For those with kids in public school - And with strong religious beliefs

luvmykids wrote: How do you handle it when the school is teaching something you are strongly opposed to either religiously or morally? I'm not going into specifics because I don't want to get off track, I just heard about some things that are being taught in the school I may have to send the twins to next year and am trying to kind of prepare for how to handle that kind of stuff....

There is a really great private school I want to send them to but I'm not sure I can afford to send Macie also when the time comes and I feel if I'm going to do it for one I have to do it for all, so I am considering the public elementary school which has a great track record but has me concerned with a few things.

I'm not trying to completely shelter them or raise them in a bubble, there are just some things I prefer they don't have to know about in elementary school

MommyToAshley replied: Ashley isn't of school age yet so I hope you don't mind if I answer. First of all, I would go straight to the source to confirm the "accusations". I would make sure I understood the school's policy and had it in writing. Last year, there were a set of twins that pulled out of Ashley's preschool based solely on the fact that someone told the Mom that the teacher read the 4 year old class The Passion of Christ. This was false and did not happen, and the mom never even thought to ask the administrator or the teacher if it was true.

If you know for a fact that what you suspect is true, then I would probably not send my child there unless there is a policy change. That is one of the reasons I am sending Ashley to a private school. It will be a stretch for us financially, but it will be worth it in the long run. The other sacrifices we may have to make are worth a little peace of mind. Now, I only have one child, I don't know what I would do if I had to afford to send more than one to private school. I am not helping much, am I?

Kentuckychick replied: It's really difficult to say without knowing what they were teaching... I think I may suspect where you are coming from, but of course... not sure

I went to private, Catholic schools from K-12th grade and many would be surprised to hear some of the things we were taught...

Evolution for one. The stance was that it was something that would eventually be learned, be that in high school or college, somewhere along the line we would have to learn the theory of evolution, why not have the knowledge early enough to know it when they time came. And we learned it as just that... a theory. And learning about it, with an open mind at the same time I learned about creation really changed how I feel about it. Like my college bio teacher told a fellow classmate of mine who didn't agree she should have to learn it "well it will be on the test and it is your choice whether you pass or fail the test. You do not have to believe in or agree with something to learn about it."

THEN (sorry, got off track a bit)

There was "sex education"...

The school might actually have gotten in trouble for teaching this, but in our high school "life choices" class we were taught, not only abstinence, but the old "banana" trick, safe sex, birth control, and we even talked about *gasp* homosexuality. All with the understanding that while our belief is that abstinence is the only way to go, there are things that you "should" do if you "chose" to have sex. I don't think it affected any of us negatively.

Now, in your situation we're talking elementary school and they are learning things you don't yet want them to learn... then you should discuss the matter with the teacher, and/or remove the child. You can shelter your children, but you can't shelter everyone's children. And sadly, this day in age... if what you're talking about is what I'm thinking... the earlier it's taught, the better.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well my kid have always gone to public schools. The stand is the school can't basically teach religion. Or they have to teach all religion. You know they can you what Christain believe and what Catholics belief in general buong..t they cant give an opionion on which is right and which is wrong.

They do teach evolution..Brittany learned it this year. In 11th grade kids know what is right and wrong.

I would ask the school there policies and not take it by word of mouth.

We have never had a true problem.

luvmykids replied: I guess I am being a little paranoid about what I've been told and Dee Dee, you have a good point, to verify the "true" story.

One of the things involved a debate on evolution, it was in one of the older classes, and the problem I have is the kids didn't get to choose which side they were going to defend. I have no problem with them being exposed to the theory of evolution, but I don't think they should be required to defend something that is opposite of our personal beliefs, kwim? The girl I heard about tried to explain to her teacher that she doesn't believe evolution and would rather switch with someone who didn't care either way and the teacher wouldn't let her (supposedly). To some I know that sounds very petty but it bothers me for some reason.

The other thing is regarding homosexuality; all I'll say is in elementary school the less my kids hear about it the better. I just don't think it's an appropriate age to be tackling that kind of subject regardless of personal opinions or beliefs, kwim?

I may get slammed for wanting to shelter my kids too much or for being too conservative but I just don't agree with the way the school (allegedly) dealt with a situation with a teacher there who is gay. That is fine but I don't think it needed to be emphasized if that makes any sense? Tolerance is something I already teach my kids but I feel the school stepped over the line of tolerance; IMHO that means agreeing to disagree, not telling children their parents are wrong for not "accepting" it. Not at that age.

