Election

lisar wrote: I got this in an e-mail. And I just watched it. its 13 minutes long, however it is worth watching the whole thing. And dont be all hating on me I just thought I would share it.

http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

my2monkeyboys replied: Very interesting.... thanks for sharing.

cameragirl21 replied: I watched the video, thanks for sharing it. I am not a huge fan of Obama but he scares me less than Palin does, simple as that, nuff said.
That said, I just want to say that what I'm about to say is not very pc at all but I think it needs to be said. First off, as a Jew and a hardcore Zionist, I am not a big fan of Islam. I have nothing against Muslims as people but I have studied Islam quite extensively and find some aspects of it disturbing. That is jmo, of course.
BUT people REALLY need stop this whole Barack HUSSEIN Obama crap. He is not a muslim. Yes he went to a madrassa as a kid, just as any kid may be sent to a religious school only to turn away from those beliefs as a grownup. Yes he has an Arabic sounding name but to keep up the Hussein this and Hussein that bs, come on, that is just a cheap shot imo.
And btw, this is nothing at all against you, Lisa, I just see this as the right wing's newest game of "let's bash Obama". If you have something concrete against him and his policies, fine, but what's with the constant Hussein crap?
I think both sides play pretty dirty, personally and it's uncalled for.

lisar replied:
Wasnt his father muslim though? So that would make him that way right?
Correct me if I am wrong though.

Kentuckychick replied:
Unlike ethnicity, religion is a choice. You may be born into a Catholic family, or a jewish family or a muslim family and you may even be raised with the beliefs of that religion... but you have the right to choose to change that as you get older. I'm a Catholic by birth and a Catholic by some belief... but that's my choice. I don't have to be Catholic simply because my mother is.

Barack is only a Muslim if he chooses to be and as far as I know he's not.

I agree on this one... the comparisons to Hussein and Osama need to stop. It's childish and ridiculous that at this day in age we cannot have a black candidate of muslim decent running for presidency without this kind of crap occuring.

cameragirl21 replied:
he's been going to see that hatemonger preacher for 20 years at some church so he's definitely not a muslim. he can be any religion he chooses, just as someone raised in saudi arabia as a muslim can move to the US and become a Catholic if s/he wishes to do so.
I can see plenty of reasons not to like Obama or to be wary of him but why keep bringing his middle name into it.

PrairieMom replied:
My father is an atheist. Wouldn't that make me that way?
no, I am a christian.
My name is German. My family came from Germany, but am I a Nazi? no.

TOTALLY extreme, but see where I am coming from?

ETA: I only watched 5 minutes of the 13 min. video, but I didn't hear a single thing that would matter to me, like specific things he is going to do to fix the economy, or what he is going to do about he war on terror, or the environment, or taxes... to me those are the things I am interested in talking about. A man's middle name or who his father was have very little IMO to do with how he will run the country.

My2Beauties replied:
No, my mother is Catholic and my dad is Baptist, does that make me mixed? I don't understand what you're saying. Not trying to be rude but religion is a choice, it's not like ethnicity, race, or gender. I was baptized but honestly I don't follow any religion exclusively.

Calimama replied:
Exactly.

I heard a girl today say she wasn't going to vote for him because he's a muslim from Iraq. I really wish people that ignorant were asked to take a test before being allowed to vote.

PrairieMom replied:
scary isn't it? that the media can spoon feed us one little snippet, we take it as gospel and make HUGE lfe altering decisions based on it. I fear for our children.

Don't get me wrong, I fall for it too, its so hard to know what to believe.
Its like that Sarah Palin thing. They announce her for VP one day, and people are all WahHOOOOO she's the one for me! a friend of mine had "palin for president 2012" flair on FB less than 24 hours after the announcement. really? who is this lady and where did she come from? how could we possibly know in that short amount of time, and he had totally bought into it hook line and sinker.
Seriously, I don't care what your feelings are on whatever, but KNOW what you are talking about, and not just what you have been spoon fed my he media.

msoulz replied: OK, and even if he were a Muslim, so what??? Most Muslims don't have any desire to strap bombs to their chests. It's just a few radicals that get all of the headlines. But hey, let's play on our insecurities and put it out there!! More votes for whoever is running against the evil Muslim!

The whole thing is just sickening.

JMHO

my2monkeyboys replied: The thing about his middle name is totally ridiculous. He can't help what he was named any more than any of us can. Now, if he changed it when he was older to reflect some personal belief, that would be a different matter.

Calimama replied:
That's the other thing that gets me.. what the heck is wrong with being Muslim? I would elect a Muslim president if I agreed with his values in a heartbeat. To be scared of an ENTIRE religion, culture, race because of a group of bad people is ignorant IMO.

cameragirl21 replied:
Tara, you are German?!
Well, that's it then, I am NOT your friend anymore.






lol, j/k, had to throw that in for a few giggles.
Ha, should have known once I saw those evil looking blue eyed, blond kids of yours....

PrairieMom replied:
I know, the afro sometimes throws people off. I am also polish and Norwegian, so... you know.

and truthfully,, anyone who knows Al personally knows, calling her evil isn't a stretch.

Crystalina replied:
I'm so glad you two said that because that's what I was getting ready to say. That is no different then the way Muslims were (and still are apparently ) treated right after Sept, 11th. He is totally NOT a Muslim but the man has a right to be if he wants to. I know many Muslims and they are not making bombs in their basements just as I know many "rednecks" who aren't out lynching people and African Americans who aren't waiting to pop a cap in your a** (and to be fair I'll also use my background...) I know many Puerto Ricans and not one of them carry a switchblade. Imagine that!


