What do you think of this - Controversial Topic

My2Beauties wrote: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29878919/page/2/

I believe we may have discussed this before? I don't know I'm wishy washy I don't thin I could ever do anything like this nomatter what type of pain I was in.

Crystalina replied: I think it's great really. Like I said that last time we talked about this, we have enough compassion for animals to do it to them then why not people? We are "above" animals yet some people would rather put a dog to sleep d/t it's discomfort during the death process (old age) then to allow the same be done for a human? No matter how much I run that through my mind it is just an absurd way of thinking IMO. I do not agree that animals should be put to sleep (unless they are horses and other animals that can not have the proper quality of life) d/t broken legs or anything else that is not life threatening. Putting an animal to sleep just because it's cheaper then fixing it's leg is out of the question for me.
I also think that the person needs to be 100% sane to agree and sign any papers saying they agree to this. An old person with Alzhiemers....no. Their disease is very sad but does not constitute a suicide. A person in pain d/t a cancer that can not be cured...yes. Some people could wait to die and some may want to choose when they do. I think they should have that right and do it in a matter other then hanging, shooting or over-dosing.

boyohboyohboy replied: I feel as a nurse when we provide comfort care for end of life patience we basically do the same thing for them when providing the medications to make them comfortable..its not usually the disease they die from its the meds they are given in the end..
sometimes I have a hard time with that thought.

Crystalina replied:
Do those drugs keep them alert enough to know what's going on? Just wondering. I've seen some patients who are kept "comfortable" and they are so "out of it" they have no clue what's going on at all.

:ETA: To me that's no quality of life at all.

luvbug00 replied: I think if we are talking about adults. You have the right to do with your body as you see fit as long as you are harming no other living being in the prosses.

* I say this in context to this situation only. i do not have this belief when it comes to pro-life/pro choise debate as the interpertation of what a living being is differant to many people. *

MyBlueEyedBabies replied: I agree with it... though I will say my mother has ALzheimers and though she is still mostly 'there' I can guarantee she would prefer choosing to die once she reaches the point of not remembering any of us. She is already so frustrated with her memory and inability to properly care for herself that she spends most of her time angry and that is not a quality she would have ever wanted in her life. She is still my mom but I see the days in (unfortunately) the not to distant future where the disease will be in control of her brain and she will not be my mom anymore. There is no way she would ever want to live like that.

Crystalina replied:
I'm so sorry. I know how painful Alz. is. I worked with Alz. patients for yrs and once Gab is in school I'm going back to them. My Oma has not yet diagnosed (her doc is a twit!) but she has dementia right now.
Personally, for me, I would want to be dead as well if I could not remember my kids but I've seen with many patients where they get that 5 minutes, 30 mins, sometimes even an hour of clarity and they know just what is happening to them. Alz is a tough one.

coasterqueen replied:
so true.

Danalana replied: Let me preface my opinion by saying that I have watched my mother suffer for years...she has various health problems, and we thought she was going to die a few times. She has had a very poor quality of life for a long time. I can certainly understand why people in chronic pain would want to end it all. I can also understand family memers not wanting to watch the suffering anymore. However, I do not believe euthanasia is right. My faith says that humans have souls and it's not our decision as to when somebody leaves this earth. Of course, someone who is brain-dead or on life support is different. Even signing a DNR (do not resuscitate) is different. Opting out of life-saving measures and receiving a lethal dose of some sort of cocktail are on completely different levels.
As I said, I have watched a loved one suffer, so I am not unsympathetic...it's one of the worst things I can imagine. Thank God my mother now has a grandson and another one on the way to look forward to. It really has changed things for her, even though she still deals with chronic pain.
Anyway, that's my opinion.

cameragirl21 replied:
ok, I have a question about this. And I do not mean to start a debate at all, I just want to understand.
If you feel that it's not up to us to decide when humans leave this earth, and as I understand it, this is a fairly common right wing outlook, then why do so many right wingers support capital punishment?
I personally am, for the most part, against capital punishment (with some exceptions) but NOT because I have any sympathy for criminals but rather for just the reason you mentioned, Dana, because I feel it is not up to us to decide who gets to live and who doesn't, no matter how horrific the crime committed. I do believe in exceptions, mainly for those who cannot be contained, for instance, Ted Bundy escaped from prison twice and both times killed people, at one point, a 12 year old girl was killed in one of his escapes so for him, absolutely, remove him from the planet so as to keep others safe but beyond that, I believe that we should keep prisoners contained and away from society and fed but not too comfortable if you kwim.
I am seriously curious how people who don't support euthanasia reconcile their belief in capital punishment.
As for the OP, I think it's a sad reality but I guess I would have to support it. I am saddened that we have not come far enough in medicine to make this a moot point. It's amazing that doctors can transplant organs but can't figure out diseases like Alzheimer's and ALS, among others.