The whole story is really too long to go into, I don't know if the tidbits I just described was enough to give a better idea of what I'm concerned about

Kentuckychick replied: I agree with all arguments you make to some extent (of course to the extent of, since none of us were at the debate we don't actually know what happened).

I've personally had to debate things in a debate class before that I didn't believe in or agree with, but we drew our positions out of hats and that was that. In this example though and it being a public school. I agree that this was a wrong situation, but I just don't believe creation should have ever been brought in.... in other words, my argument would be that this never should have been a debate, not that the girl couldn't choose her side. I will be honest, I'm not a very religious person anymore, and a big reason for that is because I see the mess that it makes in our society. It's a public school, religion isn't allowed. So again, why that debate?

As far as the homosexuality thing goes, being a child development major we talk about this a lot. It is not a teacher's job to discuss homosexuality in depth with the children. period.end of sentence. Yes, children are curious and I know that there will be questions if there's a child in class who has two mommies or daddies. The problem with this is that it's worse to just not answer a child's question... it leaves them more curious than they were before. So we are just told to say that their are many different types of families and that "joe's family" just has two mommies/daddies.

I don't know that a private school would be better in this situation because if you're teaching tolerance... many private schools teach intolerance at all ages... so it's really a no-win situation there.

As for the teacher, he/she has absolutely NO business bringing his/her sexuality into the classroom. Just as a heterosexual teacher shouldn't be talking about their life with the children, neither should a homosexual teacher. That, I would say is absolutely unacceptable.

Edited to add: PS. Just so you know, after studying child development for 4 years, and observing in many, many, MANY classrooms... my kids are SO getting homeschooled for the first 5-6 years! So it's not just you who sees these issues!

redchief replied: As a CCD (Catholic religious ed.) teacher and a parent who has sent his kids to public school for most of their school-aged years (the boys both did short stints in private catholic schools for as long as I could afford the tuition, but by fourth grade all were in public school), these topics are important to me, too.

Since I teach eighth graders, I've had to tackle issues where faith and science and sociology don't necessarily agree. I've found two online documents extremely helpful in providing insight into the catholic positions on the topics at hand. I shall post them not in order to try and sway anyone from their position, but to show that faith leadership is trying to balance faith and scientific knowledge.

The first is Adam, Eve, and Evolution from Catholic.com's Catholic Answers archive.

The second is Homosexuality, also from Catholic Answers archive.

Both of these documents outline the catholic positions on the major discrepancies we see in faith teaching and science. In the case of the first, the Catholic Church does not attempt to sway the faithful into believing or not the biblical wording regarding the origins of the universe and man, but suggests that faith and science must agree for both come from God. It gives some alternative topical ideas on the translations of the book of Genesis, and takes on the questions and inconsistencies therein, while maintaining that regardless of the time-line, God is responsible for our origin.

The second document explains the catholic position on homosexuality and, indeed, other forms of unnatural behaviors (that is, that since the act of procreation can only occur between a man and a woman, and this is God's plan, homosexual acts are contrary to God's plan). The Church maintains objectivity in the origins of homosexuality, waiting for substantial proof either way, while stating that all persons, whether they be homosexual or not, are called to be chaste, and treat the act of procreation with the respect and reverence God intends. It further goes on to state that regardless of the person's view on homosexuality, God requires us as human beings to treat all people with respect and sensitivity.

These are what I tell my kids (my own children and those I am charged to theologically prepare for adulthood), and it seems to allow them the freedom to make their own decisions while still reinforcing the moral objectives of faith.

luvmykids replied:

I think that depends on individual definitions of tolerance; to me it means you can disagree with the lifestyle/moral choices/whatever you call it and still respect the person as a fellow person, kwim? So for me, the schools I would like to send them to do teach that which is basically to treat others with respect and dignity without it meaning you compromise your personal beliefs, does that make sense?

And honestly, the problem is not with these two specific "issues" as much as that I don't like the way the school has dealt with them, does that make sense? I don't live in a bubble, I know they will be exposed to all manner of things. I never thought I'd say this, but just the thought of what they may hear on the playground these days makes me consider homeschooling

Thank you both for your insights, I'm overly analytical sometimes and don't know if I'm really making too big a deal about this plus I think the thought of them being school aged freaks me out all by itself, it's a whole new level of parenting that I'm not sure I'm ready for

I appreciate the links, Ed. Gave me lots to chew on!

