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Where do you draw the line? - dog spinoff


luvmykids wrote: I'm curious about this, because as I've said we've noticed some changes in Bogie. I'm feeling bad, like maybe we inadvertantly taught him this bad behavior because we HAVE allowed and actually praised him for keeping other dogs and coyotes out of our yard. Never ever would we encourage him to full out attack another dog, but living where we do so many idiots let their dogs roam and many times there have been strange dogs in our yard....I don't want them near the kids or horses and Bogie does a good job chasing them off. But I've been wondering if that is related to or the cause of the new problems with him, and not really sure if he's protective or aggressive.

I'm trying to decide for myself, so I'm really just wanting to hear others opinions.

mckayleesmom replied: That is hard to draw the line. I would say that if they are in his yard and he attacked..it is because he was protecting his family...However..I would observe weather he does this when your kids are around or if he is more cautious if they are.

Say if a dog got in my yard and a strange dog came in...I would want gunner to protect my kids till I could get their.

Its hard..you want them for protection, but what if by accident your kids got caught up in it...

cameragirl21 replied: I think the important thing is to be fully aware of the dog's behavior and limitations. For example, my GSD growing up tried to get out to attack the mailman and a couple times he did...broke right through our screen door and luckily I was there to get him but I was just a kid and my dad was the alpha dog so he didn't listen as well to me and getting him wasn't super easy. He also bit one of my friends, not really hard or bad but he bit her so we were cautious to allow him to be out and about when I had new friends over that he didn't know. We could have him out loose with us but never let other touch him...when I walked him and people asked if they could pet him or if their kids could pet him I always politely said that he bites and that it's not a good idea.
One day, my mom and I were out in the front yard with him and our neighbor lady came by with her 4 year old son and daughter who was still in a stroller. Her son asked if his mom if he could pet my dog and even though my mom and I kept saying he bites and it's not a good idea the boy's mom told him to go ahead. blink.gif
Well, my mom was by the house with my dog but I was at the edge of the yard talking to them and so the boy started walking toward my dog, who literally started charging at him like a stallion. So I screamed at my dog and literally ran in between him and that boy. My mom came and got my dog by the collar. After all this, the lady said, "why don't you go up to the dog with Jennifer...." blink.gif wacko.gif She still wanted her son to go up to my dog after witnessing that. dry.gif So my mom and I firmly said he can't and that is what I mean by knowing the dog's limitations. My dog was not a bad dog and there was no reason for us not to keep him but he was aggressive by nature, his mom was the same way and I think it's just inherited so we knew that we couldn't let strangers pet him or touch him. He was gorgeous and everyone wanted to see him but like I said, we were fully aware of his limitations. We'd never, in a million years let him roam around loose either.
I don't really think there are bad dogs, just bad owners. I've seen some very nice Pits, to where I've literally had them in my lap with my face right in theirs where they could have easily bitten my nose right off and they didn't. Same story with Rottweilers.
Once I was on the beach here at Crandon Park in Key Biscayne and a guy was walking with his Rott, at that beach dogs are allowed. And without asking I grabbed the dog by the chin and kissed its nose...the owner literally said, "OMG...." And the dog didn't bite me but if he had it would have been my own fault and I was totally aware of that. But if his dog had charged me for no reason or just for being there then that guy shouldn't have had that dog out and about on a crowded beach. Again, to me it's all about knowing the dog's limitations.

luvmykids replied: So Jennifer, you think aggressive dogs shouldn't automatically be put down? As long as the owner is aware and responsible? I'm only asking because I know some people feel if a dog shows any signs of aggression at all they shouldn't be around. I don't necessarily agree with that but at the same time don't know what the line is. If your dog had bitten that child would that have been taking the aggression too far? Or would it have been a matter of the dog being provoked since the kid wouldn't take no for an answer?

mckayleesmom replied:
I think aggression if its in the form of protection is one thing....agression just to be agressive is another. Just like yesterday...the dogs were playing and Molly was just sitting there, so it wasn't provoked and that is wrong.