Also, I'm Catholic. DH is Methodist and the children are neither at the moment. They will pick when they are ready. More then likely they will pick Methodist as we all attend a Methodist church. (DH can't keep up with all the Catholic kneeling. ). It doesn't bother me in the least bit. I do my rosary and even cross myself in the Methodist church.

This is America and you can vote for who you vote for but as Tara stated at least know who you're voting for and vote for the right reasons. Know the facts. I would never judge someone on who they voted for. It's their choice but when you vote or do not vote for someone d/t nasty rumors or complete lies that is just ridiculous and I agree (although it's your right) you should not be voting.

Lisa, I haven't watched the video yet. I'll do that in a few minutes.

HuskerMom replied: Thanks for sharing, it was interesting.

jcc64 replied: This is directly from the Obama website. It can't be stated any clearer than this:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/christian

The people that are perpetuating that kind of "information" and I use that term VERY loosely, are not interested in discussing the serious issues facing this country right now. They'd rather pander to the worst instincts in people through outright lies and fabrication.
If you don't support Obama, fine, but do it based on the facts. I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but we can't afford to take the low road anymore- we're in BIG trouble economically, and we need to figure out who the best candidate to lead us through these dark times really is.

PrairieMom replied:
the sad thing is that things are so messed up, and skewed that 1/2 the time you THINK you are informed, but really aren't .
Also, as in past elections, Due to the electoral college, it doesn't really matter how informed YOU are if you are swimming in a sea of idiots, your vote won't matter. My vote never matters, my measly 3 electoral votes always go to the other guy.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Well I like most people think that being Muslim is a family religion. Like in the Muslim countries. No one leaves it. It's like being Jewish, it's not really just a religion isn't it also an ethinic background?

I do have a problem w/ someone being Muslim and my president. Remember when we were discussing Palen, and Cain. Everyone threw a fit b/c he had voted for something against women making the same wage as men, and then of course we have discussed the abortion side of things. How can we ever vote against someone who thinks a woman can't decide what to do with her own body!

But, don't most people who practice Muslim religion believe that woman are below men. Don't they believe that women are actually owned? Hence the cover they most always wear? Hence the education they don't usually recieve? They are basically servants from what I have seen and read. And I have even seen people discuss on her the way they are treated in their countries.

I have never read the Korean (sp?) so I am not sure exactly what they believe when it comes to women! But I think I might study up on that a bit more.

I know for me I wouldn't want a president who felt like women were substandard. I know he has a wife and daughters and you would never think he THOUGHT that way. But was he raised to think that way?

Also I do have a problem with the name HUSSIEN..maybe it's my redneck backwoods rais'n I just think it leads to so many other questions? I am sure I admitting my ignorance..but I really just hate the whole darn name!!

Umm what was the bumper sticker I saw the other day?? Oh Yeah..is Obama the Anti-Christ???

msoulz replied:
OH, that is another topic altogether - don't get my ignorant self started!!

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I hope it isn't being implied that we are idiots if we vote differently from you, Tara. I'm just sayin'. I'm not voting for a democrat and I have done my homework. This does not mean I'm an idiot. I just have different views and beliefs that I will not compromise. And I accept that not everyone feels the same way about these issues.

In all honesty, I don't watch the little youtube videos that go around on the internet. That's not what I base my vote on. I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would.

It's hard to find the truth in any politics. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. I just try to stick with the core issues and not get pulled into all the other hype.

PrairieMom replied:

what I am saying, is that if I am proactive and do my research, and vote, but there are 3 other people out there that don't, and believe Obama is a Muslim because a box of waffles says so, I am out numbered.

I have a history here of being very open minded and tolerant, so I hope y'all don't misunderstand me.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I just wanted to tease you, Tara. I knew you meant no harm.

cameragirl21 replied: I am just posting this for information purposes.
Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity, it's a matter of choice, not birthright. By Islamic law, having a Muslim father makes one a muslim but this is only valid to those who follow Islamic law. Islamic law means nothing to a Christian, Jew, Sikh, atheist, etc.
Many people do leave Islam and this is considered a capital crime. Someone who leaves Islam is called an Apostate and is often marked for death, depending on the circumstances. I have spoken to some that have had attempts on their lives, some have had multiple attempts.
Obama is a practicing Christian, although his church has been somewhat questionable in its teachings. He does not practice Islam, at best, to the Islamic world he'd be considered an Apostate, which is what they hate the most.
As for treatment of women, it is definitely rather depraved in much of the Islamic world. The Koran is not so much anti-women as the Hadiths are, and some, if not all have had their authenticity questioned so it's unclear what historically is Islamic teaching on the treatment of women. What you see happening in saudi arabia is an invention of the al Saud family and not truly what the Koran teaches. There is nothing in the Koran about women having to be veiled, etc.
Whether or not one is comfortable having a Muslim president is another story, imo. My original point was simply that Obama is not a Muslim and it's a really low blow to be using his name against him in that fashion. If you hate his policies or his plans for our country then that is fair game but taking pot shots at him because of his name, which none of us get to choose btw, is to me just a desperate attempt to get votes.
Right now, Obama is leading slightly but the presidential throne is still totally up for grabs. I was undecided until McCain chose Palin as his running mate and sided with Obama. There are still plenty of unsure voters out there and their votes are certainly up for grabs. I think Team McCain has every right to go after them with a vengeance but please, use facts and real info, don't try to get votes by trying to convince people that Obama is some sort of white hating, Jew hating, terrorist wannabe, that is just not true.

jcc64 replied: If you want to read up on the Muslim religion, more power to you, but if you're doing it to become a better informed voter, you're wasting your time--Obama is a Christian.

