Anyone who has lost a child - or anyone for that matter...LONG...Sorry

Crystalina wrote: If you lost a child do you include that child when people ask how many children you have?

The reason I ask is because me and my two sisters were out (one lost a daughter). We were out at the Holiday in just having a few beers when a random person walked up and started chatting (like they do ) and our kids were mentioned and Jennifer (my sister) went around the table saying I have 2 kids, she has 7 kids and Beckie has a daughter. Beckie flipped out saying "No Jennifer, I have 2 children or have you FORGOTTEN?!!"

So that set the tone for the next hour, put a damper on the night and we all went home.

Jennifer was devastated and apologized to Beckie a zillion times and before it was over we were all in tears. I told Beckie that I understand why Jennifer said what she said. Beckie can't understand why Olivia would be excluded though. Olivia has been gone two years this Aug. but I do not bring her up to random people because then it usually leads into why she's not here. If I meet someone more then a few times and it's brought up then I will mention it but I really don't throw her out there like that and one of the main reasons is because I didn't want to hurt my sister every time is was said. Another BIG reason is that I just learned that my niece always mentions her sister when people ask if she has one. That would be 100% fine if I didn't also know that Beckie is the one who says "Don't forget you have a sister." I think Lilli should mention Olivia when she wants to and on her own and NOT because her mom is telling her to mention her.
Another thing that really bothers me is that Beckie still buys toys for Olivia. She's obviously having issues (as we've known for awhile) but she stopped going to counseling with Lilli shortly after they started.
I'm really worried about Lilli's sanity in all this. She's only 5. We can't say anything to Beckie because when we do she gets defensive and will not see any of us or let us see Lilli.

Well, I guess this had more then one subject in it.

MommyToAshley replied: I think it is a personal choice whether or not you mention a child that has passed. I don't mention Joshua to a total stranger, but I know many that will say something like "I have 4 children and 1 in Heaven".

I know when I lost Joshua, I felt angry because I felt like people were avoiding talking about him and took it as they just wanted to forget about him. Looking back now, I know that is not the case and that most people just didn't know what to say. But everything affects us differently when we are grieving. There is no rule that says you should be done grieving by a certain amount of time. I say cut your sister some slack, and there's no harm in counting Olivia as her child... because she IS still her child. The best thing you could do is support her right now. This is the hardest thing she will ever deal with, and there is no pain that could hurt more .... it may take 2 years, it may take 10 years to complete the grieving process. But, to be honest, I think it is something you never really get over, just something you learn to live with.

I don't see anything wrong with Lilli mentioning her sister. Ashley knows that she has a brother in Heaven. I don't think she fully understands, but she knows that he went to Heaven when he was born.

As for the gifts...Some people choose to celebrate birthdays and honor their angels in other ways. Again, I see nothing wrong with that if it brings them a little comfort.

lovemy2 replied: I don't think anyone ever COMPLETES the grieving process when they lose a loved one - especially a CHILD - as time goes on you learn to cope with it in different ways - there is no right or wrong way to grieve or remember a lossed loved one. I would however do what you can as a family to gently guide her and her remaining daughter back to counseling......but again - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink -

luvmykids replied: Boy thats tough , and sad Grief does some strange things to people and I'm sure Beckie feels like Dee Dee mentioned, like everyone is trying to pretend Olivia was never here or something so I do understand where she's coming from but, I probably would have said the same thing as your other sister So I can see both sides, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

As for Lilli, I think it's totally natural for her mom to want her to remember Olivia, but I also think it might be really tough for her to grasp, she was only three when Olivia passed away, right? I don't really know how to word what I'm trying to say....I understand and think it's wonderful that Beckie wants to keep her memory alive for Lilli but at the same time I don't think it's fair to expect Lilli to live like she has a sibling who is alive, kwim? The thing about buying toys for Olivia etc just seems like it would really confuse Lilli.

Anyway, not having lost a child I really can't say but nobody grieves the same, some people never get over a loss like that but I do wish she was still in counseling for the simple fact that Lilli is so young and I don't think it could hurt any to learn some coping mechanisms for either of them

lisar replied:
I agree. I think everyone griefs in diffrent ways. So what might help one person might seem odd to another. KWIM? I think if it helps your sister then by all means let her do it. I have never lost a child so I cant say how I would react. I am sorry for your sister and the entire family. Its always so sad to hear about things like that.

