About Al-Zarqawi

C&K*s Mommie wrote: Did you hear that someone gave the details on where he could be spotted for $10,000 bucks?? Which is alot of money for an Iraqi. I heard it on The O'Reilly Factor last night, and a guest (on the show) was saying that the informant who gave the tip away may also receive the $25million bounty that was on Al-Zarqawi's head.

Zarqawi also was apparently still alive following the bombings yesterday, and died shortly after our troops arrived.

Now for Bin Laden's head...and his gang of thugs.
FBI's MOST WANTED TERRORISTS

holley79 replied: DH called me at work to tell me. For 10 grand I'd give him up also.

BAC'sMom replied: Sounds like one heck of a neighborhood watch to me

TheOaf66 replied: yep, if they pony up the dough for this one, I would think someone would come forward w/ BIn Laden

mammag replied: Yeah, I hope they give him the millions. I agree, it might encourage someone to turn in Bin Laden. Wouldn't THAT be a glorious day!!!!

Ashlynn's Mommy replied:
If they made the reward higher say maybe 25,000 then someone would deffinately turn him in.

mammag replied:
Well the bounty is for $25mill.

MyLuvBugs replied: not for nothin', but.....a man is dead. I guess I just don't see why we should all be celebrating it. I know he wasn't all that nice of a person and that he'd done tons of horrible things to others, but he was still a person and was basically murdered for money. JMO but I find it sad that the human race finds any celebration in killing each other.

mammag replied:
Have you read the extent of what a "not nice person" he was? How many people he killed, beheaded, etc.?

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no feelings of remorse for him. He was one of the most evil of men and he is dead.......and yes, I celebrate that fact. One less monster out there killing innocent people is definitely a reason to celebrate, imo. If that makes me immoral.........well, I'll live with that I suppose. I'm at peace with myself.

mckayleesmom replied: I would have turned him in for free.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Not all are celebrating the fact that he was killed. He was a killer, and he was killed. In neither case, do I agree with killing. Some (here on the board) have made it clear that while we are not happy that another life was taken, it was his time to go, and it was ironic that the same people that he hated (the Western world) were the same ones who were appointed to take him out.

If some choose to celebrate that one other evil person is out of the world, so be it. And if not, then so be it. I just believe that it was his time to go, he was a human nonetheless, but I believe we all have an appointed time to leave earth.

In my beliefs, his payback will come this was a small payback from us (humans).

kimberley replied:
i agree. an eye for an eye and he got off easy. i am sure there are many sighs of relief across the globe today that such a horrifyingly evil person without a conscience can no longer terrorize anyone. i too am at peace with myself.

TheOaf66 replied: i don't like that fact that a person like that even existed, I am not celebrating the fact that a person was killed, but I am happy that the influence of this person is now eliminated and it brings a little relief to me, but I do agree that someone like that has to go and yes I am glad someone like that is gone.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: Way to go USA military!and big Thanks to the person who turned him in!!!

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
Kinda like when he was on tape celebrating and making fun of the 911 calls from the towers on September 11? I am glad that he is dead! I wish they would have gotten him sooner and I am looking forward to the day when BinLaden's picture is right there on the TV screen too! These people would kill you and me and our children in a split second and so YES I am celebrating the fact that we got him before he could get us again!

salmndr007 replied: I don't want to make a huge debate about all of this, but it sounds kind of fishy. First of all, he was still alive after 2 500lb bombs were dropped on the building, secondly that his face and everything were still intact and his body wasn't blown to bits. I mean think about it...what happens when an IED goes off? Look at the person afterwards...now picture what would happen if 2...TWO 500lb bombs went off...even if he was outside, that would still do a lot of damage to a body. Secondly, it is hard to believe that no one would shoot him if he were still alive...with all of the things he has done, it seems like someone would just snap and pull the trigger. I don't know...there is still a lot of unanswered questions that seem like they should be easy answers.

C&K*s Mommie replied: There are alot of questions (I even thought the same after seeing his pic & seeing the video of the bombs being dropped) and I am sure we will never know the true answers...but one thing is for certain~~ a killer was killed.

As for his being alive, from the reports he was barely alive. He mumbled something unrecognizable, and faded off.

Sadly, among all of it was that another child was killed in the bombing.

mammag replied: First off, to me it wouldn't bother me none if they did shoot him.....I don't however believe that to be the case.

Second, like they did with Sadam's sons, they may have had to reconstruct his face so they could show the pictures.

Third, he was in a basement.

MyLuvBugs replied:
I never said you were immoral. good grief! It just saddens me that murder/killing whether for "good" or "bad" is celebrated in anyway with no remorse for it. Yes he was a bad person, but I'm not comfortable enjoying or revelling in a persons death no matter how much I may dislike them or disagree with what they've done. That's just MY opinion, and NO I'm not trying to start a debate. Geeze!

jcc64 replied: I'm with Erika on this one. I am certainly glad that he will no longer have the ability to use his considerable influence and power to incite hateful, immoral acts upon both our soldiers but also countless innocents caught in the crossfire. But let's not kid ourselves about the longevity of the relief. He's now become a martyr, and you have to acknowledge that there are countless more new recruits dying (literally and figuratively) to take up where he left off. But to me, a death is nothing to celebrate- and while what he chose to do with his life was unarguable repugnant, I cannot celebrate the death of another human being, period. That would then make me no different than the people celebrating in the streets after 9/11.

gr33n3y3z replied: i agree. an eye for an eye and he got off easy

I couldnt have said it any better

But where this bad egg came from their are alot more like him thats the sad part
I say just keep reeling them in one way or the other

mammag replied:
Except the fact that there is a HUGE difference between a targeted, unprovoked attack on thousands of innocent people and a targeted, provoked attack on a murdering animal (as I refuse to even consider this beast a person). Not even comparable! I agree with my husband her who likens him to a rabid animal that needs to be put down. Yes, he was born as an innocent person like every other but in the end would have continued to kill hundreds without blinking an eye.

Ashlynn's Mommy replied:
Sorry, that's what I meant.

redchief replied: Debate is good. I'm always ready to throw in on a good one.



I agree that the death of a human being is nothing to celebrate. Fortunately Al-Zarqawi forfeited any claim he had to humanity when he decided it was all right to kill innocents and use them as shields to keep his sorry hide alive.

MyLuvBugs replied:
WOW Jeanne! Do you realize we actually agree on something!?!? lol I never thought it'd happen. But thank you for putting so eliquently (per usual) what I was trying to express.

And I've been thinking about this over the last hour or so....I guess my biggest problem is that the American government has declared it's self the protector of mankind. Which is great! Go us! And we believe in democracy and that everyone has the right to a fair trial, correct? So, why is it that Saddam (an equally bad person) gets captured and a trial, and this man does not? Why did we have to bomb a site (where innocents were killed) just to basically assasinate one person?

A lot of you have said in the past regarding other issues that "Violence begets violence", and Jeanne is totally correct that now he's died as a martyr. His buddies now have more vengence in their hearts towards us, and someone else will merely wait for their opportunity to get back at us for his death. So really what has his death solved?

