A&A'smommy replied: I don't even honestly know what to say about this except that I do believe it wont be the last we hear of this!!

MoonMama replied:
My thoughts exactly!

This kind of hatred and evil is just so beyond me and it makes me sick!

Calimama replied: People like that are ignorant, psycho jerks. It's okay.. karma will pay them a visit.

MommyToAshley replied: It's disgusting that there are people that think like this. We can't change the way people think, but we can do our best to educate and teach our own children. And, the people (I use that term lightly) that planned such a horrific thing should get the harshest sentence available. I think it's unfortunate that people like this will make the news as they don't represent the majority of us.

jcc64 replied: I really wish they would not make a big story of these idiots. The best thing they could do is marginalize them and keep them in the dark recesses where they live and should continue to live. Providing publicity only gives them what they're seeking- a platform for their hatred.
I have to say, the McCain /Palin campaign has been treading on very thin ice lately with some of the hateful fervor being tolerated at some of their rallies, where chants of "Kill him," "terrorist," and other ridiculous muslim-inspired racist nonsense have been increasing. More subtle, but no less insidious, are the robocalls orchestrated by the RNC directly accusing Obama of being a terrorist, and all the crap floating around the internet, some of which has been discussed here before.
In no way am I implying that McCain is a racist, b/c I don't believe that to be true. Palin, I'm not so sure--but the campaigns have a responsibility to the larger good, and appealing to that lowest of low roads, well, it speaks volumes about character, imo.

my2monkeyboys replied: Oh, I agree. It's just disturbing on so many levels. I wouldn't mind if they'd just bury them somewhere and forget about them... they really don't deserve any better.

ETA: As for what's going on at rallies, I have heard that some of that isn't even true, that it's made up stories floating around like a lot of other junk. I don't think either McCain or Palin is racist, if I did I certainly wouldn't vote for them.

Danalana replied:
I agree! Of course McCain and Palin are going to be pegged as racist because Obama is black....and that would be the last straw. Now, of course I don't know either of them, so I can't say definitively whether or not they are racist. But I'm betting no. It doesn't matter, though, because I knew it would eventually be an accusation.
I hate racism, but I see it everywhere. We love the Mexican restaurant in our town, but you never see black people in there...they don't like the Mexicans and vice versa. Spanish people don't particularly like Mexicans and vice versa. Everybody knows about the black/white thing, but even that works both ways. It's just sad that there are people still carrying on the hate of Adolf Hitler...not that it originated with him, but he is (to me) the epitome of evil.

My2Beauties replied: This is so sad to still see this type of racist behavior in this day and age..it saddens me!

A&A'smommy replied:
ahhh yes you see that here a lot too you NEVER see a black person in either one of our mexican resturaunts that sad thing about it is the owners of one are white and the mexicans are some of nicest people you will ever meet

Crystalina replied:
Not to keep this going but I have seen several videos of McCain telling people that remarks like that are not necessary. I've heard him also say that Obama is NOT a terrorist nor is he a Muslim and I really do appreciate him telling people the truth. There was one video when he handed the microphone to a lady and she said she did not want Obama in office because he was a Muslim and he was associated with terrorists and McCain promptly took the mic from her in mid-sentence and said that no, that was not the truth and it shouldn't even be implied.

Now Palin on the other hand, I've seen many of her speeches where people yell these nasty things and they hold up signs that say 'Kill Obama', 'Hang Him' and other such nonsense and she says nothing. On one hand I would say that not acknowledging the signs would be a good thing but how does she not comment on so many of them in her face??? And the chanting....it's obvious she hears it and she just keeps on smiling all the while. I think after a few rallies like that she would make some sort of statement saying that it was uncalled for. With that smile on her face I'm sure nobody realizes that she does not approve of that. That is if she does not approve of that.

redchief replied: That racism is alive and well in good ol' America should come as no surprise when they're still burning churches and painting KKK on the streets in front of the homes of African-American citizens. I'm not even a little bit surprised that some Neo-Nazi nutbags had sinister plans. Those people just aren't stable. Fortunately they're not very smart either.

What I also find unfortunate is the misinformation here. It's true the McCain-Palin camp and the GOP continue to question Obama's relationship with Bill Ayers, but NONE call him a terrorist. In fact, McCain and Palin have both publicly stated that they do not believe Obama agrees with Ayers or any terrorist organization.