Danalana replied: Capital punishment was even enforced in the Bible. That was the punishment for certain crimes, and still is today. There are times I have been on the fence about this issue, but most of the time I have no problem with it. Would I want to be the one to pull the switch? I doubt it. Although, in some cases, I'm not sure I would have a problem doing it. Euthanasia is assisted suicide, and suicide is (according to MY faith) a sin. Please, please don't everybody go crazy! Capital punishment is the law of the land, which the Bible also said we have to obey. That's why it's different to me. Again, just my opinion.

cameragirl21 replied:
Thanks for the explanation, Dana, it makes sense. My good friend, who is not exactly a right winger but not a lefty like me either sees it exactly the same way--says it's ordered in the bible therefore it must be right.
I, personally feel the bible is mostly allegorical (jmo) and also feel that if God wants someone killed He should do it Himself and not put us up to the task (again jmo).
But your explanation makes sense to me, so thanks for that.

Danalana replied: Very welcome...I'm glad it made sense.
And hey, it's not easy for me either. I happen to be more soft-hearted than the average bear, so I don't say those things in apathy. In fact, some of us ladies from my church take food to the jail and feed the prisoners once a month
I saw an interview with a man on death row who had converted to christianity while in prison. He said he knew he was forgiven by God and believed he deserved death for his crimes. He was completely peaceful and ready to go. of course, with the way death row is set up, who knows when that will actually be.

boyohboyohboy replied:
no the drugs do not keep them awake or aware..
most of the time, my experience has been with a morphine type drug, ie, roxinal or oxycontin, where the doses are given in small amounts frequently and they build up in the system and then supress the respitory and cardiac rate..and then death..
they are asleep way before then.

Crystalina replied: **to address the capital punishment issue, but not trying to change the content of the original OP**

I don't consider my self **way left** although I do lean that side more times then not but I believe 100% in capital punishment. I hate feeding them. I used to be a corrections officer and I realize that some of the guys are very nice but an eye for an eye IMO. We should do like they do in the sandy countries...you rape, *it* gets cut off. You steal...bye, bye hand. You kill someone...you die. I think if we did things like that people would think twice. And there would be no second chance. You pay the first time you do it. Unless it's a child of course.

cameragirl21 replied:
Crystal, you know I love you and usually agree with you but I like to think that we are way above those sandy countries which is part and parcel for why I lean pretty far to the right in terms of how we as a nation and we as the free, modernized world deal with them.
Also, in those sandy countries, a girl can be gang raped and her rapists will go unpunished while the girl will be put to death by her own family, usually her father because she "tempted" the rapists and shamed the family.
Imo, those sandy countries are breeding grounds for stone age thinking barbarians and as I said, I like to think of us as light years ahead of them.
As for the topic of capital punishment--I subscribe to the thinking that wonders why we kill people who kill people to teach people that killing people is wrong...?

jcc64 replied: Wow, that story was just so....sad. But I do believe that we should have the right to decide when we want to end our own lives, and that there should be legal assistance with a rigorous screening process available to mentally competent, consenting adults. While we all are going to die, having some measure of control over the process is the last gift we can give to a loved one or ourselves, and I fully support it.
My dad died of kidney cancer, and he was in complete control over the conditions of his own death. The hospice people interviewed him, asked him how much sedation, if any, he wanted, and what effect that would have on his mental faculties as well as his pain. He wanted everything they could give him, and within two days, he was dead. Very peacefully, in his own home, dignity in tact, with his dogs beside him on his own bed, and all of us at his side. No doctors, no machines, just us. Thank god he had that option available to him. Hospice workers are angels among us.
I know people have their own spirtual beliefs, but I would be very angry if someone else's religious dogma denied that experience to my father.