Don't get me wrong. If I was on a jury for his trial I probably would say he gets the death penatly for his crimes, but he didn't get a chance for a trial, or to learn a lesson for his mistakes. We didn't get a chance to get information from him about Al-Quida (sp?) and other terrorist organizations he was involved with. And he's died a hero to his friends. No enlightenment has come of this, No lesson has been learned for this man. He's merely dead. No justice served, only vengence.

PrairieMom replied:
You noticed that too huh? I was thinking the same thing. The building he was in didn't even look like a real "building" it looked more like a mud hut held together by some rebar. I don't guess it really matters, he is still dead.

mammag replied:

Mistakes???? Is that what we are calling his attracities? Mistakes? There is nothing in this world that would have made him "learn from his mistakes". He was evil....there is no reasoning or learning with evil.

I'm completely dumbfounded by some of the reactions here.....just dumbfounded!

my2monkeyboys replied: mammag, I couldn't have said it better myself.

jcc64 replied: You know what? We've commited plenty of our own atrocities in this war. So let's not pat ourselves on the back for being the owners of all that is right and good in this universe. Being American is not synonomous with infallibility. We chose to forsake the high road long ago with Abu Graib and Guantanamo, among other things. We used to be able to legitmately lay claim to defenders of human rights around the world. That is no longer the case, and it makes me sick.
I just spent a few hours doing a report with my 10 yr old about the My Lai massacre during Vietnam, and I'm sure most of you are probably too young to know much about that war. Briefly, a platoon of American soldiers mowed down over 500 unarmed villagers- many of them women, children, and BABIES. Babies. The pictures were nauseauting. It's absolutely unforgiveable. And it felt eerily similiar to Haditha. ALOT of things about that war are eerily similiar- and those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. Iraqi children have been killed in this war as well. Not deliberately this time, but dead nonetheless. One child dead is one too many. I will say once again that to me, there better be a darn good reason for entering into this sort of reality- and turning an Islamic country whose mores we don't understand into a reluctant democracy isn't a good enough one for me.
But I am digressing. The OT was about Zarqawi- a real murderous dirtbag of the highest order. However, the ability to so flippantly reduce his humanity to "a rabid dog that needs to be put down" is the exact same behavior that allows THEM to dismiss our own humanity and behead someone on television. They don't recognize us as human. I have no control over their behavior or their thoughts, or anyone else's for that matter. But I can control my own. And I refuse to allow myself to forget that the people on "the other side" are human beings, whether I can understand their mentality or not. That's not a "gift" to them, it's a gift to myself.

redchief replied:
Jeanie, I agree with you 100%. I'm not, however, dumbfounded by any of the reactions I've read. In fact, I'm encouraged by them. It is the proof and pudding of the (mostly) free society we live in that we can have a debate like this. It is freedom in the raw, and I love it! I think some of the ideas are misguided and much of that has to do with the insulation we have from the reality of the Middle East.

We walk down our streets with baby buggies in tow instead of firearms. We celebrate our religions without fear that another faith finds us to be infidels and unworthy of life. We don't get on the bus and worry that it will be the target of a politcal and religious example. When we get the mail from our mailboxes we hear birds instead of the last IED exploding. We wonder if the early bird is getting the worm instead of whether that car bomb just killed our cousin.

I see attempts to apply the same values to everyday life there that we enjoy here. Would that that could be true. Maybe someday it can be, but not yet. To those who ask if we have a right to subject the world to our will, I say you are mistaken in our intent and mission. By taking the fight to the place where the terrorists come from we are saving countless lives on our own soil. They have said they will attack us and they will not stop until the Great Infidel America bows at the feet of Islam.

I say, "Fine, if it's a fight you want, we'll give it to you, but we'll give it to you on our terms." It is true that Al-Zarqawi will be elevated to martyr in his zealous circle. It is untrue that his followers are endless. Since humanity is finite, no group can be infinite. Those that follow him will lack his intelligence. That only makes them slightly less dangerous, but dangerous all the same. We need to have the will and patience to complete the mission in Iraq and eradicate terrorist zealots where they grow. I don't want to fight them here.

I'm sorry for and pray for the souls of innocents lost in any war. It is a sad truth of war that innocent people suffer. Tens of thousands of Americans are still suffering today due to the cowardly acts of the people we are hunting down in the Mid-East. No one has the right to force their will or ideology on another people against their will. But that is radical Islam's goal. Do we have the right to avenge the deaths of our innocent brothers and sisters who were murdered on 9/11? I think we not only have that right, we also owe them a debt. To forget the mistakes of history will only serve to cause us to make those same mistakes in the future. We must resolve to continue to take the fight to those who would take it to us here. I would rather it didn't happen on our soil.

redchief replied:
Funny, I said almost the same thing about history at the same time you were. I guess we just see history differently. There is no arguing that what happened in My Lai was attrocious. There's also no defending the actions of those soldiers on that day. It is a sad fact of war that women and children die. It is also a fact that none of the players in any war are without blame. When any player in a war does wrong, that player must pay a right and just penalty for that wrongdoing. We don't know what happened in Haditha yet. But just as we now know what happened in My Lai, we shall find out. We must not allow any misdeeds go unpunished. The Guantanamo Bay rhetoric is just that, liberal nonsense. They are prisoners there. Prisons aren't fun. Too bad. What happened in Abu Garib was inexcusable, but no one lost their head, so let's keep that in perspective.

One thing we must not forget while we are having our constitutionally protected debate is this: We are at war. That includes each and every one of us (that also includes you Canadians, British and quite a few other nations BTW). It is our government that went to war; our government, elected by us and charged with protecting our interests at home and abroad. Whether you agree with it or not, you and I are at war with a ferocious insurgency in Iraq. That insurgency has it's roots in a zealous Islamic faith where they believe the Prophet Mohammad has ordered them to kill us or convert us. There is no middle ground with these people. They were a threat to us on 9/11, and remain so today.

amynicole21 replied: Firstly, I thought Bush declared the war over almost a year ago Secondly, I think it is a mistake to think that anyone is less than human because they share a different belief system than us. I am not sad that this man is dead, but I don't think his murder has solved anything. Perhaps his followers are finite - I just don't see this "war" ending in any of our or our children's lifetimes.

jcc64 replied:

C'mon, Ed, you're too smart a guy to dismiss these things so flippantly. Guantanamo Bay is not "liberal nonsense"- it is a real place filled with people who have yet to be charged with anything. NO ONE, outside of a select few in the gov't, even knows for what crimes they are being held. I'm certain there are many people there who have hate in their hearts and purely evil intentions toward us. I am also certain there are some innocent, powerless people who got swept up in the chaos following 9/11 in Afghanistan and have done nothing wrong. We will never know. They will never have their day in court. This might mean nothing to you, but if you were the innocent guy locked in a sweltering cage indefinitely with no contact with your family you might feel differently. Prisoners deserve to be punished, but innocents don't, and we'll never know the difference without some sort of a day in court. No justice for one is no justice for all, Ed. I'm certain you will reply that these rights only apply to American citizens. I believe we agreed internationally to show some sort of fairness to SUSPECTED war prisoners through the Geneva Convention. Even John McCain has asserted that if we are abusive to POW's, it jeopardizes our own soldiers. Once again, our credibility as defenders of freedom is compromised. This is one of the main reasons much of the world resents us- they see us as self righteous hypocrites. If you can't find any compassion in your heart for the wrongly accused, then consider the damage it has done to our well polished image as protectors of the free world. And while no one lost their head in Abu Graib, they certainly lost their dignity, and if you were the guy stripped naked and pissed on, or sexually assaulted, I think it would be a big deal to you.
Anyway, before you congratulate us on being able to have this conversation, remind yourself that it is quite possibly being recorded by some low level NSA hack for "security purposes". Freedom of speech..... for now.
And finally, I didn't elect this idiot, and I'm horrified by how the decisions he's made are damaging and endangering our country for many many years to come. I completely disagree with your assessment that there are a finite number of religious freaks wanting to kill us. I saw a bumpersticker recently that said, "We are making enemies faster than we can kill them." That about sums it up for me.