I think his brush off of the issue regarding his relationship with a homegrown terrorist is weak at best. It's a fact that Bill Ayers was instrumental in Obama's run for Illinois Senate. Obama doesn't even try to deny it. Obama says the man's past is insignificant because he was bombing buildings in the 70's while Obama was but a child. That simply doesn't work for me.

If that had been the only time Obama was associated with an extremist, then perhaps I could look at it differently, but this is the second major example of a cozy relationship that Obama has/had with an extremist during his presidential bid. Funny how everyone has all but forgotten the close relationship Obama had with Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright despite his anti-white views. I fear Barack Obama. I fear a Barack Obama presidency. I truly believe the man is on one of history's greatest ego trips, and much of this country is so enamored of him and attracted by his obvious magnetism that they can't see it.

Of course people can change, and I do hope Obama has or will, because as I see it, he will be our next president. If he continues to allow his head to swell at its current rate, we're in for a heck of a next four years.

MommyToAshley replied:
I don't mean to get off-topic, but it really is not off-topic if you think McCain & Palin have contributed to the hatred in any form. Just like Ed, I also think it is ok to question some of the associations that Obama has. I don't think that by questioning the association that anyone is calling him a terrorist. But, I can see where it is ok to ask for him to clarify his position on some of the views of the more radical people he has been associated with. I think the hatred displayed by Rev. Wright is just as dispicable as the hatred of the white supremist.

I have seen McCain correct people on more than one occasion that Obama is not a terrorist or a Muslim. I have seen the coverage about the rallies and what has been chanted, and it should have been stopped. I agree. I also think McCain should have focused more on his policies and not so much on what Obama has done wrong. However, on the same respect, I have seen some pretty nasty things chanted about Palin at democratic rallies and some shirts with sayings that I care not to repeat and I did not see Biden nor Obama stop and correct their supporters either. But, the media is so biased that you did not hear about the democratic rallies. That is a completely different story as I think the media (print and television) are so wrapped up in making history that they are biased to the point that it has affected the election.

I know you think I am coming from a partisan view point, but I am trying to be objective. I actually like Obama and think he has a very charismatic personality, which is important in a leader. There are actually things that I like and don't like about each candidate. But, I just wish all this crap -- racism, mud-slinging, media biased crap was put aside and we could hear what the candidates really stood for. I know it will never happen -- just look at the ads themselves. There's about 5% truth in every ad that has been twisted and distorted (by BOTH candidates), where's the accountability there?

So, I guess my point is that I think every election is the same. There is mud slinging, and I don't think that this presidential election is any different because of Obama's race or Palin's gender. However, I think that there is more read into some of the words used by the candidates based on the background and experiences of the person listening to these comments. We get into what people think the candidate has "implied" and then that's where we get into the issues that deal with racism. So, do I think McCain should have taken the high road? Absolutely. But, I think the same goes for Obama. And, I think the media should report the facts... all the facts... and keep their opinion out of it. If there is anyone that has contributed to enticing violence and hatred, I think it is the media. I don't know why they report on how many voters of a certain gender or race voted for a particular candidate? Why is that even relevant, except to be divisive.

jcc64 replied:

