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ok, so i have an issue - and it's really bothering me, long story


cameragirl21 wrote: ok, someone tell me honestly if i did the wrong thing here...this may upset some people so just be forewarned as it may be a touchy subject to some.
anyway, so this weekend, the lady who took her sons to be photographed with the tiger cub was having a special scrapping session at her store (she owns a scrap booking store) and she asked me to come over and show off pics of tiger encounters because her clients were interested in the idea.
so it seems the owner also told her client that i do some work for publication with models. well, i don't take models from agencies because i don't want the kids to be overtrained so i generally hand select children from the general public who have little or no experience modeling and i train the children myself...for example the girl with the scorpion was trained for 2 years before she got to touch the scorpion so bottom line, i invest a lot time, energy, blood, sweat and tears into these kids.
anyway, this woman was there with her daughter...she and the daughter nearly jumped when i showed up and they were both all over me like flies on honey telling me that the girl wanted to model for me.
so here's the thing--the girl IS interesting looking, she's not as stunning as most of the kids that model for me but she had very interesting eyes and a very cherubic type face...i thought she might make for a good Aquarius, which is a very hard one to do because the sign is so unconventional that you really need an unusual looking child and this girl certainly has the eyes for it and she said she's not afraid of animals.
well, the thing is that Aquarius will be shot in a swimming pool...more on that later.
anyway, the girl is 9, which is a bit older than i like to work with (i typically work with ages 3-7 when it comes to modeling) but she appears small for her age BUT i could see that she was already getting tiny little boobies and was a bit round for me, simply put, in order for me to use her she must lose some weight, not that much but about 5 or so pounds.
so i didn't want to say anything in front of her so i asked to speak to her mom privately and very nicely told her that her daughter is beautiful and that i am interested in her but that she's a little rounder than what i need her to look like for my picture and could her mom put her on a diet for the next month or so.... anyway, the mom wasn't upset, in fact she agreed that the girl eats too much junk food and that she needs to lose some weight but i told her that i can see the girl is starting to go thru puberty and we don't want to limit her calories to where that can't go forward as nature has intended. but to be fair, i'm not into the skinny waifish look at all, the fact is that the girl needs to lose weight not just for modeling but she's bigger than a healthy 9 year old should be. i didn't tell her mom that though. i simply said that i'd like to test her regardless but i would need her to shed 5 pounds or so in order to do the final picture.
the mom also said the girl is already very self conscious about all this and in fact, as i was leaving the girl asked me if she'd have to get in the pool and what she'd be wearing. as a rule, i never put kids in swimsuits for publication pics because i'm afraid of pedophiles so i told her she'd not be wearing a swimsuit and she was very relieved and said that she doesn't want people to see her in a swimsuit, so clearly she already has a complex about it.
i feel awful that i had to tell this mom that her kid needs to lose weight in order to model but bottom line is that if she doesn't lose the weight i can't use her, that's just the way the business works and truthfully, i'd not have asked this girl to model for me even though i do like her look just because of her weight...but they came to me.
my ga says i should have just passed her up and not said anything to her mom other than thanks but no thanks. but i asked the lady at the lab that prints most of my stuff today and she says i did the right thing because at least i gave the girl a chance.
look, this is an ugly business, there is no question and the incidence of overweight kids is rising...this girl is not very overweight but like i said, she's too round for what i'm looking for and 5 pounds could fix that so i gave her mom the option and like i said, the mom was not even a little upset or surprised.
did i do the wrong thing? should i have just told her that her daughter is beautiful but too old for my purposes or that i'll call her whenever i find the use for her (which would be never in this case)?
it's been a few days and i'm still very upset about this.
sorry this is so long.

Calimama replied: Honestly if the lady is looking to start her child in modeling whether it be with you or someone else, they are going to tell her she needs to lose weight. At least you said nicely rather than having the child hurt. If I were you, and I wanted to use this little girl, I would have done the exact same thing you did.

A little OT but what do you tell a parent when you really don't want to use their kid for physical reasons? huh.gif

cameragirl21 replied:
i usually tell them that either i'm not looking for that particular look at the time being, but will contact them should my needs change OR simply that their child is adorable but not the look i'm seeking at this time.
it happens all the time, unfortunately. sleep.gif
the problem i have is that i don't just work with beautiful kids...the kids i work with are usually very striking and unusual looking, which is why i love biracial kids. that said, being beautiful or simply cute isn't enough to work with me but many agencies and clothing designers and/or photographers just like good looking kids, so all in all, there are opportunities out there for nearly everyone.
but being overweight is the kiss of death in this business, no matter who you want to work with. sleep.gif

gr33n3y3z replied:
Well first off it was wrong of the person to put you on the spot and I would tell them that right off.