redchief replied:

I take it personally when people call our duly elected leader an idiot. I did vote for President Bush, and I'm not sorry I did given the alternatives. Further, I think that statement is extremely un-American, but you definitely have a right to feel as you do and speak freely. I think history will show that President Bush has done a decent job as president of this country, despite his current poor showing in the polls. We're creating jobs at a faster rate than any president in the last 20 years, the economy is strong, trade deficit is down for the first time in 30 years, and there hasn't been another successful terrorist attack on this country since 9/11. I know I'll never convince those that hate our president to like him, but it wasn't our president that went to war in the middle east, it was America, including the Democratic congressmen and senators. Further, the votes were overwhelming. Despite outrage and misgivings anyone may have, if you're American, you are at war. Like it or not.

mammag replied: FYI......Bill O'Reilly is in Cuba right now visiting Guantanamo Bay. Looks to be interesting coverage for anyone interested in the real conditions over there. It will be on Monday on Fox News.

~~*Missi*~~ replied:
I agree its sad that a live was taken murdered whatever.... he was someones son possible a father husband whatever... yes he was a sick sob... but its still someones child... if your kid turns out to be this way I am sure that you(general) wouldn't want people celebrating his death cause he is a human to say the least.. yes I believe that he should be stop but condoning murdering him condones murdering others.... Yes i realize they are in a different country where things work differently, stealling a hand may be cut. i know isreal does that but still i can't celebrate lose of human life...
didn't it sicken you to see the videos of 9/11 news when the people of thier countries where CHEERING AND PRAISING that we were hit so hard and so many lifes were lost... it did me to see...
yes i am glad he is no longer around to harm others but I can't condone celebrating a humans death...JMHO please that is all it is my honest opionion

MyLuvBugs replied:
Is it really that hard to believe that others would have differing opinions than yourself?

I do understand what you and Ed and some others are saying, but I personally have a differing view (and I'm obviously not the only one). Actually, I do agree with Ed on a lot of things he's said. And it is kinda fun to have a lively debate about world history and what's happening in society. Keeps the brain a pumpin'!

Ed's right that this country was founded on freedom to express one's self (whether it be religiously, voically, politically, etc.) We all are unique and see the world in a different light. Nicole (nix4noles) told me tonight in a PM that she considers differing views are a good learning experience to see all sides of a topic, and i agree with her 100%.

Jeanne and I and whomever else that have a differing view that you are not trying to just sit and argue...well, I guess I can't speak for anyone else , but I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone else on here. Only to point out that I have a differing perspective on the situation at hand.

MyLuvBugs replied:

Not all of us are as "insulated" as you might think. My niece just got back last November from a 2 year sint in Iraq with a National Guard Troop. And I have a cousin that travels back and forth to the Middle East doing Archiological Digs in Iraq, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and another country I can't ever remember the flippin' name of. I talk with them all the time about life over there. I know it's not good and happy happy joy joy. And I thank God everyday that I was born an American. I enjoy learning about others beliefs in other countries and how they live. It makes me appreciate living here that much more (no matter how much I can complain about my life ).

Now, I may not be up with all the political gobbledy-gook and know names of the big leaders secretary's cousin's uncle and such , but I am still entitled to my own thoughts and opinions. Even if they are deemed by some as "misguided".

ashtonsmama replied:

ETA: My quoting errors.

redchief replied:

That statement seems ill contrived when taken out of context. The point was that we can't apply the same expectations of security of self and life expectations in parts of the world where that quality of life simply doesn't exist. Historically that is perhaps the saddest part of this whole discussion. We are talking about an area of the world that has been inhabited by civilization longer than any other globally, but because of the hate and refusal to allow that others can think differently, the area is stagnant and backwards. The culture is rich with human history, but also riddled with atrocious behavior, all in the name of one god or another. How sad, since I don't think any of the dieties the various religions worship would be proud of the low value placed upon human life there.

I reiterate, everyone has a right to express their own opinions. I, too reserve the rigtht to be offended when another's opinion, for lack of a better word, offends me. Paradoxical as it may sound, I even value opinions that offend me as an American. It is how we learn and it is how we formulate and prioritize our opinions. Finally let me be clear on one thing, I despise the death and destruction going on in Iraq, Afganistan, and in other parts of the world where we are fighting our enemies. It is sad that humans, whose only fault is their geography, are being harmed in the crossfire of war. I think every American should value the lives that are being lost in conflict, and be sad for those losses, regardless of nationality. But please don't ask me to feel one iota of regret for the loss of an animal who brutally took the life of a known pacifist reporter, on television, for the singular purpose of striking fear into everyone in his path. I shall not celebrate Al-Zarqawi's death, but I won't mourn it either.

ashtonsmama replied:

ITA with that last comment, I'm not celebrating his death, believe you me, just glad that he's been caught, I know that at least that's one more person that we have been trying to find, and the fact that he's now dead isn't a bad thing, IMO. After losing a dear friend on 9/11, all of this is really close to my heart. My outlook has changed tremendously, and even though I may be not so "up to date" or with it as some of you, I'm of the mind that if someone (like Al-Zarqawi) has planned, or helped, in any terrorist plot to kill ANYONE, be they Christian OR Muslim, they deserve to be killed as well. JMO. I firmly believe that. And I'm no right-winger.

mammag replied:
I guess not, considering the right completely predicted this reaction. Isn't it funny that Guantanomo Bay was brought up and according to O'Reilly, that is the newest spin the Liberals are putting on this thing...........just funny that it was brought up here.....

What I find hard to understand is how this turned into comparing me to someone celebrating on 9/11. Perhaps I should have clarified that I'm not running around the streets shooting a gun in the air in celebration. I'm not sitting here celebrating that a bunch of innocent people are dead. What I did do originally, which turned into a criticism of me celebrating, was post a congratulations to the troops. I guess that is what dumbfounds me.....being compared to terrorists celebrating the death of innocent people, because I am glad a mass murder is dead.

I'm out of time here but wanted to note one other thing.........some one brought up Oklahoma city bombing, darn right it was an act of terrorism. And guess what? He's dead now too. It was done a bit differently because he wasn't of the caliber (as far as connections he had, not the crime he committed) and the get was easier. This was also pre 9/11. I'm not sure what this comment was related to because we were discussing one group, one man. I don't think we have at all singled out one race, religion, or region. We are attacking terrorism from all angles, including apprehending terrorists in Canada recently.