Ed, anyone who runs for president has to have an ego of epic proportions- that charge can be leveled at anyone. What specifically about Obama makes him more of an egomaniac than McCain, or any other politician at that level?
And while no one can see into the future with any degree of accuracy, we can certainly see into the past, and what's been done to this country under the disastrous, self-serving policies of the past administration will probably take a generation to undo, if it's even possible. Ask your kids when they finally get the bill for all of Bush's tax cuts for his wealthy friends. Ask someone like my mother's best friend who has cancer but can't get health coverage b/c of a pre-existing condition.
Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright have no relevancy to what's happened to my 401K or my job. Neither does the anti-semetic pastor McCain associated with, or Sarah Palin's separtist husband. They have no bearing on how I'm going to finance the rest of my own education or that of my children. If people on the right want to keep talking about that, that's their prerogative. The numbers seem to indicate it's not resonating with most people.
I thought I made my point clearly in my post, but by the tenor of a few responses, apparently I didn't. There's obviously a whole spectrum of racism, from the people who are unabashedly proud of their racist impulses, to people who won't admit it, even to themselves. What I tried to say, and obviously failed to, was that although the McCain campaign may not be openly courting racists, they are not actively discouraging them either, and that's a dangerous fire to stoke, as evidenced by the lunatics mentioned in the OP.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am not sure if you read my entire post, as it was lengthy. I agreed with you that the comments should have been stopped. McCain did on some occasions address the issue. But, there were comments that were equally as horrific said about Palin in rallies and Obama did not speak up. The media just did not focus on it as they did with the McCain rallies. Rev Wright is relevant if you are talking about openly courting racism. Why did it take Obama so long to come out and denounce the comments made by his long time friend and mentor. Some say Obama only did so because his poll numbers were dropping and he was hesitant because he would lose the African American vote. I want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but becasue he was so heistant to speak out against the racist comments, he was contributing to the hatred just as McCain was for not speaking out sooner. Both are guilty... I don't think you can point fingers at only one side. As candidates for the President of the United States, both had an obligation to make a stand and denounce those ideas and both failed in my opinion. There are lunatics on both sides, and it doesn't make them any more just because of what side they stand on.

jcc64 replied:

Who can get in another person's head and know why they do things. I'm sure the "some" who said he only denounced Wright as an opportunistic stunt are against his candidacy and would never be satisfied with his response. Rev. Wright is not running for president, Obama is, and I fail to see any evidence whatsoever that he hates or wants to destroy white people, as seems to be the implication.
Finally, racism in all of its forms is abhorrant, but the real damage is done when the majority class institutionalizes it.

MommyToAshley replied:
In the same sense, the supporters at the rallies are not running for President, McCain is. Obama had an obligation to stand up and say he did not agree with the ideas of those at his rallies and those of Rev. Wright. McCain had an obligation to stand up and say he does not agree with the ideas of those at his rallies as well. I don't see where it matters who's the majority class. Gender descrimation and racism are wrong. Period. Regardless of who it is. Until everyone comes to acknowledge that, we will never as a Country put those ideas to rest.

mammag replied:
In what way are we institutionalizing it rght now? Like through affirmative action where whites are discriminated against?

It is no different when it comes from the majority. However it is often considered more "acceptable" or "warranted" when coming from black people. They can get away with much more than white people could. There is a big double standard.

If candidates had to make statements about what every supporter says that is wrong, we would never get around to the real issues, like protecting this country from socialist ideas. However, when you have a consistant pattern of associating with dispicable people (Wright, Ayers, Khalidi, etc.) one begins to wonder about your true character.

luvmykids replied:
I've never thought that way in regards to Obama, but considering the length of his relationship with the Rev, it's funny to me that one minute he was claiming him as his pastor and later, denouncing him because of the vile racism he spewed. It's not like it was a shock to Obama.

I'm just trying to explain why people have an issue with that, it's not because the Rev is running for President, but because Obama had a long standing relationship with him that he at one point openly talked about to "back up" his Christian beliefs.

jcc64 replied: I'm checking out on this one, guys. We're just chasing our tails, at this point.