Hillbilly Housewife replied: I went to a Catholic school all of my life.... and things that weren't "cathoice" were still taught.

Why?

Well... because we live in a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religion etc world... and while some of us may be catholic and live by the *word*, other might not... and the reality of it is, if you only learn one way, then you clash with those of us who've learned about more than one *way*.

That's what causes many of the religion based-wars, the racist people who don't know any better, and the homophobes who think it's abnormal for same-sexed relationships.

A catholic school should still teach the theory of evolution, and all about nuclear families, including those with only one parent or those with same sexed parents... because deep down, medically, scientifically and physically, sperm meets egg is how babies are made, not *god sent us a child*. Although, some of us religious folk might like to believe so. So, an approach that teaches the teenager how to be safe and protected about it, isn't an entirely stupid idea. Because if they're not taught about it, they may not know that it's wrong when they get there.... ya know?

And about homosexuality... well just the fact that people *shun* homosexuality in catholic schools in intensely hypocritical, in my opinion. Love your neighbour etc etc etc....

boyohboyohboy replied: i totally agree with you, My husband and I are going thur this same delema right now. He just does not agree with what the public school teachs. our religion is most imortant to us. we have been checking into private schools also, but are concerned with the price.
I worry about how we will handle disagreements with the school. how it will affect their education if we disagree with the school and how much control we are really going to have when it comes to a disagreement...we so wish the voture program would go thru.

redplaydoh replied: If it's questionable to you, talk to the teacher and voice your concerns. My sis is a teacher and those parents that have concerns she works with, either letting them sit out that topic in the library or watering it down so that everyone is happy.

MommyToAshley replied: I completely get what you are saying.

Last year, there was a news story about our public school system. There was an uprising about a Christian group that wanted to start an after-school program and meet at the high school. It was not allowed because of "separation of church and state". But, then a group of teens was allowed to start a gay support group and that was approved by the school. I don't have a problem with allowing the gay support group to meet at school, but I do have a problem with denying the Christian group to meet. Neither group has anything to do with school, but are after school programs. To me, it sends the message to the kids that gay rights are ok but Christian rights are not. Where is the tolerance for those that believe in God? I can see if this was a mandatory class, then sure it would be forcing a religion on someone. But, this was a volunteer program, just as the Gay support group was. In my opinion, it should have been recommended to both groups to find a different venue.

The elementary school also does a "family life" unit in which they talk about different kinds of families... mom and dad, two dads, two moms, etc. I do not care for this and do not think it is the school's place to teach this... one way or the other. It's not that I want to keep this a secret from Ashley, but when we do talk to her about homosexuality, I would like to explain our beliefs and teach tolerance at the same time. The story Amy told about what happened in her workplace is just appalling to me.

After struggling with the issue, I have decided that I just can not send Ashley to the public school. There is also a private school that I decided against even though it has a good academic record. I decided against it because it does teach their Church doctrine and is less tolerant of those that deviate.

The school that I am highly considering for Ashley teaches Christian values but doesn't go into Church doctrine. And, I feel like I have more input in this school than I would in our public school system. I have met with the teachers and the principal, read their written policies and observed their classroom and this school is more conducive to our lifestyle.

If you are that conflicted with the policies and curriculum of the school, I would encourage you to at least explore other options. Every family is different and that's why there are other choices available. It doesn't mean one school is better than the other, but one may be better for your own family. Good luck... this is such a hard issue and I have struggled with it for some time.

coasterqueen replied: I don't know how to handle this personally, but I remember a girl in high school whose family was EXTREMELY religious and if they taught something she didn't believe in she would leave the room, seriously. If anything was done that she did not like becuz of her religion, she did not participate in. She was a straight A student, but I don't know how not participating in certain things hurt her grades if any.

I know I didn't really answer your question though.

Kentuckychick replied:
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said!

AND, I am thankful every single day that I went to a Catholic school that was so open to discussing things outside of "church doctrine."

We also had a world religions class that I really enjoyed.


I think that the reason I'm not so religious anymore... or as I would call myself a "recovering Catholic" is because I see those individuals in my religion who are so unwilling to learn anything else, so unwilling to be anything but literalists, and it makes me even more thankful for my upbringing.

jcc64 replied: Well, it seems like "defend the liberal position" day for me here on the board today.