2nd not so sure about the weight thing either see so many push to be perfect even if its only 5lbs so that I cant agree with bc I feel the PERFECT body isnt everything when it comes to pics and kids or anybody for the matter of fact and I know its the business but I dont have to agree with it
Maybe you should accept her for who she is and maybe more will follow suit from your example smile.gif
hug.gif hug.gif

BAC'sMom replied:
I have to agree with Lisa on this one! I am simply floored! blink.gif

amynicole21 replied: It's a business decision, and I think you handled it professionally. Why lie to people?

cameragirl21 replied:
you are wise as always, Amy, thanks.
it's just hard...every parent has a dream for his/her child and you have no idea what i go thru everyday with some parents...stardom is elusive, kwim?
a little pudge is a major sin in this business, in fact if you look at my scorpio, even she was a little too big BUT i'd been working with her for 2 years and she wasn't even a little overweight when i first met her and there was nothing i could do at that point, she was trained and ready to go and i shot from an angle where you can't really tell that she needs to lose some weight but for the purposes of modeling, she was considered overweight, technically speaking.
i figure i gave the girl a chance, what more could i do?
the industry standard is what it is, i am no one to change it.
the thing is that agencies do this all the time and they don't care what it does to the kids...i've witnessed it. they'd have looked the girl in the eye and told her to lose some weight and not to show up there again till she does.
i would never say that to a kid but they do it everyday without giving it a second thought.
i LOVE what i do but times like this make it a little less loveable.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Bah... if it wasn't you, it would be someone else.

I know you did ballet for years, Jennifer, you posted that before... so did I - and I got kicked out because I was a little chunky and wasn't losing the weight.

Ok I was a lot chunky.

But I digress... it is what it is... and until society doesn't gasp at the image of a person either too fat or too skinny to do modeling, then it's in the air as far as what your particular needs and preferences for models are.

I like the fact that severely thin models are banned from runways now in certain parts of the fashin industry... i mean - like seriously... who buys the clothes? People like you and me... not 80 pound drug addicts with eating disorders. It's nice to finally be able to think of models looking like...well...models of society.

I think you handled it very professionally, considering the lady put you on the spot as she did.

My kids are big for their ages. They're not chunky, they're built. They're over tthe percentile charts, like wayyy over. But they're healthy...and they, so far, seem to have a great body image... and I hope it stays that way.

cameragirl21 replied:
thanks, Rocky. hug.gif

redplaydoh replied: I think you handled it wonderfully!

I myself don't think I would want my kids to be models. I just don't think it's in my kid's nature. I was approched by someone that wanted me to take Lucas to an audition that was being held in NYC for the Hanna Anderson catalog, maybe I would've considered but I was very pregnant with Bryan and I just didn't want to subject Lucas to having to change outfits frequently, having pictures made and all that stress. He was a very striking baby though, big blue eyes.... apparently what this person told me they were looking for. But I still want Jennifer to take some pics for me to hang on my wall wink.gif Now I just have to get to Florida for that! emlaugh.gif

gr33n3y3z replied:
I can understand that I hope I didnt hurt your feelings in any way by what I said its like you said this is the business and you have to remember they put you on the spot
hug.gif

MyBabeMaddie replied: As someone who grew up with horrible self esteem and an eating disorder - I think that first off you gotta do what you gotta do - they should never have put you on the spot - Second she is just starting puberty and the whole perspective of one's self changes dramatically around that age - (I guess I'm just talking about me but I know a lot of girls when they were that age did/felt the same) You become interested in boys and make up and what you are wearing - II think that if you are not growing up with positive reinforcement from family especially at such a delicate age then the girl will grow up with an ED or other problems. You did the right thing by taking her mom aside and not letting the girl know you felt that way - I don't think you are a bad person nor do I look down on you at all for saying what you did - You aree in a business this is your profession - its your choice who to choose for your photos - Now if the mom went home and told her daughter "You're too fat" - Shame on her but its not you fault. Don't beat yourself up about it. Considering how they put it all on you unexpectedly you handled it just fine

cameragirl21 replied:
I did mean to tell you, DeAnn that your kids really are very interesting looking...they have that European look...i have no doubt they have the looks to make it in the modeling business.
i'd love to photograph your kids, just let me know when you're coming. happy.gif
and thanks, everyone, somedays it's just not an easy business to be in. it's never easy to tell a parent that his/her kid needs to change in order to be suitable for something but in all fairness, judging by the mom's reaction, i think she knew that already.

jcc64 replied: I think you handled it beautifully, Jen. It's a touchy subject, but the mother did put you in the awkward position in the 1st place- you didn't seek her out.