cameragirl21 replied: wow, I missed out on all this? Jeanne, don't go, I may need you for a lifeline, lol.
Just have to say that some years back when I was still in school I did a report on suicide for a religious studies class and chose to interview 10 different clergymen to get their religion's perspectives on suicide instead of book research because I thought my way would be much more interesting. Anywho, I met a Baptist pastor who was the principal of a Christian elementary school. Mind you, I was there to get the Bapist perspective on suicide but he insisted on asking me about my religion and I told him honestly because I saw no reason not to. He proceeded to warn me about he fire and brimstone I was surely in for and even went as far as to say the devil is in the room with us, in his office in a church just because, I, a Jew was present. I could have been insulted but I was laughing too hard at the presposterousness of what he said. Then he proceeded to try to convert me every which way he could think of and I shot him down everytime, in fact, I suspect that if anyone was going to convert by the end of the day (had I stayed beyond the wretched 3 hours he kept me there) it would have been him, not me. So then I told him that if someone wants to convert to my religion the rabbi would be obliged to try to talk him/her out of it 3 times before allowing the conversion to go forward to test that person's resolve and committment. So the pastor said, "well, if you wanted to convert I'd be obliged to talk you out of it too." To which I replied, "what are you talking about?! You've spent the last hour trying to talk me into it after I told you repeatedly that I am not even remotely interested." I tried hard not to laugh as I watched him pick his jaw up off the floor.
The last thing I said to him was, "you, know, if a fire suddenly broke out in this school I'd risk my life to save these kids here even though you're raising them to hate me just because I'm a Jew." To which he replied, "well, I'd risk my life to try to save them too." At which point I said, "well, I would hope so, you're the principal of this school and they're in you're care while I have no obligation to them, yet I'd still risk my life to save them." He invited me to come back and talk to him some more but I politely declined, for obvious reasons.
I think it would be fair to say he is just as hateful as Rev. Wright, just in other, perhaps less "in your face" ways. I think when we put everything into perspective, we can see that while Rev Wright really is a POS, so are many others who influence people everyday. I told one of the moms whose son went to that Christian school (because I went there to fulfill my Baptist requirement on her recommendation) and I only told her because she asked how it went. She then promptly removed her son from that school because she was strong and smart enough to know that pastor was wrong...and hopefully so is Obama. I don't think it's fair to assume that every parent of every child who attends that school is as hateful as the pastor and I think we should extend the same courtesy to Obama.
As for the comments about racism and affirmative action, let me just say that I believe some people really need to walk in the shoes of a black person or a homosexual or someone outside the majority for just a week to perhaps understand what can't be understood by those who don't live it and/or see it everyday. I don't get the benefit of affirmative action because the minority of which I'm a member is stereotypically considered to be successful so it's assumed we never need any extra help. I don't think affirmative action is perfect but it is perfectly fair as it tries to make us all as equal as possible, which is just what our forefathers wanted--liberty and justice for all. In order for that to be achieved, sometimes the majority has to bend over backwards to accomodate the minority, that's just life in a free and equal society.
Edited for a typo.

MommyToAshley replied: I think your story/example about the Baptist Pastor is nothing like the Rev. Wright. You are talking about kids that are in a classroom being taught by an authority figure. The kids do not know right from wrong.. they are there to learn. In this case, it is the responsibiltiy of the parent to know what is going on in that classroom. Obama was an adult choosing to be in a situation where racist comments were made by someone that is supposed to be a spiritual advisor. He hesitated to denounce the comments because Rev Wright was a long time friend and in his words "mentor". I feel Obama and McCain do have an obligation to denounce any racists slurs, at the very least they need to say they don't agree with them.

I also still strongly disagree with you that racism should be permitted just because a group is in the minority. That is dangerous thinking and will only continue to add fire to the hatred. Racism and descrimination should not be tolerated on any level by anyone. Period.

cameragirl21 replied: I never said that racism should be permitted, Dee Dee, unless you mean that affirmative action is racism. I don't see it that way. I think affirmative action exists to enable those who were born with less opportunity around them to be equal to those who were born with more opportunity. I see it as similar to wearing high heels if you're short so that you can be as tall as the others--it's a simplistic example, to be sure but they are both artificial measures designed to achieve the same concept. I don't see it as reverse racism because I think there is enough opportunity for everyone, except maybe now in this crappy economy where everyone seems to be struggling somewhat.
As for the pastor...most of those children's parents, I imagine, go there for church...how can they not know what he is? He revealed himself to me within 60 seconds of my being there so how can a longstanding member of that church not have at least some inkling? He even told me that he "tolerates" and I use that word verbatim, his Catholic secretary even though she is just a Catholic. How can people who see him regularly not see him for what he is? Christian schools are expensive, tuitionwise and I imagine the people who can afford them would be articulate and intelligent enough to see what is right in front of them, no?
I want to add that I am no fan of Wright and am not an Obama supporter by nature, I wanted Clinton to win but I do see the Obama/Biden team as the lesser of two evils and I do think there should be some sense of fairness and reason when we dole out criticism. For instance, I find Palin's opinions to be barf-worthy but I was the first to say that Newsweek, which is, in all fairness, a very liberal newsmagazine, was wrong to publish a cover shot of her without retouching, to me that's just fighting dirty and it has no place in a civilized society. If they hate her that much then don't put her on their cover, it's just that simple.