Crystalina replied:
I understand she's still grieving and will never be done grieving. We are all grieving for her. She's also the first person in our immediate family to pass away (that I can remember). What worries me is how she's handling it when it comes to Lilli. I think if she doesn't want counseling then that is her choice but I can't understand why she doesn't give Lilli the chance to have counseling. And it's not just the buying of toys for Olivia, she also keeps the car seat there and still keeps her highchair pushed up to the table at meals. I think that's terribly sad for Lilli to have to deal with. Beckie has also never buried her so there is no place for the family to grieve. I told her that if she did that that may help her a bit but she won't do it.

I'm not saying she shouldn't grieve but I am saying that she should not make Lilli live in Olivia's shadow. I know almost two years is still very very soon but I hate watching Lilli deal with this the way she's being made to.

jcc64 replied: Wow, that's pretty intense and complicated. I'd say that I agree with everything Dee Dee said, but I admit, I do think your sister needs some more intensive counseling if she's still buying toys and keeping the car seat and high chair in the middle of things. I'm sorry, did you say the baby's been gone 2 years? Forgive me, I don't recall the exact circumstances of your niece's death, but it sounds as if she died as an infant or toddler?
I know that must be the most excruciating experience a person can ever endure, but I agree that your sister's grief has the potential to adversely affect her other child if it continues unabated. A surviving child can very often feel overshadowed by the memory of a dead sibling. I knew a kid in that circumstance when I was growing up- and she used to say how hard it was to compete with her dead sister for her mother's affection.
It's a tough situation. I don't really have any words of wisdom. I'm just sorry.

mckayleesmom replied:
Sorry for asking this but...she hasn't burried her yet? Did she have her cremated or what? I guess I don't understand.

Crystalina replied:
This is what I'm saying Jeanne. She thinks she can handle her grief on her own and I don't think she can.

Olivia was a month shy of 2 yrs old. She was the one who passed from ecoli. I posted here about it.

Crystalina replied:
Sorry, yes she was cremated. I think maybe if she would just bury her (which we've all said we would help pay for) that would help her even if in the slightest way but she won't do it.

bawoodsmall replied: I am going to first and foremost say that the loss of a child is unbearable. I dont know what and how I would act. I do think however that life must go on. It must be very confusing for your niece to continue to talk about a person whom is not with us physically anymore. It sounds to me like your sister does still need some counseling imo. I dont think I would spill my guts about my child in heaven to people I am not close with. My memories would only be shared with the special people. I dont think your sister said anything wrong. She apologized to your sis when she realized it upset her. The toy thing is kinda odd to me if it is all the time and not on special occasions. It sounds like she is still acting like she is here and hasnt actually dealt with the fact that she isnt and isnt coming back.

Once again these are my opinions of the matter. I havent had to deal with the death of a child and honestly dont know how I would act. I hope I would continue to live my life.

gr33n3y3z replied: If its medical I say I have 4 children and one tubal pregnancy

mummy2girls replied: This subject is a little touchy for me...

I lost jordan 8 years ago and its still hard at times. for the first few years when people stopped talking about him it upset me because it made me feel they didnt care about him or remember him. But looking back just like dee dee said that wasnt the case. more of a protection for me. But because she only lost her 2 years ago teh pain is stioll fresh. i do feel she need counsilling because she has a deep depression or loss if she is still including the carseat and high chair. The toys I still do on his birthday and christmas and bring to his grave. It does get you when you dont expect it like this year i almost had a breakdown at christmas.

Its hard but you do need to let her grieve the way she is suggest counsilling again...

(((HUGS)))

My2Beauties replied: I remember your post about her Crystalina. It was so sad. I could not and do not want to imagine how I would feel if I lost one of my children, I would be devestated and it would be nearly impossible for me to carry on my life as I normally would. Life must go on, but it would never be the same for me. It's totally unnatural for a parent to bury their child. I couldn't imagine oh it makes me tear up thinking about it. It does sound like your sister may need some type of counseling to deal with her pain, I think buying the toys and the highchair at mealtime is probably making things worse for her. I'm not saying she needs to forget about her, but those things are an every single day reminder that she is no longer with them. Remembering her on special occassions and anniversary (date of death, b'day etc.) Wow, I know your other sister (who made the comment) has to feel awful.

I guess if it were me, I would tell people that I had 2 children in her case, I would just say one is no longer with us and I'd leave it at that. I'd want to let people know she existed, it would make me feel better if I talked about her I guess in conversations such as that, that would be my personal choice.