Crystalina replied:
I used to believe the way you do Jennifer but then I was locked up with them for 8 hours a day and started thinking differently. I mean, 90% of them have learned nothing. They are planning their next crime before they even get out! One guy looked really innocent (aren't they all). But he appeared to be a nice guy and then he tells me he's in there for murdering someone. As he said it he had a grin on his face. He didn't feel sorry at all. Most of the murders keep their mouths shut because they don't want you to know what their in for. You could always tell which ones killed by their silence. They know it's wrong. This guy bragged about it. The thieves bragged. The gangsters bragged. We had a saying as they were getting processed out to go home. We (not me because I thought it was mean) would say, "See you next week". Sure enough within a few weeks, months they come back. Taxpayers are paying for them. They don't learn. They use the prison as a camp. To meet their buddies and plot their next crime. Once in awhile you get the guy who is really sorry, he messed up, he leaves and never comes back. I just get tired of their cockyness (<---probably not a word). It's hard to feel sorry for them when you actually see and hear them working on their next crime either outside the gates or inside.

cameragirl21 replied:
Oh, I see what you mean, Crystal, but this is why I don't believe they should get out, ever. In my system, if you murder someone, you will NEVER see the sun again, ever, you spend the rest of your miserable little life in a six by six cell watching the walls and doing hard labor where it's needed (which I realize may be outside so they will see the sun that way but I'd not let them enjoy a moment outside, in the free world again, ever.
And cockiness is a word, it's just spelled with an i.

stella6979 replied:
I absolutely agree. I would much rather have my taxes spent on a .25 cent bullet than spent paying for their room and board.
As for the OP, Jeanne said it best for me.

My2Beauties replied: As far as the capital punishment thing goes, I don't believe in it. The reason being is because if you look at the percentage of black criminals on death row it's light years higher than the percentage of white murderers on death row, the majority of them get life with no parole and in some cases chance of parole. It has to do with who has the money, the good lawyer and the judge you get. Also the state, the number of people on death row in Texas is unbelievably high compared to other states per capita. There are just too many inconsistencies and I watched a show about people in prison for crimes they didn't commit, and the estimate of the # of people in there for crimes they didn't commit is ridiculous. I'd hate to think we killed someone who was innocent. I know there is DNA testing but it still happens. How can you teach people that murdering is wrong by murdering someone....absolutely makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm still hung on the OP, I can see Jeanne's point of view for her father etc...I know "I" personally could not kill myself by any means necessary I would never have the guts to do it because I'm such an optimist in the back of my mind I'd be wishing and hoping for that cure or that one drug that could prolong my life and make the quality of my life better. I guess it's a hard issue to speak on unless you live it yourself day in and day out.

Crystalina replied:
I've watched shows about that as well and I agree that it's easier to blame the black man who cannot afford the best lawyer. That's been going on for ages although back in the day the "black man" didn't get the luxury of even the shadiest of lawyers. I think before they are injected, fried or gassed (do they even still do that one?) they should be able to get DNA tested and have the state pay for a GOOD lawyer if they cannot afford it. That is still cheaper then housing them for years. I do feel bad for the those who are scapegoats and wrongfully in prison but for the rest of them who have rock solid evidence of their crime I believe an eye for an eye.


And thank you Jennifer for cockiness. I don't spell that word too often.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I completely agree with you Dana! 100% Especially this...
My faith says that humans have souls and it's not our decision as to when somebody leaves this earth.

For the record...I do not think capital punishment is ok. The evil sinner side of me would love to have all rapists, murderers, etc. beaten and tortured...but I do not believe it is right to use the "eye for an eye" rule. Even though the Bible says to obey the law of the land...for example: if that law says you can not worship Christ, God would not want you to follow it. KWIM? The OT used captial punishment, but I do not believe today that it is biblically supported by the NT. If I am missing something in the NT...please inform me....I'm all for studying up on it.

Boo&BugsMom replied: From the article...



This is SUCH a contradiction, IMO. So he's using the excuse that since he isn't pulling a trigger, or injecting someone he isn't assiting the suicide??? That's ridiculous, IMO and no different...he is still assisting the suicide...just not physically...he's still guiding them to do it, which is still assisting if you ask me. Sorry...that one just caught my eye.

A&A'smommy replied:
I agree with this!!!

My grandfather found out about six months ago that he had cancer and of course him and his wife decided to try and fight it even though the chances of it working was only like 20%. After surgery and chemo and then becoming SO weak that he was barely living a life they decided to stop the chemo he was in SOOO much pain it was miserable seeing him like that, he was a christian but Wednesday morning of last week he told his wife that he understood why people commited suicide and if he could he would grab a pencile and stick it through his heart needless to say she went to pieces but he DID NOT commit suicide because for one he knew that it was wrong and secondly because he couldn't do that too his wife. Saturday morning very early he passed away

jcc64 replied: I'm so sorry to hear this, Jessy. Maybe God heard his call??