Dee Dee and I have gone back and forth on the separation of church and state issue many times, and we're nothing if not consistent. I believe that the story about the gay students group vs the Christian students group is not a good platform on which to make that point. Being gay is not a choice- and an advocacy group at school is probably one of the few refuges available to kids struggling with being part of an oppressed minority. They can't go to the gay church on Sunday, or CCD or Sunday school, or Bible study groups, or any of the other countless venues and outlets for people who are so inclined. I am fairly certain that the Christian students could have found an alternative location, at say, a church maybe, that would have gladly hosted their meetings. I am also pretty certain that there aren't too many churches that would extend the same hospitality to the gay students. A public school building may be one of the only places they COULD meet. And it's not about the school promoting one group interests over the other. They are simply allowing the use of their facilities where appropriate, and not when it's not. If for no other reason, they don't want to wind up in court over a separation of church and state issue.

I think Dee Dee made some excellent points, however, about the specific issue of the original post. It does sound like you'd be more comfortable in private school. She's right that you will have more input as a parent. Some christian schools are pretty reasonably priced. I'd at least explore your options. Good luck.

MommyToAshley replied:
I am positive the reason that the school made these decisions was to avoid ending up in court. Unfortunately, in an attempt to be politically correct, many organizations shun the Christian community. Even though the school may not have wanted to promote one agenda over the other, by allowing one group to host their meetings at the school and not the other, I think it does send that message.

jcc64 replied: I suspect you're right about that Dee Dee. I think while it may not have been the school's intention, I can certainly see how it could be interpreted that way.

And you are scrupulously compassionate and non-judgmental. I love to have these conversations with you, because you present your ideas so diplomatically and articulately. Even if we don't come to the same conclusions, it's much easier to hear your points when the rhetoric isn't so inflammatory or dogmatic.
I think if everyone with a microphone or access to the airwaves communicated like you do, we'd all be more civilized!

jem0622 replied: I think that the important thing you need to remember is that raising our kids is a team effort. And we should not expect our schools to fully shape our kids. What they learn may influence them over time, but that is just a part of them developing into whatever and whomever they will be.

If you feel very strongly that they will be repeatedly fed information or facts that you don't support, then you may want to consider homeschooling if you cannot afford private school. Many families do this.

I can honestly say that my parents never sheltered me from anything or spoke in any way that would cause me to dislike any one individual, group, or belief. And I am so very glad that they did.

redchief replied: I personally see no "separation of church and state" issue with either a Christian group or a gay rights group utilizing public property to meet, albeit a school or community center. Allowing either type of meeting isn't a stamp of approval from school officials. It's simply a meeting of a focus group utilizing a facility funded by the public. Is this any different than allowing, say a basketball team or chess club to use school property outside of regular operating hours?

Our school has a public library attached to it. This facility is mutually beneficial to the school and the community. That library has many books with religious themes. Public funds have paid for those books. Does that violate the "separation of church and state?"

The bottom line is that it's up to us, as parents, to instill the values we want our children to hold as they grow. In a free society it's a sure bet that ideologies contrary to each of our moral standing will be presented to our kids. I've encouraged mine to keep an open mind, but also to apply their moral measure to ideas that are introduced to them. Sometimes I'm pleased with the conclusions they come to, and sometimes I'm disappointed. I can't tell them how to think, only how I think.

MyBrownEyedBoy replied:
I disagree. The point of debate is to be able to prepare valid arguements for either side. Regardless of your personal feelings/beliefs. Debates like this actually are done more for learning research skills then actual persuasion, I think.

