While we're on the controversial bandwagon... - what do you think about

Boys r us wrote: families who are on government assistance, yet choose for one of the parents to be a stay at home mother/father?

amynicole21 replied: Honestly, daycare is so expensive that sometimes it makes more sense. Working at McDonalds isn't going to cover the bills, you know? I don't know too much about government assistance, so I probably shouldn't offer an opinion

MommyToAshley replied: I don't know much about it either, but it is there for a reason. And, like Amy said, childcare is so expensive that it makes sense for some. I am all for helping out families as long as they are not abusing the system.

The problem is with the "system", it needs to be set up in a way to help families to be self sufficient. Instead of just giving money to the family, there should be a long term goal of helping the working parent by educating or teaching new skills that would allow him/her to land a better job and support the family without assitance.

Kaitlin'smom replied: I agree helping is fine, but when they abuse it is when I have a problem.

I do know they are working to improve the system here you can only be on it so long, and they are starting or are offering programs to re-train people.

Boys r us replied: It just cooks my goose I guess that people opt to have kids and to stay home with them when they can't afford to, and they depend on the system to pay for theirs and their kids medical care, food, housing..so forth!
I see nothing wrong with government assistance as long as it is used properly, but don't get yourself into a situation knowing you can't afford to be in it. I guees maybe I should have reworded it..should people who are on government assistance be having more kids?

kimberley replied: i am not proud of this, but i was on assistance when the boys were small. i stayed home for 3 years then went back to school and finished my grade 12. daycare was subsidized for us but finding a placement with good hours could take years. i was lucky and got them both in about 6 mos after i applied and the daycare is right in the school. they even gave me a part time job there. it is the aftercare that is expensive and not covered. you gotta figure, most people on assistance don't have the skills to get a great job. with labor/ retail jobs comes shift work and long hours. most daycares operate from 8am - 4:30pm or 6pm in a rare few. and good luck getting in there for free . so what do you do when your boss says you have to work til 9:30pm? because they can get 50 single people to take your job with all the shift work for less pay. i did want to get off the system and get a job but they don't make it very easy. for most people, staying at home is not a choice really.

then when i started college, i was cut off of everything. they gave me a student loan that i had to pay for school and live on, but all of that money has to be paid back to the gov't. it makes no sense. i am trying to eduacate myself so i can be self sufficient and support my family alone, but there is no way to because they don't support post secondary education. it is really hard for a single parent to break out of the system.

thankfully, i met Jamie and with his help and my bar job, i was able to stay off the system but unfortunately i have a gigantic student loan to pay back.

MommyToAshley replied:
This is exactly my point, the current system actually penalizes those who try to help themselves!

Kimberley, you have nothing to be ashamed of... that's for sure!

kimberley replied:
are you suggesting that financial status determine whether people should have kids or not?? with my situation, my financial problems happened AFTER the kids. because there was no support system for me to obtain affordable housing, daycare, re-education... and the job market was horrible when my boys were born. my ex lost his job and remained unemployed for 2 years! and he was job searching everyday! i know, i helped him. because we were down on our luck we shouldn't be allowed to have kids??? i have been a tax payer since the age of 14. i had my first kid at 24yo. i think that affords me the right to use the system when i need it. i didn't abuse it. most of the single moms i know didn't either. they barely give you enough to live on so i don't think it is anyone's dream to be on welfare.

MomToMany replied: I'll say it, too. I was on assistance when my boys were small. I had Logan when I was 16, and I had Quentin when I was 18. My X and I were on assistance while we were going to high school. We got assistance for the daycare too. After we graduated, I stayed home while X went to work. We still got assistance for another couiple of years since X didn't make very much. But we got off of it, which is a really great feeling! I haven't been on it since, except for the daycare assistance I got after I left X for good.

I don't see anything wrong with a parent staying home while one works, and getting assistance. If they are truly need it to get by, that's fine. But it really makes me mad when people abuse the system, a screw it up for the peole who truly need it.

We're on WIC, too right now. It really helps with the grocery bill, considering how expensive milk is now. There's nothing wrong with it.

Boys r us replied: No not financial status..I'm suggesting that if you are already not able to take care of the kids that you have financially and you have to receive government assistance to support them, why should you purposely have more?

I'm not saying if you have 2 kids and you struggle to make it, then you're a bad person..I'm not saying that at all! I'm saying if you have two kids and you can't take care of those kids, then why on earth would you have another?
(you in a general term, not you specifically)

MomToMany replied:
That makes me mad, too. If being able to have kids went by income, we wouldn't have been able to have any. It's truly no one's business how many kids a person has. We get looks all the time when we go out, and some pretty stupid comments like "are they all yours???". Just because we have lots of kids, doesn't mean we are abusing the system.

