Shal we open the floodgates - and have a healthy debate?

C&K*s Mommie wrote: I touched on the subject of The Evolution Theory vs Creationism. And the Big Bang theory was also mentioned, too. What are your thoughts on this subject? Healthy debates, of course


PrairieMom, please add your , I enjoy hearing views from opposing sides, or even the same side as myself but with thoughts that far more advanced so that I may learn from it.

coasterqueen replied: Oy! I took a semester on evolution vs. creationism. It was a very intense class but enjoyable. I'm not sure I can debate this at this moment, the thought of typing out my whole spiel kinda hurts my brain. It's such a touchy subject. Not in the sense of touchy debate-wise, just there are a LOT of points to be made on both sides. I have no real idea where exactly I fall w/my feelings on this. Faith or actual hard factual science. I will always believe in a higher being, but not sure how far I really go with it. I do believe more of the evolution side for sure.

Edit: I tried to get a lot of my questions answered by my pastor regarding how they can deny science, etc and never really got a factual answer...it was all based on faith and it's hard for me to base everything on just faith alone.

holley79 replied: I hope it can stay healthy. I don't know what I would say. i'll just sit back and be an observer for the time.

Jackie012007 replied: oooh what a toughy... I also took a class on this subject, and yeah there is enough information to support both sides, so much that they can make an entire semester's worth of cirriculum on it!!!

I'm not terribly religious, as I wasn't raised that way. I know about the creation story because I had to read parts of the bible for an ancient texts class... and I guess I am one of those people who need evidence. I tend to lean more towards evolution because there is a lot of physical evidence to support it. But who knows, with technology now they are finding what they believe are remains of the arc and such, so maybe someday we will have just as much evidence of the creation story as well. I do believe in a higher being, but there are many parts of the traditional Bible that I do not agree with, making it hard for me to become active in a religious organization

C&K*s Mommie replied: Karen, and Jackie you two are right, it is an extensive topic to discuss, but you hit on the basic points of your thoughts. I appreciate that!

Holley~ You are like me, I like to observe and listen to the opinions of others, moreso than to get into the middle of it... unless I feel strongly about it.

lisar replied: I dont know what I would say either. My DH went to a christian school his entire life and I on the other hand never went to church until I was like 15. So I tend to lean towards the I need physical evidence to prove something to me. However I am not pushing my children in either direction. My Dh's parents go to church every week and Lexi goes with them all the time. Lexi also went to a christian private school for Pre-K. I want her to have the options but I also want her to have the facts on both side before she has to make a decision one day. Raygen is still young so she doesnt know either way. Lexi I dont think understands it all cause when she prays for snow (in the middle of the summer in florida) and dont get it she thinks God let her down. I try explaining it to her that we just dont live where there is snow. So I dont push my beliefs on them and my DH dont push his. But anytime she has questions about anything (like when my Grand-father died a month ago) I sent her to her daddy so that he could explain heaven and everything to her. I do believe there is a higher power so please dont get me wrong. I just dont believe in it as much as others and I think I believe in it in a diffrent way than others might.

Please dont take this wrong or hate me. I almost didnt respond to this at all.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Not in any way could you be frowned upon (or hated) or considered to have a wrong 'opinion'. Your opinion is your opinion, and no one can judge you for having one that differs. This is a time to discuss your thoughts. I am not the most eloquent with words, but please know that your thoughts/opinions are highly appreciated. Thanks for sharing them! This is what I was asking for, your opinions on this subject. Mine differ, but you are no less my equal than the next person. This, to me, is the quickest avenue to learning about things, than it would be to ask every fifth person on the street what their thoughts were. KWIM? Thanks for sharing!

TheOaf66 replied: I can see how evolution could be used as an argument but being a strong Christian I will always believe creationism and think evolution is an interesting idea but I don't believe in it or the Big Bang Theory, but everyone has their own beliefs

coasterqueen replied:
This is interesting because I've struggled all my life trying to figure out what I 'should' believe. Do I believe the physical evidence or what my mom tells me? Granted we, as children, believe a lot of what our parents tell us, i.e. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

I just have had so many questions all my life and have not gotten the answers enough to make a decision. So I always am curious why someone takes to faith and just ignores the physical evidence of it all. Is it because your parents taught you that so that's just what you are going to believe? Or do you believe there is no real physical evidence to evolutionism? You don't have to share if you don't want. I'm not posting to bash you. I'm just trying to solve it all in my mind. I know my church wants me to take that leap of faith and believe creationism and not evolution, but IMO they can't give me the physical evidence to do this, science can.

ETA: My husband grew up all his life to believe in God and nothing else. Then he started in middle school/high school and he found a different side to the story. He felt lied to and betrayed that he was never given the 'other' side to things. He now believes completely in evolutionism, therefore isn't any help in soul searching for me and my confusion

TheOaf66 replied: well if you're going based on physical evidence, there is physical evidence to support creationism as well. For me it is more of a faith thing I guess, I have been a Christian since I was young and just simply don't accept anything else and the basic question comes into play if we developed from apes or whatever they had to come from somewhere. The scientific evidence that supports evolution can really be skewed in my opinion. You can take a set of bones etc and say "yep it was a half man/half monkey and then it evolved into a human", I just don't buy it but like I said, I don't judge people for what they believe, for me it is just strong faith in religion.

coasterqueen replied:
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

You know you made some good points. I find myself wondering IF this earth was formed through creationism and then evolution took over?. I keep asking my pastor if there is room to believe both. He tells me yes, but that is as far as he goes w/the conversation.

I can't remember the creationism side of things about the rest of the planets, solar system. Anyone care to share that side? I honestly can't remember that from my class.

luvmykids replied:
My answer to this would only be that it isn't what I "should" believe but what I do believe. JMHO, I don't believe you can pick and choose some parts of the Bible to believe and not believe others so for me personally, if I believe any of it, I believe all of it. To me, thats what faith really boils down to, believing in things you can't necessarily see or touch or prove because that is the essence of faith itself. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have strong enough faith to believe it without "evidence" because for me, that is part of the very definition of faith.

I don't think anyone is right or wrong but for me personally I believe 100% in Creation because by faith I choose to take Gods word for it. I don't mean this directed at anyone or to come across that anyone has "less" faith, I've done my share of searching and spent many years trying to figure out what I believe on my own vs. what I "should" believe and came to my own conclusions. I guess my faith is strengthened when prayers are answered in other areas and over the years I've learned that I can have absolute faith in God and what He's said in the Bible so I don't even feel the need anymore to question bits and pieces.

Don't know if that shed any light but it's how I feel.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied: I have a rather different/difficult position on this one.

On the one hand, I am a Christian, I believe in the bible, I believe in Jesus. But I also know that the bible was written by man and that man is fallible. Not only that, but the bible was written by man in a time when man thought that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe. We now know both those things to be untrue. I believe the story of Creation. To an extent.

However, I am also a scientist. I work in a lab, I took many, many biology, chemistry, physics courses. I have a hard time believing something that requires such a leap of faith. And Creationism does require a leap of faith.
I have worked through this many times in my own mind and also in Sunday school. My personal beliefs are different from what church teaches me, but I have reconciled them inside myself. And I believe that someday, I'll know the truth.

Here is what I have come up with. I believe that God did create the earth and all the creatures on it. I also believe that He allowed us to change with the changing world. Creation tells us that God created the world in 6 days and on the 7th he rested. Well, who is to say that God's day only has 24 hours in it? Perhaps God's day lasts millenia. And during those millenia, the earth was continually changing, and as a consequence, so were God's creatures. Including man.

***This is only my personal belief. I tend to straddle the fence on this issue, believing in both creation and evolution. I honestly hope I didn't offend anyone with this.***

coasterqueen replied:
Oh Kelly, you are thinking for me. This is basically how I see it. And when I've explained a lot of this to my pastor he says it's ok to believe this way. Although the majority of the congregation would not think this is ok. He's a bit more liberal than the congregation (which is 3/4 elderly).

I really think you can believe both, somehow. The whole issue on the bible is my hang up. Just like you mentioned.

THanks for saying how you feel on the subject because you said what I was really trying to say.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied: You're welcome, Karen. It has taken me nearly half of my 30 years to reach this point. I was raised Catholic, but have had an affinity for science since grade school. Not an easy combination by any stretch. I also tend to not speak out loud on the subject in church. Except in my Sunday school class, which is all young adults. I also attend a very much "older" church. Average age is probably in the 60s.

DansMom replied: Which creation story are we talking about? Here is some text from the Apache story:

Creator wiped his sweating face and rubbed his hands together, thrusting them downward. Behold! A shining cloud upon which sat a little girl.
"Stand up and tell me where are you going," said Creator. But she did not reply. He rubbed his eyes again and offered his right hand to the Girl-Without-Parents.
"Where did you come from?" she asked, grasping his hand.
"From the east where it is now light," he replied, stepping upon her cloud.
"Where is the earth?" she asked.
"Where is the sky?" he asked, and sang, "I am thinking, thinking, thinking what I shall create next." He sang four times, which was the magic number.

Every culture and every religion has stories about the origins of life. The idea that one religion has the "right and literally accurate" story because its own writings say so---it's not reasonable to believe that while being aware of and accepting of other cultures, in my opinion. I'm not at all denigrating Christianity or faith or people who believe these things---I'm just explaining that it's culturally exclusive, just as much so as the Apache story, and that's why I can't take any of the creation accounts literally. One does have to choose rejection not just of scientific evidence, but other cultural beliefs and histories, in order to claim that what is written in a regional, Judeo-Christian document is literally and truly how the world was created. I know plenty of Christians who take a broader, less literal view based on their exposure to other creation stories and modern scientific data about the age of the earth. I'd like to see a world in which all creation stories are honored/appreciated in Social Studies, and where religious stories aren't part of science classes.

luvmykids replied:
ITA Kelly, my "faith" just makes me have to add that although man is fallible, it was also divinely inspired and written by men of strong faith and character. Doesn't mean it may not be flawed, just that I don't think that means it's "made up" or "embellished". I hope that came across the way I mean it and didn't offend you or anyone else.

The other thing is that I can absolutely see the appeal of the science side of evolution but for me faith is knowing from the heart and science is from the head. I think most leaps of faith require allowing "override" of your head .....

I do believe there is room to believe both and again, that no one is right or wrong.

lisar replied:
That is why I am giving my children the option and not pushing either one on them. I do not mind when people do that cause that is their beliefs they want thier children raised the way they want them to. I am just giving mine the option. Mainly because I believe one way and my DH belives another way. So they have both of us to hear our responses.

I could get into alot more detail on why my beliefs are the way they are but I dont like to do that because some people take offense to it. Some dont but some do.

PrairieMom replied:
I was gonna, but she asked for no debates, so i was being a good girl!

TheOaf66 replied: there's a switch

toady_buckshot_noodle replied: There is no debate to have in my opinion. Just read Genesis.

PrairieMom replied: Heres my thoughts without reading everything everyone else has said.

I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. I guess it depends on how literally you take the bible. I for one believe there is a lot of symbolisim in the bibile, esp. the old testiment. I believe that the people that wrote it described events in ways that THEY understood them with the little knowledge they had about science and the workd KWIM? So why can't evolution be the method that God used to creat humans?

PrairieMom replied:
are you talking about ME?!?!

TheOaf66 replied:
yeah, just joshin yah

PrairieMom replied:

redchief replied: I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and I teach CCD. Here is the question I return to my class when they ask the very question being debated here:

Can the idea of creation exist alongside the theory of the Big Bang?
Why or why not?



--> I've been staying out of this debate on purpose this time, for now.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Has anyone ever considered that maybe creation and the big bang theory can go hand in hand? We don't know "HOW" God created the Earth or the universe, therefore it is possible God made the "big bang".

On a side note, I do not like to debate about things like this. People who usually do not go for any religious aspect are too ignorant to open their hearts. Not saying this is the case here, or pointing any fingers, this has just been my past experiences with touchy subjects on other boards. This board has always been more civil than others I visit. As a Christian, I believe what I believe with my heart, I do not need hard cold evidence to believe that we have a creator, which is what faith comes from. Faith doesn't come from seeing with our eyes, it comes from believing in our hearts. Usually when people are looking for cold hard evidence, they are too blinded to see the simple evidence in front of them. Miracles, answered prayers, etc. People are too busy looking for a perfect life, and when things go wrong they are too quick to blame the great I AM, rather than owning up to their own mistakes and consequences. God isn't going to save you from a miserable existence if you are not going to rely on him.