And about the name thing, Sarah Palin's kids have weird names, too- (what's a "Trig" anyway) but I don't see how that has any relevance to my life.

cameragirl21 replied:
lol, when I read an article about her and read that she said, "Trig is just the best thing ever" I thought she was referring to trigonometry! I was thinking that I had no idea that Palin was a math geek!
Btw, so there's no confusion, I tutored algebra, geometry and trig in HS and college and don't think of myself as a geek so when I say math geek, I don't mean it in a derogatory way at all, it's just a figure of speech.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: I figured she was referring to a trigger-you know on a gun.....

Either way I don't see the correlation between a name that is different (think Pilot Inspector ) and the concerns that are raised by the name, up-bringing and subsequent writtngs and statements made by Obama....

Crystalina replied: Oh Dear God people! Obama was not raised by his father. He was raised by his mother. His father left when he was very young.

Obama’s autobiography, Dreams from My Father, published in 1995 says :


So really. How much influence did his father have on him I ask? His father was the Muslim, the one who named him (hence the Muslim name...can you fault a man for a name given to him by his father????? And if so, should he change it to appeal to the rest of the world??? ) his mother was NOT a Muslim. Maybe that's why it didn't work out between them. She was a strong-willed woman. I don't understand how some of you can judge a man based on his name and what his father was. It boggles my mind.

PrairieMom replied: [/QUOTE] I don't understand how some of you can judge a man based on his name and what his father was. It boggles my mind. [/QUOTE]









I'm NOT. I just can not stand behind a man that eats waffles. Thats all I'm saying.

Crystalina replied:
See now Tara!!! That's even worse. WTH is wrong with a waffle eating man?

Geesh, you probably only go for the flap-jack kinda guy.

TANNER'S MOM replied: Okay his father who left him, was a Muslim. But then why did he attend Muslim schools? I mean that I had to factor in somewhere. He wouldn't have attended school at the age of 2?

Just a question?

It won't change my vote. I couldn't care if he was a scientologist, or an atheist. It doesn't matter to my vote!

Also I would like to state for those who think we should have to take a test to vote, that alot of people died for right for each of us to vote. How smart w/ you really shouldn't come into the the picture. I guess if my IQ was 70, I shouldn't vote? I think most people who take the time to vote, do so b/c they feel their thoughts matter, and they take the time to read, listen, discuss issues..no matter how smart they are..even us backwoods rednecks.

Calimama replied:
Since I made the comment I'll address it.

I didn't mean an IQ test, I mean a test on the candidates. The smartest person in the world could vote but now NOTHING about either candidate and I would say the same. Heck I wasn't even serious, I just don't think people should go into voting uneducated about the person they are electing to run our country. I'll add an IMO.. so no one takes offense.

mammag replied:
I completely agree with you on this Mel. A person's IQ has nothing to do with issues that are important to them or problems they may be facing. Sure I wish people would pay more attention to issues but like you said, people gave their lives so that every single one of us could vote, not the elite few. I don't care if someone is voting because the candidate has great taste in socks... they would still have as much right as me to vote.

I didn't watch the video because I've heard all that. There are so very many reasons I can't stand Obama & Biden so it wouldn't influcence my vote at all. I think there is a lot more than just his Muslim father that concerns me about him.

Crystalina replied:
I understand what she means. She didn't mean an IQ test. Wouldn't you want to know as much about the candidate you vote for before you vote for them? The facts on both sides? I care NOT who anyone votes for but I do believe that you should know all the facts on the men/women we put into office. There are WAY too many people who vote because their "friends" say this or that or because they hear this rumor or that. They can't get passed what they hear and the political ads they see. Get into the nitty-gritty and research the candidates up until the time you vote.

I agree with what someone else said about Palin. The day after her big speech there were so many people who were pumping sunshine up her rear-end and they didn't even know who she was 24 hours earlier. How in the heck does that work? Because she gave a great speech? I'm not a Rep. and I agree the woman kicked butt in that speech but even if I were on the fence I would research her before I would give her/ them my vote.


BTW, when I say "you" I don't mean "you" just all the "yous" in general.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: Before Palin came on board I was going to vote straight party, so how do I factor into this? Am I ignorant b/c I didn't want to vote for a specific candidate and just the party b/c I'm republican and stand by what I believe in?

As far as Palin goes, remember that there are those of us who like her as much as you dislike her. There are those of us who agree with her, just as much as you disagree with her. Same goes for Obama. I'm sure Obama supporters can't imagine anyone not voting for him or thinking otherwise, when there are those wondering how anyone could vote for him. It's not an issue of ignorance. It's an issue of preference. The mudslinging on the television and internet will not stop until this election is over, but it can stop on here.

Don't assume that just b/c we like Palin, that we didn't do our research. If I liked pretty words and great speeches I would have been on the Obama band wagon a long time ago. That can be said for any politician in this day and age. I believe in the same things she believes in. Simple as that.

Crystalina replied:
I don't think you understood anything that I said. I've said time and again that people should vote for who they want to. I don't care if it's McCain or Obama. I'm just saying know the facts first. If you say you know about your candidate then what I've said does not apply to you.

In my yard right now I have a McCain sign and an Obama sign. DH is for McCain and that's who he's voting for. He has also researched it. If I were not for people voting for McCain then I would win and the sign would not be in my yard because I'm the one home more then he is. I'm not going to lie and say we don't have our little political ahem...discussions but he knows what he wants and I'm 100% behind him voting for who he wants to.