We're doing just fine; we live a simple as we can. We use generic everything, I'm BFing so no formula, I use cloth diapers so there's no more diapers to buy, etc...

Boys r us replied: I think you are reading what you want into what I've written, instead of actually READING what I wrote!

No, I don't think finances should determine when and how many kids you have...if you can take care of them, then have 29 and I would think it's a beautiful and wonderful thing. But it is my business when someone who is ALREADY on welfare and so forth CHOOSES to have more children and drains the system even more, b/c my taxes and everyone else who is out there busting there butt to take care of their families, are paying for those kids to have medical care, food, housing...
In my opinion, you are choosing to use the system in that situation. As kimberly stated her story, she already had children, things went bad..THAT IS WHAT THE SYSTEM IS FOR!

kit_kats_mom replied: My mom had to accept assistance for a little while when I was young and I think that's ok. She was a young mother, who worked and was doing her best. It hurt her pride though and I think we only used it for a few months.

I've seen the other side though too. As a credit manager in a furniture store I had one lady that really made me sick. She came into the store, with 5 kids, many not wearing shoes. She filled out a credit app for a new living room/bedroom suite. Listed among her income were AFDC, child support from 3 different men, and other federal assistance programs. She also lived in subsidized housing and was pregnant again. As a credit manager, who worked 45-60 hours per week, I could not even afford to buy a new furniture set...shoot, even a used one! But I had to approve her application because you can't take into consideration where the money comes from...it's illegal. Anyway, she got her furniture and drove off in her brand new SUV that was all decked out with rims and other accessories. Did I mention that I was driving a 1971 super beetle? Not by choice, but because I couldn't afford anything else. What really made me sick was the fact that she didn't work and that her children looked unkempt and unhapy. She paid them no attention while she was in the store (too busy looking at her $30/week fake nails and adjusting her jewlery). For a while, after seeing that, I was of the belief that anyone who is on assistance should be implanted with norplant so that they can't have any more kids until they are able to support themselves. I don't believe that now but she really had me HOT!!!

I do agree that subsidys should be available but there do need to be some checks done to prevent that type of abuse. Maybe some financial counseling or something. I don't have an answer really.

jolene555 replied: government assistance exists to do exactly that - assist. i will tell you all that i am on government aide right now, and i am staying home with my daughter. i was put on aide when i found out i was pregnant, and to my surprise my parents had canceled my health insurance 6 months prior without telling me. in illinois, any pregnant woman without insurance is automatically (meaning she could make 6 figures) put on medicaid if they ask for it. it doesn't help that my fiance' happens to be in a field that has been greatly outsourced in recent years, and that i was a student without much saved up.

basically, what the other's have said is correct. i can't get a decent job until i finish college. without a decent job there's no way i can pay for daycare. what works better is having a granted that i am going to stay home with georgia and barry can work 3 jobs if need be. we are not proud, or even happy, to be on aide. it's humiliating and depressing, but we would not be on it if we didn't want to ensure this little girl's health and well-being.

they're going to help me go back to school and to take care of my family until we're completely able to do so on our own.

i don't take any offence to what people might say about the situation i am in, because everyone is ignorant (to the truest form of the word) when it comes to my life and my family. just remember that before you grab your stones and start throwing, that sometimes things might not always work out the way you wanted.

kit_kats_mom replied: That's great that they are helping you with your education. That's what I mean, people in your situation, who are helping themselves and living frugally deserve a hand.

Boys r us replied: and I totally agree! I can sincerely say that didn't mean to offend anyone!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

Yep! See this one a lot since DH is in the car business. This is the exact thing I hate and the point that I think Nichole was trying to get across.

I agree that you should use the assistance for just that purpose, ASSISTANCE. I'm not so proud that I wouldn't use it myself if I needed to. Even though I am a SAHM. If I worked my salary would never cover childcare so it would be pointless. DH and I were at a point last year that we almost needed it. I think it is great that it is out there for those who need it.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

That is so loving and sweet and very true. We could starve ourselves so our kids could have more, but THEY come first. You are doing a great job and you have nothing to be ashamed of!!

mama3x replied: My needing gov't assistance actually came after my DD was born. DH got himself into a mess of debt (that still exists) and I had to quit my hjob when I got pg with DD due to severe fatigue and nausea.