I don't want to get on my soapbox (may already have though), however, I will say that I wholeheartedly believe in creation, God, and that Jesus Christ died for our sins. If you need cold hard evidence...you wont find it unless you look in your heart and pray. If God wanted you to rely on evidence, don't you think he would do something more drastic and personable to each person who doesn't believe, like come to you in the form of a person? His most faithful believers do not need that evidence, because he wants people to trust in him without it. He wants us to believe in our hearts, not our minds.

I'm done...sorry, I am extremely passionate about subjects like this. I wont judge others who believe otherwise, it is not MY place to do that. However, if you look at all of the evolution "evidence", you will find none. That is why evolution is still called a "theory". There is however, evidence that supports creation.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Ed, you totally beat me to it!!! Drats! I am thinking along the same line as you though.

ZandersMama replied:
Very well put

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I liked that response! Simple and to the point!

I guess the only other thing I'd like to add is that I don't feel we need all the answers. If God wanted us to have all the answers so easlily then don't you think that we would be a much better world? I feel comfortable not knowing all the details of our universe. All I know is that I will be joining God and Jesus in heaven when I die, and that is all I need to be sure of, nothing more.

redchief replied:
Jeannie, the only area I disagree with you on is in that this is not a healthy topic for debate. On the contrary, I think debates such as these help us to understand each other and where we come from on a spiritual level. Since much of that which makes up "us" comes from our spiritual being, that understanding is important. What I do believe is that we should respect the beliefs of others, whether we agree or not. Agreement isn't necessary, but tolerance and respect for what makes us individuals is.

coasterqueen replied: Not blinded at all - I see miracles, answered 'prayers' etc, but do you ever think it could be just coincidence too. I'm NOT saying that is the case, but there are some who might think that way. I can see ALL these things and not have COMPLETE faith in creationism . Also tell your last sentence to anyone who IS living a miserable existance that also believes in God. They may ask why they believe in God but are STILL living in such awful surroundings, etc. Owning up to mistakes and consequences and looking for the perfect life....wow you are really harsh


Also, I'm the type of person to look at all sides and have had these discussions w/my pastor so they don't make me feel uncomfortable. Why is it God doesn't want to show himself and wants us to believe in him w/out seeing his existance? If he loves us all and wants more to follow him why not show himself? There are so many people out there that say "show me him and I'll believe him" - he could save a lot of those people don't you think? Never mind, don't answer that because I've gotten the answer many times. Still makes me wonder


IF creationism IS it and we are supposed to take that leap of faith (I believe I try, but still have some questions) WHY on earth are there SO many religions? I mean seriously, if we are supposed to believe in the bible, and God and everything of that nature, why isn't there just ONE religion? As my husband says "tell me why and maybe you can conform me". He makes a good point. Why is there so many versions?

I don't know, maybe I am just ignorant.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I think perhaps I was thinking that way because all the other boards I have been on, have not been quite this civil when something like this comes up. It may also be because there are many "believers" on this board, or maybe you all are more mature. Other boards I go to are also geared towards teachers, and we teachers are an argumentative bunch . Thank you all for being civil, because this subject is very close to my heart. I think tolerence is one of the best things we can teach our children too, alongside manners and ethics.

coasterqueen replied: BTW, I'm probably not making any sense because this is one topic I have a hard time explaining myself on.

redchief replied:
Galileo once said, "I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Ignorant people do not seek knowledge, instead allowing life to pass without question. You are not ignorant at all... I find you to be a seeking, intelligent lady.

redchief replied:
Well said!!!!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I respect yours, and everyone's opinions, and I know when it comes to topics like this we can sometimes be taken the wrong way, or not make any sense. I tend to babble, if you haven't noticed.

I wish I had time to comment on your comments, but I don't. However, I can clearly see your points, and I don't nec. disagree with you one bit. I only wish that others could be comfortable with not having to have all the answers. I don't think God wants us to have all the answers. Why not? It's just not our place to. God knows what is best for us, and if not knowing all the answers is what is best, then so be it.

coasterqueen replied:
You are so sweet Ed. No wonder Lisa married you .

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Just want to add this: I never said that anyone here was ignorant, only from my past experiences have I had to deal with the ignorance of others who did not want to listen to other opinions. Please do not read into anything more than what was said, as I was only speaking from past experiences, not this particular one.

redchief replied:
She married me for my money.

I got the last laugh on that one.

coasterqueen replied:

C&K*s Mommie replied: I meant discussion, not debate But everyone is discussing this topic in a respectful way. I am grateful that no one is pushing another to lean to the opposing side(s). Now off to read the rest of the responses....

My2Beauties replied:
You put it exactly as I would put it. I believe to an extent that God created the heavens and the earth, but to what extent did he create "us", I believe we evolved from something. The bible was always "iffy" to me as well, it was wrote by a man and his interpretation of God's word, so his interpretation could be different from that of another man that may have wrote it. I've been on the fence with this for years! I believe in a higher being, but to what extent I don't know.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I do just want to clarify this, then hopefully, I'm done;). When I said this, it was because I have met countless people, my cousin right now being one, who believe that they should be able to sin sin sin, and that God should just reach down to them and pull them out of all the agony that they caused themselves. I'll give you an example: my cousin is going through a rough time in her life. There has been times where she has had to move back in with her mom and dad. Instead of looking at her life and realizing that God is taking care of her, she thinks because she doesn't have her own roof over her head, God isn't taking care of her. Instead of looking at all the foolish spending she does and realizing she needs another job to feed herself and her child, she thinks if she just believes that God will miracuously just let her live her life how she wants. Sometimes people want to think that God will rescue them out of every sin they make. It is impossible to not sin, but people often think because they are a believer that God will somehow not make them live with their own consequences and God will give them, what they think, is a perfect life. It is my belief, one can agree or not, that God practices tough love just like any parent. You make mistakes, you deal with what comes. God lets bad things happen, to grab our attention and open our eyes, to make something good come out of it. Some people don't get that, which causes some to turn away and blame God instead of blaming themselves. I am not saying anyone here is one of them, just saying people like that exist.

C&K*s Mommie replied: It beats me, too Karen. I am lost on that and wonder the same thing all the time.

C&K*s Mommie replied:

coasterqueen replied:
I see what you are saying. I know a few of those people too

My3LilMonkeys replied:
Karen, ITA with you here. To me you are making perfect sense - it's a difficult decision with lots of issues to be weighed on both sides. I am not a religious person by nature so I tend to lean more towards the evolution side of things, but my mind is not made up one way or the other.

MissyKay2005 replied: Evalution is a theory, they can not prove it. A lot of stuff was made up too. But alot of people would say the Bible is theory as well. The Bible has over 300 prophociies that came true and more that claims to come. It has a history of being right. . No one really knows so it is up to everyone to decide for them seleves. I personly believe in God. I don't want to always do what he wants but if I do it always ends up being best in my life. Everyone has there own and will chose there own beliefs and I don't think there is anything wrong with that ether.

redchief replied:
You can take that question one step further and ask why we are all so different. Why don't we all look the same?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
People have to remember that God isn't the only one that exists, the devil does too. It says right in the Bible about false prophets and others that will try to be like him. Hence, other religions. It's our job to read and educate ourselves about it so we are prepared to defend our faith and be strong in our faith. Not that I'm great at that, I am not the greatest example of reading or studying my Bible . I think if people took some philosophy classes and studied (not read, but studied) the Bible, this question would be answered more clearly.

It also has to do with your personal relationship with God/Christ. Anyone can say they believe in God, but what about that personal relationship? That is really where a strong faith comes in.

I'm really starting to get more off topic, rather than staying on the whole creation vs. evolution thing. I apologize...I'm just passionate about my faith.

DansMom replied:
I did read Genesis and the next four books of the OT. There were three versions of the Adam and Eve story told in the OT, all of them different. The details of all the stories through those first five books seemed very regional and steeped in old superstitions of that community and that time. I read the commandments and was surprised to discover there were more than ten! The many commandments after the first ten include things like "don't push your neighbor's goat into a pit", "don't mix this fabric with that fabric" and "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (although, I believe Jesus would let her live, because charity and forgiveness is what sets the NT apart from the OT in a lot of ways). The bible is good to read with a lot of emotional and spiritual truth to be found therein, but I didn't come out of reading it feeling like it was the only way to reach the truth. Buddhism contains a lot of teaching about compassion and forgiveness and charity as well.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I wish I knew the answer to that, too. I have never really questioned that; Now I will have to look further into it. The only thing that comes to mind is the Tower of Babel (sp) and the subsequent migration to different lands due to the language barriers, but that would not explain much still.

coasterqueen replied:
Good point.

Can take it a step further and say why don't we all think the same, act the same, etc.

It's circular, I tell you. It can drive a person mad.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
This is why the whole Bible is just as important as the first few books. I would suggest using a study Bible and study the scripture, hopefully that will help a little more than just reading it.

Kaitlin'smom replied:
hummm a bit harsh I say.

PrairieMom replied: I just gotta say, at this very moment there are 9 people reading this post! I have never seen so many people in a post at the same time!

5littleladies replied:
Karen, I'm not going to quote your post because it's really long! No one is ignorant who is searching. I think ignorance is believing that you have all the answers. I don't have the answers to all of your questions. I don't think anyone can fully explain the intentions of God (wouldn't that be a scary thing to do!). But I can tell you I look out my window every day at God's beautiful creation and I know that he is there. I look at my children's faces-Every dimple, every freckle, the color of their eyes, the shade of their skin-all of it speaks to me of our creator. How could it happen by chance? It couldn't! It just couldn't!

I read an article recently on msnbc, about Antony Flew, one of the world's leading atheists, who recently changed his tune and has concluded that based on scientific evidence there must be a creator. Here is the link- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6688917/ . I don't agree with much of what he thinks-I believe that God is very much a personal God, but I was shocked that such a person would agree with the idea of intelligent design and based on science! I'm not a science girl so I can't back up my beliefs most of the time with evidence, but I'm glad that the evidence does exist. I just need to be able to point the way to others.

Finally, to answer your question as to why God doesn't just show himself. He did. He sent his son Jesus Christ to this world. Jesus walked on this earth. He proved himself to be God in everything he did. He showed himself to the world and the world denied him. Jesus came to earth, He revealed himself to man, and he lived the life of a man, because he loves us. I don't know about you, but I couldn't relate to a God who doesn't understand what I go through, a God who hasn't felt what I feel. Jesus did that. He did it for me, and he did it for you. I know it takes faith in the Bible to believe this, but there is evidence to support the Bible too. Here is another article I came upon. http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evidence.html It's not mind-blowing, but it does have some interesting points.

I hope this post isn't too rambling. I'm no great scholar, but I have a God who has all the answers. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Again, I explained that further if you would read my later post. But if you think about it...do we really think God is going to reach down and give us what we want when we blast his name and deny him? I don't think so. Would you give into your children if all they did is say they hate you and treat you like crap? No.

luvmykids replied:
I'll try to touch on this, it's hard for me to be concise because for me it's one of those things I just know, I don't know why I know, kwim? Which I guess is the root of it for people who are seeking or questioning, they want that part of it but like I said before, that is really what faith is, just knowing and accepting without having to have it in black and white.

There are many religions but in my personal belief, God/the Bible etc are kind of the "original" and other religions kind of stem from that, does that make sense? All other religions are man created in a sense, they glorify a person/god/idol chosen by man rather than the other way around where it started with God first, I guess what I'm trying to say is most other religions started with a man first who then created his god/idol/etc. I'm probably not making any sense but I guess what I'm trying to say is no other religion goes back as far as "Christianity" and is divinely inspired. I also believe some religions are created out of convenience for lack of better word, someone didn't like some aspect so they tweaked it to allow for or fit what they wanted or needed from their religion.

And I have to address the question that sometimes can't miracles or answered prayers be coincidence, I guess I would say that, but I still trace it back to God lining everything up in order for the "coincidence" to occur. And I've had too many miracles and answered prayers in my personal life to call it that, there are too many to list that would never have taken place/happened/changed/etc without God having a role in it.

Just another 2 cents from me.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied:

Aaron asked me this same question several years ago.

I look at the world and all it's religions this way. Imagine we are all climbing a mountain, with the peak representing God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Buddha, Mohammed, enlightenment (the divine being or destination of your chosen religion). There may be numerous paths up the mountain. But who is to say which is the only way. I refuse to condemn other people/religions for believing differently than I do. If you look at it, each religion of the world claims to be the true one. If that is the case, then won't we all be going to H-E-double hockey sticks?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
WOW...I wish I would have thought of those words!!! Beautiful and so true!