cameragirl21 replied: ok...i have a feeling my opinion is going to be really unpopular here.
here's the thing--when i was little, i went to both Jewish school and public schools...when we first moved to the US (i was born in the former USSR) i was sent to a Jewish school that teaches half a day in Hebrew and the other half in English...problem was, i didn't speak neither English nor Hebrew and no one in the school spoke Russian. that said, i was trying to learn two languages at once, and not just speaking, also reading and writing. when my parents noticed me trying to write in English from right to left (which is how Hebrew and all semitic languages are read and written) they realized it was time to take me out of Jewish school.
the problem was, as a Jew i was a minority in public school, all of our arts and crafts centered around Christian holidays, like we made bunnies at Easter time and Christmas type projects in the winter and for this reason, i am sure that when it comes time for me to send children to school, they will go to Jewish school, whatever the cost.
being gay is certainly not like being Jewish but both are minorities and both are often discriminated against, especially gay people. for this reason, i can understand why a public school would allow a venue for gay students to meet...they likely have few other options. the downside of not being a minority is that sometimes you too get discriminated against in this reverse discrimination mode, such as what happened to the Christian group. at my public elementary school, there was a Christian study group that met afterhours and all my friends wanted me to go and could not understand why i could not attend with them...these things are hard for young kids to understand.
however, i will say this--some years back when i was babysitting, i took a girl i was babysitting to a baseball game...she was about 10 or 11 years old and had been going to Jewish school her whole life. when we stood up for the national anthem, i automatically sang along and asked her to do the same. she said, "i don't know the words." i'm willing to bet though, that she knew the words to the Israeli national anthem. if you check out any Jewish school, the fly both the American and Israeli flags outside. in as much as Jewish schools are renowned for their great education and they are great for Jewish kids because they are not made to feel like the minority that they in fact are, there is no excuse IMO for not teaching both the national anthem and the pledge of allegiance, i took personal offense to this.
like i said earlier, my children will go to Jewish school BUT there is no way in hades that my kids will grow up not knowing the national anthem so i plan to supplement their education in the things i think are lacking.
that said, i think that is the key when it comes to choosing your kids' school. no school is perfect IMO, there will always be a missing element. for instance, for me, i have a problem with the fact that Jewish kids in the sixth grade in Jewish school have no idea whatsoever that they live in a predominantly Christian world. as a result, Melissa, that girl i speak of once turned to me and said, "i can't believe anyone is so crazy as to believe in Jesus." and i said, "Melissa, most people in the world DO believe in Jesus and you're going to get yourself in trouble if you go around saying that to people." i think this too is dangerous. just as dangerous IMO as a pastor telling me that i'll go to hell for not accepting his religion's way of thinking and teaching an entire school (this pastor i speak of headed a Baptist school) that this is the case...this is what leads to wars, hatred and divisions in people.
i think personally that whatever a person's beliefs are, as long as that person is harming no one then s/he is free to believe in it and this goes beyond religion, some people argue judgements in science, such as whether people are born gay or if they choose to become gay. the key is to teach tolerance for all and if religious beliefs are such that they precede all else in any family and thereby this requires sending kids to a religious school, i believe tolerance needs to be taught as well, simply saying that you should be proud of your beliefs but that not everyone subscribes to them and that this is ok for everyone.
education is paramount but tolerance is crucial, IMO they must go hand in hand or a person is not truly educated.
JMO of course.

Boo&BugsMom replied: I have not read everyone's posts, but I am glad that this came up because I am dealing with the same issues in my head, even though I am a positive product of public school. I do have that same issue with evolution being taught. I don't care if it's about learning research or not, there is no reason the teacher couldn't have been respectful to her beliefs. It wasn't that much to ask, IMHO. The teacher seemed to have no tolerance, and isn't that what it's about? Tolerance?

One thing I have been told is that they introduce it as a "theory". They can NOT teach children that "this is what happend". They can only teach it as a theory.

As far as the homosexuality thing, I wont get into that because I do think it's a lifestyle choice, which is my opinion. But that's not the issue.

The only thing I want to point out is that I'd like people to know that just because some of us would be more than happy to send our children to a private school and not have to deal with this, doesn't make it an easy reality. In our situation, there is no way we could afford a private school. We are a dual income and can just make our bills. We don't have a voucher system. SOme people think it's just as easy as "just choosing", but it's not. We have no choice but to send our children to public school. I have no problem with my children learning about different opinions and things (even other religions), but the tolerance has to go both ways!!! Sometimes, that tolerance only goes one way, and that is what upsets me. Thank God our community and city doesn't seem to be as crazy as some other places I have heard about. They still sing about Jesus's birth at Christmas along with songs about other religions as well, and things like that. It makes me at least a little more comfortable knowing that. For me, it's not about exposing my children to other things. It's about our faith being respected!!!

Tanner will be going to K next year. I plan on having a meeting with the principal and his teacher about what we believe and how I'd just like that to be respected. As far as I know, as long as other religions are respected and able to use the "opt out for religious purposes" card, you can too.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
ITA! This is the crud I don't like. If you do something for one, you need to do for all. I am so glad the public schools I went to were not like this. We had support groups for every religion and it was great! I hope they stay like that.