C&K*s Mommie replied: It will not. We are too far in to pull out now. Since the Shiites, Sunnis, Iraqi's, etc.. know no better than the lives that they have been living for decades, at times when I hear a story from a soldier telling of unappreciation some have over there for our presence being in their country, I wish we could pull out, and call it a day. But for every story that I have heard of one bad apple, there are countless other good stories that are not headline makers, or front page news. Stories of "free" people (free only as they know freedom).

Ashlynn's Mommy replied: I would give up any one of those heartless, soulless people (if you want to call them that!) in a heartbeat. I'm celebrating his death. It's one last person this country has to worry about. They killed innocent people, and children in the twin towers. They did not care!! They did not care that people had to jump out of windows to their death. They did not care that people said goodbye to their families so they could go to work, only to never return home again. I hope they get the rest of those b!@#$%^&!! That's my opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MyLuvBugs replied:
Oh Jeanie! I wish you wouldn't take this so personally. This debate isn't centered around you personally sweetie. It's just a discussion about our feeling and beliefs about the situation in general. Nothing said here is meant directly toward one member or another. At least I would hope not.

MyLuvBugs replied:
ITA with you Nicole. And my heart goes out to those that know we're trying to help and are being patient waiting for the violence to end.

DH and I were talking about this last night, and he mentioned a lot of Ed said about the areas rich history and backwards ways, and how it's all b/c others opinons and ideas aren't accepted. And we started talking about what would help to mend the situation and actually make a difference besides more killing. And we both had quotes come to our minds:

"Hatred is born in the hearts of men."
"Terrorism is the product of hatred."

Thus, one can logically deduct that Terrorism is also born in the heart of men (human kind), correct? But instead of erradicating the entire human race to stop hatred/terrorism from growing in ones heart, why not teach each other how to forgive, how to be open minded, how to listen and learn from others, etc.?? Basically how to co-exist in peace. ......wow do I ever sound like a hippy. But it does make sense to me.

No matter what path is chosen, the end results will never be instanteous. It will take time, effort, and a lot of patience.

mammag replied:
Don't worry, I'm not taking it personally. I see it for what it is.....liberal tactics to try and make it look as though those of us who are glad he is dead as bad as the people celebrating 9/11. It would take a lot more than a political debate to hurt me personally. I listen to political stuff enough to have heard most of what is being said here and to expect it. I say ME because I don't want to speak for anyone else. Since I am one of the ones "celebrating" the victory....I'm one being compared.

Anyway, don't worry about me getting my feelings hurt....it would take a lot.....well, maybe if you said I was ugly or I have a big nose or something.

I love a good debate!

mammag replied:

That would be lovely if it had any chance of actually working. The problem is, you can't sit and reason with someone who is willing to strap a bomb to their chest and die just to kill you. You can't reason with the unreasonable.

The other thing to remember is that we are not dealing with a particular country and their army...that would make it a lot easier to have talks and try for a peaceful resolution. We are dealing here with basically a bunch of thugs bent on causing destruction to anyone not bowing down to their radical islamic views.

We also must remember the beginning of the conflicts in the middle east. It goes much further than some may realize. The conflict between the Muslim and Israeli people began when Abraham had an illegitimate child (Ishmael) and then had a legitmate child (Isaac). God gave the Promised Land to Isaac and blessed Ishmael with a "Great Nation". Now both lay claim to this Promised Land and so the conflict continues. Makes you wonder......would the world be a more peaceful place if Abraham could have kept it in his pants??

kimberley replied:
you almost made me choke! LOL

I just wanted to thank all the posters in this thread for the history lesson and for keeping it all in perspective. Jeanne, Ed, Erika, Jeannie, and the others... keep up the good work

redchief replied:
LOL

That's funny. And maybe truer than we all think.

redchief replied:
Your Avatar is goofy looking and has big ears.















Sorry, Jeanie, I couldn't help myself.

mammag replied:
Now you've crossed the line..........and I thought you were on my side.

redchief replied:
You're right, that was out of line. He isn't goofy looking at all. He looks positively Dopey.

ashtonsmama replied:

amynicole21 replied: The terrorists want to kill Americans for our beliefs, and the actions that stem from those beliefs.

We want to kill terrorists because of their beliefs and actions that stem from those beliefs

They believe their actions are justified by the rules of their religion which essentially determine the rules of their government.

We believe our actions are justified by the rules of our government.

We believe they are animals for their beliefs... they believe the same about us.

No matter how much we believe WE are justified in our actions, they believe just as vehamently that they are justified.

How are we that different?

mammag replied:
First, they don't have a goverment. This is not government versus government. Again, this is just a group of thugs we are attacking not an indvidual country or government. The government of Iraq is working with us now, the government of Afghanistan is working with us now. They are not attacking our government, they are attacking our citizens and other citizens throughout the world.

These terrorists we are killing are purposely targeting and killing thousands of innocent people not at all involved in the conflict.....we do not.

Your statements only prove that what we are doing is the only way to go about this....they will never agree with us....we most certainly will never agree to let them keep killing thousands of innocents on our own land.....so we must go after them with a vengence to make it impossible for them to commit another act like 9/11.

If you really think there is no difference between these terrorists and us......there is really nothing to argue about. That would be like comparing us to the Nazis in WWII. Don't give legitimacy to their actions by saying we are the same because we are NOT!

Trust me, if we were the same as them, the middle east would be one big, glass parking lot right now. Do you realize the devastation we could cause if that is all we cared about? If Al Qaeda had the nuclear arsenal that we have, they would use it without a moments hesitation.

I'm sorry but there is just no comparison whatsoever!

Here's a quick reminder of why we are fighting these so called people...


(edited for spelling)

amynicole21 replied: I'm sorry - have NO innocent bystanders been killed in Iraq?

And how is killing people who feel like life on Earth is meaningless and they will be offered dozens of virgins upon their entry to the afterlife going to stop another 9/11?

I am not saying that we should forgive and forget by any means. I'm just wondering how we are supposedly so virtuos in our actions if they are complete animals in theirs?

mammag replied:

So what are you saying? That's what I don't get. You have no other solutions but continue to question and degrade our soldiers to the same level as these animals. Yes I do call them animals! Not because of their religion, nationality, etc. I would call a child predator the same thing. I would call the IRA in Northern Ireland the same thing. I would call the Nazis the same thing. When you are dealing with people that won't/can't sit down and talk that's what they become. We then get into a situation of kill or be killed.....I'd rather kill.

If someone ever made the mistake of entering my house to try and harm my family, I would treat them the same way. I'm not going to stop to ask questions or negotiate....they will be shot, period! That is what they did, they came to our home (America) and killed thousands of our brothers and sisters......now they must pay the price for those actions.

The war on terror will never be over. If you think otherwise, you are mistaken. We won't be in Iraq forever but this war will never be over as long as there are terrorists out there.

How did WWII end? Violence.... I can only imagine how the world would be if we just let continue on the path they were taking. I suppose they were the same as us because they had their belief (that the were a superior race) and their actions were a reflection of those beliefs????