I would never ever say people should vote like I do. I'm simply saying if you don't like Obama because of what he stands for then don't vote for him. But don't hold certain things against him like his name (which he can't help) and because he's Muslim because that is totally false. If you don't like what he stands for then don't vote for him. It's as easy as that.

Crystalina replied:
His mother - an agnostic - met an Indonesian man in Berkely and married him. They then moved to Indonesia and his mother enrolled him in a public school that was mostly Muslim,(Indonesia is predominately Muslim) though she was not religious, she wanted Barack to have the moral and ethic education that religious schools teach. She also insisted that he study the Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths to get a well-rounded education in ethics and morals.

When he got back to the United States and eventually settled in Chicago, he began attending Christian church and was eventually baptized - by choice - into the Christian religion.

This is all in his book, The Audacity of Hope.

PrairieMom replied: aaww man... this thread is going to get locked.

I agree with Crystal, I don't car WHO you like. just like them based on their record, or what they stand for, the candidate that best represents what you believe is best for you personally.

I just don't want someone voting for the Candidate that is going to run our country, be responsible for our economy, send MY child into battle, make legislation regarding my family, my body, and what ever, based on attack adds that skew the truth, and imply things that aren't so to make things appear to be the way they aren't. On either side.

I totally respect the opinions of every one here and am not attacking anyone for their individual beliefs, thoughts, or feelings. I actually enjoy learning from all of you. So, I really hope no feelings are getting hurt here.

redchief replied: I'm not voting for Obama. I just wanted to say that before I literally lambasted the ultra-conservative nut-bag that concocted that horrible film. What kind of country would survive any amount of time if half the population (more or less depending on the poll of the week) needed such mindless drivel in order to make a decision on a leader? I think this is the greatest country in the world (nothing personal my Canadian friends), and it's the people and their differences and similarities somehow working together to make a government that works (most of the time) that makes it great. In other countries the differences we see referenced in the replies here would end in violence, but that usually doesn't happen here. Why? I think it's because despite our differences we all agree that our methods of solving disagreement, that is, the power of the people to decide enmasse how things will be in this time, are so much better than the physical fighting that our human history is so well known for.

Does that mean we are incapable of defending ourselves when the need arises? Obviously it does not, but at least we have representatives that speak for us collectively when the governors decide the time is right to take action. Does it mean that what we have is perfect? Of course it can't be perfect either because it comes from an imperfect and perpetually disagreeing country. It does mean, however, that each of our voices is heard by those that make the rules we have to live by. Even those that believe their vote means nothing should take some solace in that. Let's face it, as a conservative, I'm firmly entrenched in the minority pack because NJ nearly always leans left. But I believe that what I think matters, and I believe strongly that our government listens (eventually) to us all.

What I'm saying is that we are collectively better than the author of that twisted and ugly film. We do not need fear mongering to make our decisions. I would hope that even those who make their decisions based upon how a person looks would see the evil in such a film. There are similar ultra-left wing smear campaigns, and they deserve as much stage time (that is - zero). I am voting on the platform of the candidate and how it relates to the way I want to be governed, not on a fear of what I think the other may or may not do, because I don't think an un-American could ever become a major party candidate for president. Despite the fact that I disagree with the liberal agenda, they are still as American as I, and I trust would never allow such a thing to happen within their own ranks. If they would, we are lost before the election is ever held.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Crystal I wasn't referring to anything you said specifically. That's why I didn't quote you.

FWIW, I did understand what you were saying in your post.

Calimama replied:
No, that's not what I said/meant/implied.

I'm sure you probably know at least a little about your candidates beliefs and yours fall right alongside with them.. that's why you chose that party. However when a person picks a candidate by who has the cutest kids, prettiest wife, or because their favorite celebrity is backing them, *IMO* that is ignorance.

Again, when I made the comment about testing I wasn't being 100% serious. I know how great our country is for allowing everyone to have a say, and I know how hard men and women work everyday to give us that freedom. I'm not seriously suggesting taking that away from anyone. I just wish people would go into the decision educated. But I wish for a lot of things and they don't all come true.

I don't mean for this to go OT so if it did sorry, I just want people to understand what I meant. On the internet that's not always the easiest thing.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Really? Do you think people actually do this? I'm curious if you know someone personally who has done this. Other than in high school b/c that's what this sounds like to me. These are the types of thoughts that journalists want to put in your head by their remarks of "beauty queen, handsome husband......" I certainly don't believe anyone on this board would make an uneducated vote...no matter who they vote for.

ETA: I did see where you said the girl wouldn't vote for Obama b/c he's a Muslim. I apologize.

Calimama replied:
I think you'd be surprised. I know 3 people personally who vote based on silly things like that and will admit it laughing. Not everyone takes voting seriously.


My comments earlier were NOT about people on this board, just in general. I thought I made that clear as well. So I'm sorry if anyone felt like that.

ETA: That smiley looks so fake but it's not meant to be.

Maddie&EthansMom replied: I think I need to step.away.from.the.board.

I'm sorry for reading too much into what you guys were saying. I should know not to take it personally. I just have had so many "ignorant, idiot republican" comments come my way lately. Some directed straight at me from my neighbor, no less. So, sorry I'm a little jumpy!

Calimama replied:
I don't think you took it too personally, I didn't make it as clear as I should have especially since it's the internet. I'm just glad you asked me to clarify instead of thinking I'm some horrible, mean person.

Oh and you should make a fence out of Republican signs to block out your neighbor.

Maddie&EthansMom replied:
Now that's a good idea!! If it were up to my husband, we would cover her fence in republican signs. I chose to take the high road and not feed into her crap, after getting two very offensive emails.