I also feel that if the theory of evolution is being taught, the theory of creation should be taught as well. You don't have to use the term "God" to teach creation, you can use the term "higher being". I just think this whole world has gone crazy about trying not to offend people, that there are some groups being left out because some people are offended way to easily. I'm not saying anymore, because I may get my blood boiling.

Monica, I hope you can confront the issues you face and hope you come to a conclusion. I think in any case, it's always good to have that open communication with your children's teachers.

luvmykids replied:

Ok, this is not directed at you, Jennifer, but a perfect example of what I was afraid this thread may come across as....my concerns are not that my children be exposed to the things mentioned, or be intolerant of them. My concern is that I feel I should be, especially in the elementary years, able to temper that exposure and limit it. I absolutely 100% feel it is NOT an elementary school teachers' job or within their bounds to introduce, explain, or debate homosexuality with third graders.

I'm bothered by what may possibly be the root of the issue, which is basically the argument Dee Dee used, which is that it seems to me so many who cry tolerance are just as intolerant as they accuse me of being when they refuse to tolerate my morals, beliefs, etc. Believe it or not, I am very tolerant and firmly believe I can do so without swaying my own personal convictions. I just wish that at school my children were afforded the same opportunity. I am just as offended at what went down with the teacher discussing homosexuality with third graders as many of you would be if she had read them a Bible story, who gets to decide my feelings are less valid?

Anyhoo, this is what I didn't want out of this thread but guess I should have expected it I didn't want to get off track on who is or isn't tolerant, what is right or wrong with our schools, etc. I genuinely wanted to hear how other parents with beliefs similar to ours may have handled/plan to handle this type of thing.

I thank everyone for your input, I have a lot more thinking to do when it comes to this.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
This is the exact reason I chose to send my kids to a private christian school. My beliefs do not belong in the public spectrum.

There's no doubt that the basis of a christian faith starts at home with the mom and dad, but my DH and I wanted our children to be taught the same things at school that they are at home. We make sacrifices for this. No, I'll never have the new house I want or drive a new car again. I don't have the latest electronics or the latest fashions. It's a struggle and a sacrifice, but it's worth it. Most of the families there are just like our family and they are struggling to make that payment every month. But the school is well aware of this and respect it b/c they know we make this choice for a reason. To me, it's nothing about stigma and there will always be those who judge or misunderstand. But we all make the right choice for our own family. I would never give up the solid christian core they are helping build in my child. It's priceless. It's what is important to me. And on top of all of that, it's a college prep school. Just this week I've been having some issues with Maddie. I can't begin to tell you how awesome it felt to have her teacher call me at home to discuss and pray with me about my concerns. She reassured me that she really gets to know these children individually and not as a class whole. We have had nothing but a good experience so far. Even when my doubts got the better of me, they have always come back to prove me wrong. They want to work with you and want you to get the best experience possible.

Monica, I think you should go visit a private school in your area. They are doing their enrollments this month, most likely. Most offer financial aid and a break on siblings. They may even offer something since your father is a minister. Check into it. You won't regret it. Even if you think you can swing this year with no financial aid, once you are in they are more inclined to give financial aid to existing students.

Obviously I don't have my children in a public school, but I attended one and so did DH. I'm not opposed to what or how they teach necessarily. I just want the close knit community and the christian education that a private school offers (not in this order) Maddie needs it.

When I was in high school and they started teaching evolution in my science class, my science teacher told the class that if anyone should refuse the lessons on evolution that we could sit in the hallway and we were given another lesson. If my memory serves me correctly, we had to write a paper on our beliefs of how we were created.

Good luck, Monica. I know what you are struggling with.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
ITA!!!

luvmykids replied:
ITA and want to make clear I have no problem with public schools in general, do not think less of parents or kids in the public school system, etc. I'm another product of public high school and turned out just fine (I guess, depending on your point of view ).

I have appointments next week at two private schools and the public elementary school they would attend if I went that route; I also got the names and numbers of some members of the PTO there just to be fair. On a positive note, academically it is an excellent school and still fairly small; they do a lot of "small school" type of things like craft fairs, hay rides for the whole family, etc. I am pretty sure that I know where I want to ideally send them, it will come down to cost though unfortunately I think I can swing it for the twins, I'm just trying to look ahead to two years down the road when I'll have three in at the same time. But I guess that is a bridge to cross then and in the meantime the immediate cocnern is getting the twins situated.