I don't receive welfare in the sense of a monthly check - preemie DD has been on the WIC program since she came home in August, I was on the WIC program for a year and recently got back on it since I am pg now. I recently applied for the free or reduced lunch program for DS since every dollar counts.

I used to work for the State with Child Protective Services and I saw moms who took all they could get from the State - housing, welfare, food stamps, WIC, lunch programs, free food, etc. I also saw moms who had jobs but still needed assistance because their salaries were so low. I also saw SAHM or colege moms use resources until their kids got to kindergarten or they graduated. And then there's the moms who keep having kids in order to get the gov't $$$ for each one - after all in some states if you do the math, it's more manageable that way. Then they use it for their own luxuries, not caring about the kids' conditions.

It's a shame really that the ones who just use it as needed have to deal with the negative stigmas the greedy ones have created.

coasterqueen replied: I haven't read the other responses yet but yes, I do get very upset when seeing people "abuse" the governmental assistance. I get clearly mad when I work every day while my child is in daycare to help pay for their assistance. The whole topic is too detailed to make a clear response to this though.

All I know is DH and I could have gotten financial assistance MANY times when we were in college after my parents kicked me out of the house. We were so poor it was horrible. Dh and I had too much pride to do this though and instead of accepting it we just worked as many jobs as we had time for. It was horrible but we did it. We also had to take HUGE and I mean HUGE student loans that by the time we are done paying for them we'll have paid the government $500,000 for about $60,000 worth of college education. It's horrible, but what can one do.

I guess my biggest problem is with it is that if children found out that their parents could work and not receive financial assistance how does it show them any responsibility???? They are just going to take advantage of the system themselves, IMO. I think I would be sending a mixed message to Kylie if I was a SAHM receiving assistance, when I should be working and trying to do my part in society. This is how my father tought me.

My dad was a carpentar when I was little and was laid-off every winter. He would get whatever you call that assistance you get while not having a job, but he was constantly trying to find one every winter and my mom often worked two jobs every winter to help out. My dad always taught me you work 2,3,4 jobs to make ends meet if you need to instead of getting assistance. We also went without a LOT of things. We would get only a few new toys for Christmas every year and we wore garage sale clothes. I also had to get a job as soon as I was old enough to get a workers permit and had to buy my own school clothes at that time on. We also didn't take many family vacations either. There was never any extra spending either. But the life I lived made me a better person and made me work harder for what I want and have now.

My SIL was on WIC and financial assistance with her first child and IMO didn't need it or deserve it. Well she's VERY well off now and doesn't appreciate the help she got or the dollars that came out of my pocket to help her. I think that is what burns me is my hard earned money out of my pocket/paycheck and I have to work.

3_call_me_mama replied: I'm experienced in this from 3 angles:
As a child:
my mom was a single mother with 3 kids and an abusive ex when I was little. WE were on welfare until my mom married my dad (actually step dad but the only guy I'd ever consider calling dad). She went 2 weeks one time without food just so we could eat. It killed her pride, self esteem and nearly her physical self. When she met my dad they worked from the bottom up to build his family business to become a profitable success. They were able to get off the system and are very successful now. it really used to irritate my mom how people would comment on welfare and single parents, or stay at home welfare moms. She stayed home with us becasue it would cost more for the state to pay for 3 kids in daycare than we were using by being on assistance.

As a mom:
As a parent myself now, it realy irritates how people misuse the system btu i too recieve WIC for myself cameron and the baby once she's born, and as soemone mentioned it really helps with the grocery bill becasue cheese, milk and cereal are expensive. DH works full time as a network admin. for the state colleges but took a $30,000 pay cut to move back here to VT after we met. And i work, trying to build a successful daycare adn preschool in our town (which is very expensive becasue as expensive as everyone thinks daycare is, it is NOT profitible! I'm lucky that I can get a check each week, and my maternity leave will be like 3 weeks TOPS, becasue I have to go back and make sure all my employees are doing what they are supposed to and such, plus we have a hugh amount of pressure from the state to meet strict requirements for # of kids, # of staff, education levels of staff, etc.


As an owner of a daycare center that recieves subsidized childcare payments:

I am glad there is assistance available for families that need it to pay for child care, when they work. Over half of our kids at the center (we have 36) recieve some form of subsidy. Soem of these recieve it for foster childrne they care for, some of them recieve it for work and others recieve it for either education or family support.