Again, if you've got a better solution.....let's hear it.

MyLuvBugs replied:
I'm so glad!

MyLuvBugs replied:
Unfortunately it did. And thousands of innocent as well as non-innocent people were killed or mamed in the end. My grandfather helped build Little Boy and Fat man (The first two atomic bombs). I love my grandpa, but that's something that I'm not really proud of him for and I think in his heart he's not fully proud of it either.

To quote the co-pilot of the Enola Gay that dropped the bombs: "My God, what have we done?"

It's human nature to learn, to grow, and create new.....the problem is we never seem to learn when to leave well enough alone. KWIM?

I realize that war and violence and terror and death are all part of human nature, and that they aren't going to go away anytime soon (if ever) . But I refuse to give up hope that the world and mankind can change, b/c a "life without hope is empty, boring, and a useless life" (Vaclav Havel)

mammag replied: It was a sad day indeed. Over 120,000 died in Hiroshima instantly, thousands within the years after due to the radiation.

Unfortunately, we were again facing a brutal enemy willing to die (Kamikaze pilots for example) in order to kill us. Again we were facing an enemy with irrational beliefs. They thought their emporor was a living god. Do you know how many people the enemy killed in WWII? Over 50 million died in the fight against European fascism and the tyranny of the Japanese Empire. Over 400,000 of these were Americans, the rest were Russians, Poles, and other Eastern Europeans.

Yes, Little Boy & Fat Man took a lot of lives but they saved even more. We were facing the possibility of losing an estimated 500,000 if we tried to go in there. You should be proud of your grandfather......I am, a lot of people may not have ever existed if it weren't for his work.

The Japanese were asked to sign a surrender and refused. After Hiroshima they were warned again and still refused to sign a surrender. These were not people willing to sit at the table and work things out rationally. Even after both bombs were dropped, there was an internal struggle. Many in the Japanese military still thought surrender was unthinkable. Only facing complete devastation was Hirohito able to get the support he needed for the surrender. Six days after Nagasaki, Japan surrendered thus finally ending WWII.

They were a very brutal enemy much like we face today. Chris' uncle lost his family when the Japanese were retreating from the Phillipines. They were intent on killing even as the retreated. He was stabbed in the head with a bayonet but survived along with his sister. They were orphaned that day. The Japanese went through killing entire families.

If you would like one example of the brutality, do a search on The Rape of Nanking. It was Dec. 5, 1937.....250,000 lives lost....

Sometimes you have to make the tough decisions when faced with an enemy who appears to have no soul.....

I also believe that our Democrat president (FDR) made a fatal error in trying to stay out of the war for so long. It took the devastation at Pearl Harbor to get us involved. Lesson learned - you can't be reactionaries, it's in our best interest to be proactive and do something about it before it gets to that stage. 9/11 was our Pearl Harbor. Will we truly learn the lesson this time and stay the course? Or will we forget the lives lost that day and become complacent again because a certain segment of our population doesn't feel it is politically correct to wage this kind of war? God willing we'll do the former rather than the latter.

punkeemunkee'smom replied:
I am unsure as to how war (in the mind of some) seems to be some sort of chess match with well defined rules and white glove manners....war is HELL-it has always been so and it will always be so. Vietman was a country in which friends and enemies wore the same hats,so to speak...mothers handed their babies to our men and BLEW THEM UP! Yes the pictures are terrible-the pictures of our boys being blow to bits are pretty darn ugly too! There is no doubt in my mind that war crimes are commited but I have said once and I will say again-unless you are there,seeing and smelling death every second of everyday we have NO CLUE as to how you would react what would push you to the edge-futher more I do not believe we know or ever will know the full truth of the stories and it is sad to me when there is litterally 100's of thousands of amazing,helpful,brave,and selfless acts preformed by our men and women in the armed forces that there is a report being written about a 35 year old black mark on the record of our history. I would also like to remind you that they killed some of our children too on September 11-unborn albeit but American citizens none the less who were never allowed to make their way in this world because their moms went to work one day and somebody else had other plans. So yes some of their children will die at our hands, many of their children have already died at their hands,they use them as sheilds and throw them away like yesterdays news. Sad-of course! Heartbreaking really but once again reality is this-THEY attacked US on our soil first. What would you have us do? ASK them politely to tea and tell them we would like it if they wouldn't do that again?They do see us as people -a people they wish to irradicate. They are in a jhiad against us-that means ALL of us are to be eliminated-men women and OUR BABIES too! The men and women that you seem so ready to point fingers at and call out mistakes are the only line of defense between MY family and them fufilling their mission. So unless and until ,God forbid, we see warfare on our streets and I KNOW how I will react, I will refrain from doing anything more than saying THANK YOU to the soldiers who are living in tents, fighting 140* degree heat and just trying to stay alive and keep all of us safe!

punkeemunkee'smom replied:

Guess he wasn't waiting on his Virgins.....

Updated: 04:43 PM EDT
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[SIZE=7]Women's Clothing Found in Zarqawi House[/SIZE=7]

By Michael Georgy, Reuters

HIBHIB, Iraq (June 10) - Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was accompanied by women who wore skimpy night clothing, and read magazines on current affairs and militant propaganda, an inspection of the house he was killed in showed on Saturday.


The U.S. military took reporters to the site of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's safe house three days after his death. He was blamed for beheading hostages and killing hundreds in suicide bombings.


The remains of Zarqawi's isolated "safe house" also suggested that the al-Qaida leader in Iraq and his companions -- which an Iraqi army officer said included two women and an eight-year-old girl -- lived with few luxuries.

The U.S. military took reporters to the site in the village of Hibhib, near the town of Baquba north of Baghdad, three days after the death of Zarqawi, blamed for beheading hostages and killings hundreds of people in suicide bombings.

At the site surrounded by palm groves, two thin foam mattresses were scattered among the debris of smashed concrete and twisted metal.

There were few clues on Zarqawi's extreme ideology or the militant groups he was linked to in the rubble of the building that was pulverized by two 500-pound (227-kg) bombs in a U.S. air strike on Wednesday.

One leaflet identified a radio station in Latifiya south of the capital as an apparent target. A few feet away was a magazine picture of former U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Also beside the slabs of concrete was a woman's leopard skin nightgown and other skimpy women's clothes.

The U.S. military had said the air strike killed a total of six people, three males and three females.

It said on Friday that a wounded Zarqawi was still alive when U.S. troops reached the site but died shortly afterwards.

Looking over the site where Iraq's most wanted man may have been plotting more suicide bombs, an Iraqi soldier said he felt a great sense of relief.

"I feel good. Zarqawi is dead. Thank you America," said Adel Hussein, 33, a resident of the area.

U.S. officers at the scene said they had been alerted to an operation but were not told that Zarqawi was the target of the air strike until the next morning.

Hibhib, about 70 km (43 miles) north of Baghdad, is typical of the rural Iraqi villages where U.S. troops hunt Sunni Arab insurgents and al-Qaida militants.

It is located in Diyala province, a volatile mix of majority Shi'ites and Arab Sunnis and Kurds that has suffered some of the grisliest violence. Zarqawi is said to have moved to Diyala as part of a strategy of constantly moving around Iraq to evade U.S. and Iraqi forces.