PrairieMom replied:
I do. Last election I talked to a girl who wouldn't vote for Kerry because he was a "horse face" and I have talked to lots of people who say they won't vote for so and so because they can't stand to hear their voice. and those people that would vote for hillary just because she was a woman.

so back to that electoral college thing, I don't mind my vote being canceled out by someone voting for something they believe in, but if I am making informed decisions based on what I believe in my heart is right, then it frustrates me to be canceled out by someone who won't vote for a "horse face"

Crystalina replied:
It's funny you should ask this because it was just shortly after hearing that Oprah was backing Obama that I made a poll on here asking if a celebrity backing a person would help with your vote and you would be surprised how many people on this board voted yes to that. I'm not good into digging for old posts but I'm sure it's still here for all to see.

Believe me, as I saw the results the word 'REALLY' popped into my head also. So to answer your "Really" I would have to say most certainly.

jcc64 replied:

Tara--BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! I almost spit out my drink when I read that! It'd be even funnier if it wasn't true.
Ita about the electoral college, let's dump it!

grandma replied:
I believe thousands of die hard Oprah fans would do just about anything she suggested. Anytime she mentions a product or book, the stores can't keep up with the demand. I don't know if these are shut-ins or what, but they follow her every word. So I'm sure she's insured Obama, who knows how many, votes he may have otherwise not have.

PrairieMom replied:
DH calls her "Queen of the Mommies"
and when he seems me watching her, he walks around the house going "oohhhh-prahhh...ooohhhh-prahhhh"

grandma replied:
Honest, I didn't mean you gals were shut-ins Queen of mommies is much better.

My2Beauties replied: Aimee, just so you know I also know people who don't vote for certain people because of things they've read on the internet and because of the dumbest reasons. I have a friend who got an e-mail about Obama's plane not having the American Flag on it or something and she said they made him a terrorist so she can't see herself voting for him and she believed the swearing in thing too about him being sworn in with the Koran when he was sworn in with the bible. I also know people not voting for him because he's black, plain and simple It's this type of ignorance that holds America back. I also know people voting for him only because he's black so it goes both ways Sad huh?

cameragirl21 replied: Aimee, I don't think it's right for anyone to say ignorant, idiot republican because we all have different opinions on issues.
My outlook is that if you don't like Obama because you disagree with his policies on the environment, foreign policy, healthcare, the economy, etc then fine. But enough with the Barack Hussein nonsense, that just feeds into people's paranoia.
I have gotten emails from my clients stating that Muslims plan to take over America and that Obama is the first step in their master plan and all I can do is when I read these things.

Crystalina replied: Yes and that's such nonsense about no flag on his plane as well. His original plane went out of commission and the plane he used temporarily did not have a flag on it but it was not his plane. His new plane has the flag in just about the exact same spot as McCain's plane has it's flag.

The Truth


I know that nobody on here really brought this up (except as an example) but with any of these "Smears" all it takes is a bit of internet searching to find out the truth. Granted, not everything you find will be truth but you can pretty much figure out what is truth and what isn't.

lisar replied: well this got blown out of proportion didnt it.

Just to add thought, at school the other night we got on this coversation and there were 2 black guys sitting across from me, said they were voting for Obama just because he was black. I told them to do all of america a favor and stay home that day, that voting based on that one reason wasnt worth voting. We had to write a report after that on what issues are important to us and why when it comes to choosing a president. I mean seriously though these kids are in college. I didnt get to read their reports thought, but the teacher read mine to the class because I had views on both side, not just one.

Crystalina replied:
I know. That's sad.

Bamamom replied: How come yall get into all the fun discussions when I'm away from my computer for a few hours






I personally would vote for Barney the purple dinosaur before I would vote for a Democrat because I just can't get over the abortion issue. For me that is THE ISSUE. Sorry - maybe not the best thing but I'm just being honest. Bash away

Calimama replied:
OT but Miabella would thank you, she's obsessed with him.

punkeemunkee'smom replied: To those who seem to be assuming that some of us will not vote for Obama just because of his name or possible Muslim ties- I don't believe that any of us stated those were our only reasons....They are not mine for sure. I have read Dreams of my Father and I found several statements of concern to me in that book. I also do not agree with his policy(ies) on Iraq, Health care,education, immigration,abortion,ETC... It has nothing to do with him being black I wish that people would get off that issue as a seeming slam to those of us not enlightened enough to vote for the guy

Danalana replied:
The same reason Palin's unwed pregnant teenage daughter keeps being brought into it. Cheap shots...it's what it's all about in politics.

Crystalina replied:
His being black has not been the real issue in this thread. Just as you would wish that people "get off the issue" I'm sure some would say stop throwing it out there. The main points (in this thread) have been mostly the rumors about him. It's no rumor he's black. As for his name...I don't think you brought it up but someone did say they could not get past "Hussein" being his name so any reference to that was not directed towards you but yes it was brought up the same with his "Muslim ties". It was brought up in here.

IF you do not agree with his policies then by all means (of course) you should not vote for him. That's just common sense.

P.S. Come to think of it his being black may have been brought up as a reason some of America is not voting for him and that is fact but to me that is no different then not voting for McCain d/t his age (although I think his health SHOULD be taken into consideration.).

Crystalina replied:
I think that is just stupid. She has a pg teen daughter, so what. It happens everyday.

What does get me though is the fact that she turned down funds in Alaska for unwed teen mothers. It is all well and good that she supports her daughter but not all daughters are so lucky.