C&K*s Mommie replied: Taking that from a personal POV, I do not think the same nor act the same as my peers, because of the different environment I was raised in. I do not even talk the same. Not that I am any more proper than the next, for me it was the area that I was raised in. It is not commonplace, and I tend to stick out more.

Looking from a spiritual POV, we are all our own person. Designed to think, and feel and make decisions on our own without internal/external pressure to follow a certain path. That is the beauty in this world. We can think freely.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I was thinking the same thing!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
No, because the Christian Bible is the only one that talks about false prophets and others pretending to be like God, IMHO.

redchief replied:
We call those the "Laws of the Old Testament." They are considered exemplary guidance on the Ten Commandments as they applied to the people of the time.

coasterqueen replied: Jennifer,

You wrote a very eloquent post and I will definitely read the links you provided. One thing that struck me is mentioning about your children and each little thing about them and how they couldn't be chance. I agree to this to a certain extent. Yes, I believe that babies are miracles from above, but science does play a part in that. Maybe it was a higher being that decided that it was time for someone to have a child and the egg and sperm met, but science kinda took over from there, or at least played a big roll in the whole thing. KWIM.

I guess that's why for me, I can't believe one way over another. I will never say evolution IS the only way or creationism is. I think they can 'co-exist' somehow together, like Kelly had said before so gracefully.

I just have a hard time understanding how many (maybe not you or anyone here, but people I've met at church and around) think that it can only be creationism and that science has no part in life whatsoever. It's hard for me to believe and understand that thinking. I think you can have faith in God and still believe that science had/has a role.

Again, thank you for your post.

redchief replied:
The story of the Tower of Babel doesn't explain why there are races of human beings. Taken literally, wouldn't the decendants of those people look similarly?

coasterqueen replied:
Oh I completely agree. I think that's why many, like myself, who may have not grown up with religion are a bit confused and try to see all sides of this. Why would people make up a religion for convenience if there is only one 'word'? Which 'religion' am I supposed to believe? How did you pick yours and the church you belong to and how do you know it's exactly what God wanted you to believe?

I come from a catholic and baptist family (yeah we are diverse ). I also have many relatives who are Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, Atheists, you name it we've got them in our family. They ALL will tell you their religion is the right one and blah blah is why. So seriously, how can one decide? Where is the evidence that this one is the right one versus the other? IF it's supposed to be 'faith-based' (religion that is) then why are so many religions (people from them) trying to 'show' me that their religion is the right one?

I think that's why some go straight to evolutionism. It's fact based, and there aren't a million versions of it.

coasterqueen replied:
ANd just like with any other 'debate' I'm the only one posting so much. I should have become a lawyer.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied: 10 of us now. And Karen, I love your posts. They open up other lines of thought.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I just want to reinterate that evolution is not fact, it is theory. But I know what you mean.

My2Beauties replied:

Doesn't Judaism go back further than Christianity, after all Jesus was Jewish right? Also Mohammad (sp?) heard revelations from God just as those prophets who interpreted and wrote the bible, how can we discount his revelations? I mean these are the questions I had. I took a very in-depth course on World Religions and how they came about, it just opened up a ton of questions in my mind!

5littleladies replied:
Karen I agree with you 100%. I just think God is the author of the science manual if you know what I mean.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Dear hubby, why are you so quiet, yet lurking around on the thread? Letting me ride the waves alone huh?!?!

TheOaf66 replied: from what I understand, the reason there are so many different religions is that there are different theological interpretations of things in the scriptures. The central idea is the same just different people interpret different ways which is all find and good. As long as the central idea is there variations in thinking is what makes us human but the central idea is that you believe in God so in a sense the end justifes the means of how you get there.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Because the devil likes to whisper in people's ears...

redchief replied: Judeaism is older than Christianity. Mohammed does not call himself God, but a prophet.

TheOaf66 replied:
that is how the devil recruits, by casting doubt in your mind

coasterqueen replied:
Thanks.

You may wonder why I have every question in the book and why I try to figure this all out....because of my children. They ask me why the sky is blue I have to be able to tell them why. I seriously can't tell my children "just because" (well ykwim) because then when they get in school their teachers are going to give them the scientific reason why and what will I look like to them then?

Kids are FULL of questions and NEED answers. I just don't see my 3.5 year old being able to take the 'faith' route at this point.

What happens when your child asks you why the grass is green and you say because...they say why and you answer them again with a simpler answer and then they say why again. It just keeps going.

When Kylie asks her Sunday school teacher questions about God and religion and the teacher tries to explain she can't understand faith, she won't accept it as an answer.

I don't know, I'm just babbling.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I believe it does play a significant role in our lives.... to an extent.

I agree with Monica on the religions point, and well... also with Kelly too. But religion, IMO, will not place you into heaven. Nor will being a devout pew sitter every Sunday morning and night, either.

I will refrain from getting off topic too much, though.

My2Beauties replied:

Christians do this every day honey! My freshman year of college I lived with 2 of my girlfriends, one of them had their boyfriend living there with us who happened to be in the seminary at the time (yeah he lived in sin but attended the seminary) anyways, he was white, his girlfriend was black. A really good friend of ours came over one night and was having a discussion about a passage in the bible that forbid a group of people from having relations with darker people, I honestly cannot remember what it said as I haven't read any parts of the bible in years but in a nutshell this is what it said, this person's pastor said it was forbidding the people of dating outside of their race/heritage. So he posed the question to him and said what is your interpretation of this, and he said in the seminary they told us it's forbidding you to date others outside of your religion, as his girlfriend was a Christian just like him. We argued with him that it said specifically "darker people or colored people or something of that nature" and he argued back no it means of a different religion because the religion thing git into his personal lifestyle at the time. I have no qualms with dating out side the race, I've dated plenty of guys outside my race (so please no one take this the wrong way) I was just stating how he changed his interpretation so he wouldn't seem like he was disobeying the word (but yet he lived with us and slept in the same bed as his girlfriend every night, different story, won't go there )

I attended a church when I was 19 and the pastor let his wife speak in church, she was a pastor as well but doesn't the bible say that the women shall shadow behind their husband so to speak, the man is "the man" and women shall not speak in church - our pastor said his interpretation of this was totally different and he saw nothing wrong with women speaking in church but yet he spoke harshly against gays - what's the difference, both were wrong in the words of the Bible - am I right??? So don't say that other religions tweak things because, my dear, Christians do it too.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
The answer is "because that is how God made it". This is why children are not damned to hell, because they can not comprehend the volume of faith. But it is our job as adults to raise them in God's hands so when they do become of age they will have a strong faith. A child will have a hard time trusting and growing in God if they see that their parents do not have that strong faith.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Leann, you are right, the Bible has been tweeked many times. People interpret everything in a different way, it's human. Unfortunately, it's the people who take things so literally and blow it out of proportion that make Christians look insane. The central belief is still the same in all denominations though, which is Christ, which is the most important thing to remember.

redchief replied:
I think one of Karen's problems might be that when her children find out there IS a reason the sky is blue (refraction of light through the atmosphere and water vapor) and there IS a reason grass is green (chlorophyl), they will feel betrayed... Which brings us back to the initial question I asked. Can the Big Bang Theory and Creation co-exist?

coasterqueen replied:
See this is where I could totally go into the whole Jehovah Witness religion...but I shouldn't. I will say this...

I can see how a religious person would tell their kids that this is how God wants it to be etc, and ask that their kids believe in God without seeing him or having evidence of sorts but then why would that same person ask their child to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny? We would be asking them to believe in both, but later they learned that God is still something we should have faith in, but oh btw, Santa isn't really real, just disregard that. I would think my child would then wonder "well why would they have me believe in Santa when it's not true, but believe in God...is he real, is he true?"

Am I making any sense? Probably not. Just disregard. This is a GREAT discussion I have w/my MIL (she's a JW) and honestly they make a lot more sense when it comes to believing in things like that than Christians do.

coasterqueen replied:
Yes, you've got me. I'll have to think more about your question before I post.

My2Beauties replied: My 10 year old stepdaughter just wouldn't accept that answer, they need more than that IMHO!

Boo&BugsMom replied: Leann, that is where a strong faith and prayer come in. Prayer is powerful. We are exposed to non-believers all the time, and it's our job to pray for them.

redchief replied:
I don't blame her one bit!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
This is why there are many people who do not celebrate those pagan holidays. Well, the pagan figures at least. I have struggled with that myself, whether to use the Easter bunny, Santa, etc. with our son, to be honest.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I think that if we didn't question certain things, then our faith would not grow, to be honest.

redchief replied:
Neither would our knowledge. Neither would the food on our plates. Neither would we. But who determines when we stop asking?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
It's not a who, but a what...our faith.

My2Beauties replied:
Tell that to the mother who prayed and prayed for her dying son/daughter with terminal cancer to live but they still died! See why would God let stuff like that happen to children?? I mean, these are questions that kids my stepdaughter's age asks???? I'm not being a smart-alec, but if my child died or my husband died or something horrific happened in my life like that, you couldn't justify to me God planned it that way - well I'm sorry that just wouldn't work for me! I'm not trying to be rude and I'm not trying to say that God doesn't want it to be that way, I just wonder if people put too much on God, I mean our fate shouldn't really lie with God, I think ultimately God knows your demeanor and whether you're a good person right. So because I had a child out of wedlock and I've never been "born again" after I sinned do I go to he!!?? I mean I'm a good person, I'd give you the shirt off my back, I've never hurt anyone, I've never killed anyone, never robbed anyone, I gave birth to a child out of wedlock - am I damned to he!! for that when a murdered that sits in prison gets saved and he goes to heaven because he got "saved!" See stuff like this bothers me. Why can't a person have a relationship with God and not go to church, they can pray, read the word, live the word, talk about God, have a relationship with him, but by golly if he doesn't go to church and tithe he's not a true Christian (I cannot tell you how manu churches I've been to where the entire sermon talked about tithing and how important it is in your walk with God) - I have a hard time thinking that isn't bologna!! When I was 19 going to church every Sunday I had at least 4-5 sermons on tithing in a 6 month period - um and how many times could our pastor pray for $5mil for a new church before I got so sick of it, I mean these are questions - legitimate questions, people have a problem with. When I made $600 and $440 of that goes to rent and $120 goes to a car payment and I have $40 bucks to live on for 2 weeks and I'm 19 years old out on my own, how can I justify giving up 10% of my gross which was probably 800-900 dollars and be late on a bill! Oh you reap what you sow - I did it several times (tithing) and it got me in a world of debt!!

I'm sorry I've totally started ranting and raving but you just have to understand where I'm coming from. Maybe I've went to the wrong churches. But I've been to several and I've seen it all, heard different interpretations of just about every passage.

5littleladies replied:
Ok I'm not quite sure of all the details of the Big Bang theory, but if what I know is correct, then I believe that the Big Bang and Creationism can co-exist. The Big Bang theory simply put, says that everything in the universe originated from one point, in a so-called "big bang", correct? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Why can this not harmonize with a Creator? Could God not have caused the big bang? Why does it have to be so complicated?

My hubby summed up what we believe in a nutshell concerning evolution. Man can "evolve" to fit his surroundings-He can become a better man. A dog can "evolve" to fit his surroundings as well-he can become a better dog. However, a dog cannot evolve to become a man. And God is the one who set the whole deal in motion.

coasterqueen replied: LeaAnn,

I often wonder the same things. BTW, our church expects 20% of your annual salary! This is one of the things I have a hang up on because I haven't gone to church now for 2 months because Dh told me I shouldn't go if I can't give them 20%. If we gave them 20% then I'd have to give up a lot, granted and I would, but I'm not giving up funding my children's education funds. I'm sorry but that's not going to happen.

Like my DH says, why can't we just go have church in a corn field somewhere and talk about God and the bible and such. Why do we have to have these MASSIVE churches and pastors, etc getting salaries? Jehovah Witnesses will answer that quesiton for you telling you their pastors (or whatever they call them) don't get anything. They vow to a life of poverty and vow a life to the faith of Jehovah and their followers. That at least makes more sense to me

Jackie012007 replied: first of all, WOW I AM SO PROUD OF EVERYONE... you guys are sooo diplomatic and polite and sensitive to other's beliefs and feelings... I have been on other boards where this would have been blood and guts "debate". that's why I love this board!

You guys made me dig out my world religions and ancient texts notes... according to recent scholarly texts, there is a debate about the oldest religion : some say Zaroastrianism is the oldest religion still practiced today (around 1000 BCE)... it is a monotheistic religion. But there are also arguments that Hinduism is considered the world's oldest religion, as it is believed to be founded around 1500 BCE. Then comes Judaism, around 1800 BCE... Christianity and Islam, which are two of the world's most practiced religions, are actually relatively new, starting in 30 CE (teachings of Jesus) and 610 CE (muhammad's revelation).