President Bush said on Friday that the death of the Jordanian-born Sunni Arab militant will not end the violence in Iraq but will "help a lot."


06/10/06 06:49 ET

Nina J replied: The thing that makes me sad is we (meaning the media) give so much attention to the death of evil (Al-Zarqawi), but so little to the death of innocence.

amynicole21 replied: My solution is this, since you asked - change our international policies. Understand that the world hates us for a reason, and figure out what that reason is and do something about it. Get to the root of this! Stop being so dependant on oil from foreign sources. Realize that democracy doesn't work for everyone, and not everyone wants it. Stop being a high school bully that runs in and beats up anyone who disagrees with us. No man is an island - no country can function without the support of it's neighbors. Our actions have consequences.

THese things will take time obviously. But why continue to do something that isn't working just because they don't have an easy alternative? Do you really believe that at the end of this war everyone will be all peaches and candy? We are making enemies faster than we can kill them. Yeeeeee haw.

Also, I think people have lost sight of why we are in Iraq. Did Saddam blow up the twin towers? Don't use 9/11 as a badge of honor for which we are given free license to jump in and take over wherever we see fit.

And lastly, I NEVER compared our soldiers to animals. I wouldn't do that. My anger is directed towards the people running this war, not those who are following their orders.

I am learning a lesson here - stay out of these political debates!! lol! I was up all night seething about this thread.

mammag replied:

9/11 is why we took on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan....these same people are who is causing this war to continue with Iraq. It is no longer the former Iraqi government we are fighting.

As to Saddam, we already know for a fact that he murdered thousands of Kurds with nerve gas. We know there are even now mass graves being found with his many victims. The thing is we tried resolutions with Saddam. He refused to comply. I, personally, still think he was making WMDs but they were moved or done elsewhere. Regardless, he wouldn't let us go in and properly inspect. How this is related to 9/11 is that we can't take chances anymore. We can't just take a mass murders word for it that he is doing the right thing. There was enough evidence of it that members of both parties agreed to this war.

The war has changed because after we got Saddam and his army out of there a new crowd came in.....because, as democrats were saying all along, they weren't there before we came......hah! that's a crock! Of course now they are saying we could have gotten Al-Zarqawi in 2002 because we knew where in IRAQ he was....well I'm getting off my train of thought here. So now we are fighting these same animals who would plan another 9/11 and continue killing many of innocent Iraqis themselves. We can not give them their way....we cannot hand this country over to these thugs.

If we bow down to people like this so that we are popular, we are going to be in a world of hurt. I'm sorry but your idea to the solution is just a wish washy fantasy, imo. Things don't work the way they did in school. In this scenario, we are not the school yard bully, they are! That is where your analogy fails.

amynicole21 replied: OK, kill everybody - every last person on earth who hates us... and quickly. What do I know.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Such a lively discussion! I love this!! Interesting to finally be able to hear both sides of this issue, without the mudslinging, and uneccessary banter that often comes up in discussions when two sides disagree.

mammag replied:
No no, not everyone who hates us. Just the ones that try to kill us. And if we did........which isn't going to happen any time in my lifetime if ever, would there not be peace then?

MyLuvBugs replied:
The reason that most of them hate us is b/c we seem to think that we are the know all and be all. We get into everyone elses business and try to solve all the worlds problems without even asking if they want any help.

I happen to believe that FDR was a great great man. He chose to stay out of a war that was NONE of our business. Yes we had been asked to help, but he didn't feel that it was our place at that time. I'm sure he lived with a ton of regret for Pearl Harbor for the rest of his days. It was a tough decision to make, but he believed in peace. And if you want to get technical, we were in WWII from the very begining by providing supplies to Eastern Europe. However, at the time participation in a war that you weren't initially involved in was frowned upon by most governments. It was Japan that decided to get us completely involved with an unproked attack, but until that time we were merely suppliers.

The problem that I have with one of your previous statements Jeanie is that you clearly state that the bomb on Hiroshima killed over 120,000 people (mostly innocents) b/c Japan "refused to surrender". Yes it was war, and yes we had the technology, but that didn't mean we had to use it.

The Al Quida seem to believe that they are at war with us, and have been for years (which is a surprise to us). So, for them 9/11 was their way of trying to make an enemy that "refused to surrender" get a point. Thousands of innocents died again. The only problem with their plan is that they took on a "super power", which was just dumb, but it's their logic.

So what makes us any different? We both used technology to kill thousands of innocent people b/c we believed that the "enemy" refused to surrender.

redchief replied:

I'm really sorry that you took this debate personally. This country has it's foundations on differing ideals and thought processes. I know my conservative stance on the issues raises your hackles often (and you're not the only one by any means). Every time I take part in one of these debates, I learn. Sometimes I learn that my stance may be a bit too conservative and I moderate my thoughts on an issue (sorry, not this one ). Other times I learn that it's very important that I continue to stay current with what is going on in the world where the people live (I've done a lot of free-time research on these topics over the last couple days, making sure I have been accurate in my position). At any rate, I believe the voice of your opinion is important to setting the overall attitude of this country. In another time I shall be speaking from the minority position on an issue. I promise to voice my opinion regardless of who holds the political majority at that time. Please understand that I DO respect your opinions on this issue. I just don't agree with them.

redchief replied:
I happen to believe that, in retrospect, dropping atomic bombs on cities was a mistake. The winners of the wars get to write the history books, though. Now to your question, what makes it different is this: In WWII we were at war with an axis of governments bent on ruling the world. We were fighting a defensive war against an aggressive enemy that desired to force their rule over us. Radical Islam (and for that matter, any terrorist organization) desires to force their ideology upon the free world through the use of terrorism (if you don't know the definition, look it up). Again, we are defending our right to live freely and worship who we want, how we want. That promise from a free society is against the core beliefs of radical Islam, so they feel they have no alternative but to attack us as demonic enemies. We are simply exercising our right to defend our way of life, and our citizens.

jcc64 replied: Wowsers, missed a lot here. That'll teach me to leave my 'puter for a few days!
I really, really have to take offense with whomever it was that accused me of being both anti-American and more importantly, anti-soldier. Again and again, I have stressed that I bear no malice toward the troops (unless they have been proven guilty of something, such as Abu Graib), but as is customary when anyone dares to question the policies of this almighty administration, they are immediately branded as un-patriotic and anti-soldier. It is not such a difficult concept to understand that one can support the soldier but disdain the policy that landed him in the middle of a war. And I find it very tiring to have to continually make the distinction- get over that tactic already. This administration got a free pass for long enough after 9-11- if you want a functional democracy, you better be able to handle dissent. Dissent is where we came from- and to criticize people who criticize the gov't is about as un-American as you can get. I'm sorry Ed if my opinions of Bush offend you- trust me- my verbage is as restrained as I can make it. I don't recall alot of restraint from the other side when Ciinton was in the White House.
And as far as wondering why it's important to learn lessons from our military history such as the My Lai massacre-my god, are we never to have a moment of self reflection or questioning about our own decisions that involve the slaughter of innocents? About what would lead our own people to behave like that? There are countless opportunities to celebrate all of the heroic acts of our military over the years- they're called Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc. Our childrens' history books are filled with stories of American heroism. But I think it's also important to learn from our mistakes. Sorry if you think that's unAmerican as well.
And finally, I will not mourn this man's death. He was obviously a horrible human being. But I refuse to dehumanize the other side in an effort to bolster our feelings of superiority on the planet. That's what I said from the beginning, but as is often the case in these types of debates, people get reduced to stereotypes- and I'm obviously the poster child for the evil, god awful, America hating Liberal. Move over Jane Fonda.

mammag replied:
This is the 2nd time in a debate that someone has made an accusation and I can't seem to find where anyone called you anti-american or anti-soldiers. If I'm mistaken please point that out. Otherwise it makes it appear as though those of us who disagree with you are using dirty tactics....as far as I can tell, no one has. This has been a debate of facts and opinions on those facts. I don't recall anyone making personal attacks here........well, except Ed was making fun of my avatar.... The only statement I did find was where Ed said your statement was unAmerican but that is vastly different than anti-American.