Fact

jcc64 replied: Anyone who thinks Obama' race is not a determining factor should read this, which just came off of the AP today:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080921/ap_on_...l_obama_race_14
Apparently, we're not nearly as evolved on racial issues as we'd like to think we are.

I don't think anyone here suggested that all people who are not voting for Obama are unenlightened on the important issues. I believe the sentiment being expressed was a real disgust for people who vote for superficial or just plain lies, such as the horse face woman, or the flag plane or the Koran swearing in ceremony, or because they won't let go of the lies concerning his religion.
It is incredibly frustrating, with our economy on the verge of collapse, that people choose to focus on such ridiculous things rather than genuine policy differences. Any time spent discussing flag pins or all that other nonsense is time taken away from things that are really going to affect all of us at this very critical moment. If your support for your candidate is based on anything other than what was just mentioned above, then the comments on this thread were not directed at you.

redchief replied:
Jeanne, you and I need to start another thread or something.

I find I'm agreeing with you way too much for my own comfort lately.

jcc64 replied:

Life as we know it as ceased to exist!

luvmykids replied: Here is the story that was on msn this morning http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26803840

I think this election could go a long way in making race a bigger issue than it already is in our country.....I think it will be assumed that more people who won't vote for him for worthy reasons did so simply because of race when it isn't the case. I do agree that racism still has a very long way to go, but this election puts the issue in the limelight and gives some people reason to fodder it.

Crystalina replied: If it's not racism it will be sexism. It not sexism then ageism.

There will always be someone who thinks they are superior, and their ca-ca doesn't stink, to look down their noses on someone else. It happens all the time and will never end as long as people like that walk this earth and (unfortunately) suck up air that good people can use. How anyone can think they are better then anyone else is beyond me. Black, white, yellow, red, male, female (or in between for that matter), gay lesbian or straight.....there will always be someone looking down their nose at them....who call themselves Christian (<----that's the part that really gets me ). God made all people and I believe he never makes mistakes.

Stepping down now but yes, you are right. People will vote with that ignorance and they have that right.

jcc64 replied: It's interesting, because from my perspective, I see race as the big white elephant in the room. The press has largely ignored it, Obama himself avoids it like a ten foot pole, not even mentioning the historic anniversary of MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech during the first nomination acceptance speech by a person of color at the convention, which I found odd. He clearly does not want to be defined by his race.
However, the point of that link I posted is that in an election as close as this, racism will absolutely play a pivotal role. If you read the article closely, the racist accusations were not directed at Republicans, but at Democrats who are not supporting Obama. Personally, with Bush and his policies as unpopular as they now are, the disastrously expensive war in Iraq, the economy in a shambles largely as a result of deregulation of Wall St (historically associated with Republican policy),and the GOP's lukewarm embrace of its own candidate until Palin energized the conservative base, I would think this election would be a blow-out for the Democrats. The fact that it's so close organically leads to speculation about race. It's a very legitimate thing to wonder about, and anyone who thinks it's not a factor for a LOT of people is kidding himself, imo. Just look at how this thread started, if you think race is not a factor.

Crystalina replied:
I do think race is a factor but I was meaning in this thread. It was more about rumors. (If I'm who you were talking about ).

There are just as many Dems that are not voting d/t race. They, however, are cowards because they are trying to find "other" reasons to not vote for him....like using rumors and really wanting to believe them even though there has been much evidence proving them lies. Many of the Hillary supporters are doing this (I'm speaking only of the ones I know IRL). They don't want to be labeled a racist so they try to find other things to justify why they aren't voting for him. Now there are the legit Hillary supporters who just honestly don't agree with him but there are many who are hiding behind McCain.

Kentuckychick replied:
Yeah... I was totally hoping they'd keep the unwed pregnant teenaged daughter thing out of this whole election... but that was not to be.

Of course it was totally not to be when Palin herself toted that very daughter and her (I'm sure pretty mortified) fiance (who was to be, in the republican's own words -- given his privacy) up onto the stage at the Republican National convention and paraded them for all the world to see.

I can just see it now -- to the press -- "Hello! This is my knocked up teenage daughter and her "we're trying to give him his privacy" boyfried... now spend the next several months of their lives beating their mistakes repeatedly against that invisible dead horse over there. Go ahead... I'll wait."


Don't get me wrong, I think their families should be left out of it too... but she's the one to blame for their total lack of privacy right now.

luvmykids replied:
I guess that's kind of the point I was after, that many folks assume if a Dem isn't supporting Obama, it MUST be due to racism. I think thats an incorrect assumption, I know it's hard to imagine those who formerly pulled for Hillary doing a complete flip flop to now support McCain, but a large number of those people were only pulling for her because they are Dems and never backed Obama. Now that they still don't, they're classified incorrectly as racists.

jcc64 replied: I am so tired of Palin's family drama that I hesitate to bring this up, but I have to point out why I believe her dd's unwanted pg garnered so much unwanted attention. There is a perception, which is not unwarranted imo, that many social policies of the Republican platform directly relate to this girls' experience, including, but not limited to abstinence-only sex education and abortion. Palin's dd is very fortunate to have a family that has the willingness and financial ability to support her untimely pg, but that is not the case for so many young girls, and Palin's extreme views on abortion offer no remedies or allowances for these girls, including those whose pgs are the result of rape or incest, which really blows my mind, tbh. I think it's admirable that Palin walks the walk within her own family, but that doesn't mean we should all be subjected to her own militant vision of morality. If abortion was such a clear cut issue, we wouldn't all still be fighting over it after all these years. Polls consistently show that the majority of this country is still firmly pro-choice, and Palin's views are simply out of step with the mainstream. Politicians are elected to represent the interests of the majority, at least in theory.
Politics is dirty, and I'm sorry this poor girl is going through such a difficult time in the public eye. But the discussion that spins out of her situation IS pertinent to the election.Roe v Wade is hanging on by a thread. The next president will determine the next supreme court nominee, which could have far-reaching consequences for the availability of abortion in this country. Are we not allowed to discuss anything related to unwanted pregnancy simply b/c Palin's dd happens to be in the middle of one?

jcc64 replied:

Yeah, it is, especially since Sarah Palin is diametrically opposed to just about everything Hilary stands for. Which is why one has to consider something intangible like racism as a possible explanation.