J-rod replied: maybe you should find a photography or modeling forum to join and get help and show off your pictures there.

this is parentingclub. thumb.gif

mom2my2cuties replied:
rolleyes.gif Oh Jeez Enough with that kind of thing already! She was asking for opinions from parents (at least on my take) about how they might take that news AND as a business person. And now on to something important.


And Jennifer, I think you handeled it fine. I think it was very mature and VERY responsible of you to talk to the mom privately, because the little girl could have been hurt severly by your words, no matter how professionally and elloquently they were delivered. In an age where eating disorders run rampart, the last thing that you would want to do, even by accident, is to cause a young girl to feel like in order to be "perfect" she has to starve herself.

However, judging from the moms reaction, the family already knew that the child was living an unhealthy lifestyle and needed to change.

I think you did fine.


cameragirl21 replied:
thanks and thanks, Tish, and you too, Jeanne. hug.gif
and you're right, i was asking how parents feel about this, because it's out there...i get scores of emails from parents everyday trying to get their kids into modeling and when i'm approached face to face, obviously it's a much harder situation to deal with.
i'm really glad everyone is ok with this...there is no getting around the industry standards, they are what they are. there is no way i can use the girl if she doesn't lose the weight, no publisher will want the picture.
but here i guess is where my concern lies--yes, the girl clearly wants to model but i could see that the mom really wanted to see her in print too...i told the mom what i would need in order to use the girl and now who knows how the mom handled it, kwim?
she may have gone home and stopped buying junk food for the girl to eat, problem solved. OR she may have told the girl that from now on she's only eating water and lettuce or she'll never be a star...kwim?
that's what's bothering me the most...the parents are often worse than anyone else in the industry when it comes to these sorts of things.

jcc64 replied:


Huh? Guess I missed the memo that said we not allowed to discuss anything but parenting issues here. Is simply not posting to a thread you are not interested in/knowledgable about too obvious a solution?!

I think it's a very relevent topic for parents to discuss anyway. Kids and weight issues are a crucial part of parenting- when your baby grows up you'll be better equipped to make the connection, J-Rod.

stella6979 replied:
That was my only concern, is how the Mother would handle the situation. Hopefully, she realizes the true problem and how unhealthy her daughter may become rather than focusing on her being a model. With that being said, I think you handled the situation perfectly.

J-rod replied: ok..i must have missed the memo changing things here.

edit - for nicer.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Not everyone here is a parent, J-Rod. This horse has been put down a long time ago. dry.gif

TheOaf66 replied: not that I am trying to stir up contoversy so don't think that, I just would really like to know or understand as to why you would be on a parenting forum if you don't have kids or will be soon, not trying to offend anyone whatsoever I am just curious as to what the interest is? If this does tick anyone off please escort me to the whipping post to take my licks laugh.gif

jcc64 replied: It is not our place to question a person's motivation for being on this board, so long as the TOS are respected, as well as the general decorum here at PC. We've had this conversation, ad nauseum.
Enough already.

TheOaf66 replied: I have never seen this topic before and now my question is answered thank you biggrin.gif

gr33n3y3z replied:
Well put
Thank you hug.gif

Insanemomof3 replied:
Hmmm I didn't stop talking about computers, pictures, music and all that I am interested in when I became a parent. I talk about all kinds of things here.


Jennifer, you take wonderful pictures and I think you handled it perfect. You didn't say anything in front of the girl, AND they did put you on the spot. thumb.gif

lovemykiddies replied: Hi~

I took a special interest in this topic, and just had to reply. Just for the record (I have read all the responses on this thread), I'm not a parent either. I'm a 22 year old childcare provider/babysitter/nanny--whatever you want to call me! tongue.gif I DO plan to have kids some day, and find this forum helpful at times. Some topics are intriguing to read...and some don't even apply to me. I'm not a regular, obviously, but hopefully no one minds I read/post occasionally. I never thought it might be a problem. I also am majoring in child psychology, and take a special interest in kids.

Anyways, in reference to the original post...I do have a problem with thinking any 9 year old needs to lose 5 pounds for something like a photo shoot. I have an eating disorder myself, so I guess I'm just a little more sensitive. I know that eating disorders can develop from a number of different factors, but society's overemphasis on weight is definitely not helping.

To the original poster...this is definitely nothing against you. I saw some of your photography on another thread, and it was breathtaking...absolutely beautiful. You are so talented. I guess the main thing that bothered me was this statement: "the fact is that the girl needs to lose weight not just for modeling but she's bigger than a healthy 9 year old should be" I don't think anyone except a medical professional can accurately determine whether a child is bigger than a healthy child their age should be.

Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone...but I do feel very strongly that no 9 year old child should ever be put on a diet.

Calimama replied: I think this subject needs to be dropped before it escalates. Just my opinion though. wink.gif

holley79 replied: I think you handled it all the way around well Jennifer.

kimberley replied:
i don't necessarily agree. from every thread i read on a "controversial" topic.. i always come away with some new food for thought. having these discussions enables us to see other sides of things we wouldn't normally see. as long as it remains on topic and without personal attacks, we can benefit from reading ALL sides of an argument. we don't have to agree, we just have to handle ourselves maturely. being a parent is not a requirement to be a member here. being civil is.


*Disclaimer: that is just my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of the administrators or other mods of the board.

kimberley replied: my opinion to Jennifer, i could never work in your industry because i do have an issue with telling little girls they need a diet to be considered "beautiful". however i do agree you handled it professionally.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Thank you for being honest and up front. I think that's all people are looking for when they ask questions like Troy asked. It's not to be rude, it's also not a concern or people asking for legitimacy, it's just a general question out of curiosity. Nobody should be offended, it's just a question, IMHO.

I am also a childcare provider and do licensed daycare in my home and have found the site to be helpful not just as a parent, but as a "teacher" too! Welcome!!! smile.gif I am sure you have a lot to offer and I'm sure you will get a lot of great advice from parents here too.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I have to agree strongly with this.

Calimama replied:
I didn't say it should be closed because it's controversial. I said that because as usual it was jetting away from the topic and causing arguments. It seems to have been settled though. I agree that having a discussion where people have different opinions is a good thing. I know I learn a lot. thumb.gif

cameragirl21 replied: First and foremost, i want to thank everyone for their opinions and the kind words i got from most of you...this is a difficult subject to tackle and when put on the spot i think many of us would find ourselves struggling to determine the best solution. it's a difficult industry to be in but as with everything there are positives and negatives to everything.
as to why any of us are here, i don't think anyone owes an explanation and i don't think anyone is owed an explanation, as long as rules are followed and the decorum of the board is respected then that should be enough to satisfy anyone and everyone. if anyone has questions about anyone else then IMO that is what the PM feature is for and everyone should be aware that their questions may or may not be answered and their curiosity may or may not be indulged. i don't think anyone is here or anywhere else in life for no reason, it's just basic logic. JMO of course.
as to whether or not a 9 year old girl or any child should have to lose weight for a photo shoot or anything else, the point is that to be in a photo shoot or to be a model, a dancer, or a host of other types of professions and industries, there are certain standards and a decision has to be made whether or not someone wants to make sacrifices in order to meet these standards. if a girl wants to be a model and she's overweight by either a little or a lot, she has to decide if she wants the modeling badly enough. ultimately though, the decision should not be forced on the child by the mother or anyone else, which is where my concern lies. i'd never have approached this girl or any other overweight child and ask that they change for me, but if they come to me begging me to find something for them to be featured in then i have to decide if i should give them a chance or pass them up entirely, and while cornered i chose the give the girl a chance.
also, i don't think i (or anyone else) has to be a medical professional to determine that a child is overweight, one need only to have eyes for this. just like i can determine that a person has a hump on his/her back or walks with a limp, etc, i can also tell if a child is bigger than s/he should be. one need not go to medical school for that and it was very clear from the conversation i had with the mother (and we talked at length) that she was very much aware that her daughter needed to lose weight, she was not surprised to say the least. and in all fairness, after years in this industry, on both sides of the camera, i by now know very well what a model should look like, figure wise, and it's not a lay opinion or one that i came up with at the spur of the moment.
it's a cruel and brutal industry and i didn't make the rules but i have to live by them. if a child wants to work with me and corners me asking or rather begging me to use him/her then i have no choice but to live by the industry standards. i don't think anyone can expect any more of me. and obviously, if i were unconcerned by the possible effects this could have on this child or any child, i wouldn't be here asking, would i? it's not as if i think it's a fair and perfect industry.
in all fairness, i usually lay low about what i do for publication out in public to avoid these types of things but i am approached often by hopeful parents and grandparents, some of which are literally foaming at the mouth, forcing their children on me. that said, i'm sure this will happen again and should it happen again, i wanted to get a consensus from a group of parents who clearly care enough about their children and parenting in general to spend a good portion of their time on such a message board how they feel this should best be handled. because like i said, this will very likely happen again with a different child.
thanks again for the kind words. hug.gif

Calimama replied: Well said! hug.gif hug.gif


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