But yeah, when you look at alot of religions, they have the same basis. The Greek and Roman creation stories are a lot the christian creation story, but instead of one god, they believed in many gods. Same with American Indian creation story. Religions and their ancient texts is a great subject to take a class on... challenging but so interesting!

coasterqueen replied:
Hmm, good points your DH makes.

Now isn't the Big Bang theory state that the earth was formed over a billion years or something like that and creationism states that the earth was formed in 7 days (and so on)? If that's so how can they co-exist? I'd like to think they can by your definition, but when it comes to how things were formed how can it?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You can dear!

I will repeat...it has to do with your personal relationship!!! It's not about going to church, and any church that expects you to give, I would not be setting foot in. Just because it's a church of God, doesn't make the church "right". The devil is cleaver.

My2Beauties replied:
WOW 20% - now the bible clearly states 10% Karen - again interpretation Sorry I'm being a smart-alec now! I'm done

I'm all for church in a corn field or in my case (in the city) a vacant parking lot!!! Makes more sense to me! We have a church here that has over 30,000 members, it looks like the freaking fairgrounds it's so huge, their pastor just retired actually. He's a multi-millionaire!!! The elitest of the elite in our city attend this church and let me tell you, if they tithe, we're talking $$$ cha-ching. It's just
"odd" to me!

gr33n3y3z replied: I can see both sides of this but if you choose one or the other then one is not the truth
Its all confusing to me any way so I will leave it at that lol

5littleladies replied:
Oh my goodness Karen, you just opened up the floodgates of my heart! You DON'T have to go to a church. Go ahead, worship in a cornfield. Sometimes I think about doing that! I know of a group of people who go windsurfing on Sunday mornings and call it church. They pray and then go hit the waves. Yay for them! Being a christian isn't about going to a church, and church isn't about going to a building once a week, giving 10% (which I don't believe is required btw), singing a few songs, listening to one person speak, and then going home. Church is the body of Christ. If I have a group of friends over and we have a bible study and pray, well that's church. I could go on and on with this off-topic but tell your hubby if he wants to go to church in a cornfield-Go for it!

DansMom replied:
Thanks, but I think God is busy helping sports celebrities win important games right now...

JK---I appreciate when people pray for me.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Leann, those are the ones that make people question. We use to go to a church like that. They are a good church, but people sometimes don't grow in their faith in a place like that. That was our issue. Just because a church says it's a church of God, doesn't make it legit.

ashtonsmama replied: OK--I could go on and on and explain myself and my beliefs, but I think for now I'll just state them (and also wanted to say kudos to all of you who are debating the issue, you're all being very respectful and it's always nice to see that between people who believe differently)...but IMO:

-God is the maker and creator of all things, and so I believe 100% in Creation.
-I do not believe in "Evolutionism" per say, BUT--and this is kind of confusing--but I DO believe that God created some processes (such as the cycles of life, some evolutionary things that are more gradual and make more sense, etc.) that naturally occur, so that is how I reconcile my beliefs of Evolutionism vs. Creationism.

JMHO.

And just a side note: we went to a Calvary Chapel church down here for a few years, and frankly couldn't handle it after awhile, they were just so rigid and so hypocritical (i.e. the pastor's wife had an affair, there was alot of shunning of her and of many other people with drug use problems, etc.) that it eventually got to us and we felt forced to leave...ANYWAYS, that's another story, but we now go to the Presbyterian church here and feel much more supported in our faith and feel like their style of worship, etc. matches our beliefs better.



Sorry.

I'm done.

lisar replied:
Allright I have to get back into this mainly because of this response.

Usually when people are looking for cold hard evidence, they are too blinded to see the simple evidence in front of them. Miracles, answered prayers, etc.
I dont agree on this mainly because I have never see one.................


My belifes are the way they are mainly because when my 12 year old cousin was laying in her bed dying of brain cancer (on her 3rd tumor) laying there in pain screaming. why would god put a 12 year old thru that. WHY.... With any kid for that matter. I can understand the normals bumps and bruises that kids do or something that you brought upon yourself. But not something that you didnt cause. I remember seeing her in pain when I was a child. And all the preachers and everyone around her praying for her. That did absolutly no good at all. Why did God take my Mother away from me when I was at such a young age that I needed her the most. WHY.... My Mom believed in god and prayed so why wouldnt he take someone who doesnt believe first? My thing is I can understand adults in pain and emotional pain... But not the kids. Okay... I cant see that. I am an adult and I am strong enough emotianally to handle things like that but when you are a child and your in pain like cancer (something that you didnt cause) how can a child deal with that. I am talking about a 12 year old girl who was asking her Mother to kill her so that she would stop the pain. I just dont see a man of his power to put a child thru any pain at all like that. That is why I believe what I believe. I am not trying to change anyones mind about it. I never have and never will. Now that I am all upset after typing all of this. I am done with this specific topic. I wont open it again.

Please dont take this wrong tannerbugs mom.... I dont take an opionion on someone because of thier beliefs at all.

coasterqueen replied:
You about make me cry saying that because I wish there were more of you around ME. Everywhere I go, everyone I meet it's like if you don't go to church you can't believe. This town is seriously Catholic and being a political town well, the politcal, catholic ones stick together. If you aren't Catholic and you didn't go to the biggest catholic school in town (which is MASSIVE)....forget about getting any favors, hands up, help with a job, etc. My husband and I both have learned you don't let on to others that you aren't Catholic and well, unfortunately where you go to school comes up often and well that's a strike on your record so-to-speak. It just must be where I live. It stinks!

ETA that I have nothing against Catholics by my above post. So please don't take it the wrong way.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
No offense at all, don't worry. However, this is the typical response (the "why" are these things happening, or why does God let them happen) when people are seeking answers. The only thing I can say is that everything happens for a reason, even though we may not understand those reasons, it is not our place to understand them. If you rely on God, you will be blessed with healing. You are not alone, I guarantee you that every person here has been through things that you have just stated. We are punished by death because sin was brought into this world. It's not something I choose to try to understand, but something I choose to except. After you except that life is the way God wants it, it's a lot easier to live. I'm not saying hurt, pain, etc. wont exist, but it's a lot easier to cope when you have God to confide in.

coasterqueen replied:
OR you can choose not to accept it and join the fight against diseases and finding cures. If one just accepted it, we'd never have cures for anything. THat would be terrible IMO.

redchief replied: I have to go to work, so I will leave you ladies (and man) with a question. I asked who determines when we stop asking questions about our universe and the answer given was, "Not who, but what... faith."

Who's faith or what faith forbids me from seeking the answers to the universe? I've never read that in any scripture, mine or otherwise, so how do we determine when we're stepping over the line where science and faith meet?

Catch you all later, hopefully I'll get some time at work.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
You can still except it and fight against those cures. Who says that you can't do both!? This is NOT my point. I mean excepting it mentally! I believe God blessed us with doctors and researchers for a reason. Cancer doesn't come from God, it comes from the devil. Satan only does as much as God will allow him to do. Why does allow it? We aren't suppose to know, we are suppose to trust in him.

coasterqueen replied:

So God allows Satan to 'cast' cancer upon us?


BTW Ed, I'm not sure. Those who believe solely in creation would tell you there is no line of "meeting" They can't meet. There's only one way.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, as someone who doesn't know her right from her left when it comes to this subject I don't think anyone can tell YOU or me where the line should be drawn and where.

Bee_Kay replied: I'm gonna jump in here about the "attending church" thing.

This is just my opinion and I am not targeting anyone else's belief.

I believe that "church" is not the building you pray in with a group of other people (the traditional meaning of it).
My DH and I believe that "church" is wherever you are. I believe that church can be any moment of any given day.

When I was pregnant with Tyler, I was given an U/S because they said that there may be a problem with his kidney. So, a week after he was born I was to bring him in for his own U/S. I was so scared. I prayed right then and there that my baby be alright. That was church to me.

When Tyler was hit by a car and I didn't know if my baby would live or die. I prayed harder and with more emotion than I ever had in my life. That was church to me.

I fully admit that I was brought up Catholic. I was baptized and recieved communion and also attended Confirmation.... attended Sunday Mass and Wednesday evening youth group. But, as I got older I saw hypocrisy all around me by those who claimed to be devout followers... and I hated it.

So, I worship God at home, while driving, before I sleep, while I am cleaning the house. I worship when I tuck my children in at night, or when I see their sparkly smiles.... I worship whenever I need/want to.... and I do it wherever I am at.

So, to DH and I... that is what "church" is to us

coasterqueen replied: Ok, darn! I have 5 minutes before I have to leave work so I won't be able to YAP anymore til later tonight. You all will have to go on without me.

.....and you all are thinking YAY! She's finally going to shut up! Geesh, that crazy woman!

BTW, Where is Jeanine (jcc64) at? She's ALWAYS on debates. Oh Jeanine..I'm missing you.

mammag replied: I wasn't sure whether to get in on this discussion as I'm confused about it all myself. I am one who believes the bible was inspired by God. However, there are many times when I find myself saying........yeah but.....

I just wanted to state my opinion on diseases though....well, it's not a firm opinion as I've just felt distant from God lately...not sure why.....whole 'nother topic....

ANYWAY..........

I don't necessarily think diseases are from God or satan. I don't find myself accepting that God is in control over each moment of our lives. I still pray to him all the time and believe he hears (and pray he lets me feel close again) but I think that when they ate from the the tree we were distanced from Him and now suffer mortal conditions. When you think of the fact that scientists have found that certain things cause cancer....how can you then blame God for giving your child a disease or satan for that matter. I do believe that he can do miracles but am clueless as to how he chooses when and whom to gift these miracles to. Is it just that certain people have that true and unwavering faith and that is why they recieve miracles??? I just don't know.

Well, I guess I should probably really seek within myself and figure out my beliefs on topics like this........

5littleladies replied:
I do have an explanation for this one! The Bible says in Genesis 1:1,2 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters". This is where I think the big bang theory would apply. The earth itself existed before life on earth existed. I don't think what we think of as the 7 days of creation starts until verse 3 with the creating of light. Who knows how much time passed between verses 2 and 3. It could have been ages. I hope this makes sense.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Like I said, everything happens for a reason, and it's your own personal choice to except it or not.

Bee_Kay replied:

Exactly! It makes perfect sense. I believe those 7 days all depends on whose perspective.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I like how you stated that! I can't say for certain that diseases come from satan, it's only my own theory, but I do know that everything happens for a reason, something good always comes out of something bad (it's someone's choice to see that good or not), and that the trials we go through only make us stronger.

mammag replied:
I can't believe I never looked closely enough to see that! Thank you Jennifer that is extremely helpful!!!!!

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Me too.

Boo&BugsMom replied: I have enjoyed chatting about this with you all. Unfortunately, my kids are demanding and I need to go. I hope I instilled some hope in some of you who have many questions. It's interesting this thread turned into something more than what was meant...it was probably my fault. "Hi, my name is Jennie, and I'm a thread highjacker". Just so you know, you are all in my prayers!

Bee_Kay replied:
this thread is incredible.... kudos to nicole for starting it (i would have been too nervous to start it )... and everyone here deserves a pat on the back.
It is rare that a debate, that could easily turn vicious, has been handled with tact and maturity.

also, I love how this thread has spawned off in different directions, bringing in different beliefs, people asking questions and giving opinions!

Jackie012007 replied: good debate all... I missed most of it because we just had a hum-dinger of a thunder/lightening storm complete with hail, power outtage and now more flooding... sounds like round two is approaching... I hate living in NY
ciao all gotta wait this out then go pump out my basement

ashtonsmama replied:
I love seeing it too! Good job you guys!

luvmykids replied:
I call that hypocrisy in any "religion" or even in day to day life. I'm in no way saying "Christians" are better than others, the most religious person in the world is not perfect but that does not make them less of a Christian which is totally off topic.

My post, dear, was in response to why there are so many different religions and going back to the foundations of some, they are a version of Christianity with additions and exceptions to allow for a person to inject their own interpretations and allow for their own shortcomings as acceptable.

It was my opinion that I posted, honey, and it was not meant to come across the way it was taken. It was not at all directed at who lives their life this way or that way or even in the context of modern religions, it's part of my opinion on how/why other religions were formed waaaaaaay back in the day.

luvmykids replied:
I take that to mean when an individual is satisfied that he or she has asked enough questions to be able to have faith in what they believe.