And fwiw.....I don't agree with every thing Bush does (Immigration for instance). So I would never consider someone who disagrees anti-American.

redchief replied: Jeanne, I have never, nor would I ever, call you un-American. I would have to believe it to say it, and I don't for a moment think you are un-American. What I said, that may have been misconstrued was, "Further, I think that statement is extremely un-American, but you definitely have a right to feel as you do and speak freely."

A good American can make an un-American statement, especially in the heat of debate. I'm guilty as well. That said, I DO think that was an un-American statement. I had a great dislike for both Carter and Clinton as presidents, but I would never sully the office of President of the United States of America by calling them idiots. I didn't like their policies, at home or abroad, but I would never degrade the office of president in that way. For the record, I was also very disappointed in the elder Bush's foreign policy. But you don't get to be president of the most powerful nation in the world by being an idiot, no matter what party you come from. Imagine where you would be if you were an Iraqi woman in 1990 and came out publicly and said President Hussein is an idiot. Bah! I suppose, even during war, you have the right to think our president an idiot regardless of the facts that contradict the statement.

I also never called anyone unpatriotic or anti-soldier, nor did I say the administration was all-mighty. In fact, I believe I was very careful in pointing out that the decision to go to war was bi-partisan and overwhelmingly supported in both the House and the Senate. Regardless of how you now feel about the war, it was not simply a presidential decision for the USA to go there. It is, however, amusing to watch the members of Congress so clumsily attempt to wash their hands of their support for this war with the elections coming up.

I weighed in on My Lai. Though I didn't look back, I believe I said something to the effect ithat if something similar happened in Haditha, then those that committed those acts must pay for their actions. We already know what may have caused such an event, but that doesn't excuse a murderous reaction regardless of the catalyst. I stand by my statement that any homo-sapien who thinks it is okay to target and kill an unarmed civilian to advance a political or religious cause has forfeited his humanity. Perhaps it is our definition of humanity that is different. In my opinion, you can be a human being and still lose your humanity, which to me is the feeling of brotherhood we should all share sentient beings. I also don't necessarily think that all people who have forfeited their humanity should be killed. If they can be captured and placed away from the rest of us until they pass, that's okay too. Unfortunately, we aren't going to take most of those we're fighting alive.

Dissent I can handle. In fact, I love a debate. I'm still waiting to read a sensible, logical, and do-able alternative from the detractors. Let us debate the viability of other ideas to solve the Mid-East problem, instead of beating the "should we be there or not" horse to death ad nauseum.

jcc64 replied: Ed, other than the un-American thing- my statement wasn't directed at your posts (nor yours', Jeanie). I've debated with you often enough Ed to recognize that you respond in a very methodical way to EXACTLY what was originally stated, which is why I like to debate with you.
I definitely can't concede on the degradation of the oval office thing. I don't feel any obligation whatsoever to respect someone simply by virtue of their ownership of a title, nor do I believe intelligence is a prerequisite for getting oneself elected. But let's not digress any further.
You've asked several times about solutions from us dissenters. I do not pretend for a second to be a Middle East scholar, so please feel free to correct any factual errors that may follow.
For every problem, there is both cause and effect. I think the major difference between the pro war people and the dissenters is that the pro war people believe the solution lies in focussing on the effect of the problem, whereas people such as myself (and Amy) believe it's more critical to start with the cause. The problem of course is terrorism. The effect is the intentional slaughter of innocents. The pro war people rightly assert that this is absolutely unacceptable and must be stopped at all costs. And so, they set about doing just that, and with all of our money and formidable war toys, we've made a dent, a very small dent. But I'm gonna have to drag out the over used garden weed analogy- you can pull a weed out over and over again- unless you get down deep in the earth and pull out the far reaching roots- not only will that weed continue to come back, but it will spread its seed all over your yard. Are there less terrorists now than before the war???
My solution starts with a thorough acknowledgement and understanding of the cause of the terrorism problem, and there is no concise, sound bitey way of describing it. Gosh, where do I start? We need to admit that for many, many years we have worked behind the scenes in Middle East politics to engineer the most fortuitous outcomes for our interests in the region. What's wrong with that, you might ask? I do believe that when we prop up oppressive regimes who ruthlessly suppress the civil rights of their own people (particularly women), and then trumpet ourselves as the great protectors of freedom, I can understand why people would come to resent us. My first awareness of this was probably before most of you were born (except you Ed, my fellow old fart)- during the Iran hostage crisis. That was at the dawn of my own political awakening, and I remember questioning my parents (who were hardly raging liberals) about why the Iranian students hated us so much. And I remember some jumbled story about the fact that we backed the Shah of Iran, who wasn't particularly concerned with the well being of the average Joe in Iran. Which, incidently, was when we viewed Saddam as the "good" guy and sent lots and lots of weapons and aid his way. (which to date no one has responded to here). And we've all heard about the madrassahs- religious schools where young (male) children are indoctrinated into radical Islam and taught to hate us. Very often, families send their children there not b/c of their piety or politics but for the promise of a free education and food, which would otherwise be unavailable. Meanwhile, the royals in power are the wealthiest people on the planet and they're not sharing. Speaking of Saudi Arabia, and I think it's incredible that it always seems to get lost in these types of debates that the vast majority of the 9/11 hijackers came not from Iraq but from Saudi Arabia. Why were there no repurcussions against that country? We have a long, intimate relationship with the Saudi royal family, especially the Bush family- there are many books on the subject- look into it. I believe Al Queda's #1 issue with us was the presence of our military on sacred land in Saudi Arabia. I also believe we need to examine the liability of our unquesioned alliance with Israel. While there is unarguably reprehensible behavior all around in that conflict, it would be a different "war" without our involvement, and again, I believe people in the region are wondering what our right to be there is. Again, I am no expert on the subject, I pick up what I can, and I must admit, when the feuds start straying into Biblical times, I do sort of glaze over b/c well, it's ancient history, and maybe not even history at all. But I can guarantee you this- if some foreign country came over here and started throwing its weight around to advance its own interests at our expense (Dubai Ports World, anyone??), I'm quite certain we wouldn't be too happy about it either- and we're at least enjoying a decent standard of living for the most part.
Anyway, I am aware that these sorts of musings are met with impatience by people on the other side of this debate. To ponder such things is to appear weak and well, like Democrats. The Bush way seems to be- "Shoot first, ask questions later (if at all)" And as I've said all along, if we're gonna start a war, and start one we did, b/c once again I have to remind you that Iraq did not have anything to do with 9/11, then we better be sure we have all the facts straight first.
But what I've come away from this debate with is the notion that lots of people here don't wonder why or particularly care why someone would have so little to live for that strapping a bomb to his chest or driving a plane into a wall would seem like a good idea. My own curiousity has less to do with charity or empathy and more to do with wanting to pull out the roots, if you will. My feelings about the war have less to do with being married to a liberal ideology and more to do with the way I generally attack problems. And it kind of goes back to the My Lai thing again- b/c I think we need to examine our own accountability in this conflict too. Doing so doesn't excuse the hideous behaviour on the other side of the equation, trust me. But while I don't think I will ever be able to wrap my head around why someone's faith would drive them to kill, I can wrap my head around the way decisions get made in this country. That I can do something about, at least theoretically.
This is getting epic. I told you there wasn't a short way of saying it. Which is why it doesn't play as well on tv as "Mission Accomplished" or other cutesy, Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Ah-nold macho catch phrases. It's complicated stuff. And my head hurts now.