MommyToAshley replied: I'm not sure how we went from racism to affirmitive action. But, yes, in a sense affirmitive action is descrimination based on race. Race should not play a factor in getting a job -- either way. Period. Just as I believe race should not be a determining factor in who you vote for -- either way. Period. The fact is that in these decisions, race should not be a factor. If race is used as the determining factor, it doesn't matter if the decision is made in favor of or against the person who is in the minority -- It's still wrong.

cameragirl21 replied: I only mentioned affirmative action because I thought that was what you were referring to when you said I was condoning racism.
Ok, so here's the question--how would you enable and/or encourage less advantaged people to compete? For instance, when I was applying to medical school I was keenly aware that had I been black or Native American that I would have been able to get in with lower grades and lower MCAT scores. I was a bit envious but didn't feel it was unfair because I realize that the idea is to encourage people to embrace opportunity even if their parents didn't, kwim?
So what would you think is fair? Would you say everyone should be equal regardless of their background/upbringing? Would you agree that the child of a drug dealer or even, say, a housekeeper would have fewer inclinations and opportunities to attend medical school or compete with someone like you or me for a job?
I'm just asking, not goading or baiting, I'm seriously curious how those who oppose affirmative action would address this issue. The problem, as I see it is that we are not truly born equal. I wasn't born with the same opportunity that Tori Spelling was born with and my housekeeper's kids weren't born with the same opportunity that I was born with so how do we try to make things more equal? If we do nothing then it's almost a certainty that my housekeeper's kids will grow up to be housekeepers themselves or something along those lines, no?

mammag replied: So there are only disadvantaged people in the minority community? What about all the white children who live in th same areas as minorities? What about the child whose parents both died and they grew up in foster homes? I could give so many examples of disadvantage. It is completely reverse discrimination because it takes into account only race. If it is supposed help the disadvantaged then it should be about looking at each case individually.

I don't think there is anything in affirmative action that covers housekeepers children, only minority children. I don't know if you realize, but there are also housekeepers who are white.

MommyToAshley replied: I am going to repeat something I wrote almost word for word to a friend here in PM.

I come from a pretty modest background. I don't come from a priveledge background, my father was enlisted in the service and my Mom stayed home with 5 kids. I had to work during high school to buy my own clothes and pay for my own lunches. I worked my way through college. I worked 80 hours per week, and I made more money than my parents, while going to college full time. I understand what it is to work for what you have and want. I used to resent not being "given" a college education like some of my minority friends, but yet in retrospect I think they were the ones that were done a disservice. I learned the value of hard work and the sense of accomplishment and reward that goes along with that. That's something I want to pass along to my daughter.

That is just a snippit from a longer conversation that was more about tax policy. But, I think this part of it applies here too. I think everyone deserves equal opportunity. We should have equal opportunity for education, health care, and to achieve success. But, by taking from some and giving to others... that's not equal opportunity. Equal opportunity means equal access. Scholarships should be based on grades and performance or other qualitive criteria, not the color of your skin. If kids are in a situation where their parents are drug dealers and therefore they are not in an environment to learn, then maybe we should look at improving their environment... not giving them some other form of compensation that they learn is based solely on the color of their skin. (Not all drug dealers are minorities either) Wouldn't there be more of a sense of accomplishment if they gained those same rewards through their efforts. I think I would be just as insulted to find out I got a job because of my race, as I would be to find out I didn't get it because of my race.

stella6979 replied:
That about sums it up for me.

mammag replied: Well said Dee Dee!

Here's my story, my parents delivered the little bags of advertisements you get on your mailbox or doorstep. They raised 4 kids in a very tiny 3 bed, 1 bath home. We also worked from a young age, we all had to get paper routes and used that to buy things like shampoo, tooth brushes, whatever... many times we were using dish soap as shampoo and fabric softener as conditioner. All of our grades suffered because many times we would have to stay home and help out with their work because of one thing or another.

My parents had no way to pay for our college, bad credit, and thus encouraged us to "get 2 jobs and try to move up". There was no scholarship there for me because my grades were less than great due to working early in the morning, and many nights. Wed was the only night we had no work.

I'm sure there are many, many more of us underpriviledged white kids who could have used a "helping hand". However, each person makes choices in their lives. You can choose to do better for yourself regardless of your family or neighborhood. My oldest sister has done quite well.