Just because Joe has had his questions answered to his satisfaction doesn't mean you do, but if he does he isn't wrong for being satisfied and flying on faith the rest of the way.

luvmykids replied:
I have to address this as the daughter of a pastor at a mid-size church. Firstly I'll say that I think it is wrong for any church to expect money from it's members. Secondly I'll say, at my dads church, they talk about tithing because it's part of something God asks of them but not to "further" the church for selfish reasons but in order to further the church as an outreach. It's a good sized church, the staff is all on salary, and they are even on TV on a local channel GASP. But they support several missions groups, monthly deliver food, clothing, haircuts, and medical care to a different area of the city each month, have prison ministries, the list goes on.

I'm sure there are folks who will say the church does these things to look good but I can speak from my heart when I say it is because the staff and most of the members truly have a heart for doing what they can for others.

My dad's salary is enough and thats about it. They can afford to eat out once in a while, live in an average house, buy Christmas and bday gifts, nothing extravagant, pretty much like every other family on their block.

What I want to know, from those who think pastoral staff should be dirt poor, is where in the Bible does it say that just because someone is called to the ministry means they must be poor? Doesn't the Bible talk about God's prosperity, blessings, and provision? And who wants to tell me that someone who devotes their life (like my dad) to serving in that capacity should not be allowed to earn a living by doing it? Is someone honestly going to tell me it is wrong for a church to accept money from it's members in order to be able to provide the services it does? Where else does the money come from?

I understand full well that many churches abuse their position when it comes to finances, I just think it's funny that people appreciate the services a church provides but refuse to fund them.

I am not directing this at anybody in particular it's a very sore subject for me having grown up in a financial struggle because my dad felt so strongly that this is his calling that he didn't give it up in the worst of times, and now they are "average" actually still below average but just because he's a pastor and they live a pretty normal life when it comes to finances they get judged.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I agree 100%!!! You have a great way with words!

I have another cousin (something about my cousin's ) who is going through something like this. Her and her husband attend a church, but they feel it is not their duty to tithe. Hummm..."you use the church, don't you"? I asked her this, and it seemed to set a light bulb on, I hope. A church has to survive on something. How can a church provide outreach without it? It's just not possible, or realistic. Even one of my daycare mom's who is currently unemployed and a single mom puts in $5 each week because she uses the church and it's services. It's only fair if you attend the church.

Bee_Kay replied: After Catholicism, I attended an Evangalist church for a few years..... there, the offerings were not required, but any donation (no matter how small) was appreciated.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Before the offering at our church usually one of the elder's prays. During the winter months he asked the congregation if their heating bills have gone up. Then he proceeded to say "yeah, so has ours (the church), now we'd like the ushers to come forth and take the offering". I thought it said a lot, and was pretty witty.

MomToJade&Jordan replied:
I have yet to read all of the posts made in this thread, but this is how I see it exactly. There are two sides to the story and like most situations the truth usually lies between the two. I couldn't have explaind this any better. Thanks Kelly.

luvmykids replied:
And let me clarify, I don't mean that if you don't give money the church would turn you down (not his anyway) or that if someone is struggling they get a call from the church saying "We've noticed your giving has declined", just that for those who are able to give and don't have no room to talk about what a church does do with it's money.

And as for tithing being your "duty" the whole concept of it is that it's a way of honoring God by giving him the first 10% of what He ultimately has blessed you with. If you choose not to, it's between you and Him and you shouldn't be judged by anyone for it just like you shouldn't judge others who do it or make use of the money generated by it (meaning churches).

btw-I don't mean "you" as in anyone specific.

coasterqueen replied: luvmykids -

I do not think it's wrong for a pastor to receive a salary if it's not abused. My pastor lives in a house I could only dream up. He can afford to have someone else paint his house and drives a very fancy car. His wife is a teacher. I've seen his 'salary' because Dh's cousins are on the board. He makes a LOT, more than I think he should honestly.

I wish I could address some of what you said but I'm afraid I can't from my standpoint, BUT my MIL could and has to me, I just forget what she's said about it. The reason Jehovah Witness leaders (forgive me I can't remember what they are called) vow a life of poverty because they want their followers to see that they are truly committed to the religion, teaching others, etc, etc. They aren't homeless, they 'get by' basically. I'm not sure if other Kingdom Halls are run this way or not. I wish there was a Jehovah Witness on this board because it would hel p me out here. Also, where in the bible does it say a person shall make money off of preaching Gods word? I think that could go both ways.

Don't monks and bishops (forgive me on the terminology for Catholics) devote their life to the church and give up wordly possessions? They devote their life to the word of God. This is basically in a sense what Jehovah Witness leaders do (minus being celebate (sp?). Why can't other religions be like this. There are so many sides to this .

Course if you ask JWs they give their 'worldy posessions' to the Kingdom Hall. My IL's live off of roughly $15,000 a year. The rest of their money goes to the KH. They have properties that make money and that all goes to the KH. The KH uses that money to help others, not to give themselves salaries. It doesn't go to building glamourous, monsterous churches. If you look at a KH it's extremely simple designed. Their money goes to helping people. My MIL says that KHs all over the world give more money to aid others than even the Red Cross. Now I've never researched that to know it's true, only her word. Although she couldn't tell even a white lie if she was forced to.

Now I'm finding myself preaching the JW religion, which is not my religion, but they seem to make a lot more sense to me as far as convincing me that they are "in" this for the true word of God. That they really believe it.

Anyways, I guess why I bring JW up is because there ARE religions out there that can show us that it's not about money and they go on just fine. Other religions, well they seem to be all about money. I was disgusted with my church when they chose to give a sermon on how I should help the church out more, etc, etc. I would have rather had a sermon on something a bit more meaningful, if you ask me.

BTW, I've enjoyed this discussion as well. Thank you everyone.

coasterqueen replied:
see I think that's just horrible. How am I "honoring" God by giving him money? Wouldn't I honor him more by believing in him and obeying him?

I can't wait til there is a world without money. Only if it was in my time.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Totally understand what you are saying. When I mentioned my daycare mom giving who is unemployed, I wanted to use that as an example, because here is my cousin, who CAN give, and then here is someone who really can't, but chooses anyway.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Well, think about this...how is God suppose to build his kingdom without it? In our world, it is unrealistic. By giving to your church you are honoring God by supporting his missions. People who are missionaries do not get free flights overseas, food costs money, etc. Without the church being given money, where would his people grow? How could they outreach to others?

On a side note...JW is not a total seperate religion from Christianity. They believe in Christ, God, they just have a different interpretation of the Bible, but they still believe in Christ and God.

jcc64 replied: Huh, very interesting discussion all. I don't have lots of time to ponder these BIG questions with you guys in a very in depth way. A few things stuck out for me, though:





I believe cancer comes from abnormally mutating cell division. Creationism/evolution theories are very different matters from disease. Disease is science- unlike faith it is provable and right here before our eyes. And as someone who has lost cherished family members to cancer, I didn't see the presence of evil- just the presence of sickness and suffering and the inevitable passing of life, which to me don't have to be assigned to the work of a bad guy. If I were predisposed to assigning demonic qualities to any aspect of the human experience, I'd say war and oppression are more akin to evil because unlike disease, there are clear choices that are being made between good and evil. And while we're on the subject of war, I will say that almost without exception, virtually every war or major conflict had its origins in the rigid belief in the supremacy of one religion or belief system over another. Which is a major reason why I am an atheist, or as Tracy calls it, a spiritually inclined heathen.

To the post about sickness and children and how to make sense of that- I see life as random and chaotic, and I don't think illness or the suffering of children is part of a great plan that we are incapable of understanding. I think of it as nothing more than a tragic misfire of nature.

Tracy, your views closely mirror my own. You expressed them far better than I am capable of doing at this moment. So I will let you speak for me. (especially the part about the sports guys! )

My own little disclaimer, lest anyone infer anything confrontational from my words- these are my beliefs (and Tracy's ) and in no way are they intended to confront, insult, refute or denigrate the beliefs of others. We are all entitled to our opinions, and the best thing we can all remember is that they are....opinions.

coasterqueen replied: tannerbugsmom - I agree if you use the church you should give. BUT my point is why should they dictate what you should give? Also why do they need to build elaborate churches when one can attend church in something more simpler of design and doesn't cost so much? They don't needa fancy church to do outreach, do they? Do they need a fancy church to give a meaningful sermon? No.

I think it goes to far and turns people off. I give every time I go to church and up until a month ago I was sending in money weekly too. But every time I turned around they were asking for more money somehow. I should not be judged by ANYONE on how much I give. AND I really do not think God is going to judge me for what I give. Money should not matter to him at all. The fact that I believe in him should matter. that's all.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I totally agree. They should never dictate how much you should give. I have a friend who left a church because of this.

Some churches get big because their donors give big money, plain and simple. I am not a "big church" kind of gal, however, I see good things happening at the large church we use to attend. They offer classes, counceling services, retreats, all to bring God's glory and love and ministry to others. If this money was not given, their services would not have reached as many people as they have. Think of the souls, relationships, etc. that were saved due to their great outreach services. It depends on what is right for you. We don't attend the big church anymore, however, the people running and servicing the church are good people who have outreached to millions, and that is positive. Not every church is legit either. I recommend praying about finding the right church for you. God will guide you if you let him.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I have lost close to a dozen...wait...8 to be exact, family members to the dreaded disease...lung, brain, kidney, and breast cancer. It's my own theory for a reason.

jcc64 replied: And on the big fancy churches-
in a world where so many have so little, or nothing at all, couldn't the money better be spent elsewhere??? just my 2 cents....

luvmykids replied:
Because by tithing you are obeying him It's something He asks for in the Bible.

I don't know much about JW and am not saying any other religion is wrong (and don't know how to quote multiple posts so I'm responding to what you said about JW as well), just trying to explain my beliefs and whats behind them. It still pretty much boils down to what you believe, if a JW must commit to poverty to live according to their beliefs, for them that is 100% fine by me. I just don't think it gives them a right to judge others for living according to their beliefs that may not be that to serve God or be committed to Him means poverty. And how is it so bad for one church to ask for 10% when another, like JW, says it should be basically everything? Why then is the church that believes along the lines of a 10% tithe so horrible and the church that asks for everything is so righteous?

I just don't see how it's fair to stereotype, if JW gives so much to the Red Cross, then what is wrong with my dads church who rebuilt a home for a family after Hurricane Katrina? Smaller scale, yes, but "scale" is the keyword, JW as a whole donates tons of money, a small, independant church, by scale, does the same. Whats the difference? And my point is, that wouldn't have been possible without people who give money to the church.

Like I said, this is just a sore spot for me having seen all of my dads dedication and sincere love of God and people and then it's a slap in the face to say that because he's chosen to do that he should be poor when our belief is that God wants to bless and prosper us not for the sake of having money but for being able to do for others.... my dad is famous for saying "God blesses us so we can bless others".

I hope I haven't offended you Karen, it sounds to me like there is a lot about JW that appeals to you and that you respect your IL's for their beliefs, and I respect anyone so dedicated and committed to their beliefs wether mine are the same or not. I'm not questioning you or them or JW, just again, trying to explain myself.

gr33n3y3z replied:
they should be happy they get money no matter how much ppl. can afford to give or not give They should be happy ppl. are in their church.
I hate how churches become a money issue.
If the Paster or what ever needs more money go get another job to support your high standard of living. JMO

PrairieMom replied:
One of the churches we were checking out when we were searching for a new church had a HUGE congregation and was in the righer part of town. They didn't have coffee and cookeis after the service they literally had a late bar and biscotti. I was amazed. I learned that they were raising funds for a new mulit million dollar expansion project including a gymnasium.
Then I got a letter in the mail from them that they were asking for people to donate a little more because they were falling short on their funds for missions.
humm... something just didn't seem right. Needless to say, we found a different place to worship.

PrairieMom replied:
IMO, By tithing you are acknowledging that every thing you have you have as a gift from God. Its a way of saying thankyou.
That being said, we are unable to tithe. But our church doesn't require it. We give what we can and it is appreciated.

PrairieMom replied:
In our church being a Pastor is a 24 hour a day job. He is on call all the time. He can hardly have a job on the side and still be expected to fulfill his duity to his congregation.
If I have a loved one in the hospital and I want someone to pray with me I don't want to have to wait until he gets off work at his other job to do it.

luvmykids replied:
Which is how it should be.

PrairieMom replied:
Yup

luvmykids replied:
Thats the point I was trying to make about my dad. TY.

redchief replied:
Some do, some don't. Vows of poverty are not required. I know priests with very nice vacation homes.

lisar replied:
I know I said I wasnt gona get back into this but I am keeping it healthy so....