Kentuckychick replied:
That was very well said

I'm not voting for McCain and Palin for a number of different reasons (political reasons) but I'll be honest when I say that hearing Palin stand up and say -- in a political context regarding her daughter -- that she would not have allowed her daughter to have an abortion even if she had been raped, was appauling to me.

Not because that is her personal belief (I have nothing against that)... but because she dared to put herself in the shoes of the women who HAVE been in that situation and HAVE had to make the choice when she herself has not. Frankly, how dare she.

I would love to sit here and say that my beliefs would never, ever, ever allow me to have an abortion -- even if I were raped -- even if my life were in danger... but I'm not going to do it. I'm not in that position, I've never been in that position and I hope to never be in that position, and I certainly don't pretend to know how I would feel or what I would ultimately decide to do, if I were.

luvmykids replied: IIRC, Palin isn't for abstinence only, she just thinks it's an approach that should be included. Same with her views on creationism.....she hasn't said her goal is to rewrite the textbooks, only that it's another option.

Crystalina replied:
She wants to have creationism taught right along side evolution and I do not agree with that. If my children were being taught creationism and evolution at the same time I would not have a problem with it but there are too many other religions mixed up in our public schools that that just isn't fair. I believe in both evolution and creationism (a whole other thread) but there are families out there that are firm believers creationism never happened. Now there are those believers that say evolution never happened but there are many more scientific facts supporting evolution then there is creationism (if you were to believe one over the other). The only facts on creationism are in our Bible and not everyone goes by our Bible. We are, after all, the great melting pot.

Crystalina replied:
DH is one who was 100% Hillary and has now changed to McCain. His reason is not race but he does not think that Obama has the experience it will take to run the country.

I say out with the old and in with the new.

luvmykids replied:
That's the usual and inevitable "other side of the coin"....you can't ever make everyone happy. Some people aren't happy that only evolution is taught, some wouldn't be happy if both were taught, etc....which is very OT but my point was only that she isn't trying to take evolution out of the equation and the reason I even mentioned it is because of the abstinence only belief, that she is for it when in fact she believes it should be an option but there is all kinds of hullabaloo that she is going to try to remove all manner of sex ed.

I'm sure I'm the only one who sees the connection in me saying what I did....it makes sense in my head

redchief replied: Finally some debating points worthy of my time! I knew I could draw some out...

On the Republican agenda regarding appropriate instruction in the area of reproduction:

It was stated that the Republican platform on sex ed was abstinence only education. This isn't true, though the GOP does favor greater emphasis on abstinence as the only 100% effective method of preventing pregnancy and the spread of STD's. They further assert that deciding what methods of contraception are right and should be taught to children is not the schools' responsibility, but that of the parents. Many of today's sexual education programs are a slap in the face to religious and moral teachings as exist in this country's families. Further, referrals to clinics for abortion counseling intrude on the rights of families to make these decisions. The GOP would allow public schools to inform students of their legal rights as regards abortion and the use of their bodies, but would strongly caution teenagers that abstaining from sex is the acceptable standard of behavior. Is it realistic for us to expect our kids to refrain from having intercourse before marriage? No, but it's not realistic for us to think that they won't experiment with drugs and alcohol either. Not doing drugs and alcohol are what we expect our children to do, and that's what we teach them. We would be appalled if the government said, "It's OK for you to go out and get loaded, just be careful and don't drive if you do. Of course you don't have to tell your parents you're going to that party either."

I don't relinquish my parental rights to teach my children what is expected of them religiously and morally to anyone, including the schools. That there may be a social need for moral and sexual education I do not doubt, but I don't approve the shotgun approach. One of the few areas of government that I think can be efficient and appropriate (even though it is not) is the area of social work. Responsible parents should be able to teach their kids in the areas of religion and morals without the interjection of the government.

Oddly enough, Obama and I agree on these points. He too believes that much of the problems evident in the country's youth can't be blamed on the schools, nor can the schools be expected to resolve moral issues. Kids need parents that care and teach as well as good schools. As the child of a single mother, Obama knows first-hand the hurt and difficulties inherent in not having a stable home life. He admits that the best thing that happened in his young life was moving in with his grandparents.


On Palin and her Pro-Life stance:

Sarah Palin's stand on abortion was called "extreme." I don't find the protection of human life to ever be extreme. She does have strong opinions on the sanctity of human life as do all true practicing Roman Catholics. Perhaps that makes all Catholics extremist. It makes me laugh to think that I may be labeled an extremist because I believe that all human beings have a right to live regardless of their ages or abilities to voice objection.

In fairness, Palin was pressed on the rape issue and abortion as it may regard her daughter. She didn't volunteer that answer. The interviewer pressed her on her view regarding her own family. (For the record, this interview occurred before her daughter became pg.) The interviewer went on to ask what she would have done if Roe v. Wade were overturned and Palin stated that she would respect the wishes of the state in referendum on the issue. She does state that if a mother's life is in danger in pregnancy, then and only then, would abortion be a viable option. I don't see this as an extreme view. I do see it as a very moral view, though.