The way to help the disadvantaged is through private community based programs that uplift not reverse discrimination programs that cause further resentments.

cameragirl21 replied: 80 hours per week?! darn, that's more than 11 hours per day/7 days a week...what did you do and when did you study? Did you graduate on time? Not that it's any of my business, I'm just blown away...I worked maybe 10 hours a week and I thought that was hard, jeez.
Ok, so let me understand--would you be in favor of affirmative action if it were based on opportunity or lack thereof as opposed to race? For example, if affirmative action existed for anyone of any race or religion as long as they were from let's say a home that was x% below poverty level? I am asking because I am curious if you are against the handout and/or favor period or are you just against it because it only takes race into account?
Here's the thing--there are many private scholarship programs based on the desires of the philanthropists who started them. For instance, I am Jewish, born in the former USSR and came here with my family as a toddler. So let's suppose I am super rich and I decide to start a scholarship fund for Jewish kids who emigrated from the former Soviet Union or from some dictatorship, like Cuba for example, or China. That would be my prerogative, no? And the same could be done by some wealthy WASP...s/he could start a scholarship for underprivileged white kids, that would be his prerogative. Now I'm fully aware that he would be chided (and possibly worse) for singling out white kids in a way that I probably wouldn't be for singling out disadvantaged Jewish kids but I guess what I'm getting at is scholarship money is often coming from private sources who can earmark the money for whomever they want. It just so happens that there are more minority people who overcame all, became rich and decided to give back to their own "kind" per se, then there are majority people who did the same, kwim? I mean more per capita, btw, not more in numbers.
Anyway, this is getting more complicated than I meant it to. The bottom line as I see it is that the majority does lose out in certain things, no doubt, but they get the benefit of being in the majority and being among their peers most of the time. I think we all gain and lose depending on various factors. I think to say that affirmative action is reverse racism is a bit superficial because the notion does not take into account the fact that minorities have been disadvantaged, often by their majority peers and that often the reason that affirmative action is thought to be a necessity enough that it exists, kwim?

TheOaf66 replied:

here we go again

cameragirl21 replied: I should add, and I'm sure that what I'm about to say isn't going to too popular here but the way I see it, affirmative action is the price we pay for being an inherently racist society. We as whites (and just because I'm Jewish does not make me any less white) have mistreated minorities starting from way before the slavery days, going back to what we did to Native Americans here and way before that...Europe has one of the most violent and war filled histories of any civilization, let's not kid ourselves. That said, we are now paying the price for that by having to sometimes go sit in the back of the bus if you kwim and truth be told, and I'm sure some won't like what I'm about to say, but truth be told, I'm not so sure that we don't totally deserve it.
As long as the Imuses of this world keep saying things of that sort and expecting to get away with it, and yes, I know he was fired but I'm sure he didn't expect that to happen when he said what he said so maybe he shouldn't have said it. Anyway, as long as the Imuses of this world continue to talk that way then there can be no complaints when a black person seeks solace in someone like Jeremiah Wright. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and affirmative action is just that reaction, if you kwim.
JMO of course and flame away, just thought I'd say like I see it.

mammag replied: Do you get that it is wrong from either side? In what other area are people punished as a whole because of a few? That is ridiculous! There was and still is violent acts against others by people other than white people. Should all muslims be punished because of the radical muslims? Should all Africans be punished for the violence by war lords?

When does it end? As far as I know, no one is still alive who did anything to Native Americans. No one is still alive who had slaves here in America.

My2Beauties replied: She isn't saying anyone who owned slaves is still alive she's saying we're paying for what our ancestors have done...period. I'm not going to get into this discussion because you can't change anyone's mind unless they live and breath it themselves. That being said...I dated a black guy for 7 years in high school, he was my high school sweetheart and I loved him to death. I got to see, first hand, what it was like to be a black person in this society that we live in. You would not even begin to BELIEVE the things that people had to say, the comments we listened to, the difference in the way he would be treated versus myself in certain establishments, the way he was looked upon because of what a person thought he may/may not represent. He was the most religious person I've ever met in my life, he was extremely nice, proper, sweet, giving, loyal and a true momma's boy, he'd go to the end of the earth and back for his family and he'd give anyone the shirt off of his back...but you know what....he was constantly looked upon as being this gangsta piece of trash that wasn't going to get anywhere in life by people, i could tell from the looks, the comments, the gasps when they saw us together, I was even treated differently when I was with him. So....please before you think affirmative action isn't warranted...you have NEVER EVER lived the life of a minority person in America on a day to day basis and believe me they are not given the same opportunities we are...I see it first hand. They have to fight MUCH MUCH harder to get what most white people have.