cameragirl21 replied: No, Monica, I don't necessarily think aggressive dogs should be put down. If my dog had bitten that boy, remember, that boy was on my dog's yard at his mom's insistence after my mom and I both told them that the dog WILL bite. We were able to control him and keep him from biting that boy.
Now, if we had trained our dog to be mean and bite and told him to go bite that boy for no reason, that is another story but I think too much attention is spent on having the dog put down in this case and not enough on punishing the owners for being irresponsible. dry.gif
Just as I would blame parents of a kid who is a bad kid, I also blame dog owners if a dog is a bad dog. Some kids are more unruly than others and parents hopefully know their kids' limitations. If your child is a bully, don't leave him/her alone with a much smaller child, etc. Same thing imo for dog owners. If we had a sweet, gentle dog we'd have happily let this boy or anyone else pet him but we knew that our dog did not want that boy to pet him so we were there to make sure it didn't happen.

jcc64 replied:

I think you sort of answered your own question, Monica. Dogs don't differentiate between pets and wild animals, and if you've encouraged or praised his aggression with the coyotes, then he's come to see aggression as something that will endear him to his pack leaders (you). If you want to keep a dog as protection and train him that way, then he will likely see any animal as a threat and will always have the potential for aggression. Pitbulls have earned their reputation for aggression as a result of drug dealers and gang bangers who TRAIN them as weapons. They are NOT born that way.
If you want a sweet lovable family pet, then you cannot praise ANY form of aggressive behavior, even when it suits your purposes, b/c your dog is not capable of knowing which animal is ok, and which isn't. To him, they're all one and the same.
In the right hands, I do believe virtually all dogs with behavior problems are capable of rehabilitation. Dogs are just a reflection of their owners. If you give them the right message, they will comply because their whole goal in life is to please their owner.
This was a long way of saying that you are giving your dog mixed messages, and that is not his fault. I wouldn't give up on him Monica, but I would find a way to remediate his behavior, and that entails making a decision about what you want his role in your family to be. GL

luvmykids replied: Good points, Jeanne. I guess it suprised us because in the past when company has come and brought their dogs, he's been fine with it even if he just chased a coyote away...we wrongly assumed he based it on signals from us, like "This dog is ok" or "That dog needs to go". He never fought with those dogs, it seemed like he was content to run them off by giving them whatever signals dogs give.

Do you have any tips for re-training in that kind of situation?

jcc64 replied: Absolutely everything I know about dog psychology and training I learned from Cesar Millan, aka "The Dog Whisperer." I've read his books, I watch his shows religiously, and every one of his suggestions I've used have been enormously helpful. I highly recommend you watch a couple of episodes on National Geographic Channel on Friday nights. (also rerun all week long)

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I draw the line at ANY sign of aggression toward their families or people who are obviously no threat in their homes (ie someone who has been there,is interacting with the family and dog calmly). As much as we come to love them and treat them as 'family' they are animals and can do major damage if they decide to turn. If they show any aggression toward a child then I believe keeping them around is just asking for something very bad to happen!

ETA~ Monica I think there is a HUGE difference between protectiveness and aggression. If Bogie is only showing protective behavior toward strange dogs or people who come up to the house-that is totally different than him growling at one of the kids or you.

I do also believe (from experience) that if a dog kills another animal (like Molly bawling.gif ) without cause that they need to be put down.

luvmykids replied:
He has only shown aggression towards one person that I know of, a UPS driver who called to tell me he was at the gate and my dog wouldn't let him in. Sure enough when I got out there, Bogie was not happy about something to do with that guy. A lot of people are wary of him at first, I think thats mostly due to his size, he is HUGE even for a lab and he has a deep bark that I think many people assume is threatening and he doesn't stop barking until either he recognizes the person or we tell him it's ok, but it's still not a mean bark, kwim?

He coexists just fine with all seven dogs who live in the houses along our fence line too, it's something about small dogs and it's new and I'm stumped.

lisar replied: My uncle has an old english bull dog and he has been taught to keep other dogs out of their yard and things like that. However when I show up with one of mine he is fine with it. He doesnt show all the aggression. He doesnt play with my dog but he doesnt try and eat my dog either.


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