I have done work for preachers of churchs.. And he actually told us that the people that go to the church have no idea what he makes. He paid us with a check from the church and also he has a brand new cadalic car but drives this really old car to church so that no one sees his really nice car. NowtI thought that was wrong. I am also not saying that all pastors are like this.

I got married in a baptist church and had some major issues with it. They wouldnt let us dance....????? If someone could please clarify why on that I would appreciate it. I also had to have a wedding cordinator that was a member of the church that I had to pay who just so happened to the preachers wife...And she rushed us thru everything on my wedding. I told my DH the one decision he made about the wedding was the wrong one. Thats the one thing he wanted for the wedding was the church and it was so bad. I told him we are getting married again on our 5th anniversary and I am gona get what I wanted to begin with. I had a ten thousand dollar wedding that was reuined by the church. I know that is my fault not all churchs are like that. They wouldnt even let us have wine or champagne....



Sorry I just keep going on and on.....

luvmykids replied:
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience for your wedding, period. I can't speak for all churches on their wedding policies but I know ours does not allow alcohol of any kind on the premesis. They don't have receptions there so I don't know about the dancing, and our church does charge a fee of $150 to have the wedding there, partly because they provide the clean up after and also to get people to keep the date, a lot of people were booking the church and then changing places at the last minute which was unfair to others who may have wanted to use it that same date and couldn't. $50 of that goes to the wedding coordinator for the church.

C&K*s Mommie replied: I think this topic was mentioned by others, but I also wanted to add my thoughts. Going to church is not going to get you into heaven, sitting in the pews-checking off that "to-do" for the week will put you no closer to heaven than me saying that I will pray for another. That is not it at all, IMO. And, IMO, God gave you life so that you may live it more abundantly with Him, but it is your choice- ultimately. He will not force you into it, He (again IMO) will not cram it down your throat, as I feel so many Christians (or pseudoChristians) tend to. I am not one to force feed anyone my beliefs, I will not stand on the street corner hollering at the top of my lungs The Word, that accomplishes nothing whatsoever. However, if another has questions than I will seek the answers, and I will try to lead them by example. If no one chooses the path I take, so be it. I am no better than you, and vice versa.

With that said, we are all sinners. No denying it. Scripture (I believe it was Jesus that said it) says, he that is without sin, cast the first stone (not verbatim.... ) well I am not going to cast stones at you for believing differently. If you choose, and that is an IF (again you have that choice) to choose to ask for forgiveness, than all your sins will be washed away. Trust me, I have to ask for forgiveness daily. As far as the east is from the west, that is how far they (sins) will be discarded, forgotten.

IMHO, we all our children of God. A sin is a sin, and we are all sinners. Being good will also not put you into heaven. No one is "good enough" to get there. Good works will not put you there either. There are not enough "good works" to do so. Never will be, IMO.

Again, mentioned before. But man is fallible. Christians, Catholics, Jews, etc... are not any more divine than the next person. There are fakes at every turn, spilling falsehood. Putting to shame what I believe to be the Word. Sad, but Christians are not on high pedestals, to be revered, Christians (actually humans in general) are sinners. Bottom line. But it is where you ask for forgiveness, and choose to receive that forgiveness, and put aside that which you were sinning is the difference. I still sin, I will always, but I have chosen to believe that if I pass on tonight, that there is a place awaiting me. If I never get a second chance to ask for forgiveness, I will have been forgiven regardless. That is (part) of what I believe.

ashtonsmama replied:

I also believe we are all sinners, Nic. And no sin is worse than another, as in we cannot judge, only He can judge. JMHO.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Shall we open the floodgates....?? I think we did and then some! Great discussion everyone!!

ETA: I agree too, my brain was scattered and I meant to say that too.

ashtonsmama replied:
I figured so!

Just thought I'd add it. And thanks for leading such a lively and well-mannered debate!

C&K*s Mommie replied: No need to thank me, thanks goes to the men and women here who can discuss hot topics like the civilized people we truly are, who can respect anothers opinions and not knock them for thinking differently.

ashtonsmama replied:
AMEN SISTA!

You all are a wonderful bunch, I know I've said it before, but PC truly is a great place! Thank you all for creating and maintaining such an awesome community!

MommyToAshley replied: On several occasions, I typed out a very lengthy response, as I often do when I am passionate about a topic, but each time I deleted it. However, I have enjoyed reading your thoughts and opinions.... many of you have done a great job of expressing my beliefs. I'm proud to be part of a board that can discuss such a personal matter with such dignity, maturity, and respect for one another.

Boo&BugsMom replied: [QUOTE=lisar,Jul 12 2006, 06:33 PM] [QUOTE=coasterqueen,Jul 12 2006, 07:44 PM] luvmykids -


I have done work for preachers of churchs.. And he actually told us that the people that go to the church have no idea what he makes. He paid us with a check from the church and also he has a brand new cadalic car but drives this really old car to church so that no one sees his really nice car. NowtI thought that was wrong. I am also not saying that all pastors are like this.

I got married in a baptist church and had some major issues with it. They wouldnt let us dance....????? If someone could please clarify why on that I would appreciate it. I also had to have a wedding cordinator that was a member of the church that I had to pay who just so happened to the preachers wife...And she rushed us thru everything on my wedding. I told my DH the one decision he made about the wedding was the wrong one. Thats the one thing he wanted for the wedding was the church and it was so bad. I told him we are getting married again on our 5th anniversary and I am gona get what I wanted to begin with. I had a ten thousand dollar wedding that was reuined by the church. I know that is my fault not all churchs are like that. They wouldnt even let us have wine or champagne....



Sorry I just keep going on and on..... [/QUOTE]
I can answer a little bit of this regarding Baptist's. It all has to do with doctrine. Don't assume that just because one church's doctrine says "this", that the next will be the same. Even two churches that share the same denomination (Lutheran, for example) may have different doctrine. Yes, it is a belief in some Baptist's churches that dancing is forbidden...ever seen "Footloose"? It was set in a Baptist church. You can choose to disagree or agree. If you disagree, then a Baptist church, perhaps, may not be for you. It is not ALL Baptist churches however. This is where our heads do come in. When searching for a church it is important to look at what their belief system is, what their doctrine pratices are, their mission statement, etc. Personally, I do not believe dancing is bad. Does that mean "they" are bad for thinking that way? No. It's just what they practice. As long as they are teaching that God is the Great I AM and Jesus is our savior, and are teaching from the Bible, the rest is just doctrine, and it's up to the person to find which doctrine sits best with them. Hope that helps a bit. I just don't want people to assume because one church does "this", that all churches think the same way, because that is not how it works.

On a side note, I do not think it's bad that some pastor's have great houses and great cars. For everything that a pastor does, which is quite a lot of hard work 24/7, they deserve it, in my opinion. Before assuming, I think people need to understand how much work goes into heading up a church, big and small.

Kaitlin'smom replied:
I read them, I just think I took the statement different than you inteneded thats all. Maybe worded bad but I understand the point you were tring to make.

mammag replied: Just wanted to throw in that I am Southern Baptist and we were not forbidden to dance. So I think that each denomination can very depending on the pastor/priest/preacher.

For instance, I had a friend who was Catholic. She caught her husband cheating on her with another man and left him. She was kicked out of her church because they didn't believe in divorce. I find it hard to believe that all Catholic churches would have done this. Unfortunately, it completely turned her away from churches whatsoever.

In regards to the money thing....just wanted to share my personal story. I was baptized at World Harvest Church (it's on tv....Rod Parsley). This was my second week attending. The next week was my last week there because he got up there with his mom who said she was writing a huge check out to the church and he then says "anyone in the front wrote not writing a check for at least $2000 shouldn't be in the front row".! I was so completely turned off from that church right then and there and never went back. I was going there because my parents wouldn't take me to church and a friend went there so I went with her. I get a sick feeling in my stomach everytime I pass that place.

There are bad eggs in any establishment and religion is no different. I think you very much have to get a feel for the place and keep changing until you find a church that most closely matches your personal beliefs. For me, I also found it better when I didn't get too involved in the church. When I was an assistant sunday school teacher I became exposed to a lot of the politics (as in office politic type stuff) and it gave me a bad feeling for some of the people there. I'd rather just go and listen to the serman and have it be a more personal experience.

TheOaf66 replied: wow look at all that I missed while I wasn't at work well I would like to add my thoughts on a few things

The tithing (sp?) at our church anyone who is visiting the church or not a member of the church is told specifically by our pastor before the offering that they should not feel obligated to give and that members have no "expected" amount give what you can which is something I like

The whole notion about doing good things and being a good person to get into heaven etc and the post about because the child was born out of wedlock will she go to he!!...none of that is going to determine where you go. The main thing is that you believe in Christ, have a relationship with him, and allow him into your heart. Jesus died on the cross for all of the above mentioned sins so that they would not be held against us so in your prayers you ask for forgiveness for these sins and they are forgiven. That is not to say that you should be sinning like crazy etc but your human nature causes the sin and there is no way around it. Going to church, giving to charity, etc is not a ticked to heaven...believing in God and having a relationship with him is.

I for one am not a pseudochristian (I like that term by the way) where I shove my beliefs down someones throat (I was at a school once that did that though) you belive what you believe and vice versa but I will offer my beliefs in a situation where hope is lost or whatever, if you believe one thing that is your opinion that is "free will" and that is what God gave us...a choice.

I have gone on long enough but I never imagined a post would get so much attention and I hope no one gets offended by any posts on here or whatnot...oh one more thing the whole big church thing, I agree I am not a fan of them. I think it is great they can have all those members and do so many great things but I just don't feel like I attended church when I was there. We moved to a smaller church and it has a more family like feel which I love, I know people, they know me. I have no problem with the bigger churches they just are not for me. Ok I am done now sorry

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Those were good words honey!

My2Beauties replied: This has been a very good debate and I want to commend everyone for keeping it "nice" and not going off on each other. This is a very touchy subject for some.

I guess, all in all, I believe in "something" I believe that someone created this earth but then the earth took on it's own form and evolved. I believe in a higher power, I just don't know to what extent. I catch myself saying all the time, I'll pray for this person, pray for that person, everything happens for a reason, etc... all things that Christians say, I was baptized, I was just turned off from it not to long after I did it. I do pray, I do thank God for everyday, I do thank him for my sweet baby and for the life that I lead because there are so many other people out there in this world that are suffering and have it so much worse off than I ever even thought about. So, I guess my stance is I don't know what my stance is I pray, I believe "some being" out there is listening to me, I just don't know if I think everything that everyone says about "him (or possibly her ) in church and on TV and stuff is always true. I don't know, I believe in miracles but mostly think they are just coincidence etc.... I've seen a lot of sad things, I've lived in some pretty bad areas, I've watched my parents struggle, I've watched the mother of my 16 year old friend collapse at her funeral when she was killed in a car accident because she didn't know why it was happening to her family, why her daughter...when things like that happen it's hard to believe. I don't even know if I believe in the devil vs. God whole ordeal, why does a person eating an apple having to do with sin, why was an apple forbidden - I mean it's all just a little too far-fetched to me. I'm just one confused gal - Karen I'm joining you, I have different beliefs that follow so many different religious paths that it really makes me not religious at all!!!

redchief replied:
While it is true the Catholic Church does not allow divorce, I have never heard of a person being excommunicated for the offense. Further, such an act by a spouse (sodomy with another man) would be grounds for annulment of the marriage.

In the Catholic Church divorce is a civil matter, and holds no meaning in the Church (basically the marriage is forever unless an annulment is granted despite a civil piece of paper to the contrary). Further, there are many divorcees in the Catholic Church who are active, contributing parishoners without annulment.

TheOaf66 replied: hannasmommy, I respect your opinion and I am not one to judge I just want to say one thing about your apple example. The apple was a test, it was to show the "free will" topic I spoke of. I am no theology scholar but from what I do know...the angels came before us and they were created to do nothing but worship God, they did not have the choice so when God created Adam and Eve he gave them free will and the apple was a test...why this test was created I don't know but that was the original sin, going against the wishes of God. Just wanted to share what I did know about the subject.

redchief replied:
According to Roman Catholic catechism angels have free will and are immortal beings.

5littleladies replied:
I think alot of people wonder this, and I think it's actually a pretty simple answer. When God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden he also gave them a choice. A choice to trust him and obey him-To not eat the fruit, or a choice to not trust him and disobey-To eat the fruit. God doesn't want a bunch of robots to love him, he gave us freewill. He wants people who choose to love him because he is a good and loving God. I know it doesn't seem like it sometimes, people suffer and bad things happen, but I believe that is a result of man's sin. I don't know why God doesn't swoop down and fix everything, but I know he has a plan for our lives, and I trust that plan and choose to follow it.