Obama on the other hand hasn't even made up his mind when life begins, but he has no problems voting pro-abortion despite this ignorance. Obama received 100% ratings on the NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

Edited to correct my own ignorance. Sarah Palin is a non-denominational protestant. She is not Catholic.

Crystalina replied:


Well, I hear people say that she will stop women from having abortions and her whole creationism in schools thing and I think that will happen about as fast as Obama taking everyone's handguns. If I were interested in her I would not not vote for her d/t those issues. I just don't like them. I think a woman should make her own choice and I'm speaking for my daughter and her daughters. Just as I think people should be able to carry concealed weapons after all the background checks have checked out. Neither one of those issues will ever pass I'm sure. There are way too many barriers.

I know I went OT.

Crystalina replied:
I know he did not answer the question when asked but jumped right into the abortion thing but it may have been one of those things that no matter what answer he gave someone would have an issue with it. I really wish he would have answered it though because d/t his NOT answering that one little question DH and I have argued many a night. Why did he not answer the darn question???? I am 100% pro-choice but when I am asked that question I also have to try to pull an answer out and I have yet to do that. I'm not sure when life begins in my own head. Is it after conception? After the embryo becomes a fetus? Anything after that I have no doubt is life but I struggle between those two and I'm not afraid to say it. And not to turn this into yet another topic and change in the thread I do believe people can struggle with that answer/question. DH has a hard time understanding that and I cannot stick up for Obama and say he is one who struggles. He could have just been trying to dodge a bullet.

jcc64 replied: Hey Monica, what does IIRC mean????

grandma replied: IIRC - If I recall correctly...

cameragirl21 replied: IIRC means if I recall correctly.
Not long ago, we talked here about whether or not the decision made was Bristol's, in other words, was it she that made the choice and if Sarah Palin said she would not allow her daughter to have an abortion even if she was raped then it's pretty obvious whose choice or lack thereof this was. That said, I may not agree with Sarah Palin's dictating her daughter on something this important but that is none of my business and not my problem.
I just don't want Sarah Palin making big decisions for me thinking she knows best which is why I won't be voting for her ticket.
Incidentally, Ed, not trying to pick a fight with you at all but didn't you say sometime back that you are so tired of politicians making laws that are meant to "protect you from yourself" or something to that effect? Why doesn't this issue apply? Why is it that politicians whose moral, spiritual and ethical views may be 180 degrees from my own think that they can make decisions that are for my own good or meant to ensure my morals are in the right place?
Scientists have determined that life begins at birth and while I realize that not everyone favors science as a basis for ethical decisions, for those of us who do have a great respect for science, why should we be bound by someone else's ethics that are completely unfounded by any scientific findings or religious ones for that matter because plenty of abortions were being had in Jesus' day and long before that and if Jesus or any prophets before him had any opinions on the subject, good or bad, they didn't make them known.
Having said that, I know this is a dangerous topic and I'm trying to watch my step but I really feel this is a personal decision, much like my decision to stop eating meat and should not be dictated by politicians who may or may not be personally affected by these sorts of issues. Furthermore, making abortion illegal is NOT going to stop it from happening, it just will happen in back alleys with little regard for women's health so why not just stick to the whole if you don't like abortion don't have one and if you think meat is murder don't eat it argument and let people decide their own morals?

Bamamom replied: often.

Bamamom replied:
We are so going OT here but I had to share this story which Dr. William Lile shared with me. You can check out his website at prolifedoc.org.

In a Florida hospital a few years ago a woman who was 24 weeks pg went into premature labor. She was carrying faternal twins. One of the twins was born and then the OB was able to stop her labor. They decided the best thing to do was to put her on bedrest and try to let the second baby stay in for as long as possible. The first baby was taken to the NICU.

By Florida law the woman could have checked herself out of the hospital and gone to an abortion clinic and aborted the second baby. However if she had walked down the hall to the NICU and shot her son she would have faced murder charges. Two babies concieved on the same day at the same time - because one existed outside the womb it had all the rights that the rest of us have while the unborn brother had none.

So just when did scientist make the decision that life begins at birth? I think many, many, many scientists and doctors would disagree with your statement.

cameragirl21 replied: Rhonda, we are treading on very dangerous territory here but it comes down to this--do you believe a cell in the body is the same as a born baby and if so, what makes a cell the same as a baby? Is a cell in my liver tissue the same as a baby? Nowadays, any cell of your body can be grown into a baby in a science lab so does a cell in my liver tissue equate to a baby?
Btw, I'm sure this convo can get us both in trouble so I'm only responding to your post and will happily let it go at anyone's request. But you asked so I answered.

jcc64 replied: My bad for bringing up the abortion thing. Can that discussion be held elsewhere, b/c we all know where that one's gonna wind up.
In direct response to the op, I just came across this in today's NY Times, it's a quick read and really wraps up this whole discussion nicely, imo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/opinion/...&exprod=myyahoo
Imo, we're not nearly as 'evolved' as we'd like to think we are...

luvmykids replied:
I couldn't agree more, which is why I don't get all the ruckus.

PrairieMom replied:
That is the question that will probably never be answered, and the reason that the topic gets so hot for people. I am sure that you will never be able to get everyone to agree on when precisely life begins.

PrairieMom replied:
Your liver cell will not grow into a living being separate from your self. I don't think the two can really be equated.
we aren't talking here about eggs fertilized in a lab, thats a completely different thing. I don't know the specifice about how they do it, but you would still need a female egg and male sperm to make a baby, even with a liver cell.