They only issues I have with any of these parents recieving it is the ones that recieve it for education and mistreat it and the ones that recieve it for family support. (OH YEAH and the ones that recieve it for work but work a 6 nour day and leave their kid at daycare for 10+ hours becasue it's paid for!!)
We have a couple families that have ti for education so that they can some day get a good job, but they take 1-2 classes a week and sometimes they are online classes, adn they are authorized 40 hours a week for child care.... travel time, study time, actualy class time..... Now when I was in college 3 years ago, 2 classes took 6 hours, travel was abotu an hour each way, but for these families it is 15 minutes each way (college is in next town), and study tme was about 3 hour per week per class, so 6 hours..... soem how that adds up to far less than 40 hours, especailly cosidering online courses require NO travel and can be done whenever. This really bugs me becasue the parent will leave their chidl at daycare for 8-10 hours and go to class and do what ever else, and won't pick those kids up until at least 5;30 pm, just because they can. That IMO is abusing the system.

Family support is set up so you can have relief from your children due to a stressful home life, major crisis , etc. These people have children, are home wiht them but cannot handle caring for them because the children are too stressful for them. basically in most cases, they cannot control their kids, so they state pays to have someone watch the kids so the parents don't lose it.
(This bugs me because they often have several kids from several fathers and only seem to be able to handle the cute new baby.)


I'm not saying by any means that people on assistance shouldn't be allowed to have more kids, I think that they need to be able to be good parents to the ones that they have before they have more. When Dh and i got married, the priest told us that god wanted us to have children (good thing, I was almost six months pregnant!!), not all the children that we could create but all the childrne we could take care of and love and raise to be good people. So for those that can do this with 5,6,7 or more kids, it is a wonderufl thing and I admire you. But for those that know that 1 or 2 is all they can handle I admire them too.... they know their limits adn love their children as much as anyone..... It only bothers me when people have children for the wrong reasons, such as manipulating a person or to make someone else jealous.
Sorry this is so long...I'll stop before i ramble any more and upset anyone.... I hope i haven't offended anyone It is not my intention, I just wanted to add my
and explain a littel how the daycare piece works.

coasterqueen replied:
I had an aunt (ex-aunt) that used to have more children and we all knew she did it to get more financial assistance.

While I don't think income should say how many kids you have...you do have to look at it this way. A LOT of people determine how many kids on how much they think they can financially afford. I know I'd have a mass of kids if I could think I could afford them. DH is of the same thought. But we both know it's not fair to children to suffer because we want more kids. I know that there's love, etc, but I don't want my children to be depressed growing up etc because we are on assistance and can't afford things for them. Just a personal opinion. Also Dh and I struggled so much growing up and to get out on our own that we want to try to be there for our children financially and we couldn't do that if we had a ton of kids.

coasterqueen replied:
Jo, I don't know where you live in Illinois but there is a program called Kid Care which offers medical insurance for children and families that are low income.


Also where I live in Illinois there are colleges that have daycares on campus which helps parents out. I'm not sure how much it costs, but college is expensive anyways so at least there is student loans one can take to help out.

TeagansMom609 replied: I was on assistance when I was pregnant and couldnt work. (I went into pre-term at 27 weeks. ) But let me tell you how hard it is in NJ to actually get assistance! Its REALLY hard. But the one thing I dont get is how sooooooo many people are on it and are wearing designer clothes and stuff. The welfare dept. was like a fashion show. ( not exactly my style of clothing...Roca Wear, etc) I hated going there and felt so out of place. I was the ONLY white girl there, so I really felt weird! Now that my fiance is out of work and I am the only one working I could really use it again until he goes back but its almost impossible. Which is ashame because I pay taxes for it and im one of the few who actually need it and dont abuse it. I think welfare should be for good hard working people who just need it temporarily to get by.

loveydad replied: Im probably going to be yelled at here too (i hate conterversy)

but I believe sometimes it would be more expensive to make the state pay for daycare than to stay at home with them .

It makes me mad when people abuse the ssystem too but when it's the logical choice, then I think its right.

mummy2girls replied: I am a single mom and cant afford daycare on my own so i get childcare subsidy. and because i am in the low income bracket the jenna is in the alberta healtefit... where everything is covered 100 percent! I am gald that i am helped in some way because i wouldnt be able to do it all on my own otherwise. Everything thing else i pay for on my own!