5littleladies replied:
I agree. I don't know anything about Roman catechism, but I know that Lucifer chose to defy God, hence free will.

redchief replied: Is the book of Genesis meant to be taken literally or topically?

redchief replied:

PrairieMom replied:
IMO I don't know if a story that happened that long ago that was passed on for generations by word of mouth before it was written down can be taken literally.

TheOaf66 replied:
The angels from what I know were commanded to obey and worship and if they did not there was wrath as in Lucifers case he was cast out of heaven along with angels who chose his way of thinking. So I guess that was free will just with more restrictions is a way to put it.

5littleladies replied:
I absolutely think it can be taken literally. If you believe the Bible to be God-inspired, then there is no reason to think otherwise.

redchief replied:
Where did Cain's wife come from?

PrairieMom replied:
Ed... are you TRYING to start fights?

My question is after Cain killed Able god put a mark on him so other people wouldn't harm him and he went away to live among other people. Where the heck did all the other people come from?

5littleladies replied:
Wow you are making my brain work overtime on this topic Ed. I don't know where Cain's wife came from. I've heard lots of theories, but I just don't know. One that strikes me as being a good possibility is that his wife was his sister(ick, but they did things differently back then). People lived to be incredibly old back then (take Methuselah for example) and there is no reference that I see to a timeline, so I see no reason why this could not be the case.

Ed you have always seemed to me to be a strong, devout catholic man. Do you ask these questions out of sincere curiosity? Or because you want to know if people really understand what they believe? Or something else?

Boo&BugsMom replied:
We're just all a bunch of inbreeds (sp?)!!!

redchief replied:
About time someone turned one of my questions on me. The Catholic Church teaches that the Book of Genesis is topical, but the events described happened within that context. Much of this is still being discussed by faithful theologeans who have spent lifetimes studying the bible and still we can't be certain. One thing is certain; as we grow as a species, we come to understand our world better. The Catholic Church believes that this can not be contradictory; but revelation. In many cases, especially in matters of human behavior, the bible is contradictory unto itself. The only explanation for that is that as we grow, our level of understanding increases, thereby changing our translation of God's Will.

These are the reasons I've been asking questions more than giving my opinions. All of the opinions here have merit, and I'm using this time to learn about how others live their faiths, and what they think God (or the world for that matter) wants of them.

coasterqueen replied: Wow Ed, that is very interesting and I like your post about all this. It really does make a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

luvmykids replied:
You read my mind!

redchief replied:
On the contrary Monica, et al. I am learning what others think of the world. Mostly we talk about everyday issues... This is the first opportunity I've had to really read and query others on their cosmic perceptions. I'm fascinated by this entire thread and the deep feelings everyone has regarding our place in the universe.

luvmykids replied:
I love it, Ed. You ask questions I don't even think of. You are so intelligent and well spoken and although you are passionate and sure of your own thoughts/beliefs you are open enough to still learn from others which is in my book a very admirable quality.

redchief replied:

Thank you Monica.

ashtonsmama replied:
It's true. I admire your eloquency? Is that the right word?

I'm trying to sound smart here!

Bee_Kay replied:

OMG ITA!
I wish I had the ability to phrase my thoughts the way Ed does. It truly is admirable!

ETA: The only way I'd be able to sound like him is to be constantly looking at www.dictionary.com and www.thesaurus.com

ashtonsmama replied:


Barb, you crack me up.

redchief replied: Point of order... I've been clear that I am impressed with the positions put forth by all of the members on this topic. My eloquence (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, I've contributed little to the discussion in this thread. I've been the one doing the learning here folks, and I thank you all for sharing what is to each of you a personal and heartfelt community with the physical and extra-physical. You each have exhibited a depth of being that I'm not certain I possess. Again, thank you all.

Jamison'smama replied: Most everyhthing has been said and I really don't have anything to add--I will just share my views.

I consider myself a Christian. I was raised attending church 3 x a week. I went to a private high school, I went to a Christian University. I was immersed in the Christian faith. That being said, I have questioned everything as I would imagine most thinking people do.

I certainly believe in the basic Christian doctrine but I leave room for various interpretations. Even scholars differ on their translations/interpretations. I have read many sides to various topics. I was raised in The Church of Christ –very strict. I learned to find my own compass.

I have questioned everything pertaining to religion –I think we are called to question and seek and find answers. We may find them in different places and in different ways. I feel comfortable in my beliefs, they may not correspond fully to the church I choose to attend but they follow close enough that I feel comfortable.

I think it is fine to practice your faith in your own home, in a corn field or wherever you feel suits you spiritually. I like the church atmosphere, traditions, and the gathering of like-minded individuals.

I feel it is okay to question, seek, and be completely confused at times. It is normal and I believe, expected so that we keep seeking knowledge and don’t become stagnant in our faith.

redchief replied: Well said, Brenda!!!

I too spent a period of my life searching for meaning in everything and feeling betrayed when none was forthcoming. I returned to the Church about 15 years ago, comfortable that I needed God's presence in my life, and with the realization that everything would not be revealed to me in this existence. That doesn't stop me from searching, but grounds me in the knowledge that I may not find what I seek in the time I have allotted to the subject, or in which I have in this existence.

luvmykids replied:
Well said, Brenda. And I know my faith would not be as strong as it is today had I not searched, questioned, and re-discovered it on my own.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Brenda, as well.

Notably with this quote:

jcc64 replied:

Very well said, Ed. I have rarely heard someone acknowledge and adddress the Bible's many contradictions so eloquently. Your interpretation makes much sense to me.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Have you ever heard about Joan of Arc?

Hillbilly Housewife replied:

So - are you insinuating that you will never have cancer because of your faith?

and if you do get cancer, will you fight it with medication? Since, according to you, if you get the devil's cancer, it's been allowed by your God... so you won't fight God's will? or is it his will that you fight it and live? or is it his will that you fight it and still die? And if you do die, can you still be strong in your faith knowing that your god allowed you to be "killed" by the "devil"?

Am i making sense?

C&K*s Mommie replied: IDK for certain what she was saying Rocky, as I cannot speak for her. But I am doubtful that was what she meant. I think she was saying that all good things come from God, and evil things from the devil. Certainly we are all susceptible to all many forms of cancer, and no your faith is not the "shield" that will protect you from staying cancer free. Those that believe that are mistaken, as are those that spew that nonsense. It goes back further than just this statement, so you could not take that at face value, without understand the meaning behind the statement. As I said, I cannot speak for her, she has to come speak for herself.

TheOaf66 replied:
she will once she reads this, she is at a childrens museum with her daycare kids right now but I am sure she will read this a bit later but I am quite sure she will agree with you nix

Jackie012007 replied: I have been searching for most of my teen/adult life... my parents never forced religion on me, and after my grandmother died of cancer, it was very hard for my dad to go back to the church... he left it when I was 7. I was baptized a Methodist, but never went except on holidays because I liked the singing and the cool service. A few months ago, I decided maybe DF and I should look into going back to the church since we were planning to be married in one and we are both Methodist. We went to a church of no denomination, and at first it was really cool, they sang and danced and the discussion was fairly open. Yeah... then I found out I was pregnant (out of wedlock, *GASP*). It turned into a friggen contest, WHO CAN SAVE THE HEATHEN FIRST... people from the congregation were calling me constantly, trying to force their opinions on me about my pregnancy, one women even tried to convince me to have an abortion to get back on the good side of the church... ummm no thanks. WHAT A TURN-OFF! Needless to say, we left. We are now looking into the church I was baptized in, we have a new young female minister and she is VERY cool, very down to earth and interesting to listen to. My church also had a vote to recognize gay marriage within the church, so now gay people can have marriage ceremonies in the church and be recognized in the church as being in a committed loving relationship... which really won me over.

As for the tithing and stuff... we don't do that. You can donate but it is certainly not expected of you. They don't even pass a basket, what they do is if you would like to donate, you sign up for an offering envelope to come with your newsletter. we have a LOT of really poor people and the new minister wanted to take the pressure off... I totally respect that. Our minister is provided with a very humble home on the premise of the church, but makes a salary that is just enough to pay her bills. She lives very plainly, and like others said, is on call 24/7. I like her and we will be making the 2 hour drive to attend services on sunday... we'd like our child to be baptized and they are accepting of the fact that we are not married... but we will be getting married in august after he/she is born in January! what an exciting year for our families!


edited because holy crap I can't spell

jcc64 replied: That sounds like a community I could get behind. You're lucky.

Jackie012007 replied: yeah, we are hoping to get my dad back into the church using the baby (heehee)... he loved it so much growing up and it's sad to see him wishing he could go back but I guess there are a lot of painful memories for him... my grandmother was very very active in the church and he and she were very close as he was the youngest. Hopefully now he will want to join us, especially when we have the baby baptized and stuff!

redchief replied:
Ahem.... Excuse me Jeanne! But aren't you supposed to disagree with me, giving equally eloquent counter-points, in order that the other members may watch you and me debate with glee?

Thanks Jeanne.


ETF bad grammar!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I've been sitting on the sidelines, but I thought this was a good article if any of you are interested Why Does God Allow Suffering I just wanted to add to that that he is preparing a place for us with no pain and suffering...that is our ultimate reward.

The bible may have been written thousands of years ago, but it still pertains to our lives today. There is not one question that cannot be answered by looking in the bible. All of the answers are right there. God is the way, the truth and the life. He is always the same.

As for the original topic. It's simple...it's all in Genesis. God created the Heavens and the Earth. He wanted earth to be just like heaven. He created man, then saw that man needed a help mate. He took a rib from Adam and created Eve. Evolution was never mentioned. Ever notice that you have one more rib than your DH? He gave Adam and Eve a choice and they sinned against him. That is why Earth is the way it is. Because man fell short of the glory of God. We do it everyday. We are all born sinners, but can be saved by grace.

As far as tithing goes, our church uses the tithes for all the missions in the church. Not only so we have a nice place to worship, but so the youth group will have the money available when they go into the mission field to spread the word of God. So there will be plenty of money for the kids who have never heard of God, to attend VBS. Not to mention the countless missionaries we give money to who are spreading the word of God to the people overseas who have never once heard of Him...as well as the people in our own country.

Why believe...why have faith and trust in something you cannot see?
I may not be able to see God, but I can feel His presence in everything I do and every decision I make. I can reach out and touch Him and know that I am saved. There is a peace and understanding that I obtain b/c I've accepted Jesus Christ into my heart.

This is a good discussion

TheOaf66 replied:
thanks for the article and I loved your response

redchief replied:
Men and women both have 12 pairs of ribs.

I loved the article though. It was very insightful.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I stand corrected.

ashtonsmama replied:
Amen.
with all said.

C&K*s Mommie replied: Very well said, Aimee. I agree with it all.

I am on my way now to read the article... thanks for posting the link.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I found another great website that can answer any and all questions you may have (with biblical references). Creationism

This one in particular was asked... How Long Were the Days of Creation?

redchief replied: I know that Genesis says nothing about evolution, and that question is at the epicenter of this discussion. We are faced with the scientific facts of evolution daily. In short we have been observing evolution throughout human history, from the height and hairiness of the average human then and now to average life span. We are evolving as a species even as we argue whether evolution exists. Scientific fact exists in all of the world as we witness the extinction and emergence of different animal and plant species.

Given those indisputable facts, and strong in the knowledge that I need a personal relationship with God, I have reached the same conclusion as my Church. Genesis is meant to be read topically. The coexistence of biblical text, especially the oldest books, with science requires that compromise between literal and topical fact must be reached, else all science must be discarded as heresy. That would be tantamount to insisting on only looking at the pictures in a magazine and saying I know what it says within, disregarding the words in the articles. It just makes no sense. God has given us a complex universe to live in, and he's given us some clues as to our nature and relationship with Him. He continues to allow us to learn and become more intelligent so that we may better understand not only ourselves, but Him.