And FWIW, it is important to them too; we've talked about the options and without my prompting they both said they want to go to a school that teaches them about God. They would love to attend K at the school they're in now for PreK (which is a Christian school) but since we moved the drive is slowly becoming a grind for all of us

MommyToAshley replied: That's great that you have made appointments at these schools, including the public school. That's the first step. I can't say it will be easy to make a final decision. DH and I even differ a little in our opinions after visiting the schools, so that made our decision even more difficult. So, when you go to visit the schools, don't take your DH... Just kidding.

And, I agree with you about public schools. I don't think public schools are bad and I hope I didn't give that impression. There are several things I don't like about our public school system, including their academic record and their class size limit. They have 35 kindergartners in one room with one teacher whereas the private school cuts it off at 20. That's a HUGE difference. But, not all public schools are like this. If we had lived in another school district, I may not have even considered private school.

Please keep us posted on how your search goes!

Hillbilly Housewife replied:
Jennifer... not to sound harsh... but that type of thinking / teaching etc... is directly related to the main reason why a lot of Jews are segregated from the Christian population. Jewish schools tend to teach that Judaism is *THE* religion of choice (as other schools do as well)....and so the main population (being mostly Christian...) tends to clash with the Jewish population because of that different belief.

Jews just tend to be discriminated more against, simply because they're a minority in population compared to Christians. Christians get discriminated against as much as Jews, from the Jews... but it's not seen as much because the ratio of religion vs. religion just isn't as high. But I digress... it doesn't really matter.

It's dumb, really. I mean... why can't we all just...get along?!

cameragirl21 replied: actually, Rocky, from my experience, Jewish schools simply teach as if Judaism was the only way...they don't go into other belief systems because the premise is that you have a school full of Jewish kids and the point is to make sure they learn how to be good Jews. This is why Jewish kids who go to Jewish schools have no idea that they live in a predominantly Christian world when they finish the sixth grade (which is usually the grade that Jewish schools go up to) and to me that is problematic...by sixth grade you do have to have some concept of the world you're living in.
I imagine that Christian schools teach from the same perspective, they just go into their beliefs without touching on the beliefs of others. In either example, a child will grow up believing that their belief is the only valid one. For me personally, I'm not very religious and I don't speak Hebrew (other than the basic Jewish prayers which are all in Hebrew) so it's not a matter of sending my children there so they can get a Jewish education but rather so they are not made to feel like a minority, which in essence is what they are. I think when you are a minority your kids will always feel more comfortable when they're surrounded by kids who are like them whereas I was one of just a few Jews in the class and had to explain why I missed school on a Jewish holiday, why I don't believe in certain things that other kids believe in, why I don't celebrate Christmas, etc. So for me Jewish school is just a means for Jewish kids not to feel different or left out.
Like I said, it comes with certain drawbacks in that you grow up in a bubble so to speak and don't realize that you ARE a minority and I think it's easier to adjust to being on the outside when you're younger than when you're older. I also have an issue with the fact that these schools, from what I've seen focus so much on Israel and that the kids are Jewish and don't focus enough on the fact that the kids are
Americans. Like I said before, not teaching the national anthem is unacceptable IMO.
As far as Jews discriminating against Christians or anyone else, I just want to say I'm sorry if any of you have experienced that. I personally have nothing against anyone's beliefs as long as they harm no one. I don't agree with certain things that other religions teach but it doesn't preclude me from respecting and befriending people of those religions. As I've said many times, I am a godmother in the Catholic church and even though I don't agree with many of its teachings it doesn't stop me from participating with my godson and making sure he gets a Catholic upbringing, even though it is a struggle for me because I don't really have enough knowledge to be doing it without a struggle.
i agree though, Rocky, that bottom line is that we all should just get along, religion is just another thing that creates differences among people.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
Actually Jennifer, it's quite opposite. In many Christian schools around here (maybe more upper, than elementary) children can take religion classes to learn about different religions. Of course they don't focus on them like they do their own, but it educates them about the religions on the world. They are not "worshipping" those religions, but they are learning about them. I took one in college and I loved it, to be honest. Much different than elementary or middle school, but those classes are present in many Christian schools here.