Crystalina replied: 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Danalana replied: I'm so sorry to hear about your grandfather, Jess
As far as death and everything goes, I honestly feel like we hold them here sometimes. They can sense that it's not alright with us and they just can't let go. I know that has nothing to do with the topic, but it's something I believe to be true.

A&A'smommy replied:
Her family had planned a family reuion for Saturday and earlier that week he had told his brother that he was about to go to a family reuion but he didn't mean the one for her family. A lot of her family lives out of town so we feel like he waited until her family got here to let go because that is when it happened He was such a wonderful man!!!

A&A'smommy replied:
yeah but you have to remember God didn't send his son to completely remove what the OT says he only came to make it where we didn't have to sacrifice a lamb to ask for forgiveness and so that we could come to him directly and not through a priest.

Mathew 5:17-20
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yes he did change some things there is even a verse that says that but he never obolished capital punishment.


I know in some instances God can show grace and mercy, and its one thing I do not believe we should fight against
http://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I need to know which book it's from first or I can't look them up.

I will also have to figure out who is writing it, and who the author is talking to as he is writing. Important stuff to know before knowing what it really means.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I totally agree...I will have to do some studying and figure some stuff out. Until then, I just can't be convicted to think God would be ok with taking someone's life. There is a time in the OT where God told the people to stop using capital punishment as well...during Moses time I believe. They even reference it in The 10 Commandments movie.

It's also really important to know the audience of the verses that were written...who wrote it and to whom the author was speaking to when he wrote it...to understand what was going on at that time, or else some people will just open it up, read only those versus and take it in a different context.

Thank you for inspiring me to dealve into this...I needed a kick in the pants...I've been horrible at reading my Bible regularly lately. This will be a good one for me, considering this is one topic where I sit on the fence ALL the time about.

Still think suicide is wrong though...and Euthanasia is just that, IMO.

Crystalina replied:
Yeah, the name would help wouldn't it. Sorry. It's Exodus (Second book of Moses).

coasterqueen replied:
This is why I will never understand religion to it's fullest. Totally OT, but if there was only one God, there should only be ONE version of the bible. Man is so flawed.

Danalana replied: Still off-topic but Karen, here's something to ponder. Even in the days of Jesus, there were "religious" people (pharisees, saducees, etc...) who insisted on doing things a certain way, even though Jesus had come to do away with the "law". There will always be people who want to add to and take away from. That's why there are so many denominations...there were back then too. That's why I like cross-referencing and studying what words mean in Hebrew. Our pastor encourages us to get into it and study for ourselves, instead of just listening to his words...I really like that

coasterqueen replied:
I know, but I think those who don't truly take religion in, at least for those IRL I've talked to it's because if it is God's WORD, then there should only be one version of it. If denominations, etc are taking it and trying to make it the WORD that fits their beliefs that doesn't really make it God's WORD anymore.

Anyways, I know OT, and I'll let it go. It just frustrates me and confuses me.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Thank you.

These are also OT though, so I'll have to try and find some NT cross references.

cameragirl21 replied: obviously, the bible is open to interpretation, which is why we have so many religions and yet so few texts.
I personally think that the meaning of eye for an eye is simply that the punishment should not exceed the crime, not that you should physically do to the criminal what he did to his/her victim.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Jennifer...you will probably wet yourself...I agree with you!!!

I also do not believe that "Spoil the rod, spoil the child" means you should spank your children (and this is coming from a pro-spanking parent now mind you). To me, the "rod" isn't a literal rod. To my understand through studying it means simply to discipline your child so the child doesn't become spoiled.

A&A'smommy replied:
I was actually listening to Rick and Bubba yesterday morning and there was a preacher (or a teacher if you heard it you would understand why I said that) he also encourages people to study the hebrew language (or cross reference if you get confused) because words change meanings even now if you were to say cool it doesn't neccessarily MEAN that it felt cool to the touch it can also means awesome. So if you come across something that you don't really understand then it would really benefit you to study the Hebrew meaning of the word, and no not everything is literal Jesus told LOTS of parables and stories to help us understand things.
He also told us to beware of those who take and add to his word that is where SOME not all but SOME denominations come from. BUT when you accept Jesus into your heart and study the word of God and grow then comes discernment that he GIVES us, it isn't easy for everyone though.