The Old Testament of the Bible lays out rules regarding the treatment of slaves, but who among us now still feels as though slave ownership is appropriate human behavior?

jcc64 replied:

Exactly. This is one "debate" where we are more or less on the same side, so no fireworks available in this thread (at least between us, Ed).

redchief replied:
That's okay... I kind of like sitting on the same side of the room with you!

coasterqueen replied:
So very true. I don't see how anyone can deny this.

luvmykids replied: Aimee, I love that article, thank you. I never know how to respond when people ask questions like that but it sums up my beliefs exactly.

luvmykids replied:
I've heard this compared to the wind, we cannot actually see the wind, only feel it and see the results of it, such as leaves blowing. That is how I sum up my faith in the Lord. It's a feeling as well as tangible and not so tangible "results" of it, whether it be prayers answered (that I know are not coincidence) or just a general peace that for me, personally, is not found through anyone or anything eles.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Not to sound rude, but I usually don't answer posts when people put words in my mouth. It's ok to ask questions when you don't understand where someone is coming from, but this was a little bit over the top, in my opinion. I have said enough on this matter and encourage you to go back and read ALL the posts.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
My husband knows me quite well. Thank you for clearing that up, as I was gone today on a field trip! That is exactly what I was trying to say.

ashtonsmama replied:
I guess that God allows some sickness as part of His plan, but it's hard to come to terms with that, personally. I guess I believe that. I do think that Satan does have something to do with that as well, and God doesn't just randomly kill innocent people...I don't know how to put this into words, sorry. I'm not making sense.

Boo&BugsMom replied: I would like to say one more thing. No matter what church you go to there are always going to be people that rub you the wrong way. The reason being that nobody is perfect, therefore, no church is ever perfect.

gr33n3y3z replied:
its life we deal with it

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Zen Mommy, I can't help but to be compelled to actually answer this. For one, nobody is "untouchable", I never said that and never will. Second, for me personally, if I were to ever get cancer, then I am not sure what I would do. I believe that God has brought us people who are doctor's for his purpose and to help mankind. However, I have met people who have gotten cancer and refuse treatment because they think that God will take them when he takes them anyway. It's a personal choice for each person.

I would like to offer this story: When my cousin (here I go with a cousin of mine again ) was 4 years old, she was struck with a very rare form of cancer. The doctor's even gave her a zero percent chance to live. She started taking an experimental drug which helped somewhat, but the doctor's didn't give her any hope. One day she miraculously got better after many months of prayers. She went through 20 years of remission, then due to having an ultrasound needed because she was pregnant (we call him the miracle baby because they wouldn't have found it otherwise), they found a cancerous tumor. All while this was happening, she was not a believer. Today she is cancer free, is a believer, and is living quite the happy life because of her relationship with God. Now, in my opinion, I do not believe because she saught out treatment that she was going against God. However, I do believe that God allows things like this to happen in order to WAKE people up. Sometimes people hit rick bottom before they realize God is calling out to them, believers, and many non-believers. In this case, a non-believer. Things always happen for a reason, and all reasons are different. It's up to us to find out. Now, if she would have died anyways, or tomorrow for that matter, does this make a bit of difference? YES. Because before, if she would have passed she would not have went to heaven. As sad as it sounds, if she were to die tomorrow, at least her soul will be with Jesus. Regardless of the final outcome, the wake up call was needed and will make a difference.

As for the last question, I am content in knowing that when I die that I will be going to heaven because of my belief in Jesus Christ, so I really have no fear in dieing, even if it's something causes by Satan himself. If God decides to take my soul tomorrow even, I will be in the happiest place that ever existed. God knows what is best for all of us, and if he had to test me by letting me get a terminal illness, NOTHING can make me curse him and turn my back on him. That is what faith is all about. I don't know about you, but I think Earth sucks, and I'd rather be in heaven where there is no suffering, sickness, violence, and unhappiness. And it's up to God "when" and if we go there, not us.

I hope this all made sense. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

C&K*s Mommie replied:

This will be a little off the subject, but along these lines. A recent guest speaker (Pastor Satterfield an education pastor) at our church was mentioning 9/11 and the grandiose plan of Mohammed Atta and his brainwashed followers; Also he mentioned UBL in the same sentence too. But if at that moment UBL decided to drive a plane into him while in church... so be it. He mentioned that he (UBL or Atta) would lose twice. Once for what killing another human, and twice, well for dying and not following the One True God (again you have a choice to believe). Pastor Satterfield would only lose once, and that would be his life, but he would be in Heaven so technically that would not be a loss.

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Thanks Jennie - I was asking to get your insight, not to be rude... I apologize if you took it that way - I tend to come across the wrong way sometimes when I don't know quite how to word things. Not that I want to use it as an excuse... but English is my second language, and sometimes I can't quite get what I'm trying to say ''out'' without sounding a bit harsher than intended...

I'm glad you answered my question.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Hmmmm...Ed I don't know. I've never thought about it nor have I questioned everything I've read in the bible. (thanks for making my mind work ) I do know that slavery still exists. I did find this article and I thought it was pretty explanatory Slavery in the Bible. I really don't know much about evolution and I won't claim to, either. One day I hope to have all the answers, but that time will not come while I'm on earth, of that I'm sure. Some things are meant to go unknown, unanswered...it's all a part of having faith.

I will tell you what I know to be true. I've followed God my entire life. I believe in the Trinity (Father, Son and the Holy Spirit). God has never steered me wrong and history proves that He has never steered any believer wrong. I have faith in God just as sure as the next person has faith that the street he's driving on will not crumble underneath him....b/c history proves that day after day he drives down that same street and the same thing happens. Just as time and time again I've put my trust in God and the same thing happens...He delivers. We put our trust in lots of things and sometimes we have everything to lose. Why is it so hard for people to put their faith and trust in God when they have nothing to lose, but IMO everything to gain? Have I lost anything by doing so? Never. Have I ever felt like a fool for trusting in Him? Absolutely not. Have people tried to make me feel foolish? But of course. Have people tried to cast doubt in my mind? Yep.

Can you give me scientific proof of these other theories? A lot of questions are being asked for scientific proof of the bible. And yet no other proof is being presented on the opposing side. If one really studies the bible you will see that the biblical times are much like present times. Things really have not changed much at all. I say 'change'. Should that be confused with 'evolved'. There are many degrees of evolution. I do believe that certain things can 'evolve' in a sense. But I was under the impression that we were discussing the evolution of earth and man and whether or not it evolved from nothing or from our Creator who has a master plan.

Another article More on Evolution


I'm sorry if I dont' make much sense. I'm pretty bad at these sorts of things (thus the reason I give lots of links from people who share my similar beliefs but can express it in writing so much better than I) and I'm trying not to 'debate' but just share my personal views and experiences. I know I've learned a lot by reading this thread and I thank all of you who contributed.

Jackie012007 replied: hey guys I'm wondering what you believe/how you feel about victims of violent crimes, ie a child abduction, rape, ect... there is talk of disease and what people's views are of how it comes about, and the victim, but what do you feel about this? I'm especially interested in what you have to say, TannerBugsMom... you're very eloquent and your posts really interest me!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
I probably speak for everyone here when I say that I think it is devastating and all are horrible crimes.

Do you want to be more specific?

Jackie012007 replied: sorry I was kinda vague... based on your belief system, where is God in violent crimes, what is his role in violent crimes, why do they happen, what about the victim and the offender (what happens to them, why does it happen)... better?

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
I gave my stance on this in another reply...

Here is the link in case you missed it. Why Does God Allow Suffering

PrairieMom replied:
I think that as yucky as it is, everything happens for a reason. The victem of the crime isn't necessarily the one that needs to learn it either. Maybe Its the nurse that takes care of the victem that learns the life lesson. There is no way of knowing. In my life I have learned a lot, and also seen a lot of good come from very yucky situations.
What about a teenager that dies tragically in a car accident, but through organ donation ends up saving the lives of many other people? What is tragic for one family can be an answered prayer for many others.

As for criminals, Well, the bible says that believing in Jesus will get you into heaven. I guess if you truely repent before you die, then I believe you get in. as much as I hate to believe it. I guess it's not my place to judge tho.

Boo&BugsMom replied: Jackie, thank you for your kind words.

Zen Mommy, I can totally understand where you are coming from when it comes to not being able to word things when you want to. I sometimes feel that way and English IS my first language. Glad to answer your questions, and I am glad that you didn't mean any offense. No feelings hurt.

On the note of victims, if it means anything, I myself have been a personal victim to sexual, physical, and mental abuse. I do not blame God one bit for what happened to me. I do however know, that I may not be the person I am today if certain things didn't happen to me. Is that good? Bad? I don't know. But I do know that everything that has happend to me has made me a very strong person. If I wasn't as strong, I don't think I would have the life, job, etc. that I have today. Everything that has happend to me has molded me into the person I am today, good and bad, and the things that have happend to me have only drawn me closer to God.

luvmykids replied:
I don't like it much either, but the Bible talks about how one sin is no greater or worse than another, in God's eyes a sin is a sin. My personal belief is that yes, true repentance and acceptance of Christ as Saviour do allow anyone into Heaven and true repentance before God means that in His eyes it is erased. On one hand it bothers me to think my "small" sins are no different in God's eyes than some more disgusting/inhumane/tragic but at the same time I also choose to accept that it is that very same grace and mercy that offer me salvation.

I also believe that it's not just a certain phrase but a matter of the heart and soul which only God knows, IMHO most who commit those kinds of acts are not capable of true and genuine repentance and remorse, therefore I don't think there are a lot of those who even though they may say the right words, actually have the right attitude in their heart and make it there.

And I can't speak for others, but as terrible as God's wrath can be, He is also fair and merciful so for me, thank the Lord (no pun intended) that He truly is my only judge.

gr33n3y3z replied:
I have been also at the age of 11
The best day was when the B*****D died last year which I was so happy bc I knew I would never run into him again ever.

But the bad is I have a hard time trusting ppl. and I never reported it bc I didnt want my Dad to go to jail for killing him bc thats what he would have done and it turned me into such a Hard a$$.

The good of it was
I'm very cautious for myself and my girls they will never be allowed to babysit
unless its for family.
And that my Hubby is very understanding.

Did I blame this on God or anyone Nope and I still dont Its just one of those things in lifes lessons and you learn from them.

When my Mom died of breast cancer when she was 49 I didnt then but I did question as to why and no answer which I knew that

When my Dad died I did the same.

I believe things happen for reasons which we may never know I know they just make us stronger and become more aware and in most cases makes us better people.

Jackie012007 replied: wow guys... okay I might as well share. I was raped at age 15 and then again last year except that time they beat the $hit out of me and almost killed me at my college. and I'll admit, I have a hard time not being like God wtf??? what did I do? It's been a struggle (especially with my faith, that was practically non-existant to begin with), I felt for a long time that I must have done something truly awful to deserve something like that... more than once especially. I know we are supposed to forgive but I don't think I ever can. It's still hard for me to be like ohwell, you live and you learn... but I must agree, if anything I am a lot more hardened/wisened, but if this baby turns out to be a girl, I dunno what I will do... I don't want to be a jailor and punish her by being way too strict because of what happened to me, especially since my parents were very strict and I was a very good, careful kid and it still happened to me. I'm trying to become active in my old church, but it's more for the baby and my father than for me... guess I am still bitter . I wish I could be strong and more positive like you guys, but it is hard for me

gr33n3y3z replied:
You are getting stronger bc your talking about it
I walked around for 18 years never telling anyone and after I told Ed and my brother it was the best thing I could have ever done.
It takes time it just doesnt happen over night.
Just remember you did nothing wrong and its ok not to forgive the person who did it nor forget but we cant let it ruin what joys we have today.

redchief replied:
Aimee, first let me assure you I'm not questioning your faith, nor do I pose my questions to ridicule anyone's beliefs. Everyone has to decide where they stand on this issue based upon their faith, their knowledge and research. We are discussing evolution or creation. My position has been all along that the two concepts can co-exist.

I can no more prove the theories of the Big Bang and evolution than I can prove whether the ancient writings in the Old Testament of the Bible are literal fact. The research required for either or both are beyond what I may devote on my own. Therefore I must go with what I've learned and mesh that with what I believe in my faith. The argument I put up regarding slavery was simply an example of biblical contradiction and I could have chosen something all together different. Whether we call it slavery or indentured servitude is immaterial, those concepts are still contradictory to the way in which civilized people live today. I also didn't say that slavery was totally abolished in the world. The sad truth is that you are right, but those of us who have drawn our civilization beyond that abhore the practice. The article you posted was very interesting and exactly what I look for in my theological research.

I've not asked anyone to prove anything. It would be unfair of me to ask of someone else that which I cannot do. I've put forth some of what I believe and the reasons I believe them, and I've questioned the members on some of those things in life and faith that I question. I don't question for lack of faith; I question because I believe it is God's will that I learn and gain greater understanding in my journey through this life.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied:
Well said, Ed. As usual.

ashtonsmama replied:

Very well put!

Maddie&EthansMom replied:


Yes, very well said.