MyLuvBugs replied:
Yeah I ment as a Pres. not a husband or father.

MyLuvBugs replied:
EXCUSE ME Ed! That was a little uncalled for. Thanks!

mammag replied:

I'm not quite sure what you are meaning with this statement. Is it the terrorists that resent us for this? Because the last I knew, these people that we supposedly caused to be oppressed are the very ones they are killing in Iraq with their suicide bombs. We are the ones who took Saddam out. If they were worried only about the oppression of their people they should be happy he's gone, now the people can get food and water....could live in peace except these offended are killing them....

I feel you are making the mistake of projecting our morality and thought processes to these terrorists and it is just not so. You also make the mistake of, as I said before, taking the word of mass murderers as to the reasoning behind their madness.

Here is a quote for you....
"And by God's grace," he says at another point in the tape, "the men ... are going to have a successful result in killing Americans and getting rid of them."
This is from Bin Laden. Does that sound like someone who would be willing to forgo all the killing because we acknowledge wrong doings? And then what was the other part of your solution? Stay out of politics there while they do build WMDs and Nukes? Sounds like a viable solution to me except.....

This from a representative of the Ayatollah.....

Tehran, Iran, Mar. 04 – A representative of Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in Tehran University declared on Friday that Islam must “conquer the world” by defeating the West.

Hojjatol-Islam Alireza Panahyan, who was delivering the pre-sermon speech at this week’s Friday prayers in the Iranian capital, said that the West was trying to put fear into the hearts of Muslims through “torture and nuclear weapons”.

“We intend to conquer the world without [nuclear] weapons. Such weapons are not needed to set the stage for the return of the [Shiite messiah] Mahdi”, Panahyan said.

He called on Muslims to overcome their fear of the West’s might.

“If you do not fear and take a stance, they will not be able to say anything and will try not to get into a fight with you, because they know that they will lose”, he said.
A Daily Briefing of Major News Stories on Iran:

You see, they want to conquer the world. Then you've got others who are no better than a serial killer here....their whole goal is to get satisfaction out of killing.

I leave this with some final quotes that I feel relate to what you consider the degredation of the office and the reasoning behind Iraq.....

The United Nations believes that Saddam Hussein may have produced as much as 200 tons of VX (nerve gas)… we face a clear and present danger… terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in New York City had in mind the destruction and deaths of 250,000 people….

What if Saddam fails to comply (with UN sanctions), or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more time to develop this (WMD) program? He will conclude that the international community has lost its will… [that] he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, I guarantee you, he’ll use this arsenal.

The world hasn’t seen, except maybe since Hitler, somebody quite as evil as Saddam Hussein. If you don’t stop a horrific dictator before he gets started too far, he can do untold damage….

“For the last eight years, American policy towards Iraq has been based on the tangible threat that Saddam poses to our security. That threat is clear.”

Do you know who said these things? You might be surprised....

Oh and as to the weed analogy. It's actually a wonderful analogy. You see, I don't believe in pulling out one weed at a time. I get myself a powerful spray and kill them all. If I thought I could sit and discuss with the weeds why I would like them to please leave my yard and stop killing the grass, I fear I would get the same reaction we would get from trying to talk to terrorists, complete devastaion of the yard. I will get to the roots, but I'll get to the roots and flush them out. We must do the same with terrorism. I think ANY country that in ANY way helps these terrorists needs to be dealt with and dealt with harshly....unfortunately, not even my dear Republican politicians have the b***s to go to the extent that I think we need to go to. If that is too harsh for some of you...well, I can only say it like I feel it.

jcc64 replied: This thread has been on my mind off and on for the last 2 days. It is causing me deep distress. It is quite clear that there is a great great ideological divide here, one that cannot be bridged, and I feel there is no point to continuing the conversation at this point in time, at least not from my perspective. I'm not learning anything from you, you're not learning anything from me- let's just drop it for now.

mammag replied: I'm sorry that this has caused you such distress. I'm willing to let it lie.

You are mistaken however, I always learn something from your posts even if it is not the message you are necessarily trying to get through. I always enjoy these types of conversations with you.

lisar replied:
I agree....

mammag replied: How nice of them...... They just gave us the name of the next target!!!!

From Fox News....

CAIRO, Egypt — Al Qaeda in Iraq announced in a Web statement posted Monday that a militant named Abu Hamza al-Muhajer was appointed the group's new leader to succeed the slain Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The name was not immediately known. The name al-Muhajer, Arabic for "immigrant," suggested he was not Iraqi.

"Al Qaeda in Iraq's council has agreed on Sheik Abu Hamza al-Muhajer to be the successor for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the leadership of the organization," said a statement signed by the group on an Islamic militant Web forum where it often posts messages.

It said al-Muhajer was "a beloved brother with jihadi (holy war) experience and a strong footing in knowledge."

The authenticity of the statement could not be independently confirmed. Zarqawi, who founded the group, was killed Wednesday in a U.S. airstrike northeast of Baghdad.

C&K*s Mommie replied: You as well have made good points, as Ed and Erika have too. And they have been supported with facts well.

jcc64 replied: Don't worry about it Jeanie. I just need to step away from talking about the war for a little while. It's really upsetting me. I normally also enjoy the exchange of ideas with you guys, but this issue always leaves me depleted. No bad feelings, really.

ashtonsmama replied:
AMEN Nina.



And I appreciate all of your thoughtful comments and debating, it's been eye-opening for someone who doesn't usually get into political/war types of things, so thank you. After 4 pages of it though, I'm sure you all (Erika, Ed, Jeanie) are getting tired of re-stating your opinions, so feel free to take a breather!

gr33n3y3z replied: lol
I learned more here then I did in class

Thank you everyone

MyLuvBugs replied:
ITA! I'm not distressed, but we're going around and around and around. And some posts are starting to feel like personal attacks instead of the sharing of ideas. So I'm done.