On a side note though, when someone is that true to their religion, no matter what, they will always think their religion is the only true way. Why would someone be religious if they thought their's wasn't the true way? KWIM? WOuldn't make much sense to me. However, building the tolerence to know that not everyone thinks like that is important, but as a Christian myself, I believe I would be blasting Christ if I said I didn't think he was the only way for me to get to heaven. Make sense? It wouldn't make sense for me to think that other religions are just as "ok" as my own. When someone is true to their religion, it doesn't work like that, IMHO. But, I still have respect for people who choose differently, even if I do not agree with them. Not all my friends are Christians, and still love them as much as I do my Christian friends.

jcc64 replied: I think Aimee and Dee Dee gave you the most constructive advice, being in a very similiar sitution themselves. It sounds like you are being very methodical and thorough in your exploration of all the different options available to you. I'm sure your kids are going to be in good shape no matter where they wind up, because their education is obviously a priority to you. Both of my parents were lifelong educators, and my mom always said that school is just one factor in the fulfillment of a child's potential. She always cites the culture at home as the single biggest influence- if education and faith are important to you- your kids will succed anywhere, with their morals and beliefs in tact.
And don't discount the possibility of a generous amount of financial aid. Most if not all schools with multiple siblings give aid. Good luck.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:

I'm not picking on you here, Jennifer. I just wanted to use your quote as an example.

Maddie's school teaches the students about all religions and all denominations. When she graduates from that school she will be an infinite book of knowledge when it comes to others' religions. What good would it do if they didn't teach them WHY they are christians? Seminary teaches the same thing. Most ministers know and can answer questions about any religion and can decipher the difference. I am open and always willing to learn about the other religions and cults out there. I would expect the same from my children. This is one of many reasons why we chose this school.

They will also go into evolution from an opposing point of view, of course. Instead they will teach them why we believe in our Creator and that He created the Heavens and the earth. Again, what good would it do to shelter them from this knowledge b/c when they get in the 'real' world they will need it. Not everyone that attends this school will go on to attend a private christian college, although most do.

Crystalina replied: I attended a very strict Catholic school until 7th grade. It was the Catholic way or no way to them. I still have nightmares about the nuns! Going to a public school was a fright for the first few months and quite boreing because I was way ahead of them educational wise however, I learned so much more in public school. The good and the bad.

I think that if you do not want your kids to learn certain things that may or may not be taught for whatever reason then it would probably be best to homeschool them. You have to understand that these teachers are teaching. That's what they get paid to do and most of them do it great and with much passion. I don't see how a parent can walk into into a school and say I don't want my kid learning this or that or I don't want it taught that way because that is not what we believe or that is something that I want to bring up when the time is right. For one, there are many other kids that are in that class who's parents may not have a problem with it or who may want it to be taught and they do think the time is right for their child to learn. The choices you, as a parent, would have is to either find out when that certain something you don't want taught will be taught and keep your child home or like I said homeschool.

BTW, this is for anyone who has issues with what a teacher is teaching and not for the original poster of this thread. I can't remember who started it because I walked away for about an hour. Unless the teacher is teaching something that is outwardly offensive then that should be brought up to the Administration. But if it is something that has been ok'd by the schoolboard and the teacher has a green light to teach then I say they should. I'm not saying that we as parents are trying to put our kids in a bubble or be overly protective but in a way we are because they are our babys and we want to shelter them from this scum of a world for as long as possible. It's our job and only comes naturally to us. We cannot be blamed but at the same time other parents may not have an issue with certain topics and if we mesh our children into a learning enviroment with others then we cannot always call the shots.

Hillbilly Housewife replied: Yes, Jen, that's what I mean - Jewish schools teach pretty much only judaism... it's *the* religion... there are no others. I thin unless you're in a school that has nuns as teachers (like my mom went to) religion isn't really taught, at least not in detail, until 6th grade, and even then, it's not really a Cathethism (sp) class per say, but more of a general religion class, touching on the other religions out there as well. At least, that's how my classes were, and it was an optional one at that.

I meant the discrimination, in the sense that the Jews from those schools have no clue that they are the minority, and they treat the others like they (the jews) are above them, because theirs is the true religion...

I'm just blabbing.

In any case... my kids are going to school for an education, not for a bible lesson. There's just so much less crap like gang stuff in catholic schools.

MommyToAshley replied:

This is so true... especially if you send the twins. I have heard a lot of stories of the school working with parents that already have children in their school system. Don't be afraid to ask about scholarships or financial assistance.

Boo&BugsMom replied:
I wish it was that easy here. So many schools wont give you financial aid unless you are dirt poor and on assistance, and I don't know why.

luvmykids replied:
Exactly, thank you for summing it up for me