Im gald that these things are avaliable for people but when people abuse it then i get upset! because the ones that abuse the system take it away from the ones in major need of it.

kimberley replied:
i had to laugh when i read this post because i seriously thought i entered the twilight zone the first time i went into a welfare office. you are so right about the fashion (if you want to call it that) in the office. i saw people decked out in gold and designer clothes with their kids in designer clothes, cell phones, nice cars.... and here i am in my crappy second hand store clothes, my jalopy car and wondering how they are getting all this stuff.

i had a very hard time getting assistance in toronto too. it is not as easy as you may think... not for honest people anyways. i got denied earlier this year because we are just above ($200/mo) the poverty line. i lost my job and my unemployment insurance ended all at the same time forcing us to try to live off of one income which is insane in this city when rent is $1200+ (75% of Jamie's income) and daycare for Jade would be about 600-800/mo and before/after school program about 200-300/mo per child. i was also told that i didn't qualify for any other social services like subsidized daycare or housing and even the food bank . i have relied heavily on my dad to get us by this far but i really need work. Jamie got a second job and his boss flipped out and said it was a conflict of interest (they are in the same warehouse) and he either works his FT with them alone or look for a new job. seems like we will never get ahead but we keep praying and trying.

finally, i just had to comment about the numerous times i have read "my tax dollars spent on those welfare people". remember, some of those welfare people paid THEIR tax dollars for many years to use the system when necessary. i doubt i would have used it at all when i was single. i could have worked ten jobs (i usually had 2 at all times) but when children are involved the choice is different. like someone else said, you love them enough to get the help necessary. that doesn't make you a bad parent.

momof2girls replied: I grew up poor, my mom was a single mom of 3 kids and I can remember her using food stamps when we were small, she went to school and then got back on her feet.
Im glad there was help for her, although it was not much.

Of course I think its sick for anyone to have a child just so they can get more support, anyone that thinks that way does not have any brains.

I also think most people do not realize how easy it is to become a needy person, unless you really have alot of money put away all it takes is for one person to lose their job and not be able to find another one, get behind on your bills, lose where you live, have your car repo, it can happen very easily. Most people just dont think it wont happen to them. NOt me since I grew up poor, I cherish everything I have now and know that it would not take much to lose it. So Im just thankful.

there are people out there that abuse things, no matter what it is.... of course I dont think that is fair it keeps people that really need help from getting it.

jmoa

Kirstenmumof3 replied: I felt that I had to respond to this. My DH works full time, he works very hard. He graduated from Unniversity with an Honours Bachelor of Commerce. We take in 4 students from September to May. We own our home and had to remortgage the house to pay off our debt. I was a stay at home mom for 4 years. From the time Emily was born until she turned 4. I recieved maternity benefits for 6mths after she was born and then after that nothing. When Emily was 8mths old, 4 weeks before Christmas my DH got laid off, okay I can't say that because if you are laid off you can at some point get your job back. But that never happened. We lived on his Employment Insurance and he had to go on a Work Placement. We were down to weeks, his EI was going to run out and luck was on his side. He got a full time job in sales. Life was a bit better, but we never saw him. I've never owned a new car, we have had 4 cars and we've only been married 10 years. Emily was 2 when Spencer was born. Because I was not working there was not Maternity benefits this time. When Emily started school I got a part time job. It wasn't much 4 hours a day. I worked in a Highschool cafeteria for 4 years before I had Claudia. This next part makes me so mad, I was 5 hours short for maternity benenfits, they would not budge. A month before Claudia was born DH took another job. DH's new job meant that we would see him more, but we lost benefits and he took a pay cut. He ABSOLUTELY hated his job! We were so hoping that Claudia would breastfeed, as most of you know the struggle I had to get her to breastfeed. She had to breastfeed, I could not afford to buy formula for her. When Claudia was a year old I couldn't go back to work. This was because of my Mental Illness. I still can't work. DH's new job means. I applied for Disability. Through this we get dental and prescription (my prescriptions alone are $100.00 a month) coverage. DH's income is deducted from my cheque, I don't get much. Claudia is in Subsidized Daycare 3 days a week (not my choice, CAS and because of my mental illness). Now I am not proud of being on Disabiltiy, I'm not proud of the stigma attatched to being on Disability. But I can't work. I have a job waiting for me, my boss cried when I told her yet again that I wouldn't be returning to work. I want to work, I miss the students. But my Psychologist will not give me the okay to go back to work. So for me it's a waiting game. The point I am trying to make is that it's not wrong to be an accectance as long as you are not abusing the system. I know a lot of people who have children and refuse to marry (but still live with) the father of the children so they will get more money. I know a lot of people who drink there cheques away and then go to food banks and clothing banks to get food, diapers, formula and clothing for their children. I also know a lot of people on assitance that are really trying, really want to be off the system. It depends on the person and the circumstance.