TheOaf66 replied:

MommyToAshley replied:
I was the General Manager at a casual dining restaurant. Anyone that has ever worked in the industry will know that 12-15 hour days and 6 day weeks are the norm for GM's. The good news is that they paid me a car allowance and eventually paid for all my business related classes. I had to limit my classes to 9-12 credit hours per quarter. I could take more credit hours if I enrolled in "college without walls" (virtual courses), but they didn't offer that for all courses. I still managed to meet and date DH during this time. It seemed like we were out doing something most weekends with friends or by our ourselves, but I would just get up at 4 am the next morning and head to work. I managed to get straight A's too... except for a B in Effective Communicatin (speech class - LOL). Looking back now, I don't know how I did it. I must not have gone to sleep for those 5 years. DH and I were talking about this the other day. I fall asleep at a movie at 9pm now.... I guess I am making up for lost time. But, I don't mean to make it sound like I had it so rough. There are lots of peope that do the same thing every day. And, the last two years of college, I took a job with less hours (but longer commute) and I was only working 40 hours a week with an added 10 hours of driving.

TheOaf66 replied: I know how you feel, my last year of college I commuted 50 min one way to school all day, came home, changed and then worked 40hrs per week at a restaurant. I spent my whole college carreer working full time and school full time. I still had to borrow from Uncle Sam because I couldn't get any grants or anything. I can totally relate with ya.

jcc64 replied:

Nicely said, Lea Ann.

redchief replied: "What hurts you helps me." That seems to be the theme for both sides, and frankly, I'm disgusted with it. There are plenty of valid examples on both sides of the political fence in which either candidate should have stepped in strongly and squashed, or at least denounced, the garbage spewing from the fringes. Neither get brownie points for this in my book. The real villains here are the media. Jeanne, I totally agree that these fringe groups deserve no recognition. Unfortunately the media is using these fringe stories to help elect their candidate, and after all, they decide what is newsworthy.

We're so quick to blame the government for outsourcing and the loss of jobs, but that's not fair either. They are doing what we demanded of them. We demand that we pay as little for goods and services as possible. Domestic labor rules and collective bargaining agreements are contrary to that thought process. Look at the "Made in..." tag on your purchased articles. Then point the finger in the mirror where it belongs. We're to blame for that. WE ARE.

Finally, forgive me for taking so long to reply, but I was busy watching our Phillies win the World Series!!!!

TheOaf66 replied: very well said on all counts Ed and congrats to the Phillies but pardon me if I can't get to excited since they squashed my Brewers right outta the playoffs.

Danalana replied: Ed, that was very well said
The only thing I don't agree with is that McCain probably can't overcome the deficit. It ain't over til it's over. ANYTHING can happen.
I will make it clear that I am not racist in the least. I have NO problem with a black president. But Obama has always made me feel sick to my stomach (I'm being serious...literally SICK). I feel a knot everytime I think of him as president. Even before he was running for president and was just a guest on Oprah, I just didn't trust him.
Anyway, my point was that it's not over!

MommyToAshley replied:
I'm sorry that you and your boyfriend were treated that way. It's disgusting and it's wrong. I think the answer is in educating and teaching our children. I do see a difference in our kid's generation. I don't even think Ashley noticed that people had different colored skin until one day in kindergarten she said to me, "Mommy, why don't I have brown skin like my friend K'mani?" We talked about how some people have brown skin, some people have blue eyes, some people have red hair ... everyone is a little different and that's part of what makes us unique. But, we're all people with feelings and we don't have to be the same to like each other. She said, "ya, I know. But I still think brown skin is pretty" I haven't seen one instance where a person in her class or a friend of her's is treated differently. Maybe I am an optimist, but I really do believe their generation will be the one to change the world. However, I don't think that treating one differently (whether it is beneficial or harmful) based on their race is the way to change the world. Doing so will only harbor the feelings of unfairness which I think fuels the racism on all sides. Maybe I would feel differently if I had walked in your boyfriends shoes, I do know that past experiences do change how you see things. But, I know I would be offended to find out that I got a job, a scholarship, a raise, or promotion JUST because I was white or a female.... just as much as I would be disgusted if I didn't get a job for that reason. It's not a perfect world, there is still racism and descrimination. We have come a long way since the Rosa Parks days, but we still have a long way to go. I just don't think excusing racism or descrimination for any reason (because a group is in the minority) is acceptable on any level. Racism is racism whether it is by the minority group or the majority group. Equal means equal opportunity, equal access... not special priveledges, special treatment, or harrassment and being belittled. If we all want to be equal, we need to treat each other as equals.

TheOaf66 replied:
BINGO

jcc64 replied:

Ok, Ed, I'm coming back at you. We Americans consume 25% of the world's oil supply. If we deplete every possible domestic source, I believe we can produce 4%. You do the math. Go ahead and drill every last drop, and then in 5 yrs or so, tell me where it's gonna come from then.

I almost spit my coffee all over the monitor when you laid the blame for the economic crisis at the feet of poor people. Yes, lots of unqualified, high credit risk poor people sought, received, and defaulted on loans, and yes, those types of programs were the work of Democrats who heinously tried to make the "American Dream" available to the folks at the bottom of the ladder. Shame on them for trying to help those who most need it. They should be left in the gutter where they belong and then the economy would be humming along smoothly.
And I'm sure you'll tell me that all those benevolent banks doing the lending did so out of the goodness of their hearts, right? Not because they profited mightily from preditory lending practices, not because they were all making such ridiculous profits moving all of this bad credit around from bank to bank and selling our crap to other countries? Not because they got used to running their game all over the market, collecting obscene bonuses and compensation packages while flipping off their shareholders? Gimme a break, Ed.

And what my mother's uninsurable friend with cancer has to do with either candidate is the lack of protection for patients with pre-existing conditions in McCain's health plan.

cameragirl21 replied: I'm curious to know how many people here lost an opportunity due to affirmative action...meaning, you lost a job or scholarship because that slot was held for someone of a different race or something to that effect?
I suspect that affirmative action doesn't really affect anyone here, it's the idea of it that's bothersome and again, I believe it's because we don't want to admit that we are a racist society by nature. If we weren't there'd be no need for affirmatiave action.
And equal access is a great utopian idea except that it doesn't exist in reality. How can a person who just 40 years ago was forced to drink from a separate drinking fountain get equal access today? There are some schools in the South that today want separate proms based on race. We are what we are and yes, we all have to pay the price for that.
Sorry but this is a very touchy subject for me as I prefer to work with biracial kids for modeling and I've heard some really obnoxious things said about them when I've shown their pictures to people and tbh, it really hurts my feelings for them. My sweet Deandra, the girl in my siggy with the scorpion was called an "ugly mongrel" by someone and I honestly cried my eyes out when that person said that about her, I mean, she's just a little girl for God's sake.
Affirmative action is the price we pay for having scum like that among us, period. And I am not at all convinced that they are the "few" as I think there are a lot more of those than we would like to believe.

jcc64 replied: Well, the whole bi-racial thing is a constant presence in our lives, though for the most part, it's in the background. My kids will catch heat mainly while playing sports- racists slurs and taunts, said just out of earshot of the refs, of course. I've taught my kids that anyone who traffics in that sort of behavior is to be dismissed for the uneducated moron that he/she is, and for the most part, they can roll with it.

jcc64 replied: Check out this article by Bill Kristol- pretty interesting in light of this conversation we've been having:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/opinion/...&em&oref=slogin

redchief replied: Ahh, but I call foul. I asked for specifics.

TheOaf66 replied: Being a former loan officer I saw it coming. When there was the big boom of Home Equity Lines of Credit with zero interest for a year or two people were signing up left and right. I turned down many loans based solely on Debt to Equity Ratio.

Yeah my numbers weren't the greatest but in my time there I had 2 loans default and one of them was one that my manager pushed through.

The fault goes all around...The Demos for pushing these programs more and more, the Banks for not having the common sense to say no it will end badly and for persuading people to sign when they knew they wouldn't be able to pay, and finally the people who didn't figure in weather or not they could afford what they were getting.

As for the oil drilling, if we drill some of our own resources then maybe we can take a turn in the right direction and release the stranglehold the Middle East has on us a bit...having it and not using it is